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Topic: I gotta laugh when I read articles on our D-Line
Replies: 39   Last Post: Jan 18, 2019 6:52 PM by: partsunknown
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I gotta laugh when I read articles on our D-Line

[4]
Posted: Jan 18, 2019 8:04 AM
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Next year. It is like they all forget we have a 5* KJ Henry that redshirted to bulk up just waiting to fill a spot.Along with a slew of other big time kids all across the front waiting to step up and play. The predicted doom for our D-line is just lazy journalists or maybe just bloggers who are worse than lazy journalists.


Link them if you get a chance... Thanks.***


Posted: Jan 18, 2019 8:07 AM
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This will be the most shocking thing of all next season

[2]
Posted: Jan 18, 2019 8:08 AM
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When we have basically zero drop-off at the D-line. Our ends will be just as good, if not better in pass rush. And Nyles, Xavier, and Jordan are all going to be elite DTs. Xavier moves like no 290+ pounder that I've ever seen.

We too deep.

2019 student level member

Yes our DL will still be good

[5]
Posted: Jan 18, 2019 8:13 AM
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But “basically zero drop-off”? You can’t believe that, right? You mean to tell me a RS-Fr Henry/Mascoll or Foster is an equal replacement to 99? And that Pinckney and Williams are the same level that 2 1st rd NFL DT’s are?

The 2019 DL will be very good, maybe even elite, but the 2018 DL was one of the most dominant of the last decade. Saying there won’t be some drop-off is asinine at best.


Why can't it be just as good?

[6]
Posted: Jan 18, 2019 8:27 AM
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Xavier Thomas was so good as a FRESHMAN that he stole snaps from both Austin and Clelin.

Justin Foster is absolutely going to shock people this year.

Add in Mascoll, Henry, Rudolph... and there's reason to believe that our DEs could actually improve this year.

Nyles is Grady 2.0. Jordan and Xavier have elite explosiveness for defensive tackles. Our DTs won't be any less athletic next year. And they got tons of playing time this year. I'd say that our DTs will take a slight hit just based on experience and the run-stuffing ability of Big Dex.

But if you take a slight drop at DT, and a slight improvement at DE, what is the result?

Maybe it's just orange-colored glasses. Maybe it's all based on believing that Xavier Thomas will become the best DE in Clemson history.

There might be some drop-off. But I certainly wouldn't bet against Venables, Bates, and Hall turning Thomas, Foster, Rudolph, Henry, Mascoll, Jeffries, Williams, Pinckey, Davis, and Kelly into monsters. Add in the versatile freaks coming in this class (Johnson, Reuben, Cash, and Orhorhoro).

Either way, I'm still going to keep believing Dabo. The best is yet to come.

2019 student level member

Re: Why can't it be just as good?

[2]
Posted: Jan 18, 2019 8:36 AM
    Reply

XT for Bryant I’d say is a wash or maybe even a slight net-positive. That’s why I didn’t include him in the original response.

I think the other DE’s you listed are all going to be really good players. But having one of them on the field at a time is not going to even out having Ferrell there.

Pinckney is a very good player as well, but swapping him for Christian or Dex is still a net loss. Same for Williams.

None of this is to say that they won’t play well next year and be a very good unit because I think they will. And BV has earned the benefit of the doubt of fielding a great defense amid turnover at several positions. But making the statement that there will be no drop-off from a historically good DL just isn’t grounded in reality and it’s 1.) somewhat disrespectful to the guys that are leaving here and all they’ve accomplished and 2.) setting the 2019 up for failure due to unrealistic expectations.

I believe we will have a top 10 DL unit in 2019, but that would still be a decent drop-off from the 2018 unit. Saying there will be drop-off but they will still be a really good unit are not mutually exclusive thoughts.


Re: Why can't it be just as good?

[1]
Posted: Jan 18, 2019 9:41 AM
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To answer - because you don’t immediately replace a DL of All-American players, many of whom had multiple years of experience! I am a realist and while the staff knows their talent level is sound, the actual degree of knowledge from plain experience is extremely hard to duplicate.

Think about what somebody knows on their job in their first year as opposed to the fifth and you get the picture. I expect the other element which will be in play will the inexperienced depth behind the starters. By season end Venables will have a quality defense, but unknowns like injuries will also play a part.

Go Tigers ??!!


Re: Why can't it be just as good?

[1]
Posted: Jan 18, 2019 9:54 AM
    Reply

To help clarify gtriple's response. Lets all define drop-off. The medias version is we drop from top 10 to 120's in defense. The posters here saying we will have a drop-off, are more aligned with drop-off as we drop to top 20.


So everybody is probably correct here. Creator of this thread is just saying the medias version is way off.
However you define drop-off, Clemson will have a great defense!!!


Re: Why can't it be just as good?


Posted: Jan 18, 2019 10:17 AM
    Reply

Find me a reputable media member that has said 100+ as a defensive ranking. And gtriple said “basically zero drop-off” and “just as good” which is very different than the point you’re making which I agree with.

This is also probably the 3rd or 4th time in the last 6-7 years where the “I just don’t know how they’re going to replace those guys on defense” is the narrative going into a season so I’m not sure why anyone is surprised it’s happening again.

There’s not a lot of statistical evidence based on BV’s tenure at Clemson to think that the 2019 defense won’t finish inside the top 20.


The worst defense we've had in the last 5 years was the

[1]
Posted: Jan 18, 2019 10:27 AM
    Reply

2015 unit that finished 6th in defensive S&P+ after falling off late in the year. And that unit was only ~4 points worse than our best defense under Venables, the 2014 group.

There's no reason to think we won't be top 10 again next year, but it is unlikely that we will have the #1 defense again next year like we did this year and in 2014. I think it's reasonable to expect our defense to be 3-4 points worse next year. It's also likely our offense will make up for a lot of that.


Agreed


Posted: Jan 18, 2019 10:35 AM
    Reply

While the defense might take a small step back, the offense likely takes a big step forward to where I think our margin of victory will be higher than this season’s.

I don’t expect to be quite as stout against the run but just as good if not better rushing the passer so the likely game scripts will probably dictate that teams are going to have to throw more against us to stay in games which plays into our strengths.

I’d be surprised if we aren’t a top 5 S&P+ defense next year but realistically even if they’re 15-20, the offense will be good enough where it likely won’t matter until we play the most elite competition in the playoff.


Re: Agreed


Posted: Jan 18, 2019 11:04 AM
    Reply

Do you mean Elite like in this past year during the Playoffs? Or do you mean really elite? These are 2 different cases. The Elite defense we just faced weren't all that elite by looking at the score. Now I think we control the clock more this coming year with 4 senior O-lineman and the defense is on the field less. Which makes the opposing offenses struggle to keep up. Statistically I see our defense being better only because our backups will get a lot better and the numbers will go down. This past year almost all of the damage opposing offenses did was against our 3rd and 4th string guys. Those guys will be better as recruiting has gotten better and playing time. The trash time yards are not going to be as easy as in past years making this defense statically better than last year.

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Bama’s Offense was still elite this year


Posted: Jan 18, 2019 11:13 AM
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Nobody has run the ball on us like that. Part of that was scheme and game ###### where we weren’t devoting a lot to stop the run so we didn’t get beat over the top. They still racked up a lot of yardage, we just stopped them from converting in the redzone. Next year we will likely not be as strong against the run as we were this year, but that likely won’t be greatly tested until we go up against really strong offensive lines. The good thing is that our offense has proven they can score on anyone.


Re: Why can't it be just as good?


Posted: Jan 18, 2019 5:16 PM
    Reply

Again back to definitions. I just threw 120 to make a point. When they say drop off in the media what does that mean, where do we fall then? You say drop off, where do you say then?


Re: Why can't it be just as good?


Posted: Jan 18, 2019 5:56 PM
    Reply

My definition of drop-off is top 20 S&P+ which I think is the floor for that unit next season.


Re: Why can't it be just as good?


Posted: Jan 18, 2019 6:52 PM
    Reply

Good pts


Re: Yes our DL will still be good


Posted: Jan 18, 2019 2:39 PM
    Reply

Seems a little harsh BAT13 - I agree with you D-Line won’t be quite as good especially against the run. But the D-line will be faster (and more mistake prone early in the season) with possibly more sacks. And BV will be coaching them up.

And I agree with many who believe Justin Foster could be biggest surprise on team. What I don’t know is what two deep will look like at each D-Line position and who will gain weight this summer and move from DE to DT to support smaller and faster D-Line. Looking forward to seeing XT, KJ, JF, Mascoll and the big boys mix it up next season. Go Tigers!

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Not trying to be harsh

[1]
Posted: Jan 18, 2019 6:04 PM
    Reply

I’m just trying to put into context how bad@ss that DL was last year. I think there’s a lot of talent waiting to play next year but the combination of elite talent and lots of experience is a huge challenge to replace. I’ve tried to make it a point to say that guys like Foster, Williams, Pinckney, Mascoll, etc are going to be great players and have the potential to break out next year. I just think people are underestimating just how good the 5 guys departing were.


The drop off is going to be at DT and in run defense

[2]
Posted: Jan 18, 2019 8:29 AM
    Reply

We are going to be totally fine at DE, but we just lost 2 all-timers at DT (plus their top backup) and we don't have the same level of talent at that position waiting to replace them.


Don't have the same level of talent?


Posted: Jan 18, 2019 8:30 AM
    Reply

Why don't you go tell that to Nyles, Jordan, and Xavier.

2019 student level member

Dex was 5* and the #2 overall recruit. Wilkins was 5* and

[1]
Posted: Jan 18, 2019 8:33 AM
    Reply

#20 overall on Rivals. Both were All-Americans at Clemson and upperclassmen with experience. We don't have that behind them. These guys are talented, but not THAT level. We have THAT level at DE, but not DT. And of course we lose the experience... these guys have to learn.


Re: Dex was 5* and the #2 overall recruit. Wilkins was 5* and

[3]
Posted: Jan 18, 2019 8:39 AM
    Reply

Saying that Christian and Dex are more talented than Pinckney and Williams isn’t a knock on the younger 2 guys it’s just a statement of fact. There are very few DT’s in the country who were on the same level as 42 and 90.


There’s a difference at DT - might be very small. DE a push.***


Posted: Jan 18, 2019 8:50 AM
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Idk about very small


Posted: Jan 18, 2019 8:55 AM
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And who is Ferrell’s equal of the guys that are going to be lining up across from XT next year? Henry, Mascoll, Foster might all become that guy in a year or 2 but they won’t be that next year. Let’s give the Power Rangers the credit they’ve earned here.


Different skills & strengths, hope similar effectiveness.***


Posted: Jan 18, 2019 9:26 AM
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Dex didn't play when we destroyed #1 and #4 74-19***


Posted: Jan 18, 2019 10:40 AM
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2019 orange level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg


True


Posted: Jan 18, 2019 10:50 AM
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The guy that did play the majority of the snaps is also gone. Not sure how that helped.


You gotta remember.....

[4]
Posted: Jan 18, 2019 8:09 AM
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They had the same story line with Big Dex. And the loss of KB. And the loss of DW4 for that matter.

The media is caught up in the old school thinking of a team's success depending on one or 2 superstars. They have never seen anything like what Dabo has built.




And the best is yet to come......

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The media (and coots) have been saying that since the


Posted: Jan 18, 2019 8:25 AM
    Reply

Whitehurst days. "What are y'all gonna do when y'all lose _______??!"

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There's something in these hills.


Re: I gotta laugh when I read articles on our D-Line

[1]
Posted: Jan 18, 2019 8:16 AM
    Reply

As long as we have a top 10 defense—and I have no reason to think we won't—our offense should be able to put up more than enough points to win.


Re: I gotta laugh when I read articles on our D-Line

[1]
Posted: Jan 18, 2019 8:20 AM
    Reply

Even if drop-off from the front 7 is worse than expected, I don’t see this being outside of the top 15 defenses statiscally. Which should give the offense plenty of wiggle room as they will be top 5 next year I believe.


Re: I gotta laugh when I read articles on our D-Line


Posted: Jan 18, 2019 8:27 AM
    Reply

I think we'll still have a very good DL that will look dominant at times. I think they'll be good enough to bully most teams we face, but it'll be interesting to see if they can bully very good OL's the way we have the last few years. I think we'll be more than fine, but my only concern will be the depth. Will the drop off be bigger next year when we rotate guys than it was this year? What happens if we get some injuries?


Re: I gotta laugh when I read articles on our D-Line


Posted: Jan 18, 2019 8:36 AM
    Reply

I look at this way: the experience a lot of the players gained last year, winter conditioning, spring practice, summer conditioning, fall practice, 7+ more months of power hours and coaches Bates and Venables, the Tigers will be just fine!


Re: I gotta laugh when I read articles on our D-Line


Posted: Jan 18, 2019 9:34 AM
    Reply

Every year people wonder the same thing about Bama but then some stud emerges like Quinnen Williams. We’ve recruited well enough for long enough to be in the same boat. Dabo seemed really pumped about our defense in 2019 during the morning after press conference on January 10th.


Re: I gotta laugh when I read articles on our D-Line

[1]
Posted: Jan 18, 2019 10:36 AM
    Reply

There are really 3 things to look at.

Coaching, talent and production.

TB and BV are there, so no change.

As for talent, Clemson loses 2 studs plus a really good player at DT. That's really hard to replace. DE should be doable or even better talent wise.

Now a comparison to 2014/2015:

In 2015 Clemson lost 6 of their top 7 DL in terms of TFL and 7 of their 9 DL who recorded a sack. They returned only 5 sacks and 18.5 TFL.

In 2019 Clemson returns 3 of their top 7 DL in TFL and 4 of their 9 DL who recorded a sack.

Clemson returns 8 sacks and 28 TFL.

Clemson does return a more proven DL than they returned in 2015. And in 2015 Clemson ranked 1st in tackles for loss and 2nd in sacks in the nation.

All these stats show that Clemson could very well have a top 3-5 DL if not the best defensive line in the country even with all the losses.

DE is stacked with XT, Foster, Rudolph, KJ and Mascoll. 2 of those got redshirted I think. Clemson could be better there as there are several potential 1st round talents.
DT there will be a drop-off as we lose 2 monsters and Huggins. But Williams, NP and Kelly will be good to very good. Not sure who the 4th guy is, maybe Davis who looks like a beast.

Overall there should be a drop-off in rushing defense inside but they'll be disruptive and one of the best defensive lines. More proven than the 2015 line coming into the season.

And can anyone point to any DL they would rather have? I don't see many, if any.


Agreed, and if the offense scores


Posted: Jan 18, 2019 1:53 PM
    Reply

like I think they will we will be fine and it will help the defense. Having a drop off at tackle could be offset by scoring a lot of points to some degree as teams will have to pass more to keep up so, run defense might not be as big a problem as normally would be.

2019 purple level member

They just see that we lose 2 five * DTs and replace them


Posted: Jan 18, 2019 11:06 AM
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with lower rated players.


If everyone stays healthy

[2]
Posted: Jan 18, 2019 11:17 AM
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we go back to back next year.

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Eh.. we have as good of a shot as anyone, but I'm


Posted: Jan 18, 2019 1:37 PM
    Reply

certainly not ready to proclaim Bama is dead. If we meet them in the playoff again for a 5th straight year i really think it will be close to 50/50 on who comes out on top.


They've said that for 8 ten win seasons,...


Posted: Jan 18, 2019 2:51 PM
    Reply

five 12 win seasons, 4 conference championships and two national titles. 'They,' have become as predictable as Clemson.


Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®


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