|
Replies: 166
| visibility 1
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
I want people to be honest here...
Feb 22, 2018, 11:36 AM
|
|
I know the purpose and context of the 2nd Amendment is controversial, and I don't intend to argue that. For argument's sake here, let's just say that the purpose of the amendment is indeed to facilitate the citizens' defense against an oppressive government.
I've read a couple of people say they do have the AR-15, or a similar style weapon. And they will say that if the government comes knockin' they will be ready.
When I read that, I think..."Come on." Really? You purchased that weapon to defend yourself against the government? I just doubt people are going into gun shows thinking "Now, what do I need to defend against the military?". Are you not buying such a weapon primarily for a recreational purpose?
I'd like for anyone who owns such a weapon, or would like to, to honestly answer this. Pretend that no one in the universe has a problem with you owning the weapon, so you don't have to defend owning it. Why did you or would you buy it?
|
|
|
|
 |
Lot o points [155674]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65735
Joined: 5/6/13
|
An alternative question....
Feb 22, 2018, 11:39 AM
|
|
if they show no propensity to doing harm with it, why would I or anyone else care?
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
Again, pretend there is no need to defend it.
Feb 22, 2018, 11:39 AM
|
|
Remember, no one in the universe thinks it's bad that you have it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [155674]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65735
Joined: 5/6/13
|
I'm asking a serious question and I'm not defending it.
Feb 22, 2018, 11:41 AM
|
|
I really don't know why I would ever care why they bought it. I don't want one. I don't want trampoline either but I don't spend much time wondering why someone would buy one.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
OK. I was asking people who have one or would consider
Feb 22, 2018, 11:43 AM
|
|
getting one.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [155674]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65735
Joined: 5/6/13
|
Understood.......and I'm asking you in return
Feb 22, 2018, 11:46 AM
|
|
why you care?
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
Just curious.
Feb 22, 2018, 11:48 AM
|
|
I am completely ignorant on this subject and would like to learn more.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [155674]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65735
Joined: 5/6/13
|
Ok, then I can at least help fill your well of curiosity.
Feb 22, 2018, 11:49 AM
|
|
I own a Honda Generator because it's nice to have when power goes out, it's really quiet, and it's reliable.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [54758]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 52802
Joined: 10/1/03
|
you know who showed no propensity to doing harm
Feb 22, 2018, 11:43 AM
[ in reply to An alternative question.... ] |
|
this guy
that's right.
Hollywood's own, Michael Douglas.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [155674]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65735
Joined: 5/6/13
|
Falling Down, and The Game.
Feb 22, 2018, 11:47 AM
|
|
Two of MD's greatest flicks that 75% of the populous has never seen. Point to you good sir.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [54758]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 52802
Joined: 10/1/03
|
The Game is one of my favorite movies
Feb 22, 2018, 11:56 AM
|
|
Also, the only movie I've ever gone to a theater (The Astro) to see by myself
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [83006]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 80122
Joined: 11/29/99
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [83006]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 80122
Joined: 11/29/99
|
HeII, make bazookas legal then, but I'm thinking there
Feb 22, 2018, 1:03 PM
[ in reply to An alternative question.... ] |
|
has to be a .10 limit to alcohol in your system.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [15492]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 18413
Joined: 12/10/14
|
Re: An alternative question....
Feb 22, 2018, 5:09 PM
[ in reply to An alternative question.... ] |
|
if they show no propensity to doing harm with it, why would I or anyone else care?
Although that seems like a fair question I think it is inherently misleading. You could ask the same question of people who own cruise missiles. I mean if they don't seem to want to harm people, what's the problem.
I think a more fair question is how much weapon is too much weapon to be available on the open market in our society. Right or wrong we can't ignore the idiots who are in the market and anything available to the public will also be available to them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [48814]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 38796
Joined: 12/31/97
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [7026]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 15682
Joined: 10/10/02
|
I can answer it easily.
Feb 22, 2018, 11:45 AM
|
|
Because I want to.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [11626]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9788
Joined: 5/17/02
|
I am an AR-15 owner
Feb 22, 2018, 11:47 AM
|
|
I own it essentially because I can. This is America, where we have the 2nd Amendment and the right to own firearms. It's used to target shoot. I don't even hunt. It's fun.
In reality, it's not all that great a rifle. There are many others that can inflict more damage but aren't the 'weapon' of choice of the crazy cowards who shoot up schools. An AK-47 is a much more damaging rifle with a much larger round. The mini-14 with the same round is better as well, IMHO. The .223 AR-15 is barely a varmint gun. Maybe coyotes. But no game larger than that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [73569]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 78044
Joined: 11/30/98
|
you are clearly a nutjob crazy lunatic and probably hick
Feb 22, 2018, 11:52 AM
|
|
redneck.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [47680]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 21041
Joined: 12/22/98
|
MAGA!***
Feb 22, 2018, 12:09 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [11626]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9788
Joined: 5/17/02
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [79400]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 63266
Joined: 10/30/05
|
Since I rarely shoot any more, it's primarily for personal
Feb 22, 2018, 11:51 AM
|
|
protection. Just last week, a group of four masked men attempted to kick in the front doors of multiple houses in my parents neighborhood. Thankfully the people had alarms and it scared them off, but it certainly put it in the back of my mind that my 5 shot revolver(which is the only gun I keep readily available these days) might not cut it. It's easy to live in the moment with a false sense of security, but things can change rapidly, so for me it's a small price to pay for additional security.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [155674]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65735
Joined: 5/6/13
|
wait, they still live in Dove Tree?***
Feb 22, 2018, 11:54 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [79400]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 63266
Joined: 10/30/05
|
Nope, moved a couple of years ago
Feb 22, 2018, 11:59 AM
|
|
But there were a couple of houses in Dove Tree that got hit routinely. I know that two story house on the right at the first entrance used to get robbed every other year or so growing up.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [155674]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65735
Joined: 5/6/13
|
Have you been by there lately? It's horrible what they've
Feb 22, 2018, 12:01 PM
|
|
done. They've taken so many trees out that if you're at one end of the lake, you can look up towards the other end now and see and hear the cars going by on Roper Mountain Rd. Ruined one of the little hidden gems of the area.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [79400]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 63266
Joined: 10/30/05
|
Rode through there not too long ago
Feb 22, 2018, 12:07 PM
|
|
They're Tom Winkopping it and packing in as much housing as possible in that area. They fern gully massacred that whole area at Roper Mtn and Riley Smith.
Of course, no thought whatsoever has gone into traffic congestion. Garlington Rd and Roper Mtn. are going to end up having to be 6 lanes. Sucks for the dumbazz that built that huge white house in Huntington.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [97676]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 64817
Joined: 7/13/02
|
I think Abe Lincoln said it best
Feb 22, 2018, 11:53 AM
|
|
Government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the Earth. - Abraham Lincoln
I think when you add in there "and scared shitless of the people", he may be wrong.
On a more technical note, the seizure of arms from citizens would constitute the seizure of property, and as such the government would be required to provide just compensation for the firearm. If the government "comes knockin'" to confiscate your property without a check for the full market value, absolutely this will happen. Even in eminent domain cases, the government is required to provide just compensation.
So yes, if they come take your property without compensation, there will be bloodshed and it will no longer be the government Abe Lincoln described. This is also why people go crazy buying guns when they are about to be outlawed. Once you purchase it, it is your property. In 1986 when machine guns were outlawed, they did not confiscate the existing machine guns out there.
Point is there is no scenario where AR-15's will be confiscated, unless the government buys them all. There is a scenario where they are outlawed and no more new ones will ever be made.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
I wasn't really intending to get into confiscation...
Feb 22, 2018, 11:54 AM
|
|
I was more talking about defending oneself against the government in general, not specifically about them confiscating weapons.
But, I do agree that no legally obtained property should ever be confiscated by the government without compensation.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [97676]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 64817
Joined: 7/13/02
|
Defending themselves against what?
Feb 22, 2018, 11:59 AM
|
|
Unless it's confiscation without compensation I see nothing to defend against. At least for now.
Irony is that my college education at Clemson was paid for through imminent domain. My parents had a duplex right next to an SCE&G substation. The utility needed to expand the substation and 4 houses were to be taken. My father held out until the end and threatened a lawsuit. They ended up paying over twice the market value to avoid a legal case.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
Not sure, and that's part of my point, really.
Feb 22, 2018, 12:01 PM
|
|
When people say that they have that weapon to defend themselves against the government, I'm not sure how genuine that is, because I don't see a reason to be threatened by the government.
(The people I read with these sorts of opinions weren't saying it in the context of weapon confiscation, at least as I understood it.)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [97676]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 64817
Joined: 7/13/02
|
And that's in large part because of the 2nd Amendment***
Feb 22, 2018, 12:09 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23418
Joined: 8/16/03
|
I own an AK to protect myself in case law and order breaks
Feb 22, 2018, 11:53 AM
|
|
down. An AK would make a world of difference in that situation.
It happens all over the world, for all of human history. It probably won't happen any time soon here, but it could.
People don't own life insurance because they plan on using it any time soon.
As far as the 2nd Amendment goes, it brings me comfort knowing that the government knows that there are millions of us with very effective weapons. Things change over time. Those who think the present will last for ever are always in the worst shape when things go wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [73569]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 78044
Joined: 11/30/98
|
the Greeks probably thought Greece was gonna be
Feb 22, 2018, 11:55 AM
|
|
the one power in the world forever. Now they can barely buy bread(yes i know, over exagerrating)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [155674]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65735
Joined: 5/6/13
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [7026]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 15682
Joined: 10/10/02
|
Absolutely.
Feb 22, 2018, 11:58 AM
|
|
I pray that I never have to even pull my gun for my protection or that of my family, much less take a life.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [137803]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 63760
Joined: 10/22/00
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23418
Joined: 8/16/03
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [7026]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 15682
Joined: 10/10/02
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [73569]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 78044
Joined: 11/30/98
|
15 yrs ago, Veneuela was looked at by liberals as the beacon
Feb 22, 2018, 11:58 AM
|
|
of socialism. lol. Not they are taking over companies, killing people, people can't even find food.
Yeah, #### happens quick
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [137803]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 63760
Joined: 10/22/00
|
You're painting with an awfully broad brush there.***
Feb 22, 2018, 12:03 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [73569]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 78044
Joined: 11/30/98
|
you mean Venezuela didnt take a huge turn
Feb 22, 2018, 12:12 PM
|
|
in a very fast period of time and is not one of the biggest #### holes in the world?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [137803]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 63760
Joined: 10/22/00
|
No, about liberals looking at Venezuela as a "beacon of
Feb 22, 2018, 12:26 PM
|
|
socialism". Being liberal doesn't mean you want the US to model the Soviet Union. I think most conservatives actually believe that though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [12851]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 15971
Joined: 10/25/02
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80998]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
They are useful in the Walking Dead...
Feb 22, 2018, 11:59 AM
[ in reply to I own an AK to protect myself in case law and order breaks ] |
|
Not saying that to use humor to ridicule your point. I can understand your perspective.
But it is crazy how many huge automatic weapons they come up with when apocalypses come on TV or movies.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23418
Joined: 8/16/03
|
That's one of the reasons I don't watch the show.
Feb 22, 2018, 12:05 PM
|
|
I can buy the whole zombie thing (for the sake of the show) but the use of guns and ammo in that show is so unrealistic it drove me away. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [135674]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 41580
Joined: 8/26/07
|
I have a neighbor that is straight up ready to defend
Feb 22, 2018, 12:00 PM
|
|
his private property against the government. He has a shipping container partially buried in his backyard with gun ports, he has a pistol hanging on the wall behind the door of every room, he has gas masks and body armor. you can't approach his house except one way without climbing over a lot of fencing
He writes computer code from home and makes boo coo money to spend on all this stuff. He also cooks some awesome bbq and is a great guy as long as you don't bring up any of his phobias about the govt.
Youtube is full of people just like him - there is even a category of real estate sales for people who want to live on remote defensible pieces of property.
I asked him if he really thought he could protect himself - his answer - maybe not but I will take a hell of a lot of them with me
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [137803]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 63760
Joined: 10/22/00
|
That would be a really, really weird way
Feb 22, 2018, 12:04 PM
|
|
to go through life.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23418
Joined: 8/16/03
|
No weirder than being on one's phone all day.
Feb 22, 2018, 12:07 PM
|
|
People are different.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [137803]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 63760
Joined: 10/22/00
|
Being terrified of the government overrunning your house
Feb 22, 2018, 12:15 PM
|
|
to the point that you fortify and weaponize it, isn't any different than being on your phone all day? I mean...ok, I guess. One of those is just dumb. The other is deep-rooted psychological paranoia.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23418
Joined: 8/16/03
|
I would argue that they are both equally unhealthy.
Feb 22, 2018, 12:18 PM
|
|
One just seems weirder because it's not as common.
I'm not paranoid, but I would like to own a fortified villa. It just appeals to me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [54758]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 52802
Joined: 10/1/03
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [135674]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 41580
Joined: 8/26/07
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [97676]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 64817
Joined: 7/13/02
|
He will be your best friend in the zombie apocolypse.***
Feb 22, 2018, 12:10 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [12851]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 15971
Joined: 10/25/02
|
Fixed Fortifications are a monument to mans stupidity
Feb 22, 2018, 12:09 PM
[ in reply to I have a neighbor that is straight up ready to defend ] |
|
~ George S Patton
How did that work at Waco?
Gun confiscation will not come as a battalion of Army regulars strolling through the streets. It will come as a swat team showing up at your neighbor's house at 3am. You wont know why.
Are you going to defend your neighbor against the police without knowing why?
Most Americans wont help their neighbor jump start a car in the morning because it may inconvenience them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [135674]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 41580
Joined: 8/26/07
|
He's got a pretty extensive bug out bag
Feb 22, 2018, 12:14 PM
|
|
and I wouldn't be surprised if there is a tunnel escape to the woods behind his house but he hasn't shared with me that secret yet.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23418
Joined: 8/16/03
|
Everyone should have a bug out bag.
Feb 22, 2018, 12:16 PM
|
|
There are plenty of realistic scenarios that having one could make a massive difference.
-Natural Disaster
-Wife kicks you out
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [97676]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 64817
Joined: 7/13/02
|
Pandemic. I've always said if there's ever a pandemic
Feb 22, 2018, 12:23 PM
|
|
I could (somewhat) easily go to our family land in BFE and live there off the land for a while. Plenty of deer, fish, and other things to eat. plenty of guns and ammo. Have a water purifier. Have a generator. Have tents, etc. Could easily live in the woods for a few months totally away from civilization.
Would not like to do it though.
Probably less prepared for the zombie apocalypse where I would have to leave ASAP. Would take a day or two to get set up down there.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23418
Joined: 8/16/03
|
People are way more dangerous than zombies.***
Feb 22, 2018, 12:26 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [54758]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 52802
Joined: 10/1/03
|
this is scientific fact***
Feb 22, 2018, 12:28 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80998]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [97676]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 64817
Joined: 7/13/02
|
Well, I'd be happier living with my family in the woods
Feb 22, 2018, 1:03 PM
|
|
than all being deaded. Heck, I'd like to just go live in the woods a month sometime. I had a cousin that lived out of state. He would come to Jacksonboro when he was in high school to visit his grandfather for summer vacation. He would stay in the house a few days then head off into the woods. A week or two later he would come out, wash up, eat a meal and go back. Think my great uncle said he spend maybe 4-5 days in the house all summer. He went into the woods and came out with no more than he could carry.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [97676]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 64817
Joined: 7/13/02
|
I think if swat teams start confiscating firearms, people
Feb 22, 2018, 12:19 PM
[ in reply to Fixed Fortifications are a monument to mans stupidity ] |
|
will know. Won't take long. But most importantly, they would refuse to breach homes to confiscate firearms. I know more than one SWAT team member who would refuse to do this and quit. And at least one sheriff too. Will never happen.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [12851]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 15971
Joined: 10/25/02
|
never underestimate what a man will do on an empty stomach
Feb 22, 2018, 12:27 PM
|
|
it didnt even take that after Katrina.
but put it in a SHTF scenario. Government will have food and shelter. Their men will have food and shelter.
How many of their ranks will walk away from that over principle?
None walked away during Katrina.
Second example.
What if congress passes a law outlawing some or all guns? will they refuse to disarm the population then?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23418
Joined: 8/16/03
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [135674]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 41580
Joined: 8/26/07
|
there was an old state prison for sale in the WNC mountains
Feb 22, 2018, 12:16 PM
|
|
that I woidl have loved to have
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [17248]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14204
Joined: 12/14/98
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23418
Joined: 8/16/03
|
You could do both. That way you would be able to
Feb 22, 2018, 12:27 PM
|
|
retreat defend yourself against the mob of jealous wh*res that you would create.
I wouldn't want to just sit around in my compound. I want to travel.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [17248]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14204
Joined: 12/14/98
|
Tell him gov’t satellites have him on a watch list & drones
Feb 22, 2018, 12:17 PM
[ in reply to I have a neighbor that is straight up ready to defend ] |
|
Fly over his house many nights. One click from a guy in a secret military compound in Montana and BOOM - a rocket from the drone is launched.
Don’t laugh - it could happen.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [17248]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14204
Joined: 12/14/98
|
Wait get the BBQ recipe first.***
Feb 22, 2018, 12:18 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80998]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [12851]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 15971
Joined: 10/25/02
|
it would be like the end of the Sapranos***
Feb 22, 2018, 1:12 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [135674]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 41580
Joined: 8/26/07
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [12851]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 15971
Joined: 10/25/02
|
I dont have a bug out bag, but do have a get home bag
Feb 22, 2018, 12:20 PM
|
|
that stays in my truck all the time.
It has the essentials to survive for 2-3 days if i am stranded in a desolate place. in the winter I augment it with a compression bag with fleece pants, down jacket, gloves, tobogan, boots, socks and fleece blanket.
it can be a pain in the ### to keep up with and it gets in the way with family in and out of the truck.
But I drive 30-40k miles per year and I want to get home.
I cant imagine keeping up with all of that stuff all the time.
I will hook up my camper.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [30190]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 31797
Joined: 9/13/01
|
Never even heard of a "bug out bag"
Feb 22, 2018, 12:23 PM
|
|
I watched the first 10 mins or so of that video. Wonder how often they change up their bags.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [46801]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 30710
Joined: 8/11/15
|
I don't understand the deranged government argument
Feb 22, 2018, 12:30 PM
|
|
You mean my AR is going to protect me against a government with missiles that can go through a stove pipe from 2 miles out?
That's a hell of a gun.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23418
Joined: 8/16/03
|
Lots of people with small arms beat/deter governments with
Feb 22, 2018, 12:39 PM
|
|
nukes, planes and missiles quite frequently throughout history.
Counterinsurgency is more complicated than a Napoleonic Battlefield.
And yes, it is a #### of a gun. So is the AK.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80998]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
There aren't enough "counterinsurgents" to fight a real war
Feb 22, 2018, 12:49 PM
|
|
against our government. They aren't trained, they aren't disciplined, and don't have enough will will to save their xboxes, Iphones, or SUV's.
Just like everyone is a bad ### on the internet, I'd bet half of the jack legs who have spent all their paychecks on ammo, tactical clothing and scary looking guns would cave at the very thought of a civil unrest.
Face it, many of the people who buy these kinds of guns secretly want to start blowing people away en masse like some crazy Walking Dead fantasy scenario, but if somebody started shooting back at them, they'd have trouble running fast enough in the other direction in their soiled pantaloons.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23418
Joined: 8/16/03
|
I think you mean insurgents. Counter-insurgents would be gov
Feb 22, 2018, 12:54 PM
|
|
And your point only makes since in the current situation.
Obviously there is not a remote chance of an insurgency in the US right now, or in the foreseeable future. Everyone is way too happy for that. But if that changes dramatically, and the government's behavior or nature changes dramatically then of course it's possible. Why wouldn't it be?
Can you think of a patch of land on Earth that hasn't seen war in the last 250 years?
Face it, many of the people who buy these kinds of guns secretly want to start blowing people away en masse like some crazy Walking Dead fantasy scenario, but if somebody started shooting back at them, they'd have trouble running fast enough in the other direction in their soiled pantaloons. This is a fantasy that you have in your head. It's just your own stereotype that makes it easy for you to dismiss people you don't agree with.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80998]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
Correct on word choice.
Feb 22, 2018, 12:59 PM
|
|
>>his is a fantasy that you have in your head. It's just your own stereotype that makes it easy for you to dismiss people you don't agree with. <<
No, this is knowing enough people who have said this. No one is buying ammo at 10,000 rounds at a time for "personal protection". They think they are ready to start their own war against civilization like some halfassed pirate, but one return fire shot blowing their kids brains across the room will make them change their mind completely.
I don't think you know enough blustery, FOS rednecks.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23418
Joined: 8/16/03
|
I know there are lots of those people out there.
Feb 22, 2018, 1:03 PM
|
|
But they don't represent a majority of those who own "controversial" weapons or believe in the original purpose of the 2nd Amendment.
I own around 10,000 rounds of different types of ammo myself. But I'm not looking for any wars. Nor am I even predicting one.
I'm from the middle of nowhere in south Georgia. I'm plenty exposed to the type of people you speak of.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80998]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
So how long do you think they would
Feb 22, 2018, 1:06 PM
|
|
1) actually fight against an organized, trained and efficient army (particularly once they encounter return fire and casualties), 2) actually survive fighting against an organized, trained, efficient military?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23418
Joined: 8/16/03
|
Question 1 is the big variable.
Feb 22, 2018, 1:10 PM
|
|
I have no idea. Way too many unknown factors for an unknown hypothetical. But it happens.
2 is easy. Inferior equipped and trained forces win all the time. Insurgency is not purely a military contest. It's about establishing governmental control. "kinetic" operations just a part of the equation.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80998]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
Missiles from miles away from planes you can't see are hard
Feb 22, 2018, 1:21 PM
|
|
to beat.
This ain't George Washington and his militia against the volley firing British. I'm not even sure a US government vs its populace is a good comparison to a politically crippled US army vs the Taliban, ISIS, or Hezbollah.
The US populace is way too soft. I mean... have you been to a Wal-Mart lately?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23418
Joined: 8/16/03
|
So then why do insurgencies win so often?
Feb 22, 2018, 1:26 PM
|
|
Vietnam. Iraq. French Algeria. etc etc etc
You are ignoring precedent. You just need to look into counterinsurgency. Like, just read the forward of a 3 or 4 books on the subject. Think about Vietnam. Think about Iraq.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80998]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
Were they fighting against a government like the US that
Feb 22, 2018, 1:33 PM
|
|
has the capability it has now?
Given a no holds barred war against its own people, A US civil war would be shut down in about 15 minutes.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23418
Joined: 8/16/03
|
Re: Were they fighting against a government like the US that
Feb 22, 2018, 1:36 PM
|
|
Vietnam? We had nukes, and fighter jets and aircraft carriers and napalm and agent orange and tanks and B-52s.
We dropped more bombs in Vietnam than we did in WW2.
They had shoes made from tire rubber. They won.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80998]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
And we couldn't unleash that arsenal due to fear of
Feb 22, 2018, 1:42 PM
|
|
retribution from China and the Soviet Union.
What and who would slow them down in their own country to regain positive control?
Look man, I'll just mark you down on the side of "me and my friends in N Georgia can take on and win a war agsinst the US Government" in an all out war.
Good luck with that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23418
Joined: 8/16/03
|
We unleashed all of it except nukes.
Feb 22, 2018, 1:45 PM
|
|
And we lost.
The government would never try and exterminate its own people. It's a ridiculous premise. The 2nd amendment is intended to be a deterrent. Not a recipe for surviving mass execution by your own government.
The whole argue that modern weapons eliminate the 2nd amendment being a deterrent is completely false and not supported by history. Not even close.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80998]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
The ridiculous premise is to think that 500k people with
Feb 22, 2018, 1:51 PM
|
|
AR-15's are ready to take on the US military and win.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23418
Joined: 8/16/03
|
That's not the premise. It's the fact that it would take
Feb 22, 2018, 1:52 PM
|
|
am action so bloody and destabilizing for the government to disarm or abuse its own people, that it would not make the choice to try.
With no citizen self-defense, the government would have no disincentive to abuse power. THAT's the premise.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80998]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
Well, good luck with your AR against one of these
Feb 22, 2018, 2:01 PM
|
|
The good part is you'll probably never see or hear it coming.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23418
Joined: 8/16/03
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [137803]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 63760
Joined: 10/22/00
|
You're still talking about a war from 50 years ago.
Feb 22, 2018, 1:44 PM
[ in reply to Re: Were they fighting against a government like the US that ] |
|
A determined US government that doesn't care about civilian casualties could eliminate any patch of domestic land it sees fit, from a quarter acre yard, to a backwoods compound, to a city, to a state. And that's just with "dumb" firepower. An unmanned drone could destroy a compound in Montana with 100 government-hating militia men who have been training in hand-to-hand combat for the past decade, in a single strafe. I don't know how this can really even be argued. Your argument seems to hinge on the fact that the government wouldn't do that, without acknowledging that fact that they have the ability to do so if they chose. And up to this point, I agree with you that it's inconceivable that the US government could be capable of such indiscriminate destruction.
But they damn sure could if they were so motivated to do so.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23418
Joined: 8/16/03
|
It would have to care about civilian casualties.
Feb 22, 2018, 1:47 PM
|
|
Do you guys think we have robot soldiers? You guys have a very odd view of how militaries work.
The United States could kill everyone in the world if it wanted to. But that's a completely worthless point in the context of the 2nd amendment.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80998]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
That goes back to another point I made.
Feb 22, 2018, 1:52 PM
|
|
It wouldn't have to kill everyone. Just those that thought they could fight them and win.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23418
Joined: 8/16/03
|
If the government tried to kill 500K people... it would be
Feb 22, 2018, 1:54 PM
|
|
overthrown and those responsible would be put to death.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80998]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
By whom?***
Feb 22, 2018, 1:58 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24694]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 42365
Joined: 7/31/10
|
Citizens 500,001+....***
Feb 24, 2018, 1:47 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [73569]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 78044
Joined: 11/30/98
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80998]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
Our government has been monitoring our telecommunications
Feb 22, 2018, 12:50 PM
|
|
on every level for at least 2 decades.
I'd bet there are some pretty detailed databases on who the real threats would be.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [35541]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14328
Joined: 4/7/17
|
They "knew" about Nick Cruz and didn't nothing dot dot dot***
Feb 22, 2018, 12:51 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80998]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
The SOLOs and Memphis Cat's of the world say they knew, and
Feb 22, 2018, 12:52 PM
|
|
purposely did nothing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23418
Joined: 8/16/03
|
You just dodged the point he made.***
Feb 22, 2018, 12:57 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80998]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
How's that?
Feb 22, 2018, 1:00 PM
|
|
He's right; The FBI was well aware of the guy.
Conspiracy theorists say they let him go, knowing it was going to result in this, just so the government can take away our guns.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23418
Joined: 8/16/03
|
Oh, I didn't realize you agreed with him on the 1st point.
Feb 22, 2018, 1:08 PM
|
|
I thought he was using an example about how government surveillance doesn't always work, and that instead of addressing his point, you switched gears to making fun of conspiracy enthusiasts.
But now it looks like you may have accepted his point, which would invalidate my statement.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [35541]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14328
Joined: 4/7/17
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [35541]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14328
Joined: 4/7/17
|
wasting^***
Feb 22, 2018, 12:59 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24694]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 42365
Joined: 7/31/10
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23418
Joined: 8/16/03
|
Absolutely they would. But if that number grew to 50,000,000
Feb 22, 2018, 12:56 PM
[ in reply to Our government has been monitoring our telecommunications ] |
|
or so, then monitoring insurgents would be less effective. Once an insurgency hits a certain point, there is no longer a pure military option.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80998]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
How many civilian Iraqis did we kill?***
Feb 22, 2018, 1:01 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23418
Joined: 8/16/03
|
How does that help your point?***
Feb 22, 2018, 1:05 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80998]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
"Once an insurgency hits a certain point, there is no longer
Feb 22, 2018, 1:07 PM
|
|
pure military option. "
Sure there is. Kill more people.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23418
Joined: 8/16/03
|
Re: "Once an insurgency hits a certain point, there is no longer
Feb 22, 2018, 1:12 PM
|
|
Uh, and it doesn't work. We lost in Iraq, and it wasn't a pure military operation anyway. We were working with locals to establish a working government that a majority of their people would hopefully like.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80998]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
Didn't work?
Feb 22, 2018, 1:14 PM
|
|
Maybe it stopped working after we left, but I'd say that the surge Obama finally did got it to a point of stabilization. Do you disagree?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23418
Joined: 8/16/03
|
Dude, ISIS? The country fell completely apart.
Feb 22, 2018, 1:18 PM
|
|
We lost. The "surge" (under Bush) worked extremely well and things could have turned out better had we stuck with it, but we eventually lost.
Even had we won, the primary mission wasn't killing people. It was creating a government that the people would prefer over Al Qaeda. The reason we killed people was in an effort to protect that fledgling government. Killing more people doesn't work in modern warfare unless we are talking about total war. And total war is two countries literally trying to exterminate one another.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [12851]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 15971
Joined: 10/25/02
|
police actions inside the country are not governed by
Feb 22, 2018, 1:18 PM
[ in reply to "Once an insurgency hits a certain point, there is no longer ] |
|
Geneva Convention.
No foreign government would step in to stop the US government from exterminating a large % of our population. Why? Because they dont want us to step in when they do it.
But it would not be the US gvt vs the US population. There would be every country in the world sticking their noses and hands in the issue. What would come out of the other side of that conflict would not be what either side thinks or would want. It would be mutually assured destruction on a domestic scale.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23418
Joined: 8/16/03
|
Countries can't exterminate their own people and win.
Feb 22, 2018, 1:23 PM
|
|
There would be no country left. There is so much historical precedence for this. But common sense should kick in too. Would an army agree to start exterminating its own people? That's ridiculous.
This is how armies handle insurgencies...
https://www.hsdl.org/?abstract&did=468442
You can literally read their handbook on it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80998]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
No historical precedence?
Feb 22, 2018, 1:27 PM
|
|
Almost any communist country has a runbook for keeping their people in line.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23418
Joined: 8/16/03
|
Communism literally came about due to governments
Feb 22, 2018, 1:34 PM
|
|
losing wars against forces with inferior weapons.
Mao literally wrote the book on mass insurgency. His thesis that military superiority doesn't matter. Mobilizing the people always wins unless the government provides enough people with what they want out of life.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80998]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
a half billion dead people can't be wrong***
Feb 22, 2018, 1:36 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23418
Joined: 8/16/03
|
OK, so when did USSR experience a mass insurgency?
Feb 22, 2018, 1:41 PM
|
|
The way they handled local resistance was starving people to death (Ukraine) and ethnic cleansing (Calmyks)
But they never had a mainstream, nationwide insurgency to put down. The Russian empire did though, and they lost.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80998]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
Just so I can google all the right numbers you are already
Feb 22, 2018, 1:47 PM
|
|
aware of but are asking me to google, how much of a "mass" are you looking for?
Certainly you are well of the half billion of so people who have died under the name of communism over the years quelling rebellions under Mao, Pol Pot,and Stalin.
So no, I won't be looking those up for you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23418
Joined: 8/16/03
|
LOL, you don't even know the cause of death. So off topic.
Feb 22, 2018, 1:49 PM
|
|
We are talking about the 2nd amendment.
Now you are taking about half a billion deaths of all sorts of causes by communist countries? It's ridiculous an unrelated.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80998]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
The mass killings were to intimidate and stop uprisings
Feb 22, 2018, 1:58 PM
|
|
and attempted take overs, in the goal of keeping the existing government in place.
Isn't this what we were talking about when you said that some rednecks with semi auto .223's could fight off our government who has drones and F-16's?
How is that unrelated?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23418
Joined: 8/16/03
|
Mass killings? Do you even know the cause of death for
Feb 22, 2018, 2:05 PM
|
|
the majority of those people?
Do you think it was in like a battle or something? Are you even familiar with the Great Leap Forward?
And at this point its odd to me how hard it is for you to process something so thoroughly established in military history. I now know that you are aware of the examples of when armies with jets did not defeat armies without them. So why can't you seem to turn the corner with that? Find a way to add that to your thought process. IT HAS HAPPENED LOTS OF TIMES. haha, sheesh.
It's like that episode of Archer when he can't process the fact that the blimp doesn't have hydrogen in it. He keeps freaking out when people light up a cigarette, even though he's been told repeatedly that its helium in the blimp.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80998]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
Are you really still saying that the US government can be
Feb 22, 2018, 2:17 PM
|
|
overthrown by bunch of guys with AR-15's?
Is that still your basic premise?
Honestly, this is growing tiring. Is this how you think you "win" arguments? Talking longer and changing the goal posts doesn't really prove your point. Now you talking about cartoons. Whats next?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23418
Joined: 8/16/03
|
I have explicitly stated my point several times. You have
Feb 22, 2018, 4:15 PM
|
|
repeatedly missed the point.
I will explicitly re-state the point yet again, but I have very little faith this will make a difference as there seems to be some sort of block.
1. The 2nd Amendment is about deterring a government from abusing its power by protecting liberty with physical means.
2. That does not require people with AR's to be able to defeat the government in a (series of) battles.
3. Governments can be overthrown without firing a shot. That is proven by history. But the question you are asking shows that you are missing the point. You are trying to awkwardly cram a square block into a circle hole.
4. Advanced militaries with vastly superior firepower have been defeated multiple times by farmers, workers and regular civilians. You obviously have a flawed perception of warfare if you can't understand how that works.
5. In actual war, one side does not have to destroy the other, or capture the other, or even kill half as many, to meet their objective, or to deny the objective of their opponent. Again, history is absolutely crammed with examples of this.
You are trying to cram all of this into an impossible and ridiculous scenario of the United States Government trying to exterminate its own people in a vacuum. It contributes nothing to the discussion. It's like an odd form of straw man.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80998]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
I'm gonna step out here, you go ahead and argue amongst
Feb 22, 2018, 5:12 PM
|
|
yourself and your meandering points.
It will be hilarious to see you reply to one of your own posts, contradicting what you've said.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [42023]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 38173
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Remember
Feb 22, 2018, 7:18 PM
[ in reply to I don't understand the deranged government argument ] |
|
Blindly support America, our military, and law enforcement! Arm them to the teeth!
But, uh, if the government turns on me... I'm ready! To... uh, take on that military and police force that's armed to the teeth...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [21614]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23418
Joined: 8/16/03
|
Few of us are consistent.
Feb 23, 2018, 10:33 AM
|
|
I say reduce the size and dramatically reduce reach of the military. Have the best weapons, but instead of using them to control the world, use them to deter anyone trying to threaten our way of life.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [83006]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 80122
Joined: 11/29/99
|
People buy those because they have little dlcks.***
Feb 22, 2018, 1:03 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [155674]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65735
Joined: 5/6/13
|
So by that logic,
Feb 22, 2018, 1:04 PM
|
|
We should ban the sale of lifted 3/4 ton pickups?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [83006]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 80122
Joined: 11/29/99
|
And most SUVs. Baster$ds. I can't see over them stuck
Feb 22, 2018, 1:07 PM
|
|
in traffic and I'm 6'5".
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80998]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
I got rid of mine.
Feb 22, 2018, 1:08 PM
[ in reply to So by that logic, ] |
|
It was almost a parody of itself.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [155674]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65735
Joined: 5/6/13
|
I'm thinking about getting a 1500 Denali.
Feb 22, 2018, 1:19 PM
|
|
It's unreal....the 6.2 is a $2600 option new, but it's a $5k difference between the 5.3 and 6.2 on a 1-2 year old model. Talk about a no-brainer of an option when new....
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80998]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
Me too.
Feb 22, 2018, 1:24 PM
|
|
I just bought a new Tundra Platinum, and don't care for it. I should have bought the 6.2 Denali.
If you're buying new, get the big mirrors too. They're $300 more when new, but they are friggin' awesome--not just for towing, but for being in traffic, driving around, anywhere. They're about $1200 to add them later.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [155674]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65735
Joined: 5/6/13
|
Considered the Tundra but it just seems like they're trying
Feb 22, 2018, 1:26 PM
|
|
to charge 2018 money for a 2012 truck. It's not a bad vehicle, but it's just in dire need of a new model.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [79400]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 63266
Joined: 10/30/05
|
You're doing yourself a disservice by not looking at the Ram
Feb 22, 2018, 1:28 PM
|
|
I've driven all of them, and I'll admit being a little bias, but it is the best driving truck on the market. I'm about to roll over 150k miles with no problems whatsoever, just routine maintenance.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [155674]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65735
Joined: 5/6/13
|
Well, there's one....
Feb 22, 2018, 1:32 PM
|
|
person I know who hasn't had problems with a FCA vehicle.
I'm glad it's worked out for you, and it's a nice truck, I'm just not brave enough. I'm scared to death of their stuff. I'd love to get the wife a nice Grand Cherokee Overland or Alfa Stelvio, but not gonna do it either. They'd rule the universe if they could inject Toyota quality into their current lineup, cause they're nice freaking cars otherwise.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [79400]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 63266
Joined: 10/30/05
|
I’ll never own another Jeep in my life probablt
Feb 22, 2018, 1:38 PM
|
|
But for whatever reason the Rams must be built a lot better. The couple of mechanics I use say they rarely see one with problems. I’ve been on the fence about keeping it due to mileage, but it still runs just about as good as it did new.
Getting ready to replace the auto ride in our Yukon....I wouldn’t call GM a bastion of quality either quite frankly. I really like that truck but #### if they didn’t cheap out on a lot of stuff.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [155674]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65735
Joined: 5/6/13
|
nah, I don't think GM's are Toyotas either, but I guess
Feb 22, 2018, 1:39 PM
|
|
I'm just more familiar with them and know what's gonna break. The evil you know is better than the evil you don't know.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [79400]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 63266
Joined: 10/30/05
|
Is the Denali auto ride, or does it use coils in the rear?
Feb 22, 2018, 1:47 PM
|
|
STAY AWAY FROM THE AUTORIDE. Biggest POS ever, and it's like $700 per side to replace one shock.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80998]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
It uses leaf springs in the rear
Feb 22, 2018, 1:49 PM
|
|
magnetic ride shocks in the front with coils.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [79400]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 63266
Joined: 10/30/05
|
Yeah....I understand the Chrysler hate, but if you go drive
Feb 22, 2018, 1:53 PM
|
|
a Ram, the ride improvement will be pretty evident.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [155674]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65735
Joined: 5/6/13
|
No doubt, it's coil springs in the back vs leaf in
Feb 22, 2018, 1:55 PM
|
|
everything else.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [155674]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65735
Joined: 5/6/13
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80998]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
Its like driving an appliance truck.
Feb 22, 2018, 1:31 PM
[ in reply to Considered the Tundra but it just seems like they're trying ] |
|
It was the only truck that had a 6 speed transmission when it came out in 2007. 11 years later, it still is.
And now they have crippled it from leveling it with a bunch radar and safety electronics.
I just don't know how much of a bath I'd take on to get rid of it. It has 810 miles on it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [50635]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 43019
Joined: 12/3/98
|
my wife and i both have one they are fun to shoot
Feb 22, 2018, 1:04 PM
|
|
and many people say i shouldn't be allowed to have them
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [83006]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 80122
Joined: 11/29/99
|
Heck of an argument...doing something with your wife that
Feb 22, 2018, 1:09 PM
|
|
you both enjoy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [54758]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 52802
Joined: 10/1/03
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [10871]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12937
Joined: 4/18/12
|
Re: I want people to be honest here...
Feb 22, 2018, 1:10 PM
|
|
I didn't read this whole thread but I would think when the amendment was written at a time when there wasn't a tremendous amount of difference between civilians and military other than organization. Ball and musket seemed pretty standard...maybe military had cannons? I don't know.
Today, there is NO comparison between civilians and our military. Our military could wipe the floor with any civilian uprising. There would be zero chance of you defending yourself against an all out assault. So it seems pretty comical the notion that any individual could defend themselves against our military. If they want you dead, you'll be deaded.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80998]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
Completely Solid Orange will argue with you over this
Feb 22, 2018, 1:16 PM
|
|
(and pretty much everything else.)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [155674]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65735
Joined: 5/6/13
|
read the whole thread?
Feb 22, 2018, 1:17 PM
[ in reply to Re: I want people to be honest here... ] |
|
Man, you didn't read the OP.
"For argument's sake here, let's just say that the purpose of the amendment is indeed to facilitate the citizens' defense against an oppressive government."
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [10871]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12937
Joined: 4/18/12
|
Re: read the whole thread?
Feb 22, 2018, 1:28 PM
|
|
I don't own an assault rifle so I can't really partake in his question.
I just find it funny that anyone would be able to defend themselves against a military force. A credit to a generation that grew up watching Rambo I guess?
Half the time, deadly force seems to be withheld not because of a shooters weapon, but the fact there are hostages present. If it were just a lone gunman however, there are any number of ways you can be dispatched. How many civilians own one of these?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lot o points [155674]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65735
Joined: 5/6/13
|
I'm not ignoring your point, but we had a debate a couple
Feb 22, 2018, 1:34 PM
|
|
days ago that was about two pages long. Your basic premise is correct but there are a lot of other variables that make it not as cut and dried.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [53]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: read the whole thread?
Feb 23, 2018, 11:40 AM
[ in reply to Re: read the whole thread? ] |
|
1. AR-15s are not assault rifles. Please educate yourseslf.
2. There are 1.4 million soldiers in the US military They have about 4 million pieces of ordinance to utilize with a few billion individual quantities of ammunition (bullets, grenades, rockets, etc)
At the same time, there are over 150,000,000 million gun owners with an estimated 500,000,000 firearms and ammo counts estimated in the trillions.
The total capability of armed US citizens significantly surpasses the amount of weapons and training amassed by the U.S. military. Remember, the guns the average citizens owns are also the same or better quality than those issued to the military. Likewise, citizens have access to all the technology, if not better, than our military has in terms of information and communication.
Add that to the fact that we have struggled for almost 20 years to beat small gangs of terrorists hiding in caves in the middle east using junk, 1950s technology. We have all our drones and special forces and such, yet we struggle to beat them.
When you look at the numbers, the odds are stacked heavily against the U.S. government/military. Add to that fact that servicemen will likely defect or refuse to fight against their friends and family, and it adds to my point.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
The heart of the question...
Feb 22, 2018, 1:40 PM
[ in reply to read the whole thread? ] |
|
was not about whether the 2nd Amendment is for that purpose. The first paragraph of my post was designed to eliminate that issue from the discussion. The question was whether or not that is REALLY why a person would actually buy a weapon like that.
So, to argue that one could not possibly defend oneself against our government is an appropriate response to the question, I think. At least, it would suggest that that motive for buying a weapon is foolish, even if sincere.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [10871]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12937
Joined: 4/18/12
|
Re: The heart of the question...
Feb 22, 2018, 1:52 PM
|
|
I see and yes I would say that'd be a strange reasoning. There may be other reasons for owning one but defending yourself against the government seems a bit unreal to me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [53]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: The heart of the question...
Feb 23, 2018, 11:34 AM
|
|
Government's have killed more people in the past century to satisfy their political motives than anyone or anything else.
In the past century, our own government has engaged in the below illegal actions against the American people and much more that I havent listed:
The American Eugenics Society
The National Recovery Administraton
MKULTRA
Five Eyes and illegal NSA wiretapping
The Fast and Furious Gun Running Scandal
The IRS targeting of political enemies
and more!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [53]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: I want people to be honest here...
Feb 23, 2018, 11:42 AM
[ in reply to Re: I want people to be honest here... ] |
|
See my post below. Armed citizens outnumber the military by 108 to 1 and have more guns.
Its a strategic nightmare trying to plan a war against 150,000,000 guerilla fighters that have more weapons and ammo than you do.
Also, back when the 2A was written, private merchants owned ships with enough cannons to level Charleston. There were Puckle guns, fully automatic machine guns that operated similar to a Gatling gun.
The fact of the matter is, no offense, you have very little understanding of the situation you are commenting on.
You also continue to confuse the AR-15 as an assault rifle, which it is not.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [105468]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65168
Joined: 12/2/02
|
Just be glad Hitlery wasn't elected to continue Obama's
Feb 22, 2018, 1:55 PM
|
|
Gun Control policies, amirite?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [83006]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 80122
Joined: 11/29/99
|
He took everyone's guns away and Trump gave 'em back.***
Feb 22, 2018, 2:05 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [12851]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 15971
Joined: 10/25/02
|
but for the american voter he would have tried
Feb 22, 2018, 4:09 PM
|
|
he knew it was not a winnable proposition.
And he was more interested in getting more people on the government dole ie obamacare.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [105468]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65168
Joined: 12/2/02
|
WE FOUND A BELIEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!***
Feb 23, 2018, 11:13 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [29076]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 15470
Joined: 4/14/11
|
MEGA THREAD: THE RETURN***
Feb 22, 2018, 4:18 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [53]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: I want people to be honest here...
Feb 23, 2018, 11:31 AM
|
|
I use my collection of AR's for hunting, recreation, competition, and self defense.
Its a modular rifle that can be built for multiple applications at a very affordable cost, and provides a comfortable shooting experience for all types of shooters.
Its popular because its the most optimized and economical rifle platform out there today.
And yes, I own one because of the reason you stated: resisting a government entity should that become necessary. That is why the 2nd Amendment was created and it isnt unreasonable to adhere to that reasoning.
And yes, people do go to gun shows to buy tactical equipment for that reason. Again, its why we have a 2nd Amendment...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2429]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 3556
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: I want people to be honest here...
Feb 24, 2018, 2:16 PM
|
|
I bought mine because it drives obummer and other libs bat shii crazy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 166
| visibility 1
|
|
|
50
