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All-TigerNet [13190]
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Questions for the pro life folks out there
May 13, 2013, 7:13 PM
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I will start off by saying that I am pro choice, however, I get the other side of the argument, and I can see how perfectly logical people could be pro life.
Let's pretend we live in a country where abortion is illegal. If this is the case, then the only logical way to start is that life starts at conception, and an unborn child has the same rights as a born person.
1. How would this be tracked? Would a woman be required to register the child after she misses her first menstrual cycle or would mandatory pregnancy tests be required. If life starts at conception, the woman would be responsible for anything that happens to the child in her womb, or would this not be the case.
2. How would miscarriages be handled? Would they be investigated as potential homicides?
3. Would all pregnant women be required to take mandatory drug tests? If the unborn child has the same rights as a "born" child, then assurances must be made the drugs/ alcohol / nicotine is not being forced on the child in utero.
4. Would women be required to take pre natal vitamins? Would the woman would be responsible for providing proper nutrition to the child in her womb?
Overall, even if you think the above questions are stupid, what, as a pro life supporter, would be the woman's responsibility to the unborn child?
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Questions for the pro life folks out there
May 13, 2013, 7:17 PM
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Great questions for which I do not have an answer. Prod needs to take the reins here.
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All-TigerNet [14751]
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I'll answer your final question
May 13, 2013, 7:25 PM
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To not actively kill it or have it killed?
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CU Guru [1319]
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Questions for the pro-Eugenics folks out there
May 13, 2013, 7:41 PM
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Why are black babies disproportionately aborted?
Why is this celebrated as if a great relief to the country?
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Rock Defender [53]
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Maybe they are disproportionately conceived out of wedlock?***
May 14, 2013, 2:08 PM
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Hall of Famer [24629]
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Re: Questions for the pro life folks out there
May 13, 2013, 7:41 PM
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The only thing needed regarding a child in the womb is for mothers and society to value life and the unborn and keep doing what we have done since eternity with regards to pregnancy and child bearing. That seemed to work pretty well until the liberals made infanticide the new wave of birth control.
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CU Medallion [60200]
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much of this already happens
May 13, 2013, 7:47 PM
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didn't a woman get charged with murder of her unborn child after eating/drinking rat poison? Seems like I heard about that on the radio recently. And yeah, a woman can be charged with child abuse if she does drugs while pregnant.
Also, I know if you hit a pregnant woman in a car and the fetus dies you can be charged with manslaughter/murder.
There's probably a bunch of answers to your questions if you do an online search.
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All-In [28802]
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somehow we got along that way for decades
May 13, 2013, 7:52 PM
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without regulating pregnancy in the ways you described. Making abortion illegal wouldn't mean making everything but being the most responsible mother illegal, it would just make intentionally killing your child illegal.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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I'm really not trying to make this political
May 13, 2013, 7:56 PM
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You must admit, that a lot has changed since 1973 in terms of science. How do you judge if someone intentionally or unintentionally killed their child? Obviously, medical abortions would be illegal, but as you know, people were having abortions well before Roe V Wade. I just don't see how a 1 sentence, don't intentionally kill your unborn baby law would be enforceable. The current abortion laws are well defined, what would the anti abortion laws look like?
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CU Medallion [60200]
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well, think about parents whose BORN children die
May 13, 2013, 8:04 PM
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like the SIDS (Sudden Infant Death Syndrome), or crib death - how do you tell there if it is "natural" or something the parents caused?? I suppose the medical science is out there to determine things like that today.
Or the weirdos who refuse to take their kids to the doctor for religious reasons, and the kid dies....not that much difference between pre-natal and post-natal care in many instances.
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All-TigerNet [14751]
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you nailed it. his questions attempt to put one side in a
May 13, 2013, 8:36 PM
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box to make that side seem ridiculous, then says "I'm not trying to politicize this"
If you don't want to politicize it then don't, talk about the science, talk about facts, and talk about the rights of a pregnant woman's convenience weighed against the rights of the unborn's life and limb.
Should they have to take pills? Does a 5 year old HAVE TO take flinstones vitamins? Give me a break.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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A few things
May 14, 2013, 12:04 AM
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First off, you ability to be abrasive and obnoxious is second to none.
Next, other than attacking me, you fail to answer a simple question. What does an anti abortion law look like. What are the mothers responsibility to the unborn child, other than not "intentionally" killing it?
I listed a few questions, you seem to think they are stupid, and that's fine. The questions I are things that I would be concerned about. Is I mentioned at the bottom of the post, if you think they are stupid, then again, what are the mothers responsibilities? Do you have anything to add to this conversation, other than just being a jerk?
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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The final paragraph was mangled by my iPad
May 14, 2013, 12:35 AM
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Original:
I listed a few questions, you seem to think they are stupid, and that's fine. The questions I are things that I would be concerned about. Is I mentioned at the bottom of the post, if you think they are stupid, then again, what are the mothers responsibilities? Do you have anything to add to this conversation, other than just being a jerk?
Revised:
I listed a few questions, you seem to think they are stupid, and that's fine. The questions I am asking are things that I would be concerned about. As I mentioned at the bottom of the post, if you think they are stupid, then, again, what are the mothers responsibilities? Do you have anything to add to this conversation, other than just being a jerk?
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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Oculus Spirit [97633]
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All-In [38925]
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I'm more concerned with what happens to women
May 13, 2013, 8:00 PM
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that have to abort or die themselves.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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Also a tough question that would have to be handled
May 13, 2013, 8:01 PM
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Is there medical exceptions? Who decides what qualifies as a medical exception? Is their an exception for non survivable birth defects?
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Legend [17999]
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I believe most late-term abortions are "health of mother"
May 13, 2013, 8:12 PM
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reasons.
Could be wrong on that.
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All-In [38925]
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alot of early term ones are also. I hear alot about
May 13, 2013, 8:25 PM
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abortions being about irresponsibility... seem to forget the women that HAVE TO do this.. would never have thought about abortion .. yet have to make this decision because there is no other answer.
Must be nice to never had to face that decision and throw judgement at those that have.
I know if a late a term abortion has to be performed usually its a lot harder to get it legally that if only 6 weeks along.
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All-TigerNet [14751]
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You are arguing against a phantom
May 13, 2013, 8:38 PM
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99% of pro lifers support life of woman exception, if not more exceptions.
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All-In [38925]
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honey, if you thinks thats me argueing.. you dont know any-
May 13, 2013, 8:54 PM
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thing.
But I believe the thread was about il-legalizing abortion, and illegal is illegal.
Do we forgive the thief because his family is starving?
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All-TigerNet [14751]
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Legend [17999]
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Not to necessarily confuse the issue more, but...
May 13, 2013, 8:09 PM
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We also would have to ban the death penalty, federally, if we did so with Abortion.
On the issue of abortion though, questions of incest and rape always comes into play as well. If you outlaw abortion, and a woman is raped, you are making her live with the rapist's baby inside of her for 9months. I understand the logic of making her deliver the innocent life, but for 9months she's living in a hell. Logically, it makes sense, but ethically it's conflicted.
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All-TigerNet [14751]
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Why? That makes no sense. An unborn child has
May 13, 2013, 8:38 PM
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not been tried and convicted of any crime.
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All-In [38925]
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I'm guessing you've never been raped and had to deal
May 13, 2013, 8:56 PM
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with that torment.
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All-TigerNet [14751]
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I wasn't replying to his rape part, it was to the
May 13, 2013, 10:55 PM
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Death penalty part.........
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Legend [17999]
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Besides the logic of "pro-life"....
May 13, 2013, 11:49 PM
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If there is even a 1% chance that you put an "accidentally" put an innocent man to death, then that's state sanctioned murder. It also costs more than life in prison, so there's absolutely no need for it to exist. It would be an easier change to make than making abortion illegal.
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Heisman Winner [137636]
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I CAN TYPING.***
May 13, 2013, 8:49 PM
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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I thought about that cartoon as I hit the post button***
May 14, 2013, 10:58 AM
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All-In [40864]
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I'm pro death, so I can't answer***
May 13, 2013, 9:06 PM
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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My answers...
May 13, 2013, 9:25 PM
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1. It should not be tracked. We don't need any more government bureaucracy. I understand the question, but just because I am not in favor of abortions, it does not mean that I consider it my business nor the governments's job to walk women from conception to the birth.
2. If we're not tracking pregnant women, then we don't know that a miscarriage takes place. And if we did, I see no need to investigate.
3. Again, no. Same reason why we aren't tracking the first two.
4. No. Same reasons.
Let me say, I, like you, understand the other side of the argument. These questions are obviously coming from the idea that if abortion is illegal, then we must enforce the law. I don't want to be nor do I want the government to be that involved in our lives. Let people live the way they choose to live.
However, the problem is the way it is now, abortion is way to accessible and convenient. I often hear the line from abortion supporters that "abortion should be legal and rare." Problem is, it's not rare. It is way too convenient and used mostly as birth control. It is not rare, but rampant. We let the unborn pay the price for our irresponsibility.
And while I know many women are haunted by this choice the rest of our lives, too often when the time for the choice to be made, rarely are we confronted with the horror of what we are doing. It becomes the easy thing as opposed to the struggles and difficulties we may face financially or socially in the future.
Only when things like the Philadelphia abortion doctor come out are we faced with the ugliness of abortion. Abortions should not be as casual and convenient as going to the dentist.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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I agree with you
May 14, 2013, 12:31 AM
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In my life, because of my former profession, I have been asked for advice twice about the abortion. While I am pro choice, both times I did everything in my limited power to convince the young women to have the baby, and if they couldn't handle the responsibility, to give it up for adoption. In both instances, they decided to have the baby. One young woman gave the baby up for adoption, the other young woman kept the baby. I connected them with proper councilors, and told them I would help them in any way possible. While I ultimately believe it should be a woman's choice, I detest abortion.
However, before I could get on board with a ban on abortion, I would want to see what exactly it specifically entailed. It's easy to be anti-abortion, it's much harder to state specifically what that means, how the law is going to be interpreted, and how it is going to be enforced. Before adoption was legal, it was still being performed. I know pro choice people bring up dirty back alley abortion clinics, but plenty of reputable doctors performed abortions as long as you had enough money and you had the right connections.
Again, I find it difficult to support something I find vile, to the point of being evil, but don't think the "no abortion honor system" would work. There would have to be guidelines. Show me the specifics, and I would seriously consider joining your camp.
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All-In [34823]
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I think most folks understand the situation and the issues.
May 14, 2013, 7:08 AM
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I certainly am sympathetic to both sides. The rhetoric gets overheated, and you get the mental images of the rabid feminist baby-killer, gleeful at every terminated pregnancy, and the old white guy who doesn't know crap about the subject railing against the very idea of an abortion ever taking place.
There are examples of women aborting their babies going back thousands of years.
Allowing it to be a private matter seems to be the best approach. Hope that people can be humans, good humans.
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All-In [26968]
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I don't know about all that. Let's just not kill children.
May 14, 2013, 8:05 AM
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That would be nice.
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CU Guru [1581]
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The fundamental flaw in your thought process
May 14, 2013, 9:16 AM
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in forming these questions is that proactive steps need to be taken to protect a person's rights. My right to free speech needs no proactive regulation. If, by chance, someone takes specific actions that deny me the right to free speech, I can seek retribution in many ways including the courts. In fact, any individual can utilize these same mechanisms on my behalf.
The same is true to life. If a person has knowledge that another person was denied their right to life, they can seek retribution on the now dead person's behalf. In days past, it was common for individual citizens to seek arrest of another with local authorities by official testimony. People considered it their duty to be the investigators and the witnesses. Today people seem to think all law enforcement must begin entirely with peace officers.
So, no, there is no benefit in official tracking of unborn children. Yes, people will get away with murdering their unborn children - well, in civil systems anyway. God doesn't miss a thing!
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Rock Defender [53]
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IMO, these questions avoid an important distinction.
May 14, 2013, 9:30 AM
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The scenarios you are describing involve the involuntarily or natural termination of a pregnancy -- bad luck, poor health, risky behaviors or, at the worst, extreme negligence. And while the latter of those may have criminal repercussions in certain circumstances none of them are the same as abortion, which involves the voluntary, intentional and induced termination of a pregnancy.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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I suppose it goes back to this
May 14, 2013, 10:57 AM
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Do the "unborn" babies have the same rights has a "born" person. Some not so out of the mainstream politicians seem to think so. If abortion is murder, then is neglect manslaughter? Take Rick Santorum, he won a few states in the Republican primary, and he believes that abortion is murder, and that women should not be able to abort their babies even in the cases of incest and rape. If Roe V Wade is overturned, something is going to have to fill the void. Will it go back to the states or will there be a federal ban on abortions. If it does go back to the States. I'm interested in the details, and no one, as of yet, has been able to provide anything other the "don't kill babies" which is a nice sentiment, but not enforceable and open to crazy political interpretation.
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All-In [28802]
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this is really not as complex as you're making it
May 14, 2013, 12:43 PM
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Prohibition of abortion was enforceable in the past, and there is really not much gray area between natural terminations of pregnancies and intentional abortions. In those cases where it's unclear, I don't think most would be interested in delving deeply into women's lives.
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Rock Defender [53]
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A girl has a one night stand. She has zero insurance
May 14, 2013, 12:56 PM
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and works as waitress or is just a student.
That child will more than likely be on public assistance and she will too for more than likely 18 years. Could you face that if you are the lady? When you are a student getting a 4 year degree? When you are looking at a bright future?
So I have kind of gone off the farm, but I have a hard time with when it becomes life and not just mucus waiting to become flesh. I am not a scientist and I wouldn't want to determine that amount to time, but there has to be a way to determine when mucus and mush become tissue/human.
With Obamacare, this instance will not occur, so then the argument goes back to, what is the reason for getting an abortion? Rape and incest are the only two I can think of.
I am unsure on how I feel about this and this crappy post shows that.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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Really, you don't think so?
May 14, 2013, 1:34 PM
[ in reply to this is really not as complex as you're making it ] |
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That's fine, before I would support an abortion ban I would like so see that on paper. You are making this much simpler than seems. You are going to fill the void of Roe V Wade, with something as vague as, don't intentionally kill your unborn baby, something that is open to wild fluctuations of interpretations. You can't blame me for wanting specifics.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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Another part of my issue is that you want it both ways
May 14, 2013, 1:50 PM
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Let me see if I have it right, please correct me if I misinterpret your stance on abortion.
Abortion = Murder
Life starts at conception
You are telling my that a fetus is a person and then you are saying, well, really they are only a person in terms of having the right to not be intentionally murdered. Then you are saying, well, you can't really investigate if they were intentionally or unintentionally murdered because that would be an invasion of privacy (there are several ways to cause abortion other than surgery)
If a fetus is a life, then shouldn't it receive all the rights afforded to an American citizen, or is it some sort of weird life / cluster of cells hybrid, depending on what is more convenient?
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CU Medallion [50635]
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no income tax deduction
May 14, 2013, 2:34 PM
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for a dependent until birth
score 1 for the irs
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