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Topic: For the “big name” coaching crowd...
Replies: 60   Last Post: Mar 20, 2019 3:30 PM by: Nohelp
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For the “big name” coaching crowd...

[4]
Posted: Mar 19, 2019 10:21 AM
    Reply

First, I’ll be the one to admit that after the NCSU loss, I also felt like it was time for change, and perhaps still do.

But if you think we can just go find a “big name” coach, who’s hands aren’t dirty, then please tell us all who.

Otherwise, stop making asinine statements. If you thought we should have gotten “big name” coaches for football, baseball and women’s basketball...hows that logic working out for you.

Men’s basketball is a cesspool right now. Don’t kid yourself. A big name coach might win, but my bet is that you’ll be among the first to be angry when we get caught cheating.

Just stop for a second and think. That’s all I’m asking.

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The excuses for Clemson Basketball can be really creative.***

[4]
Posted: Mar 19, 2019 10:32 AM
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Re: The excuses for Clemson Basketball can be really creative.***

[1]
Posted: Mar 19, 2019 11:46 AM
    Reply

How is what I said an excuse?

More importantly, how is what you said a legitimate response?

At least I’m “creative”...you’ve apparently resorted to short, non-productive complaining.

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Who cares if he has a “big name” ?!?!?!

[6]
Posted: Mar 19, 2019 10:36 AM
    Reply

Most people just want better recruiting and coaching regardless of how many letters he has in his name.

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Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together.


Most of the people who post here are delusional

[6]
Posted: Mar 19, 2019 10:47 AM
    Reply

when it comes to our basketball program.

Some want us to get a big name coach, completely ignoring the fact that our reputation as a football school hurts us. Potential coaches know that we are next to last in ACC basketball spending and have lackluster fan support for basketball. Most big name coaches won't even consider us unless we are willing to pay a salary among the upper echelon of the ACC and commit more funding and resources for basketball.

Others want to get a young up-and-coming mid-major coach, believing that if he's persuasive he will magically start recruiting top players to Clemson. They also believe that success at a mid-major is predictive of success at Clemson, even though the data shows that it isn't.

In either instance, they believe that simply hiring someone else will result in success, and that because Clemson is such a magical place, said coach will love it and want to stay forever.

These fans believe that we are underachieving to be a middle of the pack ACC team, despite being at the bottom of the ACC in basketball spending, fan support, and basketball history. I honestly don't understand it.

2019 white level member

Re: Most of the people who post here are delusional

[3]
Posted: Mar 19, 2019 11:05 AM
    Reply

Look at all the top flight basketball players from the state of South Carolina who have played out of state. This has been happening for years. NO Clemson coach has ever been able to sign the star players from this state. Ever. So it’s NOT the coach who isn’t recruiting well it’s the program that has not developed to the point where these kids want to play for their instate university. UNC has a number of SC kids in just the last few years who were superstars in the ACC. They have Woods now who is a good one. Wake Forest has had several SC kids play well for them over the years. I’m not going to mention a kid from Spartanburg! We haven’t been able to bring in the sons of former players because of our basketball situation NOT because of who the coach is. Things need to improve at Clemson and getting another coach will not be the right change.


Re: Most of the people who post here are delusional


Posted: Mar 19, 2019 1:22 PM
    Reply

I was following you until you said Seventh Woods is "a good one." He's a bust and not an ACC caliber guard...much less being someone worthy of the hype he had coming out of high school.


I don't know if I would consider Woods a bust, he has had injuries


Posted: Mar 19, 2019 2:47 PM
    Reply

and is the backup point guard to one of the best freshmen in the league.

2019 white level member

At this point, people who think we don't need a

[1]
Posted: Mar 19, 2019 11:56 AM
    Reply

coaching change are delusional. And yes, it's not that simple, but it is an absolute necessity and must be part of the solution if we are to turn things around. There is no reason Clemson can't be consistently better in basketball than they have historically been. It will take an "all in" commitment from the university in terms of money, PR, facilities, and support on every level, and I don't know if it will happen, but I would hate to see us keep doing what we've been doing and expect anything better than what we've been getting. . . that amounts to just giving up, and I would hope Clemson's better than that.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


Alford...

[1]
Posted: Mar 19, 2019 11:59 AM
    Reply

his what I said. Hire Steve Alford now. He is available.

DRad talk to agent and get this going and then you and Brad find away to part ways. Best for both parties.

Alford has had only one bad start this year with a lot of injuries. Also played a murdious schedule.

We hire Alford we have a top 10-15 class next year like Tom Crean is having with UGA...

Read more: https://www.tigernet.com/forum/thread/Its-time-that-we-go-the-established-bball-coach-route-1892812?start=15&tstart=0#ixzz5idMBjEGA


Re: Alford...

[1]
Posted: Mar 19, 2019 12:03 PM
    Reply

Yeah, how about no...

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/steve-alford-lived-world-apparently-include-ucla/story?id=60123908

https://www.crimsonquarry.com/2017/3/18/14966490/steve-alfords-pierre-pierce-iowa-sexual-assault

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2013/04/11/ucla-steve-alford-sexual-assault-pierce-iowa-2002/2074995/


As I said, find me a “big name” coach who’s hands aren’t dirty.

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Re: Alford...

[1]
Posted: Mar 19, 2019 12:09 PM
    Reply

Why would Alford even give us the time of day? He could not cut it at one of the biggest programs with as MUCH resources as our football program without the close rivals either. But then again, UCLA cares about Basketball so maybe taking the Clemson gig where fans won't show up or care would be both welcoming and quiet.

We would never have a top 10-15 recruiting class. Alford could not coach defensively, would constantly lose the locker room, so how fast do you think he would Shyatt it up?

BB is a better coach than Alford.


Re: At this point, people who think we don't need a

[2]
Posted: Mar 19, 2019 12:08 PM
    Reply

Why can’t we get that all in committment now from administration?

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Go Tigers! Once A Tiger Always A Tiger


I agree, we do need to make changes.

[1]
Posted: Mar 19, 2019 12:18 PM
    Reply

And in my opinion, step 1 is to provide better support for Brownell. If we're doing all we can to support him, and he isn't as successful as we would like, then it will be time to get a new coach. Otherwise, we're just expecting another coach to come in and contend with the same issues Brownell has, and that isn't likely to work either.

2019 white level member

Re: I agree, we do need to make changes.


Posted: Mar 19, 2019 12:20 PM
    Reply

Doing the same thing and expecting a different result...something, something insanity.

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Who is advocating for doing the same thing?

[1]
Posted: Mar 19, 2019 12:27 PM
    Reply

I think most everyone here wants changes made, we just don't all agree as to what needs to be changed.

2019 white level member

Re: Who is advocating for doing the same thing?

[3]
Posted: Mar 19, 2019 12:28 PM
    Reply

I’m on your side.

My point being that just hiring another coach for the sake of doing it and sticking him in the same environment is the definition of insanity.

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Yes, for sure!***

[2]
Posted: Mar 19, 2019 12:32 PM
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2019 white level member

Let's do both. Let's get a coach in her who knows how to


Posted: Mar 19, 2019 12:26 PM
    Reply

get the job done and lets get behind him. Why not take the necessary steps now. That's good managment.

After 9 years, we know enough about the current staff to know they aren't going to take full advantage of the level of resources provided. Why allocate any more resources on these guys? That's not good management.

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Brownell isn't taking full advantage of the resources

[1]
Posted: Mar 19, 2019 12:31 PM
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provided? LOL, that's hilarious!

You mean the second lowest basketball budget in the ACC, the lack of much needed facility upgrades until year 7 of his tenure, the lack of approval of much needed assistant coaches/support staff additions until year 8 of his tenure, and the fan support which is among the worst in the ACC?

To be at or near the bottom in support from basketball from an administrative and fan support level, one would expect that our team would finish at the bottom of the conference in recruiting and on-court success. But that isn't the case, and in fact, we finish middle of the pack in both.

Believing that Brownell has underachieved, given the above, is a huge part of the problem among our fans.

2019 white level member

That's what I thought. I notice you didn't address the idea

[1]
Posted: Mar 19, 2019 1:55 PM
    Reply

of solving both problems at once instead of only one of them. But, that is what defenders of the status quo do. Repeatedly. As though their allegiance is to the coach and not the program.

The idea that after 9 years we don't know what Brownell can do and that if we would simply throw more resources at him, we would see a dramatic improvement in his performance is a huge part of the problem. It's also not good management practice. We know what we have. We don't need more information.

As someone who has followed Clemson basketball since the 60s, I don't understand this relentless defense of the current state of Clemson Basketball. It's just perpetuating the mediocrity.

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I'm not opposed to a new head coach.


Posted: Mar 19, 2019 2:04 PM
    Reply

But in order to be supportive of it, I would need to know that Clemson is going to drastically change the way it views and supports basketball. Based on our history, I'm not optimistic we would do anything differently.

I disagree that "we know what we have" with Brownell. It's easy to say he's been here 9 years, and leave it at that, but the first six of those we had outdated facilities, and one of those years we played in Greenville and had to practice in Jervey. To know what he is capable of with the current level of support, we can look at the last 2-3 seasons, keeping in mind that we haven't yet felt the full impact of the facility and staff enhancements as it affects recruiting.

It's not like we are floundering at the bottom of the conference. We barely missed the NCAA Tournament two years ago, as well as this year, and made the Sweet 16 last year. One more recruit here, or even a few missed shots that go our way, would've dramatically changed the way fans are viewing 2016-2017 and 2018-2019 seasons.

2019 white level member

This was the season that he was building towards with 4


Posted: Mar 19, 2019 2:28 PM
    Reply

redshirt seniors in his 9th year. This was the year that DRad and BRad were counting on to show the positive direction of the program. He fell flat. Attendance is off. Fans are becoming ambivalent. After 9 years, you run the risk of losing a portion of your fan base forever.

Rick Barnes and Oliver Purnell got it done with what you consider our sorry fan base and our crappy facilities. The problem wasn't that Barnes made us good and left or that Purnell made us good and left, the problem was who we hired after each of them left.

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Re: This was the season that he was building towards with 4


Posted: Mar 19, 2019 2:45 PM
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“After 9 years, you run the risk of losing a portion of your fan base forever.”

All due respect, this is more wrong than anything I may have ever seen on this site.

Clemson fans, the real ones that fill on-campus stadiums and arenas, will show. I don’t care if it’s been a day or a decade...you start winning, and you pack the house.

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The fact that both had some success and then left


Posted: Mar 19, 2019 4:04 PM
    Reply

is a huge issue. The fact that we couldn't keep two of our recently successful coaches says a lot about how poor the environment for basketball has been at Clemson.

The coaches who succeeded Barnes and Purnell did not walk into the wonderful situation you and others think they did. All you have to do is look at year two of Shyatt's and Brownell's tenures to see that:

In 1999-2000, Larry Shyatt's second year at Clemson, we were 10-20 overall, 4-12 in the ACC. The year before, Shyatt's first, we were 20-15 and finished as the NIT runner-up.

In 2011-2012, Brownell's second year at Clemson, we were 16-15 overall, 8-8 in the ACC. The year before, in his first year at Clemson, we were 22-12 and made the NCAA Tournament.

Either both coaches completely forgot how to coach after their first year, or the talent dropoff was significant. In year two of a coach's tenure at a school, year 2's roster only reflects one year of recruiting so the roster is almost entirely due to the former coach still.

Don't buy into the myth that Barnes and Purnell built successful programs and left their successors with great situations. Both coaches had a few good seasons, but did not recruit well consistently and bailed before the program started to decline.

2019 white level member

What kind of support does he need that he's not


Posted: Mar 19, 2019 12:27 PM
    Reply

getting? Where can we spend money to give him more support?

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A few areas of need are obvious:

[2]
Posted: Mar 19, 2019 12:36 PM
    Reply

Higher budget for assistant coach salaries
Additional staff for social media marketing
Additional staff for recruiting help (analyzing film, help with official visits, etc.).

We also need a long-range plan on facilities. How can we enhance what we currently have? What is needed to help set the standard for top notch facilities?

2019 white level member

do we need them? Yes. Do we need to give them to BB?


Posted: Mar 19, 2019 12:58 PM
    Reply

Here is where you lose me (and I have supported BB for years)...

If we are going to do those things more than we are now, let's make that commitment to a new guy, new regime, new excitement, etc...

people are people, and there is a human element of bringing in new excitement

2019 orange level member


So we are going to provide those things to a new guy

[1]
Posted: Mar 19, 2019 1:21 PM
    Reply

who probably has no experience being a head coach at the high major level, but not to the guy who has worked his tail off as our head coach for the past nine years, who has done a lot of good things and represented our university well?

That doesn't make sense to me.

I don't disagree that an infusion of excitement could be good, but if that is what it takes to get our fans more involved, the enthusiasm isn't likely to last.

2019 white level member

Re: So we are going to provide those things to a new guy


Posted: Mar 19, 2019 1:33 PM
    Reply

And this is where I scratch my head.

Lets say we go out and spend the $$$ on the next program ... will it equate to success? Lets say we go out and get Matta, spend the money on his assistants, and he remain in good health. Where do we finish in ACC play? 3rd? 4th? Sometimes make a run. Does losing the ACC ever become unacceptable for us? To the point of Duke/UNC/Louisville level of commitment. Do we invest in our facilities. We need about $100million on top of what we done to truly compete.

Does this fill Littlejohn or give us a national fanbase?

And would you do this at the expense of the Football team. Cut assistant coaches salaries? The 15 million needed to pursue that has to come from somewhere and we know the soccer team doesn't have that money.

Listen, I want every sport to be as good as it can be. Basketball is one of those sports where being mid-table is the realistic spot for us, and maybe if we don't become unrealistic we can build on that. Rick Barnes made us mid-table and that was "new heights" for us. And just because we are 9-9 does not mean we will improve by grabbing a new person. We could easily slide the other direction. See: Pitt.

Finally, I wonder what would happen if you put Brad in an upper-level to elite program. Heck, put him in Georgetown or UCONN (culture shock) and see if the recruiting changes.


Dixon left Pitt to go "home"... they made a bad hire


Posted: Mar 19, 2019 4:07 PM
    Reply

it happens

At some point, the excuses of fans, money, facilities, have to stop. One would think it would after 9 years.

2019 orange level member


They aren't excuses, they are reality.


Posted: Mar 19, 2019 4:11 PM
    Reply

What needs to stop is our "fans" blaming the coach for our struggles as a program, when the support needed to built a consistent winner clearly isn't there.

2019 white level member

I have been a Brad supporter for a long time... but at some


Posted: Mar 19, 2019 4:15 PM
    Reply

point you have to look at the facts.

If he had made more than 2 NCAAT's in his tenure, maybe I get it. We only have 3 NIT's, and a total of 4 years where there was no postseason play. Maybe if that wasn't the case.

Could more money be thrown at the program? Sure. But to continue this dialogue that he just needs "more" after 9 years is delusional at best.

2019 orange level member


Why do you feel he should have done better?


Posted: Mar 19, 2019 4:22 PM
    Reply

As I posted in another comment, his average ACC finish over his nine years at Clemson is 7.44. There have been some ups and down for sure, but on the whole, we are finishing around 7th-8th in the ACC. For a program that has only made 12 NCAAs in its history, to be a bubble team on average is not bad at all. We spend less than all but one ACC team on basketball.

I just don't understand how, based on the above facts, we should view Brownell's tenure as a disappointment or as underachieving. Relative to our history and current level of support, we are overachieving.

If you are simply ready for a change, that's fine. But to act like he should've done more with the limited support he has gotten seems ridiculous to me.

2019 white level member

that is simply not true.... He has feasted on the bottom of


Posted: Mar 19, 2019 4:28 PM
    Reply

the ACC. The numbers show that, as I have posted.

Look at our history. Oliver Purnell was in the postseason 6 of 7 years. Cliff Ellis was in the postseason 8 of 10 years. BB has been 5 of 9 years, and this includes the 1st year with OP's "bare cupboard".

That is worse than the previous two coaches.

2019 orange level member


Your stat is extremely misleading.


Posted: Mar 19, 2019 5:40 PM
    Reply

It was much easier to get into the NIT up until very recently. In the past, all you needed was a .500 or better record. Now, that usually isn’t nearly good enough for the NIT.

2019 white level member

wow***


Posted: Mar 19, 2019 1:39 PM
    Reply



2019 orange level member


Brad is doing a poor job marketing and building his program.

[2]
Posted: Mar 19, 2019 2:16 PM
    Reply

He's just not good at it. Appreciate the effort, but realize his limitations and move on. He has been handsomely rewarded over the last 9 years. Why do we owe him more than that? We may need the things you mention, but Brad could do a much better job of marketing his program with whatever resources he has right now. That's why we are where we are.

The AD isn't going to give him all of these additional resources because he hasn't proven he can maximize what he has. If the coach could create some positive momentum, the additional revenues would justify it.

Quite frankly, after 9 years, it should be obvious.

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Re: Brad is doing a poor job marketing and building his program.

[1]
Posted: Mar 19, 2019 3:13 PM
    Reply

This is fair. Charisma goes a long way and I’ll agree that isn’t happening.

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How has Brad proven that he can't maximize the resources he


Posted: Mar 19, 2019 4:10 PM
    Reply

has been given? You act like he's been given all of these advantages and failed to capitalize.

What are these advantages he has relative to the rest of the ACC?

We are near the bottom of the conference in terms of basketball spending, but much higher than that in terms of on-court results. How is that not maximizing what he has been given?!

2019 white level member

I don't believe Brownell will ever be able to recruit


Posted: Mar 19, 2019 2:16 PM
    Reply

well enough at Clemson, regardless of what kind of support or help he gets. I could be proven wrong (it almost happened once or twice before ;) ), but his name and reputation is inextricably tied to his record of mediocrity. That may not be fair, it may not be his fault, but I think there is a certain perception that he just can't shake.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


I'm not saying you're wrong, but there is a bit of

[2]
Posted: Mar 19, 2019 12:03 PM
    Reply

a chicken and egg thing with Clemson basketball.

If Clemson devoted more financial resources to Brad's program, will he be more successful and attendance will go up as a result? Or would a new coach bring excitement to the program, attendance goes up as a result and Clemson will start to devote more resources? Or will a potential new coach demand more resources and get it?

Looking at average attendance at home, in Purnell's last 4 seasons at Clemson:
2006-2007 - 7,356
2007-2008 - 8,609
2008-2009 - 8,476
2009-2010 - 9,465

CBB's first season average attendance was 8,289. Since then his highest season was 2012-2013 - 7,887.

Since the renovations to LJC:
2016-2017 - 7,262
2017-2018 - 7,743

So what needs to come first, investment, coach, attendance or on-court performance?

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"IDIOT POSTER OF THE MONTH SO FAR...GWP-- You have won IPM Award for your failure to completely comprehend a clear post & then choose to attack someone who points out your ignorance. While you are not yet in the same No Class Catagory as deRoberts, ClemTiger117 & Tigerdug23, you are getting closer to the Sewer Dwellers." - coachmac


I think we are getting a good return on our investment


Posted: Mar 19, 2019 12:40 PM
    Reply

right now. We should be at or near the bottom of the ACC in terms of conference record, based on our low funding for basketball. But we aren't, we are middle of the pack. That tells me that the current staff is doing a lot with what they have. Why not provide additional resources to see what they can do with it? If they are more successful, great! And if not, those resources will be in place to hopefully attract a good replacement and give him more of what he will need to be successful.

2019 white level member

Re: I think we are getting a good return on our investment


Posted: Mar 19, 2019 12:44 PM
    Reply

I love you Judge but BB cannot win a close game. He has done a good job otherwise but we need a winner imo. Now it may backfire and us end up worse but we can either keep losing close games over and over again or atleast try to get a coach that can win close games.


we are at the bottom... if you look at the last 9 years***


Posted: Mar 19, 2019 12:47 PM
    Reply



2019 orange level member


Huh?


Posted: Mar 19, 2019 4:17 PM
    Reply

Here are our ACC finishes under Brownell:

2010-2011: 4th
2011-2012: 7th
2012-2013: 11th
2013-2014: 6th
2014-2015: 9th
2015-2016: 7th
2016-2017: 12th
2017-2018: 3rd
2018-2019: 8th

Average finish is 7.44. How is that not middle of the conference?

2019 white level member

For me, just look at VPI

[1]
Posted: Mar 19, 2019 12:44 PM
    Reply

If VPI can make a decision to go get Buzz Williams, then Clemson can do the same type thing, period.

2019 orange level member


Re: For me, just look at VPI


Posted: Mar 19, 2019 12:55 PM
    Reply

VPI is mid-table in basketball spending... at 9.8 million.

They are spending twice what we are. In fact they are spending more than UVA... but when your prime rival is now a national power, you open your purse.

Football, VT: $30.9 million
Football, UVA: $22.3 million
Men’s Basketball, VT: $9.8 million
Men’s Basketball, UVA: $8.7 million


that speaks to my point... if VPI can do it


Posted: Mar 19, 2019 12:56 PM
    Reply

so can Clemson

2019 orange level member


Well of course Clemson can do it.


Posted: Mar 19, 2019 1:18 PM
    Reply

I'm just not sure Clemson will.

2019 white level member

Re: For me, just look at VPI


Posted: Mar 19, 2019 5:00 PM
    Reply

What if Buzz doesn't want to move?


Re: For the “big name” coaching crowd...

[1]
Posted: Mar 19, 2019 12:00 PM
    Reply

But who is the big-name coach that we can get?

Look around, there isn't a lot of Sweet Sixteen coaches available... and heck, we have one.

One, I do NOT want any coach with any grey-issue with the NCAA. I don't want any reason for the NCAA to poke around our athletic department, especially in the pursuit of basketball. I do not want a guy that is trying to clean his reputation with us. So, the coach has to be clean.

Really, there is only a few guys out there: Matta (close to UNLV gig I hear). Then you have Gottfried but he could not cut it at NC State. Gregg Marshall would be interesting but the Shockers support BBall more than we do. Who?


Re: For the “big name” coaching crowd...


Posted: Mar 19, 2019 12:03 PM
    Reply

FutureDoc said:

But who is the big-name coach that we can get?

Look around, there isn't a lot of Sweet Sixteen coaches available... and heck, we have one.

One, I do NOT want any coach with any grey-issue with the NCAA. I don't want any reason for the NCAA to poke around our athletic department, especially in the pursuit of basketball. I do not want a guy that is trying to clean his reputation with us. So, the coach has to be clean.

Really, there is only a few guys out there: Matta (close to UNLV gig I hear). Then you have Gottfried but he could not cut it at NC State. Gregg Marshall would be interesting but the Shockers support BBall more than we do. Who?

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