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Lot o points [155905]
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Lemme axe an immigration question from a different angle.
Jun 19, 2018, 11:54 AM
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In the good old USA right now, as far as I know, if a parent(s) commit a crime and are incarcerated, and there are minor kids at home with no known relatives to serve as legal guardians, the kids become wards of the state.
There's no uproar about this. There's no demand for the children to be kept united with their incarcerated parents. What's different here to you?
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All-TigerNet [12161]
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personally I think that there is a feeling
Jun 19, 2018, 11:58 AM
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that those affected really aren't breaking the law, that the federal govt is being heavy handed and immigration policies are unfair to those trying to get in.
I dunno
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CU Medallion [73569]
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by that, it means
Jun 19, 2018, 12:00 PM
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were aren't catching and releasing, hoping only 5% actually return for their court date.
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110%er [6101]
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All-In [40656]
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Its probably a good thing feelings dont dictate policy
Jun 20, 2018, 8:54 AM
[ in reply to personally I think that there is a feeling ] |
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Because whether or not you FEEL like something is a crime... it IS a crime to illegally cross a border.
Facts dont give a #### about your feelings.
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CU Medallion [73569]
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ya but supposedly
Jun 19, 2018, 11:59 AM
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their living in a 2x2 dog cage with access to dirty water and moldy bread and have all lost 50% of their body weight. Oh and the guards are flogging them as well.
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CU Medallion [64837]
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Re: ya but supposedly
Jun 20, 2018, 11:30 AM
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Sounds like DixieVindicator's childhood.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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Well see, in a lot of those cases the kids have the benefit
Jun 19, 2018, 12:00 PM
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of white privilege, so the negative impact to them is negated entirely.
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Oculus Spirit [78889]
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entering the country illegally
Jun 19, 2018, 12:00 PM
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is not a crime, it is a right
:max_bytes(150000):strip_icc()/eating-treadmill-5925a9545f9b585950af169d.gif)
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All-In [48078]
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Is that what white privilege looks like?****
Jun 19, 2018, 12:04 PM
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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Hopefully, the new Trump Policy will continue into
Jun 19, 2018, 12:01 PM
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November at least.
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All-In [47795]
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Pelosi is banking on it***
Jun 19, 2018, 12:02 PM
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CU Medallion [73569]
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110%er [6101]
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Not everyone is aware that Sessions decided to enforce existing law.
Jun 19, 2018, 8:52 PM
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Imagine that, we're actually enforcing a law. Remember this?
https://youtu.be/VQJUy57-Sfg
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Lot o points [155905]
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All-In [39020]
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Ah, if you look closely you can always see that
Jun 19, 2018, 12:28 PM
[ in reply to Hopefully, the new Trump Policy will continue into ] |
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the one and only principle leftists truly hold is 'gain power.'
'This is a travesty, an OUTRAGE, worse than Nazis....but I hope the children are kept in cages long enough for my party to win a mid-term election."
Don't blame you, though. With the economy, and Trump turning out to be quite the diplomat with regard to both trade and the military, it's really the only shot you've got. Shame you blew your load in June. There will be at least six new impotent faux outrages by November at this rate.
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Legend [18023]
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Okay, now I'm pretty sure your shtick is just satire
Jun 19, 2018, 3:20 PM
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You gave it away with calling Trump "quite the diplomat" with trade considering what the stock market did today and why (not to mention everything else he's done in regards to our allies recently).
Pull back just a bit on that part and your act will sound more authentic and real.
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All-In [39020]
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Believe what you will.
Jun 19, 2018, 3:27 PM
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The fact that you're talking about what the stock market did *today*, and not "this year," or "during Trump's term," kind of makes my point. Jobs are coming back, GDP at a level Obama claimed was impossible. Or maybe he was right and Trump really does have a magic wand.
It's high time we reexamine who our actual allies are. Hint: not the countries slowing turning their countries to caliphates.
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Hall of Famer [24767]
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In the last six days, the stock market has lost this year's
Jun 19, 2018, 3:34 PM
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gains... Basically, back to square one. A trade war with China...? You can expect further retraction.
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All-In [39020]
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Square one is after massive gains in '17?
Jun 20, 2018, 10:09 AM
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Still up almost 15% in the last year, even with all the fear mongering about how fighting for our interests is going to lead us to ruin.
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Legend [18023]
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The economy is doing well, no doubt.
Jun 19, 2018, 3:37 PM
[ in reply to Believe what you will. ] |
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How much of that is on Trump is open for debate.
Not really what my point was with bringing up the stock market as it was meant to point out the irony of you calling Trump "quite the diplomat" on Trade when his very failure to be a diplomat had a very visible effect on the stock market today.
If we are reexamining our "actual allies" it would seem Trump is eyeing N.Korea, Russia and China over our G7 allies? Is that right?
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All-In [39020]
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I don't know about Trump, but IMO Russia is a natural ally
Jun 20, 2018, 10:13 AM
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in the coming years. Germany, France, and the UK are edging ever closer to the abyss, with Canada not far behind.
LOL at the idea that peace talks mean North Korea is poised to become an ally, or would be an ally worth having.
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All-TigerNet [12851]
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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Lock em up!***
Jun 19, 2018, 12:49 PM
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All-TigerNet [12851]
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or...........
Jun 19, 2018, 1:11 PM
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deny entry pending hearing.
Family stays together.
Problem solved.
except that doesnt play well on election commercials.
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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This new policy is a Trump/Miller designed policy that
Jun 19, 2018, 1:29 PM
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they feel will play well with the base. The whole point is to provide his base with images of crying children being separated from their parents. It's what they think Trumpzis want to see to motivate them to get out and vote. The tax cut isn't playing well, so this is all they have to try and motivate their base.
Look for Trump to double down on this type of thing as we head into the mid terms in November.
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Lot o points [155905]
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I think you're going too easy on them.
Jun 19, 2018, 1:37 PM
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I think that Republicans are planning on using the children as a high protein food source for their expensive racing thoroughbreds eventually. Just watch, once this whole thing blows over there will be truck after truck running from these concentration camps to the Iams factory, and at the next Kentucky Derby these fat, greedy, evil GOP'ers will be hoping their horse wins all knowing the high price paid for that race to even happen.
They're evil man...evil. You're hitting the nail on the head. Don't stop now, you're just starting to change hearts and minds.
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Hall of Famer [24767]
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Careful... That horse might eat the straw man first.***
Jun 19, 2018, 3:36 PM
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110%er [5508]
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Re: Lemme axe an immigration question from a different angle.
Jun 19, 2018, 12:01 PM
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Criminal citizens being separated from their kids is not being reported 24/7. The constant coverage is whipping the rubes into a frenzy.
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All-In [47795]
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I'm shocked that some liberal judge hasnt shut down
Jun 19, 2018, 12:06 PM
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the detention yet. all it takes is one limp wristed yahoo to declare separation of the kids to be cruel and unusual.
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Heisman Winner [137912]
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2 things.
Jun 19, 2018, 12:09 PM
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1. Severity of Crime: an American citizen has to commit a pretty hefty crime to be imprisoned for an extended period of time, and more often than not, it's something of a violent nature, or drug related (which is a whole different discussion regarding personal use, trafficking, etc.). In many or even most of those cases, who is going to make an argument that a child isn't better off being away from that parent(s)? Illegally crossing the border, on the other hand, and absent of additional contraband smuggling, isn't a violent crime. In the purest sense, it's a parent or two trying to find a better life for his/her child. Of course, some small percentage of illegal border crossers have ulterior motives--drug/contraband smuggling, terrorism, gang affiliations, etc. We're not talking about them here though. The common refrain is "well, just do it the legal way, and there won't be an issue." Sure, but when the system and process for legal immigration has years of backlog and no guarantee (not even close) of admittance at the end of the tunnel, it's understandable why some of these people take matters into their own hands. Picking crops for a couple bucks an hour under the table and relative safety from gang/cartel violence is worth the risk.
2. Asylum: many of the border crossers aren't sneaking at all; they're seeking asylum at designated points on the border. And many of these aren't Mexican, they're Central American, of which much is cartel warzones. It's straight up criminal to separate families in these cases, and it has and continues to happen.
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CU Medallion [73569]
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asylum seekers
Jun 19, 2018, 12:13 PM
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Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen denied on Sunday multiple published reports that federal authorities have been separating immigrant children from their parents seeking asylum when apprehended at the border.
"This misreporting by Members, press & advocacy groups must stop. It is irresponsible and unproductive. ... You are not breaking the law by seeking asylum at a port of entry. For those seeking asylum at ports of entry, we have continued the policy from previous Administrations and will only separate if the child is in danger, there is no custodial relationship between 'family' members, or if the adult has broken a law. ... We do not have a policy of separating families at the border. Period."
Now if you are sneaking across the border, you are breaking the law.
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All-In [42154]
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And she lied.***
Jun 19, 2018, 12:14 PM
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CU Medallion [73569]
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Lol***
Jun 19, 2018, 12:40 PM
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Heisman Winner [137912]
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All-In [31891]
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The story says the boy was taken because the...
Jun 19, 2018, 2:06 PM
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father didn't have enough proof that he was the father.
To me this is really getting into the weeds. Isn't the government in a tough spot here, considering the level of child trafficking taking place at the border.
After reading the story and reading the DHS rules...the DHS seems to have been consistent with their rules. They separated the child because there were concerns about the man being the boys real father. We have no way of knowing all of the details here. I chose to believe that the gov isn't just separating children from their parents for no reason at all.
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All-In [47795]
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Re: 2 things.
Jun 19, 2018, 12:14 PM
[ in reply to 2 things. ] |
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1) the severity of the crime doesn't matter if the accused is a flight risk. Illegal immigrants are the prima facie case for "flight risk"; also, these detentions/separations are not very long from what I've read.
2) if an immigrant comes to a port of entry and requests asylum, they are not separated. presenting yourself for asylum at a port of entry is legal. they are only separated if they are caught entering illegally.
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CU Medallion [73569]
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he doesnt believe her, lol***
Jun 19, 2018, 1:00 PM
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Legend [17914]
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You missed something
Jun 19, 2018, 12:26 PM
[ in reply to 2 things. ] |
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Break probation and back you go. That doesn't mean you just don't show, or commit a felony... just don't pay your probation fees and see what happens.
Maybe our GOVT should enforce an entry fee...
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All-In [42154]
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I'll give this a go
Jun 19, 2018, 12:12 PM
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1. In the scenario you stated, usually the immediate relative is easily acquired without having to house the child. In the immigration scenario, there might be a relative in the U.S., but often there isn't. In most cases, they have to stay in the detention facility.
2. In your scenario, kids aren't locked in cages (we can dress up the word all we want but they're cages... even the detention facilities admitted they were but asked that the media please not call them that).
3. In your scenario, parents are encouraged to plead guilty so they can get their kids back.
4. In your scenario, the parents are sent back to another country sometimes while a kid remains behind locked in a facility.
5. In your scenario, the kids are generally put in the care of people who know what they're doing. That hasn't always been the case.
6. In your scenario, you're talking about if a parent is found guilty and sent to prison. Unless the kid is in immediate danger or the parent is charged with a crime like murder that requires them to wait in jail until trial, they generally get out of jail and back to their kids. In the immigration case, the kids are taken away before the parent is ever found guilty. This is a problem with parents seeking legal asylum.
7. In your scenario, taking the kids away isn't meant as a punitive deterrent to crime.
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All-In [42154]
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In addendum...
Jun 19, 2018, 12:16 PM
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The immigrants are committing misdemeanors. Do you see a lot of kids being taken from their parents over misdemeanors?
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All-In [47795]
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yes, if they are a flight risk***
Jun 19, 2018, 12:18 PM
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All-In [42154]
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For a misdemeanor?
Jun 19, 2018, 12:22 PM
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No, they aren't. Especially a first time misdemeanor. Usually that's a simple PR bond and released immediately unless they can just pay the fine on the spot.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: For a misdemeanor?
Jun 19, 2018, 12:24 PM
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Yes, they are.
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All-In [42154]
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No, they very much are not.
Jun 19, 2018, 12:28 PM
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For those who may remember, I used to spend every day in Charleston County bond court reporting on bond hearings. Anyone brought to the court with a first-time misdemeanor always received either a PR bond or small bond, or they paid the fine immediately. Their kids were not taken from them and they were never given a high bond or denied bond for fear of a flight risk.
"Flight risk" started getting thrown around for felonies and repeat offenders, particularly drug dealers with a lot of cash.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: No, they very much are not.
Jun 19, 2018, 12:31 PM
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Yes they are.
There are articles online right at this very second about people being held on a misdemeanor.
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All-In [42154]
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If a person is deemed a flight risk...
Jun 19, 2018, 12:33 PM
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On a misdemeanor, the solicitor would have to argue:
-They have the means to flee.
-They have shown they are willing to do that.
You're not going to convince a judge on a first-time misdemeanor charge to keep a person sitting in jail without bond, and they certainly aren't going to take away that person's kid unless it's been proven they are a danger to that kid.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: If a person is deemed a flight risk...
Jun 19, 2018, 12:40 PM
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Ok, the hundreds of articles online right this very second are all wrong and catahoula is correct.
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All-In [42154]
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Okay, I'd love to see...
Jun 19, 2018, 12:46 PM
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A case that meets this criteria:
-A first-time misdemeanor (one charge) committed by an American citizen.
-A judge who denied bond and said the suspect must remain in jail until trial due to being a flight risk.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Okay, I'd love to see...
Jun 19, 2018, 1:06 PM
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You have google?
I pulled up article after article on my first try.
As for me, i said ok above, I'm not going to continue arguing about your ORIGINAL false point when i know you were wrong and will only try to move the goalposts.
We've all been wrong, its ok.
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All-In [42154]
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C'mon man
Jun 19, 2018, 1:08 PM
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You're making yourself look foolish. You're telling me that you aren't eager to copy and paste that link to prove me wrong? It'll take just a few seconds.
C'mon. You made the claim. Prove me wrong.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: C'mon man
Jun 19, 2018, 1:09 PM
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Actually, you made the claim that "no they aren't."
Try again.
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All-In [42154]
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This is one of the greatest examples
Jun 19, 2018, 1:21 PM
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On P&R I have ever seen of someone getting called to task on their claim and then unable to prove it yet still insisting they are right. Here's a summary of this discussion between you and me:
Me: Americans are not denied bond for a first-time misdemeanor for fear of being a flight risk.
You: Yes they are.
Me: No, they aren't.
You: Yes, they are.
Me: I have experience in this area because I used to spend every day in bond court as part of a job. I know how the bond system works. I never saw it happen.
You: I don't care, it still happens. There are articles!
Me: I'm telling you, it doesn't happen.
You: There are articles that say you're wrong! How can you be right with all these articles?!
Me: Okay. Show me one.
You: I'm not gonna do that! You do it!
Me: C'mon. That's foolish. Just show me one.
You: Uh uh. You do it.
You know there aren't any articles. If there were, you would have already linked one. Just admit you were wrong and move on. I get it; you didn't know going into this that I had experience in this area. That's okay. As you said, it's okay to be wrong.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: This is one of the greatest examples
Jun 19, 2018, 1:23 PM
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Start with the doj.gov website, bud.
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All-In [42154]
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Oops
Jun 19, 2018, 1:31 PM
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You realize the DOJ website is www.justice.gov, right?
You didn't actually research this claim, did you?
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All-In [42154]
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Let me also help you with the fact that...
Jun 19, 2018, 1:35 PM
[ in reply to Re: This is one of the greatest examples ] |
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The DOJ isn't handling misdemeanors in states and local municipalities. Hope that helps.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: This is one of the greatest examples
Jun 19, 2018, 1:25 PM
[ in reply to This is one of the greatest examples ] |
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Hmmm...you didn't make the claim "no they dont?
So, prove that it NEVER ever happens, bud.
And not just in Charleston, SC
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All-In [42154]
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Why don't you help me along?
Jun 19, 2018, 1:29 PM
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I hope I don't have to explain to you that in this case, proving the existence of these cases falls upon you as proving a negative would mean I would have to present every single misdemeanor case ever tried in the United States. Whereas you only have to produce a few cases.
But since you said it came up immediately on my Google search, why don't you help me? I tried these search parameters:
"suspect denied bond for first time misdemeanor"
And
"misdemeanor denied bond flight risk"
All I'm getting are legal websites that explain how the bond procedure works, which I already know. Those sites also explain that first-time non-violent misdemeanors usually get low or PR bonds.
So how am I missing all these articles? What were your search parameters?
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All-In [29036]
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You're smarter than that
Jun 19, 2018, 1:41 PM
[ in reply to Re: This is one of the greatest examples ] |
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You are literally asking him to prove a negative.
He says something doesn't happen. You can choose to believe him or not, but the second you pipe in with "it happens all the time, there are tons of articles" then the ball is in you court since you can "easily" prove your case with evidence.
And I'm not taking sides on the actual issue, you may well be right, but you made the provable claim, so go ahead, prove it.
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All-In [47795]
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but these are illegal immigrants
Jun 19, 2018, 12:32 PM
[ in reply to No, they very much are not. ] |
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they are proven flight risks. less than 10% show up for their hearings.
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All-In [42154]
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I don't think you know what you're arguing here.
Jun 19, 2018, 12:37 PM
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Here's what happens with flight risk cases: the person is held in jail without bond, or a very high bond is levied. They aren't doing this to immigrants.
The reason immigrants aren't being released immediately is due to the back log in the courts. The max sentence (so flight risk isn't in this equation) is six months, and the judge generally gives them time served when they are finally sentenced. At this point, they aren't even considering the flight risk part. They give them six months and are done with it.
And their kids weren't taken away for fear of flight risk.
For an American citizen who commit misdemeanors, they must receive their bond hearing in 24 hours. There is no backlog in this case. It is during that 24 hours that a judge determines flight risk.
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All-TigerNet [11630]
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Cool, when American Citizens start crossing the border...
Jun 19, 2018, 1:14 PM
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illegally from Mexico then we can have this argument.
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All-In [42154]
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Welcome to the argument.
Jun 19, 2018, 1:15 PM
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Go back and read each point so you actually know what's being discussed.
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All-In [48078]
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Just to play devil's advocate..
Jun 19, 2018, 12:26 PM
[ in reply to For a misdemeanor? ] |
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Wouldn't these illegals be a flight risk? Where do we put them? Is there any punishment?
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Just to play devil's advocate..
Jun 19, 2018, 12:28 PM
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I'd think they'd be a flight risk. Either just blending into the U.S. or back to their homeland.
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All-In [42154]
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Well, yeah, but...
Jun 19, 2018, 12:29 PM
[ in reply to Just to play devil's advocate.. ] |
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Wouldn't that flight risk be back to their home country?
I'm not saying to not prosecute them. I'm saying you don't have to strip their kids from them.
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All-In [48078]
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Maybe they just stay in the USA illegally?*****
Jun 19, 2018, 12:52 PM
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Lot o points [155905]
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Re: I'll give this a go
Jun 19, 2018, 12:33 PM
[ in reply to I'll give this a go ] |
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1. In the scenario you stated, usually the immediate relative is easily acquired without having to house the child. In the immigration scenario, there might be a relative in the U.S., but often there isn't. In most cases, they have to stay in the detention facility.
I'm talking about where there aren't easily acquired relatives in the US in my hypothetical question. The govt is called into duty to take care of them, which is what they're doing in these cases.
2. In your scenario, kids aren't locked in cages (we can dress up the word all we want but they're cages... even the detention facilities admitted they were but asked that the media please not call them that).
The barriers as I understand it are intended to separate age groups and sexes. If this wasn't the case, Trump would be accused of encouraging child rape the first time a 17 year old boy knocked up a 14 year old girl.
3. In your scenario, parents are encouraged to plead guilty so they can get their kids back.
Actually parents are encouraged to not break the law in the first place, so as to maintain full custody of their children. I've heard nothing of them being "encouraged" to plead guilty....the ramifications of their decision may make the guilty choice easier, but that's not coercion.
4. In your scenario, the parents are sent back to another country sometimes while a kid remains behind locked in a facility.
Yes....if there's no verifiable proof of a relationship between the claimed parent and child, and/or the child's safety is in doubt. This is looking out for the welfare of the child, which I thought this debate was about.
5. In your scenario, the kids are generally put in the care of people who know what they're doing. That hasn't always been the case.
Bro....the US foster care system and those caretakers in it are far from perfect. As a percentage of the population, there's probably less mistreatment of these immigrant kids than those US citizen kids in foster care. Again though, the delta in the reaction from the public is stunning.
6. In your scenario, you're talking about if a parent is found guilty and sent to prison.
No, I'm talking about long hold times awaiting trial too.
-Unless the kid is in immediate danger or the parent is charged with a crime like murder that requires them to wait in jail until trial, they generally get out of jail and back to their kids.
Because they're American citizens, generally not flight risks, and are easy to find if they try to avoid trial. Not so with non-citizens.
-In the immigration case, the kids are taken away before the parent is ever found guilty.
Much like a parent in my hypothetical who is incarcerated while awaiting trial, and is found to be a flight risk.
-This is a problem with parents seeking legal asylum.
You keep saying this, but I have seen zero to indicate widespread instances of those seeking asylum at approved border checkpoints being held and separated from their kids. There may be an isolated or event or two, but they were not instances of official policy being followed and not exceptions proving any kind of rule.
7. In your scenario, taking the kids away isn't meant as a punitive deterrent to crime.
Nor is this----it's the law being followed and applied when someone else commits the crime and breaks the law. You twisting it like this is akin to saying that DSS taking kids away from a habitual drug abuser is a way of using DSS to deter drug abuse.
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All-In [42154]
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Re: I'll give this a go
Jun 19, 2018, 12:43 PM
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1. Yes, those cases exist but not usually. And what you're describing will usually apply to after a parent is sentenced and locked up, not arrested for a misdemeanor where they are released on bond within 24 hours.
2. Surely there are better ways to do this than chain-link cages.
3. Texas public defenders have come forward to say that the parents are encouraged to plead guilty because they think they can get their kids back quicker. Remember, the sentence is usually six months and time served.
4. Not really. See the link I posted in a new thread that shows there isn't a good process for reunification.
5. I don't disagree but it's definitely better than the reports coming out of this company hired to handle these immigrant kids.
6. That isn't happening in a misdemeanor. They aren't holding a parent in jail until trial unless they are dirt poor as #### and can't pay a small bond. If a parent is sitting in jail until trial, it's probably a felony or multiple charges (also repeat offender), and that's different than the scenario we're discussing.
And as for asylum, yes, they are still being taken away.
7. Jeff Sessions made it very clear in May that this was the case.
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Lot o points [155905]
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Most of these fall into "agree to disagree",
Jun 19, 2018, 12:47 PM
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but you got some 411 on this one? "And as for asylum, yes, they are still being taken away."
If you already posted it, sorry. It's just completely different from everything I've read, unless you're referring to those crossing illegally first, and then filing for asylum, which I don't really call "asylum" since it's a bastardization of the asylum process in the first place.
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All-In [42154]
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Re: Most of these fall into "agree to disagree",
Jun 19, 2018, 12:51 PM
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Some of the asylum seekers are ignorant of the process. From one report I listened to, they often run towards border agents because they are seeking asylum without realizing they may have broken the law.
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Lot o points [155905]
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Cata....c'mon man.
Jun 19, 2018, 1:00 PM
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I can admit that a good portion of these people are fleeing indescribable living conditions.
Can you admit that a good portion of these people know EXACTLY what they're doing and are coached/instructed to (pick one or a combination):
a) bring unrelated kids with them and claim them as family to get leniency (catch and release).
b) Claim asylum on the grounds of personal safety issues which simply don't exist to have a better chance of being allowed in.
I know most of them are coming from poor living conditions, but these aren't Neanderthals wandering out of their caves into civilization for the first time. There's a definitive pipeline of info that makes its way between our country and their countries, and it includes when to come, when to stay put, where to cross, and what to say when you get here. There's a reason illegal immigration dried up when Trump was elected. The pipeline suggested that it wasn't a good time to cross (despite that sadly just being a rumor).
It's a big part of why I don't really give much credence to the "ignorance of the law" excuse you just offered.
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Legend [15492]
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Re: Cata....c'mon man.
Jun 19, 2018, 1:05 PM
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You're arguments are sincere and rational. I think the premise though is sort of apples vs oranges as in the case of illegal immigration the crime, and it is a crime, is an effort to save their children.
That as opposed to selling crack or robbing a liquor store.
I'll ask only 1 question. Would you break the law to feed your children?
I would, in a heartbeat if that's what it took. That's why immigrants breaking the law is different. Motive is important.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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Many of the people selling crack could make the same
Jun 19, 2018, 1:09 PM
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arguments about just trying to save their children.
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Lot o points [155905]
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If my kids were starving and you had food and I was out
Jun 19, 2018, 1:10 PM
[ in reply to Re: Cata....c'mon man. ] |
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of options, you could very well end up a dead man.
I'd still expect to be prosecuted for murder.
Prostitution, drug dealing, petty and grand larceny, murder----all crimes that have been conducted by individuals in the name of providing their kids with a better life. All still illegal.
I truly don't get the mental gymnastics required to overlook this particular crime.
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All-In [28802]
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These are reasons for lenient sentencing
Jun 19, 2018, 1:42 PM
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Or, they may even be reasons to deprioritize prosecution. But they aren't reasons that make a crime not a crime, and which no longer make you subject to prosecution.
But a lot of this really does come down to people thinking it's OK to break immigration laws. I think many people also believe people should be allowed to seek asylum based on economic reasons, rather than just out of fear of persecution or political violence.
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Legend [15492]
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Re: If my kids were starving and you had food and I was out
Jun 19, 2018, 1:48 PM
[ in reply to If my kids were starving and you had food and I was out ] |
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of options, you could very well end up a dead man.
I'd still expect to be prosecuted for murder.
Prostitution, drug dealing, petty and grand larceny, murder----all crimes that have been conducted by individuals in the name of providing their kids with a better life. All still illegal.
I truly don't get the mental gymnastics required to overlook this particular crime.
It's really very simple, look at the circumstances. You have people who in some cases have WALKED a thousand miles to find a better life for themselves and their kids. That as opposed to someone to lazy to work who sells crack to "feed their kids".
It's apples and oranges.
Further, these are real human beings. They're willing to endure the unendurable in order to better themselves. Yes, they are breaking the law. It's a speeding ticket.
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Lot o points [155905]
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If speeding ultimately resulted in the interstate system
Jun 19, 2018, 1:53 PM
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being all but undriveable, you'd view speeding tickets in a different light as well.
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All-In [42154]
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Oh, I don't doubt some of that happens.
Jun 19, 2018, 1:17 PM
[ in reply to Cata....c'mon man. ] |
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I don't doubt for a second some of them are gaming the system.
But for me, I don't like punishing those who aren't gaming the system because of the ones who are.
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Heisman Winner [137912]
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All-In [28802]
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If this happened the way they say...
Jun 19, 2018, 1:44 PM
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then it either wouldn't be a result of this new policy, and/or it would be a mistake. I'd be curious to know if they were able to reach the authorities responsible and what the authorities' explanation was. It could have something to do with the Flores decree where the children can only be held together with the parents for a certain amount of time.
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Lot o points [155905]
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tangential scenario that happened for kids' protection
Jun 19, 2018, 1:46 PM
[ in reply to Re: Most of these fall into "agree to disagree", ] |
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according to the article, based on not being able to verify the parent/child relationship. Again, if this is all about the well-being of the kids, it should matter that we care that they aren't abducted/rented/sold pawns being used to gain entry.
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All-In [28802]
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From what I've read...
Jun 19, 2018, 1:59 PM
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there was a law that was passed in 2008 and enacted in the Obama administration that may be responsible for some of this. The law was intended to prevent human trafficking, but may also make it harder for parents who've entered the country illegally with their children to be reunited with the children.
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Heisman Winner [111575]
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Re: Lemme axe an immigration question from a different angle.
Jun 19, 2018, 12:30 PM
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except crossing the border is a misdemeanor and incarcerating the children is completely unnecessary, more just a d!ck move than anything. And in the case of families seeking asylum, they are committing no crime when turning themselves in at the border, so taking their kids is just a double d!ck move.
But maybe if some of these kids could kick a soccer ball, they would be let in with open arms.
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All-TigerNet [12851]
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so, what do you do with the parents or minors? let them go?
Jun 19, 2018, 12:32 PM
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then they never show for the asylum hearing and are absorbed into the illegal population.
Trump was elected to secure the border.
He is doing so
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Heisman Winner [111575]
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Re: so, what do you do with the parents or minors? let them go?
Jun 19, 2018, 12:37 PM
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illegal immigration is the least of our problems, it is at a 40 year low. People who voted solely for that reason are likely severely misinformed. Some of them are just D!cks.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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How many immigrants are you planning to house?***
Jun 19, 2018, 12:51 PM
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All-TigerNet [12851]
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Its a big enough issue for the left to roll around on the
Jun 19, 2018, 1:21 PM
[ in reply to Re: so, what do you do with the parents or minors? let them go? ] |
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floor kicking and screaming for the last week.
so I ask again.
I dont care if its ONE family. What is the solution.
you say its inhumane
I ask you for your solution
you say its as bad as the holocaust
I ask you for your solution.
You say its child abuse
I ask you for your solution
Now you say its not that big of a deal (the least of our problems)
I will ask one last time...... what is your solution?
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Lot o points [155905]
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Heisman Winner [111575]
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Re: I agree.....
Jun 19, 2018, 12:38 PM
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unless you can kick a soccer ball, then you get a free education and are entitled to pissand moan about other immigrants.
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All-In [48078]
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Aren't they banned even if they get a misdemeanor charge?***
Jun 19, 2018, 12:40 PM
[ in reply to I agree..... ] |
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All-TigerNet [11196]
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I appreciate the heck outta ya, Obed, but IMO
Jun 19, 2018, 12:54 PM
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thats a dumb question to ask, because in truth, you know the answer. This is just a bad policy and a cruel decision by this administration. It wasn't Obama or the democrats, it was this White House and this Attorney General that chose cruelty over reason.
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Lot o points [155905]
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I don't know the answer, and I'm left to assume that
Jun 19, 2018, 1:02 PM
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a) People prioritize illegal aliens over citizens.
b) People ultimately don't care about the actual issue as much as they do that issue's ability to vilify Trump and the GOP.
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All-TigerNet [11196]
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If you're being obtuse you can assume a). In
Jun 19, 2018, 1:28 PM
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reality this is not a less than or greater than equation, criminals and aliens are not equal. Would you prefer to have a housekeeper who is a grandmother who happens to be from Honduras or Daryl the crack dealer from a trailer park. I'm choosing Abuela every time.
b)Trump is a parrot, he didn't come up with this. I can guarantee you this came from Stephen Miller as a way to get Trump's wall built. As for the GOP...what's left of the GOP? Trump's cult of personality killed it. If the GOP wants to reclaim itself, they need to run a credible candidate in 2020 and get Trump out of office.
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Lot o points [155905]
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Re: If you're being obtuse you can assume a). In
Jun 19, 2018, 1:56 PM
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1) I may be obtuse for a lot of reasons, but some random straw man non-sequitur isn't one of them. Also, aliens aren't criminals, but illegal aliens are, by definition.
2) I don't share your optimism that Trump is using this as leverage to get a wall built. I wish I believed he was that smart.
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All-In [48078]
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The consensus of punsits is that the wall is a huge factor.
Jun 19, 2018, 2:04 PM
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He says the Dems need to approve the wall and a deal can be made, but the wall has to be in there. No deal can be made without the wall. He says it all comes down to the Dems now.
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Legend [15492]
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Lot o points [155905]
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That points to a budgetary standoff in September over
Jun 19, 2018, 2:13 PM
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wall funding more than any relation to this issue.
This feels more like Jeff Sessions trying to crack down and enforce the laws that are in place.
I think it would actually be slightly brilliant if the two were strategically tied, but I just don't feel like that's the case.
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All-In [48078]
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Trump says now.
Jun 19, 2018, 3:12 PM
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He says it is up to the Dems to agree on the wall now. The issue of these kids now is done if the Dems will play ball. If I were the Dems I would stand my ground though.
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All-TigerNet [11196]
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I see a difference in the original two scenarios and the
Jun 19, 2018, 2:26 PM
[ in reply to Re: If you're being obtuse you can assume a). In ] |
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DOJ used to, as well. There is no denying the cruelty of this new zero-tolerance policy, and it is purposely divisive politically. Why would anyone support it? The UMC even filed a complaint against Sessions yesterday for violating the Book of Discipline.
I just don't buy the legal/illegal argument about the policy when real people and families are being hurt by it.
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CU Guru [1797]
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There is a huge difference
Jun 19, 2018, 1:27 PM
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There is no analogy between this and what happens to children when their parents are incarcerated. Most of the immigrants are seeking asylum, which is not illegal. The analogy also doesn't work for the people who are not there because they are seeking asylum, since they are having their children taken away before they are even charged with a crime, much less gone through any legal proceedings. So a better analogy would be something like this: There are 30 people from Canada tailgating together before a Clemson game. Some cops walk by and see several bags of marijuana. No one will admit to owning any of them, so the cops detain all the adults and take them to the police station. But before they take them, they put all the children in a car and take them to a separate police station. They don't tell the parents where they are taking the children and they don't tell the children what is happening. Since it's a game day and there is no room anywhere else, they take the children to a police station in Greenville and put them all in one cell. They hold the children there indefinitely, some for days, some for weeks, until they can figure out which parents are guilty and should be deported back to Canada and which ones did nothing wrong.
There would be an uproar, and there would be more than that when the police explained to the community that they didn't have to separate the families, but it was a new policy they were adopting to deter foreigners from bringing drugs into the country. Of course there is no chance any of that would happen, but this scenario is a lot closer what is happening than what happens to children now after their parents are found guilty and incarcerated.
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All-In [28802]
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You're wrong from your very first sentence
Jun 19, 2018, 1:35 PM
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The whole reason the children are being separated is because the parents are being incarcerated for a crime. This has been the case since the Flores consent decree. The only difference between the policy now and the policy of the past is that less of the adults entering the country illegally with children are being given a free pass while they seek asylum. It's still a crime to enter the country illegally even if you're seeking asylum.
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CU Guru [1797]
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Lot o points [155905]
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Zero tolerance (aka being arrested and detained if you
Jun 19, 2018, 3:18 PM
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illegally enter the country, no exceptions) IS a deterrent.
Zero Tolerance = Deterrent
Children separated while parents are detained for breaking the law is an unfortunate side effect of said deterrent, but it is not THE deterrent.
Child Separation =/= deterrent
You're jumping over the point.
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All-In [28802]
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That isn't what he said
Jun 19, 2018, 6:08 PM
[ in reply to The innocent children are being separated as a deterrent ] |
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He said that their zero-tolerance policy was a deterrent. But that policy isn't to separate kids from their parents. The deterrent is the fact that you'll be arrested for entering the country illegally, even if you have kids with you. You should consider that part of what happens when you commit a crime and are arrested is that you'll be separated from your children, but that doesn't mean a policy of separating children from illegal immigrant parents was adopted as a deterrent.
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Legend [15492]
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Re: That isn't what he said
Jun 19, 2018, 6:41 PM
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zero policy means all illegal immigrants will be prosecuted. One of 3 reasons kids are taken from parents is if they are being prosecuted.
It's like the one hand didn't know what the other hand would do. They knew that all kids would be separated from parents who are being criminally prosecuted and they knew all parents would be prosecuted.
duhh
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Legend [18023]
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Here's what is clear...
Jun 19, 2018, 6:45 PM
[ in reply to That isn't what he said ] |
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They knew before taking on a policy of zero-tolerance would result in children being separated from their parents. They went ahead with the policy change because the separation of parents and children also works as a deterrence. They did not see it as an unwelcome outcome because it also works as a deterrence.
In other words, they see both the zero-tolerance policy and the separating families as deterrence.
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Lot o points [155905]
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Why do we act like that the separation of children from
Jun 19, 2018, 6:52 PM
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parents is an inevitability that is foisted upon people by our government? It's not...when it happens, it's a reaction to a decision that the parents made to break the law and enter our country illegally.
The bottom line is that it's their choice if this happens or not. We aren't going and scooping up families in Mexico under the cover of darkness against their will. They're coming here of their own free will while knowing it's illegal, and any consequences for those actions are first and foremost on their shoulders.
If you don't think crossing our border at their leisure and ignoring US law should be a criminal offense, then put it on the table and let's discuss it. But ultimately this blaming of the law keepers for the perpetrators' crimes is ridiculous.
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Legend [18023]
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I think it's that "reaction" that is the issue.
Jun 19, 2018, 7:39 PM
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If the government suddenly decided that it's now policy to implement a "zero strike" policy on all crimes and they all be punishable by death, your argument would still make sense, right? It's your choice if you commit a crime so it's all on you on the punishments you get no matter how harsh.
An extreme example to make the point, but then I also would argue this is a pretty extreme reaction to asylum seekers committing a federal misdemeanor.
Let me ask you a question--If an asylum seeker is granted asylum, is it right that they have a federal conviction on their record simply because they crossed illegally to seek asylum?
Also, keep in mind:
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/how-obtain-protection-us-embassy-consulate.html
"Under U.S. law, asylum seekers can apply only if they are physically present in the United States (or at least at a U.S. border or other point of entry)."
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Lot o points [155905]
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Correct...I read that this morning when I was researching
Jun 19, 2018, 7:45 PM
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the topic. It's perfectly legal to show up at an official border crossing checkpoint and apply for asylum. There's no arrest for taking that route, and that's the way the govt instructs asylum seekers to do so.
I'm sure a portion of those crossing don't know the rule, but I refuse to ascribe ignorance to all of them. I think a large portion are applying the old "forgiveness is easier than permission" adage to their strategy, and up until recently, they probably weren't faulty in thinking that was a sound strategy.
Once the word gets around (and it will) that having children in tow is no longer a guaranteed way of getting treated with kid gloves (no pun intended), this is pretty much going to become a non-issue, and crossings with kids should become a trickle. Just my opinion.
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Legend [18023]
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You may very well be right about all that
Jun 19, 2018, 7:56 PM
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and I think Trump and Company are thinking the same thing which is why they are using it as a deterrent.
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All-In [47795]
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"Most of the immigrants are seeking asylum"???
Jun 19, 2018, 1:36 PM
[ in reply to There is a huge difference ] |
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do you have a link to this?
I don't think that is correct.
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All-In [42154]
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Yeah, I don't think anyone knows that yet.
Jun 19, 2018, 1:46 PM
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Maybe the number is out there, but I don't think we know how many are seeking asylum and how many are just jumping the border.
I think one of the big problems is many asylum seekers don't know they're breaking a law when they cross.
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Lot o points [155905]
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All-In [42154]
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Completely off topic but in relation to what you just said.
Jun 19, 2018, 2:06 PM
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The last two times I was pulled for speeding, I immediately apologized to the officer for not paying attention and wasting his time. Did this before he had a chance to say anything. Got a verbal warning in both cases and told, "That's okay."
Gonna stick with that tactic until it doesn't work.
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Lot o points [155905]
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Yep, I've found that to work occasionally too.
Jun 19, 2018, 2:08 PM
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Just saying "you got me, my bad" doesn't always work, but it works sooooo much more than some BS story about your speedometer being miscalibrated or your cruise control being faulty.
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Legend [15492]
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Re: Yep, I've found that to work occasionally too.
Jun 19, 2018, 2:12 PM
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Agreed, every time I ever got pulled over I apologized. Most times they just gave me a warning.
I actually pulled out in front of a car in 2013, totaled my car and their car....I apologized to the cop when he showed up, told him it was my fault, I was looking at the GPS. He said, "In 15 years of law enforcement your the first person to actually tell me the truth." He shook my hand and didn't give me a ticket.
He could tell i was a nice man. 
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110%er [9174]
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That filled the mouths of Flower, Feel Licks, CUage17
Jun 19, 2018, 2:32 PM
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CSO and Cata, etc. with Gorilla Glue..
-Doc
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Oculus Spirit [83116]
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There ya' go again. Falling on the sword for Trump.
Jun 19, 2018, 2:49 PM
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You ain't the only one, either. I know many smart, educated, well read people who do the same thing over and over.
It's like you feel you have to make a choice, Trump or the idiots in the country on the very far left.
Well, you don't really don't have to make this choice.
The difference here is pretty obvious. Most people look on crossing the river with your children as pretty daring and a risk worth taking for a better life. As opposed to getting incarcerated here for things that are worse.
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Lot o points [155905]
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And again, I'm asking a question about an individual issue
Jun 19, 2018, 2:55 PM
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and you're turning it into a forum on Trump. I know many smart, educated, well read people who can't un-blur that line either.
As for your last line, yeah it's daring and worth a risk. It's also illegal, as it should be. Sadly, up until the last 10 years or so, most Democrats were in agreement on the need for border enforcement.
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Oculus Spirit [83116]
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Turning it into a forum on Trump?
Jun 19, 2018, 4:35 PM
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Trump is the President. He ordered this new Zero Tolerance policy. When you asked your question on this one issue, you were defending the policy, right?
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Lot o points [155905]
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If someone spoke about ACA being a good policy,
Jun 19, 2018, 3:25 PM
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were they automatically a shill for Obama and all he stood for? If someone thought no child left behind was a good concept, were they automatically a shill for Bush and all of his policies?
Nope, and neither is discussing the merits of zero tolerance border enforcement "falling on the sword" for Trump.
You're smarter than this....it's taking political discussion and just making it overly simplistic and sophomoric. I'll discuss whatever issue you want on the merits of the issue, but doing the partisan hack "YOU CAN'T AGREE WITH ANYTHING TRUMP DOES OR YER A TOTAL BUTTBOY" isn't even interesting.
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Oculus Spirit [83116]
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I agree with Trump on some things. You seem far ahead of me.
Jun 19, 2018, 3:34 PM
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Maybe I'm wrong.
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Legend [18023]
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Legend [15492]
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Re: And again, I'm asking a question about an individual issue
Jun 19, 2018, 5:33 PM
[ in reply to And again, I'm asking a question about an individual issue ] |
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and you're turning it into a forum on Trump. I know many smart, educated, well read people who can't un-blur that line either.
As for your last line, yeah it's daring and worth a risk. It's also illegal, as it should be. Sadly, up until the last 10 years or so, most Democrats were in agreement on the need for border enforcement.
You realize that Obama deported way more than Trump or Bush, right?
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Lot o points [155905]
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Re: And again, I'm asking a question about an individual issue
Jun 19, 2018, 5:39 PM
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I've heard it many times. I believe it's a stat that works great if you get creative with the math and don't figure those 1.3M DACA kids into it.
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Legend [15492]
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Re: And again, I'm asking a question about an individual issue
Jun 19, 2018, 5:40 PM
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I dont agree with Trump on a lot of things, but I don't want to be a buttboy. 
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All-In [39020]
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And the goal of the policy is to make them reconsider
Jun 19, 2018, 3:33 PM
[ in reply to There ya' go again. Falling on the sword for Trump. ] |
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whether that risk is actually worth taking.
The idiots on the 'very far left,' control most of Europe, Canada, Australia, the Democratic Party, the mainstream media and academia. We literally did have to choose, in 2016, between the virtue signaling, nutjob feminist, SJW "very far left" and Trump. We chose wisely.
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Oculus Spirit [83116]
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The idiots on the left don't control the three major
Jun 19, 2018, 3:42 PM
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networks, ABC, NBC, CBS. They are left of center and elitist on some things including guns, abortion, and snatching kids at the border.
Hillary isn't far left, though, many of her supporters were. Bernie and many of his followers are far left.
I don't think we chose wisely, though, I think we learn from this. Trump has made a mockery of the WH. Any president who calls any cop a coward and sez his heroes are the one's who didn't get captured or calls peoples' wives losers is just embarrassing to me.
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All-In [39020]
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Odd, then, that the three major networks are constantly
Jun 20, 2018, 10:23 AM
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pushing the edges on cultural marxism, and cancelling even *popular* shows that have a conservative or centrist voice.
Your 'embarrassing,' argument seems to be the inverse of Bush's "guy you'd like to have a beer with." Equally irrelevant. Trump's blunt nature is quite refreshing to some, so it balances.
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110%er [9785]
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votes***
Jun 19, 2018, 4:06 PM
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