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CU Guru [1405]
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Pelosi's newest offer
Jan 23, 2019, 3:57 PM
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-More than 5.7 billion for border security.
-Possible funding for repairing existing walls and fences.
-No new wall.
OK, so explain what's wrong with that, Trumpers.
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110%er [7020]
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Would she start
Jan 23, 2019, 4:01 PM
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by repairing the wall that's on her state's southern border? I mean since walls are immoral and all. Just curious..
Obviously the above is tongue and cheek though maybe it shouldn't be, and they aren't going to accept anything that does have funding for a border barrier/wall/fence/moat or whatever the hell else we're calling it today..
It's a political game and all anyone cares about is which "team" is winning.
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: Would she start
Jan 23, 2019, 4:03 PM
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But is there any chance of getting it? Trump is clearly losing in the court of public opinion.
What political motivation do the Dems have to give him even an inch of wall?
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Heisman Winner [119553]
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How bout
Jan 23, 2019, 4:14 PM
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Cause the dems voted for new walls under Obama. Obama even called for new walls as a senator.
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: How bout
Jan 23, 2019, 4:17 PM
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I love this so much. Righties always claim Trump wants the same things Obama wanted.
But they hated Obama and treat Trump like the messiah.
Hmmmm... What is it that's different about Obama? Hmmm. Let me think.
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110%er [7020]
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And most people I know were pissed at the Republicans
Jan 23, 2019, 4:18 PM
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for not voting for it. Much the same game that's being played now.. Just on the other side.
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Legend [18003]
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They've even called it a "smart wall"
Jan 23, 2019, 4:08 PM
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which Trump could easily run with and claim he got his "wall." Both sides can claim victory and this dumb shutdown can end.
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110%er [7020]
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Sounds like a bunch of useless words with nothing
Jan 23, 2019, 4:10 PM
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actually earmarked for anything in particular so that everyone involved can create a giant slush fund..
But I'm guessing that whatever "deal" ends up getting made won't actually improve anything at all.
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: Sounds like a bunch of useless words with nothing
Jan 23, 2019, 4:13 PM
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The spending of the money (making sure it goes to the right places) would be up to Trump. Are you saying he can't be trusted on border security?
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110%er [7020]
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Well I don't trust any of them.. So there's that.***
Jan 23, 2019, 4:14 PM
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110%er [7020]
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: BTW..
Jan 23, 2019, 5:21 PM
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If it's part of a deal to end this, it can be assumed Trump agrees to the appropriation. At that point, it's up to the executive to assure it goes to the right place.
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All-TigerNet [12851]
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and they can turn it off the second nobody is looking....
Jan 23, 2019, 4:11 PM
[ in reply to They've even called it a "smart wall" ] |
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you dont have to tear down a "smart Wall"
it wont stop a single future democrat
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Oculus Spirit [79388]
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Bro, you obviously don't realize we can like, put a bunch of
Jan 23, 2019, 4:16 PM
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sensors and stuff out there and achieve the same thing that a physical barrier would. I have no idea how, but technology man.
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110%er [7020]
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That's certainly what's being sold.***
Jan 23, 2019, 4:17 PM
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All-TigerNet [12851]
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Legend [18003]
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Oculus Spirit [79388]
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This is my favorite argument, "They'll get shovels! Or
Jan 23, 2019, 4:34 PM
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ladders!". As if climbing over, or digging under a physical barrier is just as effortless and time efficient as strolling across your yard.
Ok, say we forgo the barrier and go with your smart fence, or whatever. An illegal crossing is detected, now what? Are they more or less likely to apprehend the suspects if they're having to climb over/tunnel under a fence, or if they can just stroll on through?
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All-TigerNet [12851]
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maybe itll be one of those electric underground dog fences
Jan 23, 2019, 4:36 PM
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biggest problem I see is getting everyone to wear the collars.
But even with those, they learn that if you run real fast the shock only lasts for a few seconds.
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CU Guru [1405]
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Oculus Spirit [79388]
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Right, because making their logistics much more
Jan 23, 2019, 4:44 PM
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difficult will certainly be of a benefit to cartels.
Here's the only logical argument against building a wall: Eminent domain. That's one issue with a wall that makes me hesitant. But all of these other absurd excuses are just laughable.
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: Right, because making their logistics much more
Jan 23, 2019, 4:46 PM
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Do you think regular guys control the tunnels?
Cartels do. So of course the wall would give the cartels more business.
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Legend [18003]
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a border agent is alerted and they are picked up
Jan 23, 2019, 4:45 PM
[ in reply to This is my favorite argument, "They'll get shovels! Or ] |
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which is why more money would go to hiring more agents as part of the "smart wall" idea. We have existing fencing, we have natural land barriers, and the areas on the southern border with the least fencing now have the least amount of attempts at crossing (and apprehensions) while still being patrolled.
Most of the illegal immigration in this country is from visa overstays, and we still have more people leaving this country than coming in (legal and illegal), so it's a hard sell to say there is a need for a border wall.
Curious though, is your argument that a physical wall is more needed because it gives the immigrants a better workout? Who is advocating for just letting immigrants "stroll across the yard?" Sure seems like a strawman argument...
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Oculus Spirit [79388]
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You didn’t answer my question though, in which
Jan 23, 2019, 4:55 PM
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Scenario are they more likely to be apprehended? It’s not just a given that you notify border patrol and they’ll ###### em up.
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Legend [18003]
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In your very fair and not at all strawman scenario?
Jan 23, 2019, 5:03 PM
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I guess the wall. Thankfully, that's not the reality of the situation so that answer is meaningless, but it probably will make you feel a bit better, so you're welcome.
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Oculus Spirit [79388]
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lol, ok. Throw some technology out there and git r dun then
Jan 23, 2019, 5:42 PM
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I’ve still yet to have someone explain to me how a wall would not make it a significantly easier job for border patrol, but whatever.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: lol, ok. Throw some technology out there and git r dun then
Jan 23, 2019, 5:49 PM
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Leverage and vantage point. It's a great spot for our archers, snipers, and to drop hot oil. On a serious note, it seems if we have enough man power and infrared that we could just use that in the less crowded areas.
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Oculus Spirit [79388]
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My whole point is you detect them, then what?
Jan 23, 2019, 5:58 PM
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A physical barrier buys you much more time, whereas a ‘smart wall’ just tells you they’re there. Apparently this is an unrealistic issue to bring up though. Is there something I’m missing where they are automatically subdued with the smart wall?
Also, to the point about immigration actually reducing...that’s fine for now, but I don’t think it’s wise to plan future security based on current trends. Especially since there’s been a historical problem with border crossings. Not to mention the unrest in Venezuela right now.
Oh, I forgot my other concern with a wall/fence or whatever....animal migrations. You could Sway me with the impact to animal migrations and the eminent domain issue.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: My whole point is you detect them, then what?
Jan 23, 2019, 6:12 PM
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I guess if there is just a wall they will just dig under it if the man power isn't there to monitor the border. I think those are the areas in the middle of nowhere though. Yeah we need wall where the people generally are. In the middle of nowhere if we have some men patrolling and infrared that would be enough to stop them. Supposedly that's why the Dems want more roads, more drones,more technology, more people patrolling in those areas. The wall seems like a waste in those areas. I have a story about getting busted in the middle of nowhere going to Canada by US border patrol. I was young and had a recent DUI and Canada banned me. They, the US border patrol, got me on infrared and used trucks and ATV's. They thought I was smuggling weed into the US. Nope, I was sneaking into Canada to hangout for a few weeks skiing, partying, and to check out my buddies grow operation in BC. The border patrol said to me after a bit, "Who the F&%$ sneaks into Canada." Told them Canada banned me for a bit. They ran my name saw no warrants, but they saw the DUI and laughed. They basically told me to start walking the other way back into the US and if they caught me again I would serve 4 months or something like that. Needless to say I didn't try again.
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Legend [18003]
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The argument with the wall is about stopping illegals
Jan 23, 2019, 6:43 PM
[ in reply to My whole point is you detect them, then what? ] |
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not "buying more time." Even in this argument, the implicit idea is that the illegal immigrant is captured in both scenarios but only done so 'faster' with a wall. Never mind if that's true or not, I'm not sure anyone is actually making an argument for the wall based on the speed in which the illegal is being caught. Maybe I've missed that argument though.
The point with citing that immigration is actually reducing is to 1.) point out the non-emergency of "illegal immigration" that surrounds the issue of building a wall (and stupidity of shutting down the government) and 2.) point to the idea that there are other much more effective measures that affects the amount of immigration.
Both sides are saying there needs to be more funding for border security, but for whatever reason the republicans are obsessed with the idea that a wall, alone, will solve the issue.
Trump's painted himself into a corner with this issue after turning down the $20 billion offer and moving away from "fences" to keep his base happy and now he's shut down the government over it.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: The argument with the wall is about stopping illegals
Jan 23, 2019, 6:48 PM
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Seems like it would be more efficient just to find ways so they get no services and they can't work illegally in the USA. In that scenario, why would they want to come to the US unless they were smuggling drugs or something of that sort?
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Legend [18003]
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yep, there are lots of better ideas than a wall
Jan 23, 2019, 7:17 PM
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when it comes to fighting illegal immigration, which just makes the obsession over the wall just plain weird.
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Legend [17856]
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When Pelosi and the Democrats agree to cut benefits to
Jan 23, 2019, 8:43 PM
[ in reply to Re: The argument with the wall is about stopping illegals ] |
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illegals WILL be the day Hades freezes over. Heck, there are a few on here who would keelhaul her for allowing that to happen.
And, i mean cut benefits altogether.
Message was edited by: HuntClub®
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Oculus Spirit [79388]
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No, they are not obsessed that a wall alone will solve the
Jan 24, 2019, 9:24 AM
[ in reply to The argument with the wall is about stopping illegals ] |
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problem. Nobody has ever said that. We've been hearing for years that a wall will simply be ineffective, which is demonstrably false, but I think you're missing that larger point.
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Heisman Winner [111292]
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Re: No, they are not obsessed that a wall alone will solve the
Jan 24, 2019, 9:28 AM
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yes, all of the really smart people are saying the exact same thing.
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CU Medallion [59974]
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Re: No, they are not obsessed that a wall alone will solve the
Jan 24, 2019, 10:45 AM
[ in reply to No, they are not obsessed that a wall alone will solve the ] |
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The human trafficking element of this is being lost. That is what really could be curtailed.
But dont let that slow down the left, cause they for sure are not interested in lives being saved. Just more people to vote for them more tax revenue.
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: No, they are not obsessed that a wall alone will solve the
Jan 24, 2019, 11:19 AM
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The human trafficking element isn't being lost at all. We've talked about it on this board a lot.
The wall will probably make it worse. It will almost certainly strengthen cartels by bringing them more business at higher prices. Trump's own Homeland Security department was unable to back up Trump's claim that the wall will dust human trafficking. And plenty of trafficking experts have said they see no evidence it will help, but do see ways it will make it worse.
https://thehill.com/opinion/immigration/425514-border-wall-wont-stop-migrants-but-will-increase-use-of-smugglers
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Legend [18003]
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What's the larger point?
Jan 24, 2019, 4:50 PM
[ in reply to No, they are not obsessed that a wall alone will solve the ] |
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There are more effective measures that can be implemented at a more affordable cost than a wall, yet the wall supporters are obsessed with getting it built. I don't understand the obsession.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: a border agent is alerted and they are picked up
Jan 23, 2019, 5:02 PM
[ in reply to a border agent is alerted and they are picked up ] |
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I agree. We could also just spend 1 billion on top of that to hire 20,000 new additional agents at 50k each to patrol that area with the agents we already do have. That's 10 new additional agents per mile basically. I think we should just beef up the walls where it needs some repairs and extend a touch, and then do all the Dem stuff with technology, road repair, and some agents.
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Legend [18003]
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That's fair, I'd also increase immigration court judges
Jan 23, 2019, 5:10 PM
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and security at ports of entry, since that's where most of the illegal drugs come into the country.
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All-TigerNet [11130]
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All-In [48781]
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: They've even called it a "smart wall"
Jan 23, 2019, 4:12 PM
[ in reply to They've even called it a "smart wall" ] |
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I like the idea of just paying Fox News 10k to say the wall has been built. Trump will think it has and we'll be done with all this.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: They've even called it a "smart wall"
Jan 23, 2019, 4:15 PM
[ in reply to They've even called it a "smart wall" ] |
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How can a "smart wall" just get 10 feet higher and have a beautiful door?
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110%er [9174]
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I wouldn't eat
Jan 23, 2019, 4:22 PM
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Herpuss sy like you would.
-Doc
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: I wouldn't eat
Jan 23, 2019, 4:26 PM
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I love how easy it is to get you triggered.
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110%er [9174]
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Where does the existingwall extend, end-to-ends, Little One?
Jan 23, 2019, 4:29 PM
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-Doc
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: Where does the existingwall extend, end-to-ends, Little One?
Jan 23, 2019, 4:35 PM
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There is no "the existing wall" there are a bunch of walls and fences. They're primarily in the flat desert areas and near cities. For instance there is a 600 or so mile stretch in Texas where such a barrier would be virtually impossible because of the terrain.
But you never actually participate in a discussion, so what was your point in asking?
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110%er [9174]
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Trumps wants one from Tijuana to Brownsville
Jan 23, 2019, 4:42 PM
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Not 5.7B of a repair job that Pelosi has in mind, diverting 3/4trs. of it for special entitlements, and hand-outs in sympathy to the brokedicks the wall would keep out.
Don't bulls hit us, Little Boy....
-Doc
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Standout [345]
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Re: Trumps wants one from Tijuana to Brownsville
Jan 23, 2019, 5:57 PM
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Why should the Dems in the house give a flying #### what Trump wants? They won the house and took back control of appropriations. If he wants something he has to deal and I doubt they will give him anything favorable. He just doesn't have much to offer that won't get him in trouble with his base.
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All-In [47625]
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110%er [9174]
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The Young'n still doesn't know what I was REALLY saying
Jan 23, 2019, 5:50 PM
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His pea head just focused on the literal....
-Doc
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All-In [31830]
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I'm not a Trumper, but Trump's pledge to...
Jan 23, 2019, 5:01 PM
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build a "wall" was the centerpiece of his campaign and he won, fair and square.
Why is it righteous to ignore the will of the people?
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All-In [48078]
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Re: I'm not a Trumper, but Trump's pledge to...
Jan 23, 2019, 5:04 PM
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Is that the will of the people? The will of the people was that Mexico was going to pay us so we could build our wall. That didn't work out.
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Legend [18003]
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and Trump lost the popular vote
Jan 23, 2019, 5:13 PM
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so how do we determine what the true "will of the people" represents?
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All-In [31830]
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I tend to defer to the rules/process laid out in...
Jan 24, 2019, 8:02 AM
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the Constitution.
The point is that he was duly elected and there should be respect for that.
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All-In [48781]
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So were all those member of congress
Jan 24, 2019, 8:52 AM
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and there should be co-equal respect for that.
And if you're suggesting that the electoral college means the "will of the people" can be determined by what less than half of the people want, then you also have to respect that the will of the people who elected Pelosi can frustrate the will of the "not a majority" because that's how the system is set up too.
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All-In [31830]
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I said as much below***
Jan 24, 2019, 9:55 AM
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All-TigerNet [11130]
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Not to mention that it was just some
Jan 23, 2019, 5:33 PM
[ in reply to Re: I'm not a Trumper, but Trump's pledge to... ] |
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dumb shid he made up on the spot while campaigning. Something to get the lemmings the chant.."build that wall!!" not unlike "lock her up!!!". Then to lego onto the original dumbshid he said, he says "....and Mexico will pay for it!" at the next campaign stop. He campaigned in three syllable increments and we fuggin fell for it.
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All-In [31830]
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Hey, I'm with you, the mexico line was stupid...
Jan 24, 2019, 8:00 AM
[ in reply to Re: I'm not a Trumper, but Trump's pledge to... ] |
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and anyone who believed that was a fool.
However, I think most would agree that someone voting for the building of the wall wasn't doing so just because Mexico was going to pay for it.
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All-In [38514]
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All-In [31830]
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exactly....
Jan 24, 2019, 8:07 AM
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that's why Pelosi not being willing to give an inch to Trump and vice versa is anti-democratic.
Pelosi just doesn't want to give Trump any degree of a victory that he can tout next year. But somehow, that is viewed by the media and many people as righteous....and it's not.
In this case, we're strictly speaking about funding a project that they don't think will be effective. We're not talking about changing any voters lives or restructuring the economy (think ACA or some other type of program). We're talking about a capital investment. The dems say they are for a secure border and they frame it that they just disagree on how to secure it. And THAT is exactly where there ought to be a high level of compromise.
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All-In [38514]
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I agree either side being willing to negotiate goes against
Jan 24, 2019, 9:45 AM
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democracy.
But the President just doesn't automatically get what they campaigned on because they are elected.
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All-In [31830]
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Don't believe I ever said that....
Jan 24, 2019, 9:57 AM
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I said "why is opposing what he wants righteous". In other words, there has to be respect for a position he holds that was part of the campaign where he was duly elected.
I never suggested complete deference to it.
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Oculus Spirit [82972]
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I agree with all you say but can’t support anything that
Jan 24, 2019, 9:51 AM
[ in reply to exactly.... ] |
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will help Trump’s re-election.
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Standout [345]
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Re: I'm not a Trumper, but Trump's pledge to...
Jan 23, 2019, 6:02 PM
[ in reply to I'm not a Trumper, but Trump's pledge to... ] |
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First, more people voted against him then for him so the wall isn't the will of the majority of people necessarily.
Second, Pubs had the House, Senate and President for 2 full years and didn't get it done. We just had an election and Dems took over the house. So, if we are using election results as a stand in for what people want, it seems that the majority no longer want the wall or care if it gets done.
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All-In [31830]
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I agree on the second point 100%....
Jan 24, 2019, 8:11 AM
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I don't support the shutting down of the government over this issue.
However, we are where we are and the government is now shut down because both sides are positioning for the election next year. BOTH sides are. The dems don't want to give Trump any degree of a win on this and Trump insists on some degree of a win.
As responded to another post above...this isn't over program that directly impacts the voters or restructures the economy, etc....like healthcare, for example. If you take the dems at their word, they want a secure border too and they just disagree on how to do it. That is not the kind of thing you shut down the government over from either side.
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All-In [42000]
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Flow, c'mon, man.
Jan 24, 2019, 8:17 AM
[ in reply to I'm not a Trumper, but Trump's pledge to... ] |
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That's not the "will of the people." Sure, he won fair and square, but he didn't win the popular vote and millions of American stayed home. That's not some mandate to build a wall.
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All-In [31830]
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He was duly elected....period...
Jan 24, 2019, 8:33 AM
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seriously, that's the end of the discussion on a point like this.
He isn't any less elected because people stayed home, or because he ran against a Clinton, etc...
What I'm saying is that folks just can't treat the idea as a crazy idea because he was duly elected, in large part, because of his stance on immigration. Agree or disagree with his position, the fact that it was a big part of his campaign and that he won can't be argued.
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All-In [42000]
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Yes, I do see eye-to-eye with you there.
Jan 24, 2019, 2:10 PM
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But we also can't call it the will of the people. In fact, the majority of Americans don't want the wall and they're speaking through Congress on this... and Congress has the final say.
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All-In [31830]
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If they can override a veto they have the final word...
Jan 24, 2019, 9:37 PM
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Otherwise they are going to have to work with the POTUS.
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All-In [48781]
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Because members of congress are elected to represent
Jan 24, 2019, 8:48 AM
[ in reply to I'm not a Trumper, but Trump's pledge to... ] |
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the people in their districts and members of the senate are supposed to be the barrier against straight democracy?
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All-In [31830]
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All-In [48781]
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Maybe that's what I meant, maybe not
Jan 24, 2019, 10:28 AM
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smarty pants
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All-In [31830]
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Just giving you the benefit of the doubt....
Jan 24, 2019, 10:47 AM
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while also giving you a anal-retentive correction.
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Legend [17856]
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Re: Pelosi's newest offer
Jan 23, 2019, 5:27 PM
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What's right with it? Border security funding...is that an increase in funding? Possible funding to repair what already exists? Is that like putting a coat of paint over the mold and thinking you did all that was needed? Oh, and the best part is, you can only hope we do that. LOL
Message was edited by: HuntClub®
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110%er [6101]
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Everything, Wall or no deal. Increased security is a ruse
Jan 23, 2019, 6:52 PM
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If Nancy Pelosi crosses in front of my car don’t look for skid marks lol
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Everything, Wall or no deal. Increased security is a ruse
Jan 23, 2019, 7:05 PM
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I bet you always have skid marks.
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All-In [31830]
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CU Medallion [59974]
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Re: Pelosi's newest offer
Jan 23, 2019, 8:49 PM
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Hold the SOTU in Laredo right at the Bridge System. Shut it down, like hold it right in the middle of the 10-12 lanes. Podium and all, right there and then have Border Patrol standing in the background.
Then let the rebuttal come from Pelosi behind her gates and wall of her house in CA cause god knows she isn’t in DC working to open the government.
Solution. Done.
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CU Medallion [59974]
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Re: Pelosi's newest offer
Jan 23, 2019, 9:19 PM
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And should say “latest”. Young lad, that Lander education is holding you back.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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They are trying to get Trump to cave on the wall.
Jan 25, 2019, 12:08 PM
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This no longer has anything to do with what is best for the country. (As if it ever did.) Both Trump and the Democrats are using the well-being of the country hostage to manipulate voters to support one side or become disaffected with their own side.
And people keep perpetuating the two party system. Everyone who votes that way deserves it. Nearly everything that people argue about is contrived.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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And he caved....***
Jan 25, 2019, 2:50 PM
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