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Faith in the Bible is faith in man, not God.
Apr 22, 2019, 4:41 PM
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Having Faith in God, requires direct access to God. So having faith in a God, due to your intuition/divine access/whatever, is different than faith in a specific verse in the Bible. Conflating the two is illogical.
You guys didn't write the Bible. You guys were not there when it was written.... and translated and retranslated.
This means, that faith in Man is required. Especially considering there are literally thousands of versions of the Bible available. In order for the argument "God protected His Word" to make any sense, then it would have to be true that more than a small percentage of people around the world would have to accept a particular version of the "Word" as the actual pure word of God. But no such consensus exists. Version acceptance is clearly based on regional values. So faith, is attached to culture. (Man)
Also, because no translation from one language to another is perfectly exact, you have an inexact translation of God's pure word. You have to have faith in man to get it close enough to retain the correct message.
This SHOULD be a logical sign to people that their argument is built on a fallacy, but because people are emotionally preconditioned to retain their folk beliefs (how you were raised ) people look for things to pretend are "proof" or solid ground for their beliefs.
This is why Dogma changes based on where you are born. It's no accident that different parts of the world all have different versions of God's Word. To a logical person, one would look for the similarities of all religions in an attempt to distill spiritual meaning about the world. But because people are designed to survive in groups, people would rather hold on to logically inferior beliefs than genuinely seek the truth about existence.
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Legend [15492]
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Re: Faith in the Bible is faith in man, not God.
Apr 22, 2019, 5:15 PM
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I understand how hard it is for non-believers to understand faith. What can easily be characterized as a relic of our older cultures is actually far from that according to Pew Research there are approximately 2.2 Billion believers in Christianity. That's 31.5 % of the worlds population. Your premise is that all of these people are wrong. When you throw in Muslims, Hindu and assorted other beliefs then you get a majority of the worlds population.
The problem, as I see it, is that belief in God is entirely subjective, as it should be. There is no 'objective' proof of God to be found. I think that's what throws people off. There is nothing to point to and say 'there is God'.
Most believers that I know, including myself, can point to experiences that have allowed them to know God truly exists. We can't explain it to you nor take a photo of it. But the proof is there for us.
I respect non-believers, and I know that believers are in no way better, smarter or wiser than they are.
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All-TigerNet [10134]
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Re: Faith in the Bible is faith in man, not God.
Apr 22, 2019, 5:30 PM
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I agree Felix. The only way I know I can explain I believe that God exist is the fact that I don’t believe that life happens by accident. God, is easier to explain in my opinion that trying to put a puzzle together on how life was created.
I find it nearly impossible for a celestial space object so massive that when it exploded it created every single star, galaxy , planet, nebula or comet/ meteor in space. What created the Big Bang? Death Star blow it up? How massive was the object before it exploded? Keep in mind they are endless objects in space and the Milky Way isn’t the only galaxy. They are thousands of them.
Finally as I stated earlier, I don’t think life just happens. Look at organ functions and brain functions. Humans, although they have fault, they are perfect in functional design. When is the last time you see anything appear out of thin air without it being created?
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Legend [15492]
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Re: Faith in the Bible is faith in man, not God.
Apr 22, 2019, 5:36 PM
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I agree. Personally I've always felt that the Big Bang theory supported Creation. Scientists agree that "something became of nothing".
It's an interesting thought that will be debated till the cows come home...and neither side will budge.
Plus, I hate it when the death star blows stuff up. 
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Created out of thin air?
Apr 22, 2019, 5:39 PM
[ in reply to Re: Faith in the Bible is faith in man, not God. ] |
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You don't believe in evolution? Humans didn't just show up on the planet one day, unless you're taking the Creation story as literally as you possibly can.
I find it fascinating that people can say "well, it's too big and amazing and inexplicable, so it HAS to be a higher power that created the universe." Consider all of the things science and discovery have explained over the course of human history. At one point, all of that was essentially magic. Now we have scientific explanations for almost every single phenomenon that happens on earth and within our solar system. It starts getting more theoretical outside of that realm, of course, but imagine walking around on the planet 2000 years ago, and not knowing how the sun and moon and anything else worked. Imagine walking around on the planet 200 years ago, and knowing nothing about electricity, weather patterns, atomic structures, or evolution.
Now imagine what we'll know 200 years from now. When science has a credible explanation for all the marvelous, incredible, mindblowing things you don't know today...then what?
I've always been intrigued by what would happen if/when we meet a superior alien race. What does it do to current religions? Do they adapt? Do they just supplant the current version of God with the new supreme being(s)? What if our new overlords aren't in our image?
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Legend [15492]
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Re: Created out of thin air?
Apr 22, 2019, 6:04 PM
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I don't disagree with most of what you said. I don't believe that evolution is incompatible with creation at all. I believe that the story of Adam and Eve is metaphor, not to be taken literally.
As far as aliens, Christ said "I have children in other lands". So our new alien overlords aren't incompatible with existing beliefs.
I think the mistake that a lot of believers make is that they make God too small. They take too much of the Bible literally rather than understanding that the message was aimed at a population that was 99.9% illiterate.
Faith has survived centuries of science and discovery, none that I have seen that have ruled out the existence of God.
I have no problem in believing in life on other planets, I think that it is astronomically probable. I've always been amazed that some of my fellow Christians discount the possibility that God could have created other races of beings....but He was able to create the vast universe.
It bungles the mind...
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Legend [17914]
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I find it fascinating people can believe in evolution too
Apr 22, 2019, 8:53 PM
[ in reply to Created out of thin air? ] |
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Unless you think that all things simultaneously evolved but still, how foolish is that? And that people still think mankind "evolved" from a fish. The Biblical account of creation does, in fact, explain this world quite perfectly. I also love how it states that God said (Genesis 1:3), "Let there be light, and there was light...and God separated the light from the darkness...so, the evening and the morning were the first day."
What's even more amazing is that the Light that was manifest, it was so before the moon and the stars - but wait, that's not all. It was also before the sun! Amazing! I wonder, [what] is that light that separated and set itself apart from darkness and created the measure of time we now call a day?
Well, imagine all that light and neither the sun, nor the moon, nor the stars were even in place until the fourth day.
But hey, if you want to believe in evolution that is your choice and right to do so... your God given right at that!
About those aliens - I can already see what will be used to explain the disappearance of so many people when the rapture of the church takes place. Headlines will read, "We are Not Alone!" and "World Leaders offer comfort to families with loved ones that 'disappeared'". Not only that, "Governments unite against New and Unknown Alien Threat."
Well, science will have an answer...it always does. And when it doesn't fit, they can just [modify] the teaching and justify it based on newly discovered evidence. The Theory remains and theory with ever fluid borders on how it is defined.
Message was edited by: HuntClub®
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All-TigerNet [10134]
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Re: Created out of thin air?
Apr 23, 2019, 6:52 AM
[ in reply to Created out of thin air? ] |
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You don't believe in evolution? Humans didn't just show up on the planet one day, unless you're taking the Creation story as literally as you possibly can.
I find it fascinating that people can say "well, it's too big and amazing and inexplicable, so it HAS to be a higher power that created the universe." Consider all of the things science and discovery have explained over the course of human history. At one point, all of that was essentially magic. Now we have scientific explanations for almost every single phenomenon that happens on earth and within our solar system. It starts getting more theoretical outside of that realm, of course, but imagine walking around on the planet 2000 years ago, and not knowing how the sun and moon and anything else worked. Imagine walking around on the planet 200 years ago, and knowing nothing about electricity, weather patterns, atomic structures, or evolution.
Now imagine what we'll know 200 years from now. When science has a credible explanation for all the marvelous, incredible, mindblowing things you don't know today...then what?
I've always been intrigued by what would happen if/when we meet a superior alien race. What does it do to current religions? Do they adapt? Do they just supplant the current version of God with the new supreme being(s)? What if our new overlords aren't in our image?
That’s besides the point. Science can’t and never will be able to disprove Gods existence! Period. The argument of the “God Particle theory” is probably the closest theory as you can get, still those “God particles” came from somewhere? What created them? And how is it out of 13.8 billions of years , there has only been 1 instance where these to “God particles” collided to make life and never happen again? We only get one Big Bang?
As far as evolution... No I don’t think we evolved from a fish out of the ocean, I think only certain species evolve to adapt to their environment. Humans in this case I believe evolved by gaining knowledge instead of gaining or losing physical traits. This can be debated until the end of time, but one thing has remained. God can’t be disproved.
Message was edited by: Touch_The_Rock79
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Heisman Winner [137910]
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Science isn't in the business of disproving God.
Apr 23, 2019, 7:48 AM
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Never has been. But when you throw your hands up in the air and say "WOW, look at how miraculous and inexplicable _________ is, it MUST have been created by GOD!", and then 100 years later, science explains the phenomenon, then you just move the goalposts. And that's fine.
The world can be divided pretty simply into two subsets of people: those who are OK with not yet knowing all the answers, and those who must have the answers now to be able to sleep tonight. The second is quite literally impossible without filling in the gaps with magic. Again...that's fine. Whatever works for you.
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All-In [49040]
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I believe that we will fill in a lot of gaps in current
Apr 24, 2019, 1:29 PM
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scientific knowledge with future scientific discoveries. However, I also believe in God. I don't think any of this is incompatible. I find Joseph Campbell fascinating as he points out a lot of similarities in world religions. Buddha has a temptation story. Nyambi created Kamonu in his image and created a garden for him that met all his needs. Hinduism has a holy trinity. Gilgamesh was warned by Enki that divine judgment called for a world wide flood.
II think the commonality of history could be many things, and I am aware that Campbell thought they were evidence of something other than God, but they are just as easily interpreted to be evidence of God and a single creation and a common history warped by people turning away from one God.
I didn't use to believe any of this and was always skeptical, but the way my life has turned out in the last few years, and certain things that have happened in it have made me realize that God has always been a part of it.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Respectfully, you missed the point.
Apr 22, 2019, 7:25 PM
[ in reply to Re: Faith in the Bible is faith in man, not God. ] |
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If you are going to go to the trouble of responding, be sure what you are responding to.
I made a specific point about the relationship between faith and the Bible.
And I believe there is a very logical argument for the existence of God, depending on how one defines it.
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All-TigerNet [10134]
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Re: Respectfully, you missed the point.
Apr 22, 2019, 7:37 PM
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In order to have faith, you must first believe in a creator. People before the Bible was written by man believed in a creator. I do believe evolution in certain species as evolution an creation do not conflict with one another.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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You could have faith in anything. Faith is simply believing
Apr 22, 2019, 7:40 PM
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strongly in something without logical deduction or much physical evidence. That could apply to God, or love, or whatever. In fact, I have faith that leads me to reject the Judeo-Christian belief in the character of God.
The Bible is different than a belief in God. One can easily have one without the other.
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Re: You could have faith in anything. Faith is simply believing
Apr 22, 2019, 7:55 PM
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I agee. I could believe there is a God without a bible. I happen believe in both.
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And one can be argued without Dogma, the other can't.***
Apr 23, 2019, 11:21 AM
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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Re: Christian believers have nothing to be proud about.
Apr 23, 2019, 9:39 AM
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So really we have no choice in the matter. We were predestined for heaven or hell. According to Romans 9:
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory?
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God's preserved Word in action.***
Apr 23, 2019, 11:43 AM
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Re: Faith in the Bible is faith in man, not God.
Apr 22, 2019, 5:28 PM
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To say there is no consensus on what the original text of the Bible looked like is misrepresenting the facts a little bit. There are more copies of the New Testament than any ancient document and it’s not even close. Of course that doesn’t mean that what is says is historical fact. Anybody can make something up so your overall point is a good one.
However the literal interpretation is a fairly new one. The early church fathers for example were not concerned with whether Noah’s flood actually occurred. It was the meaning of the text. This is why there is discrepancy in minor details in Jesus’ teaching. The writers of the gospels were concerned with the overall point of the message.
A lot of Christians believe the written word is just one of several ways god has revealed himself.
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Re: Faith in the Bible is faith in man, not God.
Apr 22, 2019, 7:31 PM
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There are more copies of the New Testament than any ancient document and it’s not even close.
This misses the point. If there were one "New Testament" then that would be a good point. There is not. There are THOUSANDS based on different interpretations and language translations. Here is a list of JUST the English versions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_Bible_translations
To your other points, that is a much easier and more defensible position, but it proves that faith in the Bible involves faith that Man got the general meaning of the Word correct. It also opens the doors for competing interpretations. Literalism has been around long since before the first version of the Christian Bible and it has survived (up and down) ever since. Even when Church fathers like St Augustine of Hippo argued for loose interpretations, those arguments were made selectively, based on HIS interpretations. He believed some were literal and others were not.
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Re: Faith in the Bible is faith in man, not God.
Apr 23, 2019, 8:36 AM
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The meaning doesn't really change between translations though. Just the way the text is rendered. There is virtually no core doctrine of christianity in question among New Testament scholars. There are several passages though that are in modern bibles that are not believed to be authentic. Most notably the story of the prostitute in John and the post resurrection appearances in Mark.
The thing I find funny is that nowhere in the New Testament does it claim to be the divine, inspired word of god. In Timothy the "scripture" Paul refers to, if he even wrote the book, was the Old Testament. The belief that the gospels and letters of the New Testament are infallible and inerrant came much later.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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The Trinity was controversial until for political reasons
Apr 23, 2019, 11:20 AM
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Arianism was stamped out.
Predestination.... debated.
Existence of actual physical h*ll involving torture.... debated
Earth being the center of the Universe.... debated
Justification for a Pope.... debated
Slavery..... no longer debated.... but was recently
Literalism..... debated
Interpretation.... debated
You get the idea.
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CU Guru [1020]
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Re: Faith in the Bible is faith in man, not God.
Apr 22, 2019, 7:04 PM
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Having Faith in God, requires direct access to God. So having faith in a God, due to your intuition/divine access/whatever, is different than faith in a specific verse in the Bible. Conflating the two is illogical.
You guys didn't write the Bible. You guys were not there when it was written.... and translated and retranslated.
This means, that faith in Man is required. Especially considering there are literally thousands of versions of the Bible available. In order for the argument "God protected His Word" to make any sense, then it would have to be true that more than a small percentage of people around the world would have to accept a particular version of the "Word" as the actual pure word of God. But no such consensus exists. Version acceptance is clearly based on regional values. So faith, is attached to culture. (Man)
Also, because no translation from one language to another is perfectly exact, you have an inexact translation of God's pure word. You have to have faith in man to get it close enough to retain the correct message.
This SHOULD be a logical sign to people that their argument is built on a fallacy, but because people are emotionally preconditioned to retain their folk beliefs (how you were raised ) people look for things to pretend are "proof" or solid ground for their beliefs.
This is why Dogma changes based on where you are born. It's no accident that different parts of the world all have different versions of God's Word. To a logical person, one would look for the similarities of all religions in an attempt to distill spiritual meaning about the world. But because people are designed to survive in groups, people would rather hold on to logically inferior beliefs than genuinely seek the truth about existence.
Respectfully, that is incorrect.
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Heisman Winner [137910]
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OK, but why?***
Apr 22, 2019, 7:05 PM
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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I have direct access to God and sometimes...
Apr 22, 2019, 8:04 PM
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Him to me. He never puts my mail in the wrong mailbox. It might take me a while to pick it up and read it but He's always prompt in His attention to me.
If a god couldn't preserve his word I wouldn't pay him no mind.
We have the Holy Spirit to compensate for things which a secular person would say are lost in translation(s).
The proof you're looking for is in my heart. My faith has stood the weathering of many storms and the anchor of my soul has never failed.
You believe or not believe but don't confound yourself trying to impress me with how right you are. It won't work. You say my belief is inferior to yours. I say it doesn't matter whether or not you believe in electricity when a 440v high wire uses you for a ground. Ask the people who have experienced electricity not the guys who make a living writing books and news articles.
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All-TigerNet [10134]
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Re: I have direct access to God and sometimes...
Apr 23, 2019, 6:25 AM
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Couldn’t have said it better myself CT1988.
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Re: I have direct access to God and sometimes...
Apr 23, 2019, 11:25 AM
[ in reply to I have direct access to God and sometimes... ] |
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I have direct access to God and sometimes... Sorry, I have little faith in Man. I don't believe you have had specific verses in the Bible confirmed by God. I can believe that you do have a direct access to God. Though neither you nor I can know for sure which ideas you believed you have derived from God are pure and which have been accidentally corrupted by your imperfection. You have faith in YOURSELF for perfectly interpreting those things you claim to be perfectly God's words.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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Re:" I have direct access to God and sometimes...
Apr 23, 2019, 2:06 PM
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He has access to me." Don't spin this away, it's beneath you. God is always with me. Specifically due to my spirit being joined in union with His Holy Spirit. Explaining that to you I liken to explaining Clemson Orange to a blind man.
If not for people like you who doubt and contradict God's Word my questions about God's existence and my faith would be much more in doubt. You're what the scripture calls a scoffer.
The quote in the subject line is a perfect example of a relationship with God. He's there but at times we don't hear Him because our hearts are filled with confusion and fear. It happened to Peter as Christ walked across the water to join the apostles in the boat which was being tossed about by a horrific storm.
Peter asked who it was that came toward them. Christ identified Himself to Peter and the others. Peter challenged The Lord by saying if it is you, call me and I'll meet you on the water. Paraphrased.
Christ bid him to come and Peter stepped out on the water and headed toward The Lord. The Bible says that Peter, 'saw the wind boisterous.' He had fear and his faith for he'd taken his eyes off the master and considered the circumstances instead.
That happens to me a lot. I forget that it's not the strength of one's faith but the object of that faith that gives us our fellowship with God and the joy which goes with it. I believe it happens to most every Christian and they should share it to identify with the lost.
Here's the record according to Matthew in the 14th chapter of his personal recollections
29/ And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
30/ But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
31. And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him,
That's how my God works for me. His will is to work that way for you too. He only blessed me with faith about the size of a mustard seed so He has to remind me daily to trust Him and keep my eyes right.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Careful claiming to speak for God.
Apr 23, 2019, 3:09 PM
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I don't doubt God's Word. I doubt you are right. Did you see what I did there? I think you are overconfident in yourself. Not overconfident in God. I think you are too confident in your culture... in your family... in your tradition. The things that have caused you to identify the way you have. People brought you a particular version of religion. And you grew where you were planted. And that, in my opinion, screws with access to God. Interference so to speak.
I simply don't think you know God's word. I think you believe that you do, but so do lots of people equally as sincere as you but they disagree. But... you are not God. Neither are they. It's arrogant of anyone to assert their "best guess" as definitely God's Word.
I have faith... just not so much in myself being right with so little effort... like you seem to be.
You seem to see yourself as chosen... as God's special baby. And that appears to me to be a human delusion. Hubris.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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I believe what God has taught me by His Spirit about...
Apr 23, 2019, 5:47 PM
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His word. That's the entire point of having a personal god. I treat Him like He's God and He treats me like His son who is foolish and misguided. Over the years He has rooted out my preconceptions brought about by attending a dozen different protestant churches and being best friends with two Catholics throughout my middle teen years.
I learned that I was wrong about more things I 'knew,' than one can imagine. I don't see eye to eye with my Baptist fellow members or the hierarchy of the Southern Baptist Association of which I support.
In fact, if God ever moved my heart I hope it's to Catholicism.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Re: I believe what God has taught me by His Spirit about...
Apr 24, 2019, 1:03 PM
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Over the years He has rooted out my preconceptions brought about by attending a dozen different protestant churches and being best friends with two Catholics throughout my middle teen years.
Here we are... this implies you had interpreted your mail from God incorrectly before. And interaction with human beings helped you uncover a purer message from God. That means you are probably not done yet. That opens the possibility to you finding out Christian Dogma is false (Just like Islam and Judaism) and created by man. 
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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If you'd have been really paying attention to what I said..
Apr 23, 2019, 5:38 PM
[ in reply to Re:" I have direct access to God and sometimes... ] |
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you'd realizes that when I reported 'God never puts my mail in the wrong box,' that also covers me presuming to speak for God to others. He won't put your mail in the wrong box either, I presume. He's gives me directions on how to address the issues but He never has and I don't presume He ever will put your mail in my box.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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The mail I get isnt as specific as the mail you believe you
Apr 24, 2019, 1:01 PM
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get. I believe that some of the specifics you attribute to God do not come from God. That means I am not challenging God, unless you are right... which I don't believe... based on my own subjective interpretations of mail in my box. I believe you get the exact same mail as I do but that I do not allow SPAM to alter the meaning of that mail. Spam being influence from all the influences that create our temporal identity.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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Since I am not in responsible for your mail
Apr 25, 2019, 10:45 AM
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I am therefor not accountable for the results. My salvation does not depend on your view, attitude or salvation. I depend on and trust in the Blood of The Christ for that. If there was a way to escape the coming judgment I would gladly share it with you. If there was another door to escape from a life of sin against God's will I would have taken it.
It's a difficult thing for me to admit that I am corrupt when compared to Christ who was perfect in God's will. It's tough to humble myself daily before God and turn away from my natural desires and horrible humanistic attitude.
I love myself, I think way too much of myself, that's pride. That's mans' downfall. We've decided we have rights before God. We've gone about to live as best we can and weigh ourselves against one another to 'prove,' our righteousness. We establish then prove that we are God's equal but only in our corrupt hearts.
Your mail is your responsibility. I am no one. Strangely enough, I can't tell if you're even getting mail from God but I know the offer He extends is extended to all including you. I prayed for you last night. That's all I got.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Re: Since I am not in responsible for your mail
Apr 25, 2019, 11:20 AM
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I depend on and trust in the Blood of The Christ for that.
You keep skipping the point. You're whole perspective about Blood and Christ is 100% dependent on Man. You would have never had that perspective had you not been raised in a place that made that likely. Your exact same fervor would be claiming different beliefs just as confidently if you were born in most of the rest of the world. You would be JUST as confident and JUST as sure of your salvation.
I genuinely appreciate you praying for me, but I think you can probably tell I'm too far gone to ever come back. I was raised Christian. A lot of the people I love and respect are Christian. In my opinion, the most intelligent person I have ever met was Christian. (not sure about now) In my attempt to strengthen the sincerity of my advocacy/defense of Christianity, and to erase doubts, I learned too much about it, and decided it was less likely to be true than a few alternatives. This was despite my bias, not because of it.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Faith in the Bible is faith in man, not God.
Apr 23, 2019, 2:09 AM
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All that is true.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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That is your testimony.
Apr 23, 2019, 2:07 PM
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Not mine.
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Oculus Spirit [97716]
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The whole purpose of religion is to make beasts live
Apr 23, 2019, 7:33 AM
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Together peacefully. It created literacy. It created cities, nations, laws, and economies. It is a requisite for civilization. Period. Why? Because you have to look to a greater power distinct from man, for men to coexist.
The Bible teaches us to act in ways we would otherwise not be inclined to act for our own betterment.
No. I have no faith in man, although my faith in men who look beyond men for how they should act I at least put some faith in them.
If you can't see the value in the message in the Bible then go somewhere it doesn't exist. You may find peace under another religion and another Bible. But the message will be similar.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: The whole purpose of religion is to make beasts live
Apr 23, 2019, 9:20 AM
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Are there any societies where religion was a non factor? I would assume so.
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Oculus Spirit [97716]
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Not really. There are some where it's been outlawed
Apr 23, 2019, 9:56 AM
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eg. DPRK, but even then in those cases the dear leader becomes a deity and God-like figure. But even small remote tribes in the Amazon rain forest who have zero contact with the outside world, have a god, or gods, and religion.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Re: The whole purpose of religion is to make beasts live
Apr 23, 2019, 11:33 AM
[ in reply to The whole purpose of religion is to make beasts live ] |
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The whole purpose of religion is to make beasts live together peacefully.
Then it failed miserably. Religion has been a convenient justification for murder, stealing, and all the other horrible things that go on. History says "Hi."
It created literacy
That makes no sense. Literacy was not created by religion. Religion utilized the human capability of literacy. As those in charge of religion were always the most powerful and most "educated" in ancient civilizations, it is a practical relationship.
The Bible teaches us to act in ways we would otherwise not be inclined to act for our own betterment.
How do people say stuff like this without immediately thinking about the rest of the world that functions without the Bible? One thing you are right about, if a burning bush told me to murder my Son, I would not be naturally inclined to do so. Glad the Bible is trying to fix that.
No. I have no faith in man,
Yes you do, if you believe that the Bible is the Word of God. You would not have access to it without Man. And God has never specifically confirmed all of the Dogma contained in it.
If you can't see the value in the message in the Bible then go somewhere it doesn't exist.
Look, I am not naturally inclined to just start insulting people... but it appears very stupid for you to say something like this. It is necessarily hypocritical.
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110%er [5640]
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Re: Faith in the Bible is faith in man, not God.
Apr 23, 2019, 8:59 AM
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You seem to be intelligent and well read, try to look at it this way. After the fall of mankind all lived under God's law. God remained behind the veil in the temple and only a chosen few were allowed access to the inner sanctuary. God set in motion a way for the redemption of mankind, he ordained the birth of his son Jesus of a virgin. He allowed his son to suffer severe punishment and a horrible death by crucifixion. At the moment of his death the veil of the temple was torn thereby allowing man direct access to God the father through his son Jesus and the holy spirit.
So we do have direct access to God.
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Scout Team [153]
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Re: Faith in the Bible is faith in man, not God.
Apr 23, 2019, 9:33 AM
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What good reason is there to believe that though? Why would Jesus only appear to a handful of people after his death and require me 2000 years removed from this event to believe it or go to hell?
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All-In [26968]
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Your logic is sound, as far as logic goes...
Apr 23, 2019, 9:38 AM
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But your point of view is secular, not spiritual.
Part of faith in God is faith that He does what He says. Sometimes he uses man to do those things. (Thank God!) So to have faith in God sometimes means having faith in something man is doing in a literal sense.
He promised to preserve His word, eternally. He has used man to do that. Different people have different beliefs about the specifics of how He's done that, but it's still about faith in God's work, that He performed through men.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Re: Your logic is sound, as far as logic goes...
Apr 23, 2019, 11:38 AM
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But your point of view is secular, not spiritual.
I reject the existence of the distinction between the two. There is either reality or not. If something is true, whether or not it be associated with religion or science, then it is true. My point of view is a mix of logic, experience and intuition. I believe in Faith. I can just acknowledge how it is applied.
As for the rest, the only reason you could have possibly come to that conclusion is how you were raised/taught. None of that would be your opinion (specifically applied to Christianity) had people not influenced you one way or another. You'd be saying the same stuff about Islam had you been born in Saudi Arabia.
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All-In [26968]
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Re: Your logic is sound, as far as logic goes...
Apr 23, 2019, 11:47 AM
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"As for the rest, the only reason you could have possibly come to that conclusion is how you were raised/taught. None of that would be your opinion (specifically applied to Christianity) had people not influenced you one way or another. You'd be saying the same stuff about Islam had you been born in Saudi Arabia. "
I don't deny this, and it's interesting you seem to view this as a negative. This is obviously why it's important what we teach our children, because it normally sticks. (The Bible teaches this!)
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Re: Your logic is sound, as far as logic goes...
Apr 23, 2019, 11:54 AM
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It's important as evidence that it's bogus.
If God designed a world that gave an arbitrary advantage to some avoiding being burned in H*ll for eternity based largely on the luck of where they were born, then that would be an immoral, arbitrary God. I have faith, based on what I believe is direct access to God, that such behavior from God is impossible. Therefore, the most likely explanation for this belief is man being stupid (for reasons I described above). I believe we do not require a particular factional belief in dogma order to gain access to eternity in heaven. Such a belief seems so obviously man attempting to come to grips with death in the simplest possible way. "Follow the elders and we get a ticket to eternity in paradise."
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Scout Team [153]
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Re: Your logic is sound, as far as logic goes...
Apr 23, 2019, 12:54 PM
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"If God designed a world that gave an arbitrary advantage to some avoiding being burned in H*ll for eternity based largely on the luck of where they were born, then that would be an immoral, arbitrary God."
The bible actually takes this a step further. It teaches that faith is a gift from god, that those who believe were chosen before time began, and that those who do not were blinded by god. So not only is it luck of the draw, some of us were created just so we could be destroyed to show the power of god.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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Now we get to the nitty gritty.
Apr 23, 2019, 6:02 PM
[ in reply to Re: Your logic is sound, as far as logic goes... ] |
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God's knowing about who would and wouldn't be saved doesn't mean He controls it. He could control it and can do anything but many things He could do are prevented by His virtue and confound who He is.
A PHD lab chemist warns his lab techs to mix some caustic acid and water in a particular manner to neutralize the acid and make it virtually harmless. If one mixes it wrong the Chemist is sadden for the harm it cause the tech but it's not his fault, he warned them. He didn't create the explosion.
God has ways of warning people yet some He knows are going to perish because they won't heed fair warnings. You are in a nation which is filled with warnings.
On another note which is not related to you I'll say this. It seems the secular people aren't concerned with God except to wipe the earth of Him. One day they will exist without the Holy Presence of God.
The Bible calls it a lake of fire where the worm (soul, I presume) never dies. Since no flesh will be carried into the next life I believe that the absence of God can only be likened to a consuming fire and no fire as we know it exist. Just darkness surrounding each member of that venue and loneliness eternal. I can't imagine why everyone else hasn't come to that conclusion but I admit, I asked and I received.
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Re: Now we get to the nitty gritty.
Apr 24, 2019, 1:07 PM
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God's knowing about who would and wouldn't be saved doesn't mean He controls it. He could control it and can do anything but many things He could do are prevented by His virtue and confound who He is.
Do you have children? This is the type of BS that kids try when they are obviously guilty of something. Logical backflips that should trigger a red flag. If God CREATED the situation that leads to most people being tortured to death for eternity, and KNEW about it, and had the power to stop it but CHOSE not to.. then that God would be an evil piece of sh*t. I got that "in the mail" btw.
God is powerful when it wins arguments and helpless when tough questions arise. How convenient. Clearly bullsh*t.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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So you're all against free will?
Apr 24, 2019, 1:50 PM
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Let me share a truth with you. Lucifer was one of the archangels and was reported to be the most beautiful because he reflected God's glory best. Lucifer got all full of himself and decided to have a will other than God's. That doesn't sound too bad, does it.
Folks talk about the battle between good and evil, Lucifer and God, as if it's a real struggle. It's not. My God can used His power to create our Universe without diminishing His power one calorie. Lucifer's power is deception and perversion. He makes slight alterations or adjustments to that which God has created and corrupts God's product.
Lucifer could never war against God, his battleground is in the hearts of man and the angels. Previous to man being created Satan enticed a multitude of other angels and persuaded them that they too could have a kingdom ruled by their or his will apart and separate from God. So what's the problem if the devil and other angels go off in some far corner and set up their own kingdom?
The problem is that God can not allow a will other than His own. To deal with this He created man. Man was in God's perfect will in the Garden. Satan came along and enticed man to violate God's one law or rule and man fell. So yeah, God knew man would fail. He didn't designed it that way but He gave man freewill. So why would He give man free will knowing that man would fail?
It was done in order to show those of freewill that His righteousness was also coupled with His intense and perfect love for His creations including man and His angels. His love was equal to His Holiness and Justice. Got it?
He made an escape for man. He took on the body of a man and fulfilled the law by serving as man's sin and being destroyed on the cross. God Almighty took on flesh and died on a cross for our sin. Not plural, it's singular and all inclusive. He has continuously reminded mankind of the available escape from the spiritual death of existence without Him. That's all hell amounts to according to my understanding. Actually, being without God scares me more than burning for eternity. It's easy to blow that off but not to realize that that which we enjoy now, including you, will be denied during an existence which is without end or limitation.
Furthermore, Christ now sits at the Right Hand of our Father, continuously testifying on our behalf and making intercessions for us. The scars in His hands will exist throughout eternity as proof that God's love is worthy of the favor of man and angel alike. God dealt with both to ensure that neither of us would ever have a will contrary to His because is His desire and goal to create a perfect existence for His kingdom.
He provided for your and everyone else's salvation and is therefor not culpable for creating man to perish. If there's a window or door in a burning room and you don't use it to escape it's God's fault for creating you?
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Re: So you're all against free will?
Apr 25, 2019, 9:32 AM
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The debate over free will is weird.
People obviously make choices, and those choices happen based on brain chemistry and past experiences. I believe in personal responsibility, and I believe we are all accountable for our choices. But, clearly all choices are heavily effected by experience and chemistry.
I don't believe in a Lucifer. I do not believe that God (I'm not a monotheist btw) has an opposing force. SO this means that I have no reason to believe the dogmatic narrative that you just shared. The narrative you just shared, that is supposed to explain part of the nature of God, is dogma. It is learned by men from men and passed down from generations. I do not believe that is a good source for my faith. I prefer logic, experience and intuition. There are clearly some things about Abrahamic religions that I do believe in. Also, it seems very obvious to me that atheism (or lack of a belief in underlying purpose) is ridiculous, but I simply don't have enough faith in man to believe in dogma without independently confirming it.
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110%er [5640]
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Re: Faith in the Bible is faith in man, not God.
Apr 24, 2019, 11:09 AM
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Ephesians 4:18 They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to the hardness of heart.
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Scout Team [153]
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Re: Faith in the Bible is faith in man, not God.
Apr 24, 2019, 11:29 AM
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What about the verses that say god is the one that blinds people?
Y’all gonna keep ignoring them?
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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If you really want to explore them then find them...
Apr 24, 2019, 1:52 PM
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and bring them forth. We're talking about Bible scripture, right?
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Scout Team [153]
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Re: If you really want to explore them then find them...
Apr 24, 2019, 2:14 PM
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From Romans 9:
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory?
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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We all have the exact same freewill.
Apr 24, 2019, 3:59 PM
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You're confusing God's knowing with that being God's intent. Knowing it's going to happen didn't make God culpable since He's warned you time and time again that there is a salvation from your demise available to you.
Many will find their perverted reasoning exposed when we all face God on judgment day. He died so that you'd escape and gave to you a door out. You will not be excused for not making your exit from among the ranks of nonbelievers. None of your confusion or misconceptions will work when they are on the other side of justice's balance and the righteousness of Christ in the other pan.
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Scout Team [153]
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Re: We all have the exact same freewill.
Apr 24, 2019, 8:42 PM
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You’re intentionally skirting the issue here. That verse doesn’t just say god knew, it says he created human beings intentionally and specifically to be destroyed just to show his power.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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110%er [5640]
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Re: Hey, a dude wrote that. I wonder why?***
Apr 24, 2019, 6:28 PM
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When one becomes so hardened the Holy Spirit will no longer come and deal with the individual. I encourage you to listen to the still small voice before it is to late.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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It exonerates Christians from the responsibility of...
Apr 25, 2019, 11:01 AM
[ in reply to Hey, a dude wrote that. I wonder why?*** ] |
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the lost refusing our testimonies. We are responsible to share our experience with God but not for how you receive it. Basically it's saying, 'That's above our paygrade.' It prevents our crushing burden of saving the loss. It's God's job to bless you and others with the Holy Spirit to shine the light of Christ on your heart.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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I think it's a cheap way of keeping people from doubting.
Apr 25, 2019, 11:22 AM
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It prevents people from using one of the most important gifts from God, the capacity for logical thought. Abrahamic religion tends to demonize logical deduction... and there is a very practical reason for that.
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