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Orange Blooded [3203]
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my $.02 on the Brownlee situation (long)
Mar 2, 2016, 11:58 AM
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Does anyone else see the similarities between CBB and CTB?
Brownell has the ability to keep our team in the game with almost anyone we play. We generally play the highest ranked teams pretty well and give ourselves at least a chance to win those games. Honestly, that is really all we can ask at this point. We will win a few of those games or lose close ones like we did last night, but we are at least competing with teams in the top 10.
Bowden had the ability to do the same. We would always come to play against the top ranked competition and a few times we even pulled big upsets like FSU or Miami.
The problem with this comparison is that both coaches have/had the ability to keep us in close games against far inferior teams. Ultimately Bowden was fired for losses to teams like Duke and Wake Forest, not his lack of wins against top teams. Brownell has wins this year against Syracuse, Louisville, Duke, and Miami. Conversely, he has losses to Umass, Minnesota, Alabama, Georgia, GT, VT, and NC State. It is entirely too reminiscent of the CTB football days in my opinion.
The other big comparison I see is the recruiting trail. Under the CTB era, we would generally land mediocre recruits with perhaps 1-2 "top players" a year. Under CBB, we generally land the 3 star kids and perhaps a 4 star that the big names were not interested in recruiting. I understand the negatives CBB is recruiting against, but we will never build a solid team that competes at the level of the NCAA tournament until we consistently recruit at that level. Hopefully the new facilities will help, but the biggest factor is going to be consistently winning games.
Final thought. How do you give a coach the "Coach of the Year" award for taking inferior talent and finishing somewhere in the middle of the pack of the ACC and missing the NCAA tourney? Isn't it the same coaches fault he has inferior talent in the first place?
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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ludicrous....
Mar 2, 2016, 12:01 PM
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comparing Clemson basketball results, coaching, players, history, etc.
to Clemson football
is patently ludicrous.
You do know that Clemson has, what, 15 ACC Championships in football, and
exactly one ACC "regular season" championship in basketball.
Come again on this so-called "comparison"?!
People have lost their ever-living minds....
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CU Medallion [51870]
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To be fair...
Mar 2, 2016, 12:05 PM
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Comparing coaching tendencies is much different than comparing the two programs overall.
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110%er [7718]
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Re: ludicrous....
Mar 2, 2016, 12:07 PM
[ in reply to ludicrous.... ] |
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He is comparing coaching tendencies not the programs themselves.
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Orange Blooded [3203]
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Re: ludicrous....
Mar 2, 2016, 12:07 PM
[ in reply to ludicrous.... ] |
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Clemson has 15 ACC championships in football.
However, you will note a 20 year gap in those championships. Ken Hatfield won one in 1991. Our next came under Dabo Swinney in 2011. That means during the span of CTB, we had exactly 0 conference championships. It took a coaching change to create a culture change. That culture change resulted in 2 ACC championships in the last 5 years.
I am not comparing the football program as a whole to the basketball program as a whole. I am comparing our results under CTB to our results under CBB.
In the end, CBB has far less expectations than anyone on the football coaching staff. If he could make the NCAA tourney 3 our of 5 years and perhaps make a sweet 16 run in one of those 5, they would name the building after him.
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All-In [27363]
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I believe
Mar 2, 2016, 12:18 PM
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That one of the coaches mentioned above was a little bit more arrogant than the other. Brad is a quality young man who knows basketball. It would really be good if he could bring in a recruiter like Shaka Smart was to help get the right players in orange
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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there are a couple of key factors as to why BB
Mar 2, 2016, 1:43 PM
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is where he is:
1) Clemson has NO brand in College Basketball. NONE.
2) OP left BB with a one year stable of above-average players; those that didn't graduate after the first year were "good" to "decent" at best.
3) OP left BB a recruiting class that completely disintegrated, and had absolutely NO positive impact not the program at all in future years. OP also left after it was possible to address any additional recruits it the current class.
4) Shaka Smart was BB's "recruiter", and when he left BB was not the recruiter to make up for it. That's is entirely on Brownell.
The sum total of that was basically one good year. And then a cycle of decent but not great recruiting such that until this year Brownell has not had his leading scorer returning EVER.
5) Roy Williams stole Brice Johnson. Johnson was the recruit that Brownell needed: big man, big presence down low, from South Carolina. Williams lost a couple of recruits to Duke and then pulled rank on Brownell with his UNCheat card to get Johnson. #### Williams and every Blue-belly in this country.
6) KJ left early. WT(ph)? How dd that work out?
Yes; there are things that Brownell's program needs to improve on. But the idea of comparing him to Bowden or comparing him to Tony Bennett or trying to put a number of years on his "need for improvement"
is asinine in every way.
Clemson people need to shut the #### up during basketball season. GD Wake Forest has a better program than Clemson does
and ALWAYS has!! So Shut The F*** Up!!!
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110%er [8008]
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Blah, blah, blah.
Mar 2, 2016, 3:33 PM
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A bunch of #### excuses.
In year SIX, everything is on BB, not OP.
If BB can't recruit he will never be able to win consistently.
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All-In [27363]
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If you can't recruit??
Mar 2, 2016, 4:57 PM
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What coach would that not apply to?
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110%er [7718]
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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did you just say
Mar 2, 2016, 3:38 PM
[ in reply to there are a couple of key factors as to why BB ] |
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"putting a number of years on his need for improvement is asinine"????
what #####?
why do you think Buzz is doing what he is at VPI, in year 2, when he took over a Shyatt-esque program?
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All-In [43989]
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Good post. You made some really good points.
Mar 2, 2016, 11:08 PM
[ in reply to there are a couple of key factors as to why BB ] |
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One small correction though. Shaka Smart was OP's assistant, not Brownell's. When Shaka left, OP's recruiting definitely took a hit and it resulted in a few poor recruiting classes in the few years before Brownell took over.
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Orange Blooded [4561]
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Ludicrous: I do not think it means what you think it means
Mar 2, 2016, 1:17 PM
[ in reply to ludicrous.... ] |
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You could compare Clemson's Basketball results to my under-performing stock portfolio and it wouldn't be ludicrous... perhaps not a fair comparison but definitely not ludicrous. Comparing 2 sport teams from the same university based on results over a similar period of time is exceedingly fair.
Ludicrous means, by definition, something so outrageous that it's funny. Ain't nobody laughing because it was a comparison with valid points.
Your use of ludicrous, however, was ludicrous.
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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getting like results from two entirely different
Mar 2, 2016, 1:34 PM
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sets of inputs is
in fact
non-comparable.
It's happenstance.
You can compare the results of the two coaches
but to ignore the vast differences in how they got there
is in fact "ludicrous".
People on this board simply want to denigrate.
I hope the #### it makes you people feel better about yourselves....
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Orange Blooded [4561]
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Re: getting like results from two entirely different
Mar 2, 2016, 9:36 PM
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Maybe stop dismissing valid points from others and dispute those points? Just an observation. Carry on.
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110%er [8008]
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Why shouldn't Clemson basketball be held to the same
Mar 2, 2016, 3:30 PM
[ in reply to ludicrous.... ] |
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standard as football? Because they've rarely been good in the past doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to be good in the future.
Always do what you've always done and you'll always get what you've always got.
And as Dabo says, "it's only unthinkable if you don't think it".
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CU Medallion [58367]
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Bottom line with Brownell:
Mar 2, 2016, 12:47 PM
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In six seasons, he has failed to produce at an acceptable level.
Except for his first year here, there were at least six teams in our conference better than us. That's a very bad 5-year stretch any way you slice it. If you are seriously satisfied with that, then you aren't serious about basketball at Clemson. Some of that may not be entirely his fault, but he's the head coach, and right or wrong, he is inextricably tied to that record. If he can turn it around next year and get us to the dance, then he should get another year, I believe. Getting to the dance should be the absolute minimum, as in doing just enough to hang on, in year seven. Getting to the dance is not the end goal mind you, it's just a step in the right direction. One year of making the tourney then a few years of not making it would be a failure as well.
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CU Medallion [67653]
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Re: Bottom line with Brownell: "very bad 5-year stretch?"
Mar 2, 2016, 1:11 PM
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wasnt that the really tall kid who never panned out
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Varsity [237]
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Re: my $.02 on the Brownlee situation (long)
Mar 2, 2016, 3:07 PM
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I believe the proper way to evaluate Brownlee is:
As a trend, Is he bringing in better players each year?
Are the existing players improving appreciably each year?
Is he managing each game well?
Has he hired good assistance coaches?
Is he building a program? How?
** Just questions that should be answered.
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Legend [15492]
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Re: my $.02 on the Brownlee situation (long)
Mar 2, 2016, 4:55 PM
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I see your argument as exactly the problem. "Being competitive in big games" isn't something that winning programs do. They win big games. Some coaches can't get over the hump like Tommy Bowden. It's a coaching thing.
Further, I don't see how you can disassociate recruiting from the coach himself. Dabo is just a better recruiter than Tommy Bowden was. You have to remember that he signed 'the dandy dozen' before we had the huge facilities upgrades.
Recruiting has everything to do with the coach.
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Trainer [39]
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Re: my $.02 on the Brownlee situation (long)
Mar 2, 2016, 4:57 PM
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Excellent analysis. CBB is a mid-major coach and is unable to get over the hump. A renovated LJ isn't going to make any difference.
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CU Guru [1134]
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no comparison - CTB had this guy named Dabo
Mar 3, 2016, 1:29 PM
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(or something like) that recruiting for him. He had measurably and consistently better talent.
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Orange Blooded [4550]
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Both coaches have this in common
Mar 3, 2016, 1:46 PM
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They both win just enough games to keep their jobs and keep fans hanging on the vine for that "turned the corner" season. All the while, never producing anything tangible.
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