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All-In [43992]
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For those of you disappointed in Clemson basketball:
Mar 15, 2015, 3:11 PM
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How disappointed are you? What are your goals for Clemson basketball? I see so much whining and complaining on here, with statements about how we should be better than we are.
Great! I agree, we should be better. We should expect to be in the NCAA Tournament every year, and be in the top echelon of ACC teams. In order to do that, we must be willing to spend money on our basketball program - even if it means spending less at times on our football program.
I believe that Brownell is a very good coach, with a lot of basketball knowledge. But he is hampered by a lack of support from administration. This results in subpar facilities, which result in significant difficulties recruiting against the rest of the ACC. This is why most of the guys we sign have few, if any, ACC offers aside from Clemson. Brownell is also hampered by pathetic fan interest and support.
The solution is this:
1. Have the Clemson athletic department publicly state that they are 100% committed to our basketball team, and have high goals for the program. These should be specific and measurable.
2. Commit to making our facilities top notch. This means the fan experience in the arena, for sure, but more importantly it means a focus on player amenities. Recruits choose a program based on what it can give them, not how nice the fan sections are.
3. Fan support must improve. Our attendance is horrible. Students especially need to show up and be loud.
4. We must improve our mindset. We need to stop hanging our hat on being a "football school." Some of you are scared to support basketball (financially and with butts in the seats) because you are scared that it will hurt football. It won't. We must stop holding onto our poor basketball history, and decide now that we are ignoring all of that and moving forward.
With these things in place, Brownell will be able to show us what he can do. I believe we will be very pleased with the results we see in recruiting and in wins, but only if we are ready and willing to make the commitment. If we aren't willing to make the commitment, we should stop expecting much from our basketball team.
Why is this so hard to understand?!?
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All-TigerNet [10401]
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Watch the baseball team play and you'll feel better about
Mar 15, 2015, 3:16 PM
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it?
just kidding. sort of.
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CU Medallion [56713]
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as ND scores two more runs with two out.***
Mar 15, 2015, 3:23 PM
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Orange Blooded [2457]
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Re: For those of you disappointed in Clemson basketball:
Mar 15, 2015, 3:26 PM
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Student support was there for Purnell. Brownell and his results killed that. The reason why people showed up for the NIT last year was for once the team didn't quit.
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All-TigerNet [14090]
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Difference between the Purnell era students and Brownell era
Mar 15, 2015, 4:07 PM
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students. While the Purnell era students grew up through the explosion of social media, they weren't quite addicted to it. The students now a days have spent most of their life in the social media era, and living their lives on social media instead of living a real life.
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All-In [30593]
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can i laugh at this?
Mar 15, 2015, 4:09 PM
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i'm laughing so hard at this
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: can i laugh at this?
Mar 15, 2015, 4:13 PM
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It's true. When they released Tumblr, it was all over from there. Now I can't make it 30 minutes without microblogging my favorite Sting quotes.
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All-TigerNet [10563]
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CU Guru [1598]
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All-In [43992]
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Brownell's teams don't quit. They play as hard as any
Mar 15, 2015, 4:54 PM
[ in reply to Re: For those of you disappointed in Clemson basketball: ] |
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Clemson team I have seen. We have had a middle-of-the-pack team for Brownell's tenure, which is far from being a bad team. Why can't students understand that their support will help the team play better? Why can't basketball be a fun social event and a break from studying, and a chance to support your fellow student-athletes?
I think many students have it backwards if they expect the team to be really good before they are willing to support them.
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Orange Blooded [2457]
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Re: Brownell's teams don't quit. They play as hard as any
Mar 15, 2015, 5:42 PM
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2011-12 team: lost to CofC, Coastal, and USC all by 12/4. That killed excitement and NCAA chances. They lost to 4 mid majors that season and turned down the CBI. Teams that love to compete keep playing. Plus everyone knew we would be young the next season, and we threw away a chance to get precious minutes for them.
2012-13: Finished the season losing 7 straight and 10 off 11. They flat out quit. They also got their teeth kicked in by Coastal.
2013-14: For once they fought for an entire season. People showed up for the NIT, because they appreciated that.
2014-15: Losses to Winthrop, Gardner Webb, Rutgers, and a slaughter by USC killed all excitement and NCAA chances by December 19. Finish the season losing 7 of 9 after having an outside chance of the bubble and easily in the NIT. As far as I have seen, this team has made zero indication of wanting to play in the CBI despite needing more playing time.
Maybe a harsh assessment, but it seems like we are about to wrap up 3 out of 4 seasons with a team that has no urge to compete by the end. That rubs off as quitters. Part of the fun for students was camping out. CUSG killed that with the lottery in Purnell's last season. Times have even changed since then though with student attendance for all schools. The style we play is not fun to watch. We go through long droughts. The team seems to play itself out of the NCAA tournament before January. Brownell has not done anything to endear himself to the fanbase. Plus, students see that alums and fans do not come either. We put tickets on sale for $5 every season and cannot sell out. The support isn't there from that group either.
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Head Coach [751]
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Re: Brownell's teams don't quit. They play as hard as any
Mar 15, 2015, 6:14 PM
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Brad, I agree completely with your assessment. The fans view basketball or any sporting event as entertainment. This team over the last several years hasn't been consistent enough to warrant great attendance. Maybe in the next several years CBB will turn it around, since he is ours for the next 2-3 years, I sure hope so!
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Legend [18003]
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More like 3 out of 5 seasons they fought to the end
Mar 15, 2015, 7:37 PM
[ in reply to Re: Brownell's teams don't quit. They play as hard as any ] |
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2010-2011- NCAA Tournament after 4-2 to finish the conference (both losses to UNC and Duke, one of which was OT)
2011-2012- They had a ton of close losses and yet finished 5-3 in conference in the last 8 games.
2012-2013- They quit.
2013-2014- As you said, they fought to the end and made a run in the NIT.
2014-2015- Disappointment, but didn't quit. They just lost confidence in their abilities and lack of leadership hurt down the stretch.
One of Brownell's big issues has been lack of leadership on the court. He had it his first year and with KJ, but the other 3 years he is having to replace his scoring leaders or vocal leaders and that has caused issues when the team faces adversity. The mini run we had this year should have propelled us for the rest of the season, but we couldn't maintain the confidence and players like Roper/Harrison/Hall lost their ability to lead the team.
But I think your assessment is a bit misleading about Brownell's style of play. Watch the first half of the @NCState game and tell me that's not an exciting style of play (or the BC game). The problem has been consistency on offense. Our defense is primed for us to be a top tier team, but until we can increase our offensive efficiency, it makes it seem like we play "ugly" when really it's just "ugly" because the ball isn't going in the basket.
Brad isn't going anywhere for 2 seasons, and I expect to see some marked improvement in those 2 seasons (he's gone if not), and I'm optimistic when the wins start coming because of our improved offense the fans will come back too.
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Orange Blooded [2457]
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Re: More like 3 out of 5 seasons they fought to the end
Mar 15, 2015, 9:29 PM
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It feels like if we want to build, we need to accept the CBI this year. As far as I have seen, we aren't doing that despite having a team that will return 3-4 starters (depends on if you consider Roper a starter) next season. We need experience and we are turning it down.
Maybe the style will pick up with more talent. The irony is pretty strong how Jaron called out the fans and the next home game we have a 14 minute scoring drought. Fans don't want to watch bad basketball like that.
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CU Guru [1404]
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Re: For those of you disappointed in Clemson basketball:
Mar 15, 2015, 7:42 PM
[ in reply to Re: For those of you disappointed in Clemson basketball: ] |
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"For once the team did not quit"?
Seriously?
Let's have you profess more genius and explain that statement with facts and not conjecture and bravado.
Sure had OP had the support. Had from Day 1 right? Clemson students are filling up the football stadium every weekend too right? If not, Dabo and co. Must go BC they are not putting a quality product out there to entertain.
Students are like everyone... Winning brings then and consistent winning retains them.
I support Brownell and think the extension makes sense BC of then plan to upgrade facilities between years 2 & 3 of his new contract. So after year 3 admin can reassess where program is headed with recruiting.
Support the program. Support the coach. Support Clemson. Don't like it then keep on griping but don't watch or show up.
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Orange Blooded [2457]
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Re: For those of you disappointed in Clemson basketball:
Mar 15, 2015, 9:24 PM
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See my post above. If you don't want to compete then we have a problem. I feel like at the end of 2012, 2013, and this year the team just didn't want to play anymore. No one can deny 2013. This year and 2012 we turned down the CBI despite needing work. That is quitting.
I support basketball. My problem is that we are accepting a 7 year potential job when Brownell was hired no one would accept the current state of our team. We failed to capitalize on Purnell's success and now it feels like we are going to stick it out 2 more years then can him. We are wasting time. This is actually the perfect year to dump Brownell. Give the new guy a throw away year in Greenville to start recruiting and hit the ground running in new Littlejohn. I honestly feel if DRad didn't get suckered into a $5,000,000 buyout for a coach with zero leverage, we could make a move is year.
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All-In [30593]
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I see what you are saying... but
Mar 15, 2015, 3:36 PM
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I don't think it's a matter of yearly goals for BB, as much as it is where we are now vs. where we were when he took over.
I like him, and I think he is an excellent in game coach and one of the best I have seen preparations wise. I'm pulling for him to turn it around.
That being said... I think frustrations lie in the fact that he took over a team that had been to 3 straight NCAAT and played for an ACCTC, and here we are 5 years in with only that first year's birth to show for it.
I get it... OP left cupboard bare, etc... but I don't think that's a good enough excuse for where we are now vs. where we were.
That said, I hope he turns it around.
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All-In [43992]
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I'm not trying to make excuses for Brownell.
Mar 15, 2015, 5:01 PM
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I want us to be an NCAA Tournament team every year, and contend for ACC titles. I get angry when our fans say stuff like "We will never consistently compete with UNC and Duke" and "I would be happy making the NCAA Tournament once every 2-3 years." We should desire much more from our basketball team, but I don't think it is fair to do so when support from administration and fans has been so pathetic throughout most of our basketball team's history.
A dip was definitely to be expected for Brownell due to the missed recruiting cycle, just as it was for Dabo due to the same thing when he took over. The difference is that the talent left for Dabo in his second and third year was still much better than it was for Brownell in his second and third year.
I also expected to be better off after Brownell's fifth year than we are now. He clearly needs to bring in more talent, but I think he has been doing that with additions like Blossomgame, Grantham, Holmes, and Hudson. Basketball recruiting is about relationships, and I think it takes longer for an outsider without a reputation as a big time coach like Brownell to make inroads. That is especially true at a school like Clemson with no real basketball tradition and subpar facilities.
Hopefully, with the new facilities and a strong commitment from the administration, we will see continued improvements in recruiting. With better talent, I think Brownell will do great things at Clemson.
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Zealot [868]
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Re: I'm not trying to make excuses for Brownell.
Mar 15, 2015, 6:02 PM
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"A dip was definitely to be expected for Brownell due to the missed recruiting cycle, just as it was for Dabo due to the same thing when he took over. The difference is that the talent left for Dabo in his second and third year was still much better than it was for Brownell in his second and third year."
Wrong. The difference is Dabo went on and started signing stellar recruiting classes, where as Brownell has not.
Dabo took a football program wallowing in mediocrity and is turning it into a powerhouse.
Brownell on the other hand took over a program on the rise.
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CU Guru [1404]
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Re: I'm not trying to make excuses for Brownell.
Mar 15, 2015, 7:46 PM
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Dabo took a football program wallowing in mediocrity and is turning it into a powerhouse.
Brownell on the other hand took over a program on the rise.
So Brad B had it easier than Dabo?
Really? Really?
That makes zero sense when it cones to history, brand, memories, status, and recruiting wins of Clemson. Basketball is 3rd behind Football and Baseball.
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All-Conference [448]
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Re: For those of you disappointed in Clemson basketball:
Mar 15, 2015, 3:52 PM
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I agree with you in part. I lived through the Hatfield years when the program went down, then West was brought in for the fans, the program still did not turn around. It was not until the Athletic Department started putting it money where its mouth is and started improving the facilities at Clemson.
I believe that the same is true for the Basketball Program. Recruits want to see how you are going to get them to the next level and they do look at the facilities. So until we fix that, getting the better recruits will be hard. Now after that the recruits will look and see if the coach is playing style is want they want and what will get them to the next level. Please look at NC State and Herb Sendek. A good coach, but could not get the high recruits because the system he ran. Having same issue at Arizona State
But to put any of this on the fans before the other is taken care of, will not help. If people had not stopped buying season tickets, Hatfield would have been here longer. So the only way the fans can be noticed by the Athletic Department is with their money. To just support a bad product does not help force change, either in the coach or in the facilities.
Is Brownell developing the players to the best of their ability? Are players leaving the program after getting here because they could not measure up, or because of Brownell. Can he recruit? I do not think we will know the answer to any of those questions until the Athletic Department makes a real commitment to the basketball team.
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All-TigerNet [14090]
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This season poor performance had nothing to do with...
Mar 15, 2015, 4:04 PM
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the AD, and I'm highly critical of the AD. This team lacked basic fundamentals. This team did not know how to pass. I'm not a fire Brownell guy, but watching this past season I can't say he is a good coach. He can turn it around next season, but at this point the way the team played I can't call him a good coach. Brownell took over a program that was on the upswing, and making it to the NCAA tournament. We haven't made an NCAA tourney since his first season. The AD didn't give Purnell anymore support than they have Brownell, and Purnell was able to accomplish more with the same attitude from the AD. In the whole scheme of things criticism towards the AD over the lack of effort towards our basketball program, is more than valid. But that doesn't cause a team to lack the ability to know how to pass the ball, one of the most fundamental and earliest thing you learn playing basketball.
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CU Medallion [67693]
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Re: Clemson has basketball? Really??
Mar 15, 2015, 4:58 PM
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Why wasn't I told? 
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110%er [7110]
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I respect your opinion...
Mar 15, 2015, 7:51 PM
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But you lost me when you said "Brownell is a very good coach". His teams, aside from last year's NIT run, have shown a propensity for collapsing down the stretch. This year was a prime example. He didn't have the greatest talent, but a good coach will do SOMETHING with the talent he has. They will improve as a team. His teams collapse. They don't get better.
It's not the AD's fault. It's not the fan's fault. It's the failure of Brownell and his staff to get the job done with his players in practice. There's no other reason for the repeated collapses. So quit rationalizing his failure away. Quit blaming it on other things when the results on the court belie the obvious. Be honest with yourself.
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110%er [6034]
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SMH
Mar 15, 2015, 8:12 PM
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Thankfully you are not in charge of the Clemson Athletic Department.
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110%er [7110]
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And thankfully neither are you.
Mar 15, 2015, 8:41 PM
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Nm
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Legend [15862]
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Well said. Plus Clemson has been battling just stay
Mar 15, 2015, 9:26 PM
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Competitive in a league where our program has been behind others programs for many years. Duke, NC and Virgina and other schools are ahead of CU as a BB program. But we have a very distinct advantage over these schools in football.
If we want to be "All In" for BB the first thing we need to do is tear down LJ and build a facility that will say Clemson is 110% committed to BB. Then we need the fans to be all in.
My question is can we maintain a top football and BB program with the cost to do business as well as ticket prices increasing every year?
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Orange Blooded [2217]
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I like BB but they are rebuilding Littlejohn,thats good
Mar 15, 2015, 9:32 PM
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support, what scares me is the coots incoming class next year,hope we can recruit equally
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Orange Blooded [3728]
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I stopped reading at...
Mar 15, 2015, 10:11 PM
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"I believe that Brownell is a very good coach..."
But, thanks for taking the time to write this opinion.
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Orange Blooded [3728]
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Only 3 more years...that's how I see it...
Mar 15, 2015, 10:13 PM
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...then we can begin anew.
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CU Guru [1746]
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Fan support is a result of Brownells style & results***
Mar 16, 2015, 10:10 AM
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CU Guru [1598]
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What I have not seen on here throughout this debate
Mar 16, 2015, 10:43 AM
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whether to keep Brownell or not is the fact that in two consecutive years, this and last year, the Tigers finished much higher in the conference than predicted by the pre-season experts. This was especially difficult this season without KJ. I'm not ready to fire Brownell just yet.
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Orange Blooded [2457]
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Re: What I have not seen on here throughout this debate
Mar 16, 2015, 7:16 PM
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Exceeding low expectations is hardly an accomplishment.
Also for this season, we finished in a 3-way tie for 9th when we were picked 11th. That is one win over expectations.
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