|
Replies: 48
| visibility 1
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
I will say this. If the Democratic candidate
Nov 3, 2020, 10:08 AM
|
|
cannot win against an incredibly unpopular person, in the middle of a devastating pandemic with questionable response, with high unemployment and pockets of civil unrest...
Then there is something seriously, seriously wrong with what they are selling. Earth to Democrats...
|
|
|
|
 |
All-In [48078]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 49059
Joined: 5/16/04
|
Re: I will say this. If the Democratic candidate
Nov 3, 2020, 10:15 AM
|
|
I am going out on a limb that many people are tired of PC bullshyatt, don't want loose borders, don't want to pay for illegals medical care, don't want to hear about white privilege or other forms of identity politics, don't want a president that may have dementia, to name a few things. They should be running away with this election though after the Trump mess. They still may though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58376]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46314
Joined: 4/23/00
|
I would say that both sides have given the other side
Nov 3, 2020, 10:42 AM
|
|
gift after gift, but neither side has capitalized. Massive failures on both sides if you ask me, no matter who wins.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
I see "identity politics" as a losing issue as well.
Nov 3, 2020, 10:57 AM
[ in reply to Re: I will say this. If the Democratic candidate ] |
|
I think most people don't give a crap about all these "identities".
And much of what Democratic candidates say about the immigration issue is forsaking logic for the appearance of compassion. It's a losing issue for them as well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [56005]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 31617
Joined: 8/27/02
|
You can lead a horse to water....***
Nov 3, 2020, 10:16 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2692]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 3406
Joined: 7/3/07
|
or.... the GOP's propaganda was more effective
Nov 3, 2020, 10:21 AM
|
|
It all comes down to which side frames the best stories.
The Dems told the story of how a self-interested and corrupt president let his country down during a pandemic.
The GOP told the story of how a senile Washington swamp creature would destroy the economy with taxes and then become captured by foreign interests because his son was a crack head.
If we all believed the hype machines we wouldn't have a whole lot to look forward to over the next four years.
Whoever wins, all we can really do is go back to work, live our lives as fully as we can and hope for the best. I am going to try to leave the bitchin' and moanin' to others for at least a couple of months.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [11626]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9788
Joined: 5/17/02
|
Disagree....
Nov 3, 2020, 10:30 AM
|
|
The Dems should have destroyed Trump in 2016. Yet they did everything in their power to make sure HRC won the nomination and it blew up in their face.
4 years later, Trump should have no chance. Instead, they nominate a candidate who wants to close the nation (worked great for Europe, LOL), raise personal taxes (ALL income earners), raise corporate taxes, and grow government. And that's not GOP spin, that's his platform.
I still truly believe that had Sanders not been screwed, he'd be POTUS right now.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2692]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 3406
Joined: 7/3/07
|
you are playing the cause and effect game
Nov 3, 2020, 11:06 AM
|
|
so this is our new intellectual political analysis methodology, a kind of victim blaming, and it is so 2016, lol. You are trying to distinguish not how Trump wins the election, but how Biden loses. It's a bit like looking at the 2020 Natty, and not giving an ounce of credit to LSU, just blaming everything on our defense. It is obviously a bit of both. Like any competition, elections are also binary, in that they are both won and lost.
If you think Bernie would have been crushing Trump right now, you didn't learn much from the primaries. Despite all of our problems, neo-marxist socialists are not exactly en-vogue in 2020. There is no way
Bernie would endear himself to all the never-Trump, moderate Republicans. If Bernie was too far left for Democrats, what makes you think he would have won anyone over from the GOP side? Bernie's tax plan would have scared the bejeebus out of all of them.
Also, don't forget: Hillary won the popular vote. She lost the electoral college because she condescended the deplorables inside the rust belt. She lost Wisconsin and Pennsylvania.
If Biden wins decisively, it will be because he was the more conservative Democrat that would appeal to the centrists around the country. It is no coincidence that this was the overwhelming sentiment shown in the Democratic primaries. Dems voted realpolitik, they wanted vanilla, they wanted mainstream and they knew they couldn't run a radical candidate like Sanders.
I voted for Mayor Pete in the primary and would have voted for Yang or Warren over Trump as well.
If Trump wins, it will simply be because enough people were convinced by the hype that Biden was too old and senile.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26479]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 20622
Joined: 9/2/02
|
Lol. Bernie was rolling in the primaries
Nov 3, 2020, 12:58 PM
|
|
Then the DNC intervened and overnight Joe became the nomination
Y’all better hope the Bernie backers aren’t still pizzed
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
My observation is that few people are basing their vote
Nov 3, 2020, 10:49 AM
[ in reply to or.... the GOP's propaganda was more effective ] |
|
on how senile the candidate is, or if he's corrupt. There's some ridicule over that, but when people talk about why they are voting, they don't talk about that.
The vast majority of the ones I see voting for President Trump are saying that they feel their economic and personal freedoms are at risk otherwise. It's a vote against more government control and higher taxes. That's 90% of it, to me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
"A choice between freedom and tyranny"
Nov 3, 2020, 10:52 AM
|
|
is a common thread. It's an enormous exaggeration to me, of course, but you have to acknowledge the perspective, and why they feel that way.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2692]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 3406
Joined: 7/3/07
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80999]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2692]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 3406
Joined: 7/3/07
|
yeah, and what about it?
Nov 3, 2020, 12:04 PM
|
|
There are two sides to every story, people tend to believe what they want to believe.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [12942]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 6228
Joined: 1/26/16
|
the absolute dumbest thing Biden has done has been to stand
Nov 3, 2020, 10:32 AM
|
|
up and talk about more masking and shutdown... "we have to get control of the virus"... etc...
stupid
Americans are over it, and will not take kindly to a national mask mandate or shutdown
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [31860]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 37166
Joined: 11/22/03
|
The federal government doesn't have the power to...
Nov 3, 2020, 11:08 AM
|
|
force mask usage or shutdown anything of substance. That is all handled at the state and local level.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the President supporting and encouraging mask usage. The odd thing is that so many people opposed wearing masks are the same people that are against "shutting things down". If we would all rally around mask wearing, social distancing, and other reasonable measures, we wouldn't have to think about "shutting down" anything.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
Someone needs to ask why the vast majority
Nov 3, 2020, 11:13 AM
|
|
of the President's supporters seem to believe that Vice President will mandate masks and lock down the country. Has the Vice President been clear that he cannot do this? The answer is no, to me.
If the Vice President consistently and loudly took a position that he cannot mandate it, but compassionately shared the benefits of precautionary measures, citing evidence, then he'd be in better shape, I think.
"I will get this virus under control" is fantasy, to be honest, and I don't think enough Americans buy it. The message should be "YOU will get it under control," and I'll provide the resources you need to do so.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13359]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9885
Joined: 1/23/06
|
Re: I will say this. If the Republican candidate
Nov 3, 2020, 10:56 AM
|
|
cannot win against an incredibly unpopular person, with clear signs of dimentia, openly stating he will raise taxes and destroy the energy sector with a socialist agenda all the while promoting civil unrest...
Then there is something seriously, seriously wrong with what they are selling. Earth to Republicans...
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
Vice President Biden is not an unpopular person.
Nov 3, 2020, 10:59 AM
|
|
Also, those are conjectures about him and what he may do. I'm talking about what the state of the country actually is, under the leadership of President Trump. You can observe it. Logic says it would doom any incumbent. Yet it doesn't appear to have done so.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5648]
TigerPulse: 92%
Posts: 12124
Joined: 9/28/08
|
Re: I will say this. If the Democratic candidate
Nov 3, 2020, 11:12 AM
|
|
Not only that, but also with the MSM and social media piling on like crazy (probably illegally) to support the democrats.
If the press were even close to being neutral, Trump wins in a landslide.
The fact that it is this close has nothing to do with policies and everything to do with the media propaganda.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
I'll give another example (I'm on a roll, sorry)
Nov 3, 2020, 11:22 AM
|
|
Why is there confusion on whether the Vice President would "ban fracking"? It's because, if he hasn't outright said it, he's said something close enough to it. I do not believe the American people want to hear about the government putting in regulations on industry like this. I think most people care about the environment they live in, but are not looking to the government to save them, because they don't believe the government will do it right!
The truth is that we WILL transition away from fossil fuels. Because we have to! It's math. But we don't need the President or the government to do it for us, or to tell us how to do it. Companies will develop alternatives for energy and fuel because they have to, and they employ some of the most brilliant people in the world. I think the people want the government to allow this ingenuity to happen.
I believe that's a winning message. But when your message is that "we know best" and "we'll fix it," you're going to lose a large portion of the population. I think that's where the Democrats are. If they don't feel that way, they better figure out a way to fix their message.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34100]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33604
Joined: 9/13/99
|
Re: I'll give another example (I'm on a roll, sorry)
Nov 3, 2020, 11:24 AM
|
|
The confusion is over banning new fracking vs. banning existing fracking. Biden said yes to the first and no to the second.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
That just illustrates what I was saying.
Nov 3, 2020, 11:29 AM
|
|
If he wants to win over the so-called "heartland," I'd recommend he stop talking about banning anything, when it comes to the economy or industry.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34100]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33604
Joined: 9/13/99
|
Re: That just illustrates what I was saying.
Nov 3, 2020, 11:36 AM
|
|
I'm just explaining what the confusion is over.
By the way, if Biden is being honest at the expense of losing people who disagree with him, that's fine by me and I'm sure it's fine by you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
I agree he should be honest...
Nov 3, 2020, 11:39 AM
|
|
I'm not saying he or anyone else is a bad person for having certain views/policies.
I'm just saying...the Democrats should "honestly" expect to lose national elections, then. Maybe compromising in some areas on just how big the government's role should be would actually help them advance their greater ideals.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34100]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33604
Joined: 9/13/99
|
Re: I agree he should be honest...
Nov 3, 2020, 11:49 AM
|
|
Earlier it sounded like you agreed that we would have to move toward renewable energy. I see nothing wrong with the position that we permit existing fracking while redirecting future efforts into alternative energy.
I guess we'll find out whether Biden can "honestly" win despite his position on that issue.
P.S. Not banning existing fracking IS the compromise.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [15492]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 18413
Joined: 12/10/14
|
Re: I agree he should be honest...
Nov 3, 2020, 12:32 PM
|
|
Earlier it sounded like you agreed that we would have to move toward renewable energy. I see nothing wrong with the position that we permit existing fracking while redirecting future efforts into alternative energy.
I guess we'll find out whether Biden can "honestly" win despite his position on that issue.
P.S. Not banning existing fracking IS the compromise.
Biden's actual position is to ban new fracking on federal land, find a way to make existing fracking safer and to stop the govt. from subsidizing all the oil companies. Exon Mobile is the most profitable company in the history of mankind, yet we give them billions every year in grants. Biden wants to stop that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34100]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33604
Joined: 9/13/99
|
Sounds like you know more about the details than I do.***
Nov 3, 2020, 12:33 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34100]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33604
Joined: 9/13/99
|
True.
Nov 3, 2020, 11:23 AM
|
|
And if Republicans can hold both houses of Congress, the Presidency, and the Judiciary, and still fail to achieve promised goals like Repeal and Replace or bringing back manufacturing jobs or building a beautiful concrete border wall from sea to shining sea...
Then there is something seriously, serious, wrong with what they are selling. Earth to Republicans...
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
Doesn't it tell you something that the people
Nov 3, 2020, 11:26 AM
|
|
don't seem to care that there isn't a wall yet, or that there's no replacement for "Obamacare"? I don't think they're voting for a wall or for a healthcare system. At least not in 2020. You know how many conservative friends I have seen talking about needing a wall? Not in over a year, probably. That's not the important thing, to them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34100]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33604
Joined: 9/13/99
|
OK, so it's confirmed: repealing Obamacare and building a border wall
Nov 3, 2020, 11:32 AM
|
|
ARE NOT IMPORTANT.
[bookmarking this]
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [53]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
C’mon man
Nov 3, 2020, 11:32 AM
[ in reply to True. ] |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34100]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33604
Joined: 9/13/99
|
Re: C’mon man
Nov 3, 2020, 11:34 AM
|
|
Sorry, which Republicans voted for the wall? And when are they going to vote for Mexico to pay for it?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [53]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: C’mon man
Nov 3, 2020, 11:39 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34100]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33604
Joined: 9/13/99
|
That was not about the border wall.***
Nov 3, 2020, 11:49 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
That's such a ridiculous notion
Nov 3, 2020, 11:35 AM
[ in reply to C’mon man ] |
|
Those Senators vote with their Republican colleagues probably 90% of the time. What a foolish thing to be so "team sport-oriented" that Senators are viewed as "fake" for occasionally voting differently.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [53]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: That's such a ridiculous notion
Nov 3, 2020, 11:36 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
So?***
Nov 3, 2020, 11:40 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
Imagine if the President was a kind and even-tempered
Nov 3, 2020, 11:47 AM
|
|
person. What do you think the Electoral Vote tally would be if the election was just based on issues and not personalities? Do the math...one side appears to be losing on issues, perhaps even to the point of losing a national election to an extremely unpopular and largely incompetent President.
Now, the Democrats may win the Presidency, and the Senate, but it won't be because of what they are doing with taxes and laws and things. It would purely be a referendum on the behavior of the President. What's it gonna look like against, say, a Nikki Haley in 2024? Bloodbath city, is what I'd say.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80999]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56072
Joined: 9/13/04
|
Thats the only benefit I can see if Biden wins.
Nov 3, 2020, 11:49 AM
|
|
It provides a clear, open path for Haley in 2024 to come in and actually get some positive things done.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34100]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33604
Joined: 9/13/99
|
Painting with a mighty broad brush, Prod.
Nov 3, 2020, 11:51 AM
[ in reply to Imagine if the President was a kind and even-tempered ] |
|
Opinions on issues are not as clear cut as you are suggesting. If you have data suggesting otherwise, show it, but I think you might be relying too much on surveys of your facebook friends.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
I am, and I've tried to make it a point that
Nov 3, 2020, 12:21 PM
|
|
I'm really talking about what I'm seeing about why people are voting for the President here. Maybe there are other swaths of his voters elsewhere that have a significantly different perspective, but based on the, admittedly more limited, observation I have of people outside "my circle," I still hear a lot of the same stuff.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34100]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33604
Joined: 9/13/99
|
Re: I am, and I've tried to make it a point that
Nov 3, 2020, 1:00 PM
|
|
I gotcha. Well I'm voting based on policies. First of all, Biden has some, which is an important distinction from the incumbant. That was a joke, but also not entirely a joke.
Second, I'm against repealing Obamacare with nothing to replace it, and even though you say it's not important, there's actually a Supreme Court case about it right now, so someone cares. I'm also for a creative solution to the problems that continue despite Obamacare, and Trump has demonstrated his inability to develop any.
Third, I'm in favor of rebuilding our relationships with our allies and rejecting the strongman dictators that Trump admired.
So there are at least a couple issues on which I might not be in the minority.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
Yah, I want to make sure to clarify...
Nov 3, 2020, 1:10 PM
|
|
That it's not that "I" don't think Obamacare or the wall are important. I'm saying most voters for the President don't seem concerned about those items, that I can tell.
I also don't get the sense that it's largely a vote "for" policies that the President holds, but more about what policies they perceive his opponent to espouse. Really, it's a party thing. Probably a significant majority of the people I observe have the attitude of "voting against THEM," not against Vice President Biden as an individual.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [48962]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 38798
Joined: 12/31/97
|
Every four years there are huge numbers of new voters...
Nov 3, 2020, 11:54 AM
[ in reply to Imagine if the President was a kind and even-tempered ] |
|
There were only a half dozen or so cars at our polling place this morning but of the half dozen or so, three, including myself, were parents voting with their newly eligible child. Just based on the fact that we were all taking pictures like idiots. (And my daughter recognized the two other kids her age)
All voting Biden but that doesn't really mean much.
Republicans are going to have to alter the message and abandon a part of their base to keep winning as demographics continue to shift.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [56005]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 31617
Joined: 8/27/02
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
This is not an objective exercise, or thread.
Nov 3, 2020, 12:54 PM
|
|
There is no math.
If you grant that the main driver of voters to the Democratic side is not issues, but personal aspects of the President (as opposed to issues), then the first two sentences you posted are logically sound.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [56005]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 31617
Joined: 8/27/02
|
You said, "Do the math...one side appears to be losing on
Nov 3, 2020, 12:57 PM
|
|
issues." I don't know what you're basing that on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
Hah..yeah, OK. It was intended to be metaphorical.
Nov 3, 2020, 12:59 PM
|
|
Not a literal statement. Good catch, though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 48
| visibility 1
|
|
|
50
