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All-In [26968]
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Drunk-driving illegal immigrant kills Colts LB..
Feb 6, 2018, 11:12 AM
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The President and other has pounced on the fact that the killer was in the US illegally. Curiously absent from the angst is the fact that he was drunk.
I wonder how many people have been killed by illegal immigrants so far this year, compared to how many have been killed by alcohol?
I won't hold my breath waiting on tweets from politicians about that.
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Heisman Winner [119684]
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One is a health issue, other a security issue
Feb 6, 2018, 11:27 AM
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Not a valid comparison
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All-In [34102]
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It just highlights why the argument is wrong.
Feb 6, 2018, 11:35 AM
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The argument being: "If only we built a wall, these terrible immigrants wouldn't be killing people with their cars."
In actuality, that is a drunk driving issue--a well-known cause of countless avoidable deaths--not an issue with illegal immigrants, who statistically are less likely to commit crimes (I'd guess including DWIs) than US citizens.
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CU Medallion [60033]
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Re: It just highlights why the argument is wrong.
Feb 6, 2018, 11:46 AM
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Had he not jumped the border illegally he wouldn’t have been drunk in Indy. Pretty simple.
Your argument if it wasn’t him it would have been someone else is ridiculous.
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All-In [34102]
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Re: It just highlights why the argument is wrong.
Feb 6, 2018, 12:34 PM
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Your argument if it wasn’t him it would have been someone else is ridiculous.
Funny, I don't remember making that argument.
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All-In [46816]
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What caused the crash?
Feb 6, 2018, 1:11 PM
[ in reply to Re: It just highlights why the argument is wrong. ] |
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Him being an illegal immigrant or him being drunk?
The answer to that question will tell you which part is of importance in this scenario
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CU Guru [1878]
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Oculus Spirit [79427]
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That's not his argument though
Feb 6, 2018, 2:08 PM
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His argument is that if someone who wasn't supposed to be here in the first place wasn't here, he wouldn't have been in position to kill the two dudes driving drunk.
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All-In [46816]
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One can make that same argument about ALL CRIME
Feb 6, 2018, 2:16 PM
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In America
Unless they are Native American
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All-TigerNet [13360]
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Yes!!! ALL CRIME by illegal aliens is preventable!!***
Feb 6, 2018, 2:37 PM
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Orange Blooded [4974]
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All-In [26968]
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I don't understand what you mean.
Feb 6, 2018, 11:49 AM
[ in reply to One is a health issue, other a security issue ] |
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Are you saying the fact that alcohol kills many thousands of people each year is not important, or not as important, or not something that should be tweeted about, or...?
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All-TigerNet [13360]
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Got me thinking- What would the libs think
Feb 6, 2018, 11:55 AM
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If there were “sanctuary” cities where drunk driving wasn’t legal, but the city’s officials and lawmen refused to enforce drunk driving laws?
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CU Medallion [60033]
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Re: I don't understand what you mean.
Feb 6, 2018, 11:56 AM
[ in reply to I don't understand what you mean. ] |
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Alcohol=Legal
Drunk Driving=Illegal
Illegal Immigration=Illegal
Not sure I have seen anyone praising drunk driving.
Pretty sure our President doesn’t partake in alcohol and is a good amabassador for being sober.
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Heisman Winner [111495]
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Re: I don't understand what you mean.
Feb 6, 2018, 12:02 PM
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what you fail to understand is that his immigration status had no bearing on the choice to get behind the wheel intoxicated, but then again I doubt you care.
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110%er [5623]
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Re: I don't understand what you mean.
Feb 6, 2018, 10:26 PM
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If he had been drunk in Guatemala where he belonged he would not have murdered two Americans!
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All-In [26968]
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It is amazing and alarming
Feb 6, 2018, 12:02 PM
[ in reply to Re: I don't understand what you mean. ] |
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how something that is legal kills so many people and ruins countless others' lives. Is there anything else legal that has that kind of negative impact on people?
Why would anyone praise drunk driving? I don't understand that as a response to me here.
I have heard the President say he doesn't drink alcohol, and that is terrific. I don't know about being an ambassador, because I don't hear him talking about it much. He could have been a really good ambassador against alcohol today if he chose to be. My post wasn't about the President in particular, though.
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Oculus Spirit [78876]
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religion.***
Feb 6, 2018, 12:05 PM
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Lot o points [155795]
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All-In [26968]
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Oy, you tryin' to get me goin' today.
Feb 6, 2018, 12:08 PM
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I'm leaving that one alone.
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All-In [48078]
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CU Medallion [73569]
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i heard he was a christian
Feb 6, 2018, 11:52 AM
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Illegal christians kill people!!
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All-In [34102]
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^^^This post helpfully illustrates Prod's point.
Feb 6, 2018, 12:37 PM
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The real danger to life wasn't his religion OR his status as an illegal immigrant. It was drinking and driving.
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All-In [26968]
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Actually, my point had more to do with
Feb 6, 2018, 12:47 PM
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The fact that people, particularly politicians, don't seem to care that much about the trail of death alcohol leaves behind.
Also, drinking/driving is only responsible for a portion of the number of people killed by alcohol. Less than 20%, I believe.
I did not intend to make any sort of partisan point about illegal immigration and all that.
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All-In [34102]
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Not sure that we're saying different things.
Feb 6, 2018, 1:18 PM
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You noted that the President and others pounced on the illegal-immigration thing, but not the drunkenness thing.
I am in agreement on that point.
Maybe I'm biased because drunk driving and not an illegal immigrant killed my dad. But the numbers show that my situation is much more common than the illegal-immigrant-killing-people situation.
So yes, people should be highlighting the drunk driving issue.
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All-In [26968]
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I'm sorry to hear that.
Feb 6, 2018, 1:21 PM
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Yes, we are saying very similar things...I just think your statement colored it a little differently than mine did, and you started with "Prod's point," so I just wanted to make sure I wasn't misunderstood.
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All-In [26968]
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After thinking, I can be more specific here...
Feb 6, 2018, 2:04 PM
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You seem to be saying that the death should not be blamed on illegal immigration. I have not attempted to make any point regarding whether illegal immigration should be blamed.
My point was on what was missing from the reaction to the incident, not a negative comment on what actually consisted the reaction.
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Oculus Spirit [79427]
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Didn't he already have a DUI conviction, among other things?
Feb 6, 2018, 1:22 PM
[ in reply to Not sure that we're saying different things. ] |
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And had been deported twice already, yet was back again? How do you just gloss over the fact that he's illegal in that case? Previously deported multiple times, previous DUI conviction, and the fact that he was able to get back here illegally is just a footnote? I don't think so.
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Lot o points [155795]
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There seems to be a basic lack of acknowledgement in
Feb 6, 2018, 1:27 PM
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this case that were he and his truck not physically occupying that exact location on the planet at that moment in time, these men would still be alive. The dui thing is secondary and seems a bit like the wookie defense being deployed here.
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All-In [34102]
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It's the takeaway that's in error.
Feb 6, 2018, 1:36 PM
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The takeaway is supposed to be: Illegal immigration is costing us lives. But if drunk driving deaths are really the concern, illegal immigration is hardly the cause.
To use a direct analogy, if the guy had blown through a toll without paying, the death doesn't prove that we need better enforcement of toll-paying, EVEN THOUGH breaking that rule is the only reason the guy was where he was when the accident happened.
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Lot o points [155795]
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you look at it on a case by case basis.
Feb 6, 2018, 1:42 PM
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In this case, the path of least resistance that would have taken these victims out of harm's way would have been basic immigration enforcement. Booze is allowed in this country. The driver was not. Ergo, fixing the booze issue, while still necessary, is the more complicated, harder to solve problem of the two.
If a convicted felon gets accidentally released from prison due to a clerical error, and shoots someone during a subsequent home robbery, what do you try to fix first.....making sure that clerical error never happens again, or gun control reform? One's a helluva lot easier than the other.
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All-In [34102]
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No, you absolutely don't look at it on a case by case basis.
Feb 6, 2018, 1:47 PM
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Think about what happens if you do that.
Some illegal immigrant saved an American citizen's life. I don't have a news story for you. I'm saying it probably happened. Or let's imagine it happens today.
Are you honestly going to say that we should reconsider immigration policy based on the fact that one illegal immigrant saved a life, and that the person would be dead were it not for the person being here illegally?
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Lot o points [155795]
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Policy changes?
Feb 6, 2018, 1:51 PM
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I'm talking about basic enforcement of the laws that were in place over the time he stayed, and probably was gainfully employed, in the US.
No changes needed for this discussion.
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All-In [34102]
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Was that an attempt to dodge the point?
Feb 6, 2018, 1:56 PM
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If you're getting hung up on "immigration policy," you can change it to "adding resources to enforcement agencies" or whatever you think would have prevented this person from being there.
You ignored my hypothetical, and in the meantime I found this non-hypothetical person who would be dead were it not for an illegal immigrant saving his life. Would you say this proves that we should have less enforcement of immigration laws? (No? I agree and that's my point.)
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article18631896.html
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Lot o points [155795]
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Ummm, you're engaging in a non-sequitur.
Feb 6, 2018, 1:58 PM
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A problem happened. If there are 5 things that could prevent said problem from happening, and you order them from 1-5 in terms of easiest to hardest to implement, which do you try to implement first, the hardest, or the easiest?
A person saving someone's life is not a problem. I don't appreciate your cunning ruse good sir.
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All-In [34102]
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It's a one-to-one analogy.
Feb 6, 2018, 2:01 PM
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Your dislike of it doesn't render it irrelevant.
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Lot o points [155795]
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No, it's irrelevant by only being tangentially related
Feb 6, 2018, 2:03 PM
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in the most remote way possible.
If we're discussing terrorists killing civilians and how to fix it, you aren't going to offer up terrorists distributing water and clothing to villages in Afghanistan as a counterpoint.
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All-In [34102]
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Ah, now you are starting the see the point.
Feb 6, 2018, 2:13 PM
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Terrorists actually kill citizens. It's what they do.
Drunk drivers put lives at risk. It's what they do.
Illegal immigrants do good things and bad things. On the whole, I agree that it is beneficial to put reasonable controls on immigration. But my reason has nothing to do with (a) the fact that some illegal immigrants drink and drive, or with (b) the fact that some illegal immigrants save lives.
My view (and yours, if your honest) on immigration policy is about the overall effect of the policy, not the fact that, but-for the weak enforcement of immigration rules, a Colts linebacker would be alive and a Miami cop would be dead. You just don't decide the benefit of immigration enforcement on a case-by-case basis.
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Lot o points [155795]
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No sir, the plaintiff openly rejects the redirect.
Feb 6, 2018, 2:22 PM
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You're dancing around my basic point, which is regarding how logical people perform post-mortem analyses. In this thread, we're talking about a singular situation, not overarching scenarios, and there's no need to talk about if's, but's, and maybe's of policy changes because said policy exists today. Your interjection of the "saves lives" is again moot because most logical people don't perform post-mortems on positive scenarios.
Last point, because we're just dancing now.
1) If you want to discuss immigration policy at large, isolated events rarely are substantial enough to make the complete case for one side or the other.
2) If you're doing a post-mortem on an isolated event (as we are in this thread), the logical mind ponders "what would have been the path of least resistance to preventing this?" It doesn't mean there can't be more than one solution, it merely tries to order them in terms of ease of implementation.
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All-In [34102]
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Re: No sir, the plaintiff openly rejects the redirect.
Feb 6, 2018, 2:26 PM
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Your argument is such a mess that I can't do anything with it. Anything I do would be to reiterate the fact (which you now seem to have admitted) that the enforcement of immigration rules should not be based on whether we can locate a single life enforcement would save by sheer happenstance, or by virtue of another life enforcement would harm by sheer happenstance. It's not how the analysis works in any rational mind.
I said good day.
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Lot o points [155795]
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YOU CAN'T "GOOD DAY SIR" ME!
Feb 6, 2018, 2:30 PM
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When I said "last point", it clearly was an inferred first strike "good day" to you.
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Legend [15492]
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Re: YOU CAN'T "GOOD DAY SIR" ME!
Feb 6, 2018, 2:32 PM
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I can't believe you broke out the 'good day' offense, but I think under the circumstances you were justified.
Good job. 
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All-In [26968]
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This person is dead because of a man's choices.
Feb 6, 2018, 1:49 PM
[ in reply to you look at it on a case by case basis. ] |
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You can try to legislate stuff away, but a man made choices, and now another man is dead because of them. He should have chosen to stay in his own country, and he should have chosen not to drink alcohol.
I wonder if our leaders could influence people to abstain from alcohol if they made an effort to do so.
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CU Medallion [56055]
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How would you propose our leaders influence people to
Feb 6, 2018, 2:05 PM
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abstain from alcohol?
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All-In [26968]
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Public statements and campaigns...
Feb 6, 2018, 2:07 PM
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telling people why it's a bad idea to drink alcohol. That would be a nice start.
Considering there are twice as many deaths every year from alcohol as there are from guns, you'd think they could at least give it the same amount of air time.
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CU Medallion [56055]
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Gun control is discussed in terms of political action.
Feb 6, 2018, 2:17 PM
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If they're not going to discuss policy, then they'd essentially be saying "Thoughts and prayers."
It seems like you want politicians to address this problem, which would involve legislation. Otherwise it's apples and oranges.
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Heisman Winner [137861]
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Are you saying alcohol should be illegal?
Feb 6, 2018, 1:22 PM
[ in reply to Actually, my point had more to do with ] |
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I wonder if that's been tried anywhere? It could work. I mean, we made drugs illegal and solved that problem, and alcohol is basically a drug.
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All-In [26968]
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Nope, I have not said that.***
Feb 6, 2018, 1:27 PM
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CU Medallion [73569]
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All-In [34102]
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I know!***
Feb 6, 2018, 1:39 PM
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Orange Blooded [4974]
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Legend [16240]
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CU Guru [1878]
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BUT DEY TOOK OUR JERRRBS***
Feb 6, 2018, 1:51 PM
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Lot o points [180966]
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GATA***
Feb 6, 2018, 1:51 PM
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CU Medallion [56055]
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Edwin Jackson would still be alive if he weren't
Feb 6, 2018, 1:54 PM
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out at 4 AM, amirite?
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Lot o points [155795]
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Vince Foster would still be alive if he'd had a gun.***
Feb 6, 2018, 1:54 PM
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CU Medallion [56055]
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Re: Vince Foster would still be alive if he'd had a gun.***
Feb 6, 2018, 2:00 PM
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Legend [15492]
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Re: Drunk-driving illegal immigrant kills Colts LB..
Feb 6, 2018, 2:01 PM
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Lizzie Borden, who murdered her parents with an axe had red hair.
Lynette From who served 34 yrs for attempting to assassinate Pres. Ford had red hair.
All people with red hair are bad.
Am I doing it right?
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All-In [26968]
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Don't know what you're trying to "do right,"
Feb 6, 2018, 2:03 PM
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but I disagree with your statements.
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Legend [15492]
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Re: Don't know what you're trying to "do right,"
Feb 6, 2018, 2:29 PM
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> but I disagree with your statements.
As you should. The original post points out the bad acts of an illegal immigrant. The natural inference is that it makes all illegal immigrants bad based on one guys bad behavior.
Of course red haired people are not bad because of the actions of 1 or a few red haired people.
As for 'am I doing it right', I was referring to some people's habit of finding a singular bad example of something in order to paint an entire group or ideology as bad because of the bad actor.
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All-In [26968]
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OK, however...
Feb 6, 2018, 3:44 PM
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I hope you agree that my post, which was the original post in this thread, is not an example of that.
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Legend [15746]
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What would you like to be done about alcohol?***
Feb 6, 2018, 2:03 PM
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All-In [26968]
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For it not to be consumed.***
Feb 6, 2018, 2:05 PM
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Legend [15746]
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So you are not asking for any laws, restrictions, regulation
Feb 6, 2018, 2:13 PM
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or anything, at all, from our government leadership?
I just ask because you mentioned not seeing any Tweets about deaths from alcohol. I thought that meant you want them to do something about it.
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All-In [26968]
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Well, Tweets would be a nice start.
Feb 6, 2018, 2:14 PM
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It's better than nothing.
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Legend [15746]
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So you ARE recommending that the POTUS address alcohol.
Feb 6, 2018, 2:20 PM
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I’m not saying that’s a bad thing to want, but you’re right...don’t hold your breath.
You may be able to take some solace in the fact that Trump is a clear advocate of abstaining from alcohol, if not as vocal as you’d prefer. On the other hand, he might have caused a lot of people to start drinking more, soooooo...
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All-In [26968]
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Yes, except I wan't talking exclusively about the President.***
Feb 6, 2018, 3:29 PM
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CU Medallion [56055]
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All-In [26968]
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I think there's a good reason...
Feb 6, 2018, 3:28 PM
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It's because I don't think there is a good political solution, in terms of legislation.
Would I personally like for alcohol to be illegal? Yes, I would. But I don't think that's a workable solution in real life.
It all comes down to people making good choices. I may be old school, or weird, or something, but I believe personal leadership by our leaders still matters. It doesn't have to always be a law or an executive action...it can be showing us a better path.
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CU Medallion [56055]
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Politicians are wise to keep personal leadership vague.
Feb 6, 2018, 3:43 PM
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If they were to specifically call something out, as you'd have them do, people would expect them to follow their words with action. And when they don't, it rings hollow.
Perhaps some things are better left to churches.
Message was edited by: Murcielago®
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All-In [26968]
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Yep, I've said it a couple of times in this thread...
Feb 6, 2018, 3:45 PM
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Part of that leadership is personal example. I would like our leaders to abstain from alcohol...that's a big part of it, to me. Show us by example.
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All-In [28802]
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When I saw Edwin Jackson, I thought it was the pitcher
Feb 6, 2018, 2:06 PM
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Had never heard of the LB
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All-In [26968]
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Me neither.***
Feb 6, 2018, 2:08 PM
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CU Medallion [50635]
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illegals that commit murder should be given legal status
Feb 6, 2018, 2:08 PM
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problem solved
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All-In [34102]
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That's all I'm trying to say.***
Feb 6, 2018, 2:22 PM
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110%er [5623]
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Re: Drunk-driving illegal immigrant kills Colts LB..
Feb 6, 2018, 10:08 PM
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You need to remove your dark glasses in order to see a little bit better. This criminal from Guatemala had been deported twice previously and criminally entered the good ole USA the third time. He had no drivers license and ran from the scene of the "murder" and had about three times the legal limit of alcohol in his bod. Everyone of you that try to make excuses and defend this scum bag have blood on your hands.
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All-In [26968]
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I know you're not referring to my post...
Feb 7, 2018, 7:25 AM
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As I did not make any excuses or say anything positive about this man who killed another.
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