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Topic: A Black Man's Perspective on Benjamin Tillman....
Replies: 45   Last Post: Jun 11, 2020 6:30 PM by: GSCtiger
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A Black Man's Perspective on Benjamin Tillman....

emoji_events [67]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020 4:53 PM
 

I've been a Clemson fan basically since birth(in fact I was about 10 months old when they championship #1) probably the reason why I chose to wear orange instead of that awful @$$ Garnet.. I do, though, have a confession to make..

I did not know who Ben Tillman was until about 2 years ago..

All the while being on t-net I kept seeing references of "The Curse of Pitchfork Ben" or "Tillman's Curse" actually was chuckling lightly..

So i went to Ben Tillman's profile on Wikipedia..
And here is what I read...
"Served as Governor of SC"..
"Former U.S Senator"..
"Instrumental in Founding Clemson University"...
"A white supremacist who opposed Civil rights for Black Americans"..
" on the floor of the U.S Senate, he defended lynching, and frequently ridiculed black Americans in his speeches, boasting of having helped kill them during that campaign"...

WHAAAAAAAT?

I've seen posts calling for Tillman Hall to be renamed.. And in my opinion..again...i am a black man who bleeds orange.. Tillman Hall should NOT be renamed!!..

If you do that you might as well rename the City of Clemson and the University h3ll everything that was named after known slave owners and Racist SOB's...

Probably gonna get flamed oh well guess I'm not allowed to have an opinion...

BTW 87 Days...
#DumSpiroSpero


The city of Clemson has been renamed several times already

emoji_events [5]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020 4:55 PM
 

and Tillman Hall isn't the building's original name.

2020 white level member

Since tnet has turned into a history lesson of sorts today

[4]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020 5:06 PM
 

I thought I would remind you than in plantation (slavery) days many,many years ago the wealthy plantation owners would send their families along with their servants to the Blue Ridge mountains north of Clemson to escape the blistering heat of the low country. Many had homes in the High Hampton area around what we now know as the Whitewater Falls area. What an unbelievable trip that must have been by horse and wagon. Some tough dudes back then.


What were some of the previous names? I know it was


Posted: Jun 11, 2020 6:12 AM
 

Calhoun, SC but that's the only name I was aware of other than Clemson.

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Maybe it's just time to honor somebody new

emoji_events [5]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020 4:58 PM
 

It was named Tillman Hall in the 50's sometime I believe.

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Re: Maybe it's just time to honor somebody new

[3]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020 6:56 PM
 

1946

The official reason was it was a gift to Tillman's son. But the Clemson History Department said it was more a shot across the bow to USC, because they started allowing black students after the War under the GI Bill.

1946 was peak Jim Crow, Clemson was still only white-male, and South Carolina had some very restrictive race laws at the time.


Re: A Black Man's Perspective on Benjamin Tillman....

emoji_events [7]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020 5:00 PM
 

Of all the post someone who has a better perspective than most here and the most thought out statement. I agree Tillman and Calhoun were terrible people. However, people like Washington and Jefferson also were slave owners. This doesn’t mean we write them out of history. What makes Clemson great is that the vast majority I ever came into contact while attending that school didn’t see color. We were all part of the same family and would do anything to help each other out, because we were all apart of the same journey and at the core good people. (Some exclusions of course apply). While I disagree the past is horrid I wish we could focus on the present and future of Clemson so more people see how unique we are.


Explain how history is rewritten by renaming Tillman hall

[2]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020 5:03 PM
 

The building will forever have had the name Main Hall and Tillman Hall. That will always be part of the history of that building.

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Your viewpoint is certainly allowed

[4]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020 5:02 PM
 

Here's a summary of the views held by those wanting to make a change back to the original name (Old Main) that was used until 1962.

https://takedowntillman.org/background

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I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and doggone it, people like me.


We could name it Trevor Hall in honor of our first Heisman winner***

[3]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020 5:03 PM
 



2020 white level membermilitary_donation.jpg

ETN could be our first.***

emoji_events [5]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020 5:08 PM
 



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Yes. Travis Hall has a nice ring to it***

[2]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020 9:18 PM
 



2020 white level membermilitary_donation.jpg

POTD!!!!

emoji_events [9]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020 5:07 PM
 

Loved reading your post. I know things change. The bad apples in America need to change more than names and/or statues. It starts at home and with parents when our children are at an age to mold them to whom they need to be. I see so much of it in stores, the streets, etc. where parents fail. I may be wrong but this is MHO.

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Re: POTD!!!!

emoji_events [5]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020 5:27 PM
 

I believe it could be the post of the week.

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Re: A Black Man's Perspective on Benjamin Tillman....

[4]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020 5:08 PM
 

to erase history is to forget history...

why deny ourselves the opportunity to live/learn ...others mistakes and misguided opinions

we end up also forgetting the genius of some historical figures and become an idiocracy

i certainly do not see where tearing down statues aids in race relations or personal advancement

i have no problem with Tillman hall renaming but do it and be done..the forever crusade is tiring and unproductive

i also marvel at the convenience of of these issues becoming HUGE issues during election years

2020 purple level memberbadge-donor-15yr.jpg

We could be like our


Posted: Jun 9, 2020 5:11 PM
 

‘Friends’ in Chapel Hill and have a gigantic protest march! I so want to be like them ...
Don’t you?


Re: A Black Man's Perspective on Benjamin Tillman....

emoji_events [10]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020 7:03 PM
 

"To erase history is to forget history"

That's false. Just take a trip to Germany. They went through "Denazification" in doing the very thing people in the US have been doing - taking down monuments, renaming buildings/streets, and removing awful people from the public square. They renamed "Karl-Marx-Stadt" back to its original name, Chemnitz, after Unification if you want a more recent example.

Germany doesn't forget its history whatsoever, as countries like the US won't let it. However, its own government does a much better job in accepting its past and teaching it honestly. I recommend visiting the Document Center in Nuremberg. It's the German government's official place to learn about the Third Reich. And that's what most us believe the US should do with the Confederacy.

No town in Germany has a "Joseph Goebbels Street" nor do their universities have a "Heinrich Himmler Hall" or "Reynhard Heydrich School of Criminal Justice" even if those men were associated with those institutions. As Clemson's history department repeated ad nauseum:

Good men can do bad things. LBJ with Vietnam and Bush II with Iraq are examples.

Bad men can do good things. Hitler with the Autobahn and Calhoun/Tillman with Clemson are examples.

We should glorify the former, not the latter.

And no, it wasn't ever about "heritage". Most CSA monuments were put up by the Daughters of the Confederacy between 1900 and 1930. AKA this coincided with the most draconian period of the Jim Crow South. Ask Professor Rod Andrew at Clemson if you want. He'll tell you the same and he's one of the foremost Southern historians that happens to be working for the University. Or Paul Anderson, the other Southern history professor at CU. They'll both tell you the same as they told me.


djb_ws tells it like it is.

[4]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020 10:01 PM
 

I am all for going back to calling the signature building on campus "Old Main". I'm not proud to have a Tillman Hall at Clemson.

JC Calhoun's plantation is the land on which Clemson is built. His house is an historical residence of a prominent politician of the 19th Century. I would not want to pretend he did not exist. Yes Calhoun owned slaves and profited from their labor. So did Washington and Jefferson.

Old Main it is. I like the name.

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Re: djb_ws tells it like it is.

[1]
Posted: Jun 10, 2020 10:44 AM
 

I can support that as well since "Tillman" wasn't the original name. Yet my concern is, that won't be the end. Before the "snow flakes" in Washington are finished, the name of our beloved University will have to be changed as well. At some point, we have to say, "Enough is enough." Go Tigers!

2020 purple level member

Pretty slick there... lumping Calhoun and Tillman in with Hitler.


Posted: Jun 10, 2020 1:57 AM
 

Johnny Cochran...is that you???

2020 white level member

I think that's the issue with a lot on here


Posted: Jun 10, 2020 10:52 AM
 

Where is the tipping point between a 'good person' and a 'bad person'?

2020 white level member

Clemson


In mathematical terms


Posted: Jun 10, 2020 5:35 PM
 

Let B be the bad people.
B = democrats, liberals, progressives, pelosi, biden, schiff, strzok, comey, brennen, obama, ...

Let G be the good people.
G = 1 - B.
QED
:)


Re: A Black Man's Perspective on Benjamin Tillman....

[1]
Posted: Jun 10, 2020 11:06 AM
 

That's to simplified. You left out that the South was destroyed by the North. It took decades to recover from the war. Raising money to build monuments took a long time when survival was first and foremost.


Re: A Black Man's Perspective on Benjamin Tillman....

[1]
Posted: Jun 10, 2020 12:25 PM
 

These are monuments to traitors that literally committed treason against the country.

The South was destroyed more by the fact that they put all their eggs in one economic basket (slavery based agriculture), and when the markets in Europe dried up because the European countries didn't support slavery, the Southern economy collapsed.

Besides, to prove the point that these men were reprehensible, as soon as the old guard of the Confederacy took back power in the 1870s (guys like Wade Hampton III and other "Redeemers"), they went ahead and passed/signed Jim Crow Laws which effectively nullified all of the progress from the War and Reconstruction. Poll taxes, IQ tests, etc.

I swear the vast majority of Clemson fans and people on these boards slept through US History class.


To compare Nazi Germany and the murder of 6M Jews with

[1]
Posted: Jun 10, 2020 5:31 PM
 

the worldwide slave trade of the 17-1800s, made possible by blacks in Africa BTW, is asinine, stupid, disingenuous, and shows you have no ability to think critically. Don't reproduce.


Re: A Black Man's Perspective on Benjamin Tillman....

[1]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020 5:14 PM
 

That is the most sane thing I've seen on here for a long while. I appreciate your input and perspective!

2020 white level member

Re: A Black Man's Perspective on Benjamin Tillman....

[3]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020 5:22 PM
 

You are the kind of man no matter the color of your skin that could help to bring the races together. IMO if we Can learn to let go of the past we can build a great future work as one. This is a Great Post. I wish everyone could see what you see. It would helps to work together as one people.

I wish I could say racism will go away but we know there are always going to be bad people in this world.

2020 orange level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg

I actualy think Tillman Hall should be renamed but..

[2]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020 5:32 PM
 

I certainly don't want to see it happen in the current environment.

2020 white level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpg

"When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car."

"I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it."


Ben Tillman was a democrat.

emoji_events [5]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020 7:07 PM
 

If I were a dem I'd want to rewrite history too.

2020 orange level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpg

He was a terrorist who killed Republicans

[1]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020 8:58 PM
 

Not an exaggeration.


Re: Ben Tillman was a democrat.

emoji_events [5]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020 10:19 PM
 

Great statement and true. What’s even more tragic is all of the civil rights legislation passed by the dems has little to no teeth. In fact the Dems do just enough to keep the black vote as a solid voting block. The Republicans have tried to pass legislation that give black people more opportunities to grow personally and professionally. Some people in both parties have their racist. God will judge and punish those people.

Me personally, I don’t see color. I look at the person’s soul. Are the people of integrity and character. My best 2 neighbor’s are black. But none of us see color. We pitch horses , cookout, go to HS football games, sit out side and talk for hours. We occasionally discuss the current situation. We all feel that if the race’s would you stop listening to the media or to far left and far right leaders that keep the race’s stored up, the majority of our people’s would get along much better.

Nuk and Deshaun are we there because of people like Dabo who say kids with talent color did not matter. Now that they are millionaires they can afford to make statements which consider more divisive and does little to unite the race’s. They could make a big difference if they used their voice to promote calm, patience, tolerance and understanding. Instead the issue demands to the very university that educated them and trained for the NFL so they could break the poverty cycle within their families.

“Pay it Forward” Use your voice to promote unity not divisiveness.

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Re: A Black Man's Perspective on Benjamin Tillman....

[4]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020 7:07 PM
 

Now I know why I TU all your posts!

2020 white level member

The only thing wrong with your post ...

[4]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020 7:12 PM
 

Is saying you guess you aren’t allowed to have an opinion

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Re: A Black Man's Perspective on Benjamin Tillman....

emoji_events [7]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020 7:39 PM
 

I'm sure I'll get torn a new one by the regulars on this site for the following post but...here goes.

I'm an alum from '96 and fierce Clemson Tiger fan and lover of all things Clemson. The campus, the beauty, the people, the education offered, the sense of "apartness" that differs us from other ACC schools and especially that other school in Columbia.

However, the time has come to remove and/or rename Tillman and his association with our university. While I accept he was an accomplished man in many aspects of his life, his rabid racism and violent acts towards black people and white people who stood in his way cannot be white washed. In fact, it's no longer acceptable to even place "historic context" markers around the university so as not to erase the past but understand it. Those days are over. Clemson University needs to fully and completely rid itself of all vestiges of Tillman.

Before you all keyboard warrior me...just think and ask yourselves. Do you want your beloved university to be associated in any way with a man who lynched black people? Furthermore, write your state reps and let's change the heritage act so we can also take down Confederate Monuments, change streets and school names away from Confederate fighters and get rid of Confederate Memorial Day.

I am not Antifa. I am not a PC social justice warrior. I am a Clemson grad and know it's time to do the right thing. If we don't....if we hold on to the past (for what reason I don't know) it will hurt our beloved institution every day we don't fix this.


not antifa huh?


Posted: Jun 9, 2020 9:08 PM
 

That sounds exactly like what someone in Antifa would say.

Nobody’s gonna land blast you man. There are several people that want to rename. Some people don’t. Who cares Francis

2020 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg

Thanks for sharing

[1]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020 9:05 PM
 

I’m sure a lot of us found out in a similar way. Myself included.

I think it was trooper Del who opened my eyes to how much of a degenerate scumbag I am for attending Clemson university.

As a white guy, I’ve never heard anyone say Tillman is their hero or that he was a nice guy. People say things like... “it was a different time”. That’s right, we’ve come a long way.

2020 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg

I was against it until I read the wiki on him and wow

[3]
Posted: Jun 9, 2020 9:32 PM
 

Now I say to rename it. It doesn't make the past go away, but I sure don't want THAT history being tied to my beautiful Clemson diploma.

2020 white level member

Clemson Football, the glory days are here!


Re: A Black Man's Perspective on Benjamin Tillman....

[2]
Posted: Jun 10, 2020 1:40 AM
 

When I read the same things that read about who Tillman was years ago, and not knowing exactly where Tiger Nation stood when it came to Tillman, so I've never voiced my feelings of my heart of the man, but I personally feel that Tillman Hall should have been renamed years ago. But it should have been done without any pressure by public opinion in times like now bc I am, and have always been a person that can not and will not cave in bc pressure by anyone at any time. My own family has always said that my hard head would some day cause me grief bc I was the type that would stick my hand in a fire and dare it to burn me, they were so wrong about that part, but I would never cave in to threats from anyone bc all men stand and pee the same as I do, and some sit down and pee like a woman, but I don't fear any man, especially the ones that make threats. But if I had it my way after everything calms back down and gets back to business, I would remove Ben Tillman's name from any building or class room at Clemson university. Name the building Dabo Swinney hall bc, it's only a building, and if the name is changed, it's still only a building!!!

2020 white level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpg


Re: A Black Man's Perspective on Benjamin Tillman....

[2]
Posted: Jun 10, 2020 11:19 AM
 

I heard someone say a long time ago "Those that don't know {their} history are doomed to repeat it".

I believe this is true for me. I see it occur in my life, the lives of people around me and in a wider reflection around the society I live in. The greatness of our Republic was founded through dissent and protest of the nature of equality for humanity. It still goes on. Our understanding of it evolves just as our own maturation and evolution continues as we age in this life. To cling to something from the past that doesn't serve your growth weakens you as a person, society and nation. As Dabo so sagely opined "Iron sharpens iron". It's not easy to grow and evolve, but the alternative is stagnation and death.

My love for you all.

Go Tigers!


Old Main is a HORRIBLE name***

[1]
Posted: Jun 10, 2020 11:37 AM
 



2020 white level memberbadge-donor-15yr.jpg

The right thing, the right name - Freedom Hall

[3]
Posted: Jun 10, 2020 1:32 PM
 

'86 graduate, love all things Clemson, white guy - it is time. Renaming doesn't erase history - but it also doesn't continue to honor those that we should no longer.

Freedom Hall - well Old Main sucks - plus Freedom Hall - a nod to our military heritage, the fact that we are ALL created equal and should enjoy freedom, etc.

Do it now.


A white man's perspective


Posted: Jun 10, 2020 5:48 PM
 

Don't change the name of The Esso Club, Memorial Stadium, Little John, Doug Kingsmore, or Clemson University. These are the only things that impact me post graduation.


Re: A Black Man's Perspective on Benjamin Tillman....

[3]
Posted: Jun 10, 2020 8:03 PM
 

I’d be willing to rename whatever makes my black friends feel comfortable. I’d be more than willing to listen but in return I’d expect to be heard. We all have unique experiences that shape us. We are not different ... we have different experiences .. and in fact we are much the same in that we have ALL been getting screwed by the “system” for too long. Some get screwed by systemic racism. Some get screwed by the “solutions” to it. We need to join together and look at our common enemy that continues to play the black v white, the christian v muslim, the male v female Etc. Who does this to us ? Who benefits ? Who uses the Divide and Conquer strategy to keep us fighting amongst ourselves ?


Re: A Black Man's Perspective on Benjamin Tillman....

[1]
Posted: Jun 10, 2020 11:39 PM
 

Did you purposefully omit some of the most damning information on BRT’s resume? Are you not aware the guy basically ran a posse called the Red Shirts that would hunt down and kill Black people as a sport?


Re: A Black Man's Perspective on Benjamin Tillman....

[1]
Posted: Jun 11, 2020 6:30 PM
 

Grrrrrrr said:

Did you purposefully omit some of the most damning information on BRT’s resume? Are you not aware the guy basically ran a posse called the Red Shirts that would hunt down and kill Black people as a sport?


No.. I did not..

And I am aware of the red shirts...

I'm aware that he was a murdering racist and went to the floors of the U.S. Senate and "bragged about" killing black Americans...

Again we shouldn't 'erase' history because an a$$hat like BRT decided that he wanted treat black Americans like pieces of s**t....

He wasn't the only one and there are other buildings, monuments, statues, and etc named after these people...


You can't remove the past

[3]
Posted: Jun 11, 2020 1:53 AM
 

by renaming it. It pretending it didn't happen. It was a different time,. many years from now people will look back on this time differently. The past is the past, different time, different place. It's that simple.


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