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Don't Believe In Evolution? Try Thinking Harder.
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Don't Believe In Evolution? Try Thinking Harder.


Jul 1, 2015, 7:48 AM

That's not my title, it's directly from the link.

http://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2015/06/29/418289762/don-t-believe-in-evolution-try-thinking-harder


The first two comments are especially good:

"I wish that people who love to throw stones at the purported "inconsistencies" and "failings" of evolution would apply the same rigor to their faith-based systems of thought."

"This has always been baffling. A scientific model gets revised by an incremental amount when some piece of new data emerges and they seize upon the revision and declare: "A-HA! Busted!! "Science" changed an answer! That means it had the wrong answer before! Ergo, Science is wrong!"

But point out the legions of "inconsistencies" within religion (or its ubiquitous logic-failures) and "Well, that's a matter of faith!"

The human mind's capacity to accommodate cognitive dissonance may turn out to be infinite."


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What's even more mind blowing


Jul 1, 2015, 8:19 AM

Is the creationists can't see that if evolution is wrong and homosexuality is wrong then God made a mistake when he made gay people gay.


And being gay IS NOT a personal choice so don't try that.

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Not exactly.***


Jul 1, 2015, 8:43 AM



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too bad God didn't make us all as smart as you


Jul 1, 2015, 8:46 AM [ in reply to What's even more mind blowing ]

enlightened folks.

That's obviously His biggest mistake.

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It has very little to do with intelligence and is more about


Jul 1, 2015, 9:03 AM

your upbringing and environment. If you grow up around creationists, you are more likely to be a creationist.

You don't have to be an expert to look at the evidence and see what is happening.

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Re: It has very little to do with intelligence and is more about


Jul 1, 2015, 11:47 AM

unfortunately they are out-breeding us



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Come on. You could put a picture of students in public


Jul 2, 2015, 11:42 AM

school in that frame and imply the same thing. Or a parent scolding her child for hitting someone.

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null


Re: Come on. You could put a picture of students in public


Jul 3, 2015, 5:04 PM

why not a mother teaching her children that dragons and wizards are real?

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Are people really convinced of evolution by the evidence?


Jul 1, 2015, 12:36 PM [ in reply to It has very little to do with intelligence and is more about ]

Because I'm pretty sure that most people just tip their hate to the evidence presented by people they take to have authority, and that what they believe is just as much due to "upbringing and environment" as you think creationists' belief is.

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Re: Are people really convinced of evolution by the evidence?


Jul 1, 2015, 1:11 PM

Sure and that is true for most scientific truths we know. Most people don't dive into the evidence for themselves to figure it all out, it's simply not practicle. We use heuristics all the time to determine what to believe. It's reasonable to believe the curriculum you learn in school without fact checking every single thing.

> Are people really convinced of evolution by the evidence?

I'd love to know the breakdown here myself, as it's a very interesting question. It's rare in the south, but a lot of schools teach evolution in class. So there are good number of people on both sides of this.

I personally grew up in a christian environment (not necessarily fully blown creationist) so it was indeed the evidence for evolution (and lack-thereof for creationism) that convinced me.

The difference here is that when someone claims that we evolved over time through natural selection, it can be easily backed up with empirical evidence. We have mountains of data and studies that support this claim.

When someone claims we were created as recently as 6,000 years ago we can easily refute that claim with the aforementioned evidence.

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no, God snapped his fingers 6000 years ago


Jul 3, 2015, 3:43 PM

and just made everything look older. If he can snap his fingers and create the heavens and the earth, he darn sure can make it look like whatever he wants to

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Isn't it possible to believe in evolution and creation?


Jul 1, 2015, 2:49 PM [ in reply to It has very little to do with intelligence and is more about ]

I mean, it's not that far-fetched that God created evolution, right?

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Yes, he's just using "creationism" a little sloppily***


Jul 1, 2015, 3:03 PM



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Well the media has turned "Creationist" into someone who


Jul 1, 2015, 3:11 PM

is a Young Earth Creationism believer.

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Cole @ Beach Cole w/ Clemson Hat


Re: Isn't it possible to believe in evolution and creation?


Jul 1, 2015, 3:19 PM [ in reply to Isn't it possible to believe in evolution and creation? ]

No but it's certainly incompatible with the biblical account that very clearly states it was all created in a week.

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Re: Isn't it possible to believe in evolution and creation?


Jul 1, 2015, 4:35 PM

"in a week" in eternity may be billions of years. If you try and measure eternity, God's time, and there is no end to time, what is time and how is it measured?

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Re: Isn't it possible to believe in evolution and creation?


Jul 1, 2015, 4:39 PM

Is there any reason for me to believe that a "day" or "week" in biblical times is not the same as it is today? I don't think there is any indication that it wasn't supposed to be the same.

Therefore, it is incompatible with contemporary evidence that the earth was created over billions of years and not in a week.

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Actually, according to the Bible Earth was created in 7 day


Jul 1, 2015, 5:56 PM

Literally, it says, "There was evening and there was morning, the _________ day." You see this with each day of the created order. Further evidence that the Bible intends for it to understood as seven (7) days of creation is found in Exodus and the Ten Commandments. Exodus 20:11; "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the Earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the seventh day and made it holy."

Now, I am a Creationist but I do not believe that the Earth was created 6,000 years ago. It is obviously much older than that. I know that there "theologians" are their own biggest enemy on this matter. However, when I read Genesis I never see where it states HOW LONG Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden and, in my estimation, it is not reasonable to say it was only long enough for the Earth to be 6,000 years old.

Just my opinion.

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John 3:16; 14:1-6


Re: Actually, according to the Bible Earth was created in 7 day


Jul 1, 2015, 9:05 PM

Interesting, I don't recall the exact details but I don't remember it stating exactly how long Adam and Eve were in the garden. So I suppose that would allow for a long time.

What bugs me is, where do dinosaurs play a role in all of this? Fossil record shows they existed LONG before humans and before most of the kinds of living animals we see today evolved. How could this possibly be compatible with the creation account? Even if the adam and eve story were true, it seems like a lot of things are being left out.

Honest question, not trying to be a ####.

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Good question


Jul 2, 2015, 9:38 AM

And I do not have an answer on why the fossil records are what they are. However, I do understand that fossils themselves are not formed by something simply dying and falling over on the ground until someday it is covered and preserved. And how do we know what a man would do with a family member or "tribe" member when they died? Did they bury them, or burn them? If buried, how deep? If burned, there would be no fossil record of them. But certainly, mankind in those days did not just leave another lying where he fell anymore than we do. And for the straggler, do you realize how exponentially high the odds are against fossilization of a straggler?

There are too many variables in the difference in how the species lived to answer your question on the fossil record for me. And because we do not find a human skeleton beside a dinosaur does not scare me from my faith anymore than a scientist who believed in a black hole though he could not prove it in his day.


Message was edited by: HuntClub®


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John 3:16; 14:1-6


Re: Good question


Jul 2, 2015, 9:50 AM

> And I do not have an answer on why the fossil records are what they are.

> And because we do not find a human skeleton beside a dinosaur does not scare me from my faith anymore than a scientist who believed in a black hole though he could not prove it in his day.

I respect your opinion, so please don't think I don't, just want to continue the friendly debate. The fossil record shows a very clear progression from simple forms of life (in older layers) to very complex forms of life (in the most recent layers).

Furthermore, there has never been a single fossil found that was "out of order". I.E, we don't see rabbit fossils in the precambrian or humans next to dinosaurs.

So is it not reasonable for me to conclude that we simply evolved over time (as the fossil record clearly shows) and that the creation story is simply incorrect? Btw, I'm not trying to tell you what to believe, i'm just trying to show you my logic on the subject.

I'm just trying to follow the evidence here and to me it seems very clear what happened.

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kinda blows that whole off on Sunday thing


Jul 3, 2015, 3:46 PM [ in reply to Re: Isn't it possible to believe in evolution and creation? ]

create the earth in billions of years that is really a week, but then a week is a week everywhere else

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Re: It has very little to do with intelligence and is more about


Jul 1, 2015, 4:31 PM [ in reply to It has very little to do with intelligence and is more about ]

You sure are obsessed with the God didn't create the universe. Who are you trying to convince? Yourself or Christians? Let me give you a heads up. Nothing you post here or anywhere else is going to convince a Christian who believes that the Bible is the innerant word of God that God is not the Creator of the universe. So, all of the evolutionist theory you want to believe still boils down to the fact that somehing can be created from nothing. Try working on that fact and when you have it figured out, get back to me.


Message was edited by: junk yard tiger®


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Re: It has very little to do with intelligence and is more about


Jul 1, 2015, 4:45 PM

> You sure are obsessed with the God didn't create the universe

Um hi... welcome to the discussion about evolution. The point is to discuss it's merits, not religion but it inevitably gets interjected because it doesn't agree with a religious person's ideology. So here we are.

> Who are you trying to convince? Yourself or Christians? Let me give you a heads up. Nothing you post here or anywhere else is going to convince a Christian who believes that the Bible is the innerant word of God that God is not the Creator of the universe.

You are probably correct and that is sad. Last I checked this was a political and religion forum so it's kind of the whole point to discuss this sort of thing.

> So, all of the evolutionist theory you want to believe still boils down to the fact that nothing can be created from nothing.

You are mistaken. The theory of evolution has absolutely ZERO to do with the origin of life. It only describes how it has changed over time. I think you are referring to abiogenesis or maybe even the big bang, i'm not sure.

> Try working on that fact and when you have it figured out, get back to me.

Again, wether or not nothing can come from nothing remains to be seen. However, it has no bearing on the theory of evolution, they are completely separate things.

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Re: It has very little to do with intelligence and is more about


Jul 2, 2015, 9:38 AM

"Again, wether or not nothing can come from nothing remains to be seen. However, it has no bearing on the theory of evolution, they are completely separate things."

How can they be completely separate things? From the instant plants and animals came into existence, according to evolution theory, they started adapting and changing (evolving). For something to evolve, it had to start the process at what point? So, again, which came first, the chicken or the egg? One is necessary for the other to exist. So, how do you get something from nothing? You don't. So how did creation begin? Again, Without something(creation) there could be no evolution. Once,you or someone else can explain creating something from absolutely nothing, then we can discuss evolution. Yes, evolution will always come back to creation. How can it not?

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Re: It has very little to do with intelligence and is more about


Jul 2, 2015, 11:24 AM

> How can they be completely separate things?

To put it simply, evolution explains how animals evolve over time, it does not explain (or even attempt to explain) the origin of life. That would be abiogenesis, creation or even aliens planting life here. They are simply two different subjects. You can have any mixture of those.

They are related concepts in that they are describing life, but evolution has nothing to do with how it all got started.

> For something to evolve, it had to start the process at what point?

Of course life had to start somewhere, but that is not in the realm of evolution. We don't have a difinitive answer as to how that happened yet. From the evidence it does appear that life arose from non-life (which is not nothing btw).

> So, how do you get something from nothing? You don't. So how did creation begin?

Nobody is saying life came from nothing. They are saying that it arose from non-life though.

> Again, Without something(creation) there could be no evolution.

You are correct, but something did happen and we did evolve.

> Once,you or someone else can explain creating something from absolutely nothing, then we can discuss evolution. Yes, evolution will always come back to creation. How can it not?

Hopefully the above explain why this assertion is false. You can have evolution regardless of how it initially started. Evolution does not depend on us explaining where life started.

Also, I must disabuse you of the idea that scientists say life started from "nothing". When you break it down, we are made of naturally occurring molecules and elements that you can find all over the earth. Why would it be impossible for those to arrange themselves into extremely simple lifeforms that eventually evolve into what we see today?

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who created your God?


Jul 3, 2015, 3:54 PM [ in reply to Re: It has very little to do with intelligence and is more about ]

I guess he created himself? Or was he just always here, there, in a black void?

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I was an Atheist until...


Jul 5, 2015, 3:33 AM [ in reply to It has very little to do with intelligence and is more about ]

I give science credit. Probably more credit than it deserves, but science doesn't ask for credit. It ask only for logic and reason.

On matters of creation vs evolution I give science a big credit on explaining the physical properties of matter, gases, and energy that formed what we call our solar system. Yet this does not rule out the possibility or probability of their being a God or supreme being. So there's that question. Also, I asked myself where the frontiers of space end? The answer was simple, that space to the best of our knowledge is infinite which means that eternity is a possibility.

What does evolution / science not answer? Science explains "HOW" we got here. It does NOT explain "WHY" we are here. If we are here by mere coincidence then we are in essence a giant accident. Which would mean that life is completely pointless and we have no purpose to our existence with the exception of extinction. Yet, we as a species are naturally born with a will to survive. Isn't that amazing? That didn't evolve into human nature. It's always been there. Otherwise the human race would have went extinct in the beginning.

So far we are the only planet that we are aware of that has intelligent life on it. We are the only species that has a moral conscience of right and wrong. Dog is man's best friend and if your dog poops on the carpet or chews up the pillows the dog is unaware of any wrong doing. Well, until the master shows some sort of emotion which draws a reactionary response from the dog.

Apes, Gorillas, and Chimpanzee know only one thing... Survival. They do not feel guilt, remorse, or sadness. That's only in the movies. Speaking of Gorillas. There have been cases reported of human beings being raised by Gorillas in remote parts of South America with absolutely zero human interaction until their discovery. Upon discovery it is noted that the human still has a moral sense of right and wrong. The moral sense of right and wrong is not taught. We are naturally born with it.

Another credit I give to science is the ability to generate technology. Some technology can predict the weather patters up to 2 weeks in advance. Yet, the Bible is the only book to predict the affairs of mankind up to 8000 years in advance. When I say Bible I include the Torah in that as well. The Qur'an cannot claim such foresight. Newton's Law, Einstein's Thesis, The Theory of Relativity, or even Darwin's Theory cannot predict the affairs of mankind that far in advance. An aspect of human beings that cannot be controlled no matter how hard one tries to govern it.

If the Bible has been correct about so many things then it should cause one to question the probability of there being a God.


Message was edited by: ChestyPuller0311®


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Our country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any America because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race.

~Chesty Puller
Lt.General United States Marine Corps


Re: I was an Atheist until...


Jul 5, 2015, 7:53 AM

Hey Chesty, just want to give my rebuttal here, again not trying to be a jerk, just keeping up the friendly debate.

> I give science credit. Probably more credit than it deserves, but science doesn't ask for credit. It ask only for logic and reason.

Agreed

>On matters of creation vs evolution I give science a big credit on explaining the physical properties of matter, gases, and energy that formed what we call our solar system. Yet this does not rule out the possibility or probability of their being a God or supreme being. So there's that question. Also, I asked myself where the frontiers of space end? The answer was simple, that space to the best of our knowledge is infinite which means that eternity is a possibility.

Again agreed. Science does not rule out the possibility of god. I'm not sure what you mean by infinite though, currently science doesn't believe space is infinite.

>What does evolution / science not answer? Science explains "HOW" we got here. It does NOT explain "WHY" we are here. If we are here by mere coincidence then we are in essence a giant accident. Which would mean that life is completely pointless and we have no purpose to our existence with the exception of extinction.

This bothered me at first too. But really, there is no rule that states there has to be a "why". Maybe we simply are here and that is that.

> Yet, we as a species are naturally born with a will to survive. Isn't that amazing? That didn't evolve into human nature. It's always been there. Otherwise the human race would have went extinct in the beginning.

Well of course we have the will to survive. When you are looking at this in the context of evolution, which animal do you think would have the highest chance to survive, the one that has an innate instinct to survive or one that doesn't? This is easily explainable because it's a highly favorable trait that evolution would select for.

> So far we are the only planet that we are aware of that has intelligent life on it. We are the only species that has a moral conscience of right and wrong.

Not true. Many animals including dogs, dolphins and elephants have concepts of right and wrong and fairness.

> Dog is man's best friend and if your dog poops on the carpet or chews up the pillows the dog is unaware of any wrong doing. Well, until the master shows some sort of emotion which draws a reactionary response from the dog.

Funny you mentioned Dogs. Did you know they didn't exists at all not too many generations ago? Humans domesticated wolves and artificially selected for the breeds we see to today. Isn't it quite amazing how much a species can change in just a few thousand years? Imagine what could happen over millions and billions of years.

> Apes, Gorillas, and Chimpanzee know only one thing... Survival. They do not feel guilt, remorse, or sadness. That's only in the movies.

Absolutely not true. This is a very interesting subject that I think you'll find amazing. Checkout some documentaries on the subject. You'll be surprised just how human-like these animals are.

> Speaking of Gorillas. There have been cases reported of human beings being raised by Gorillas in remote parts of South America with absolutely zero human interaction until their discovery. Upon discovery it is noted that the human still has a moral sense of right and wrong. The moral sense of right and wrong is not taught. We are naturally born with it.

I agree that this is amazing. But how is the natural sense of right and wrong any different from other animal instincts that they are born with. This is still easily explainable as it's a highly beneficial trait to select for.

>Another credit I give to science is the ability to generate technology. Some technology can predict the weather patters up to 2 weeks in advance. Yet, the Bible is the only book to predict the affairs of mankind up to 8000 years in advance.

I'm not saying your wrong, but what are some examples of this?


>When I say Bible I include the Torah in that as well. The Qur'an cannot claim such foresight. Newton's Law, Einstein's Thesis, The Theory of Relativity, or even Darwin's Theory cannot predict the affairs of mankind that far in advance. An aspect of human beings that cannot be controlled no matter how hard one tries to govern it.

>If the Bible has been correct about so many things then it should cause one to question the probability of there being a God.


The bible does get many things right, I'm not arguing that whatsoever. However, what if there was a single error in the bible. Would that not, by definition, make it fallible?

Check it out for yourself. There is an internal contradiction in just the first 2 chapters of the bible.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/accounts.html

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Re: I was an Atheist until...


Jul 5, 2015, 9:54 AM

http://creation.mobi/genesis-contradictions

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Re: I was an Atheist until...


Jul 5, 2015, 10:01 AM [ in reply to Re: I was an Atheist until... ]

Those verses were mistranslated to the English. I've questioned Genesis in my past.

2:19 is more accurately "had formed" instead of "formed."

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Re: I was an Atheist until...


Jul 5, 2015, 10:12 AM

That site you posted is nothing more than making a mockery of the Bible. There are better sources that speak of contradictions.

Taking what the skeptics annotated bible says as truth would be like me believing everything I read on dailykos. LOL

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Re: I was an Atheist until...


Jul 5, 2015, 11:16 AM

> That site you posted is nothing more than making a mockery of the Bible.

Fair enough.

> There are better sources that speak of contradictions.

So you agree that there are contradictions?

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Re: I was an Atheist until...


Jul 5, 2015, 11:23 AM

As far as translations, yes there are contradictions.

I believe the contradictions(at least the ones I've seen) can be explained when examining original texts etc

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Re: I was an Atheist until...


Jul 5, 2015, 11:24 AM

So in essence, we can't trust any of the translated versions no?

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Re: I was an Atheist until...


Jul 5, 2015, 11:40 AM

I don't know that we should say "not trust " because I believe anything written by many men, over thousands of years, translated many times will have errors and I believe most logical thinking people would agree with that.

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Re: I was an Atheist until...


Jul 5, 2015, 11:15 AM [ in reply to Re: I was an Atheist until... ]

ok...

So let's say you are correct and it was indeed mistranslated. We aren't even past the 2nd version and we can't trust our translated version of the Bible? Is that what you're telling me?

Are we expected to study hebrew and know all the exact translations? How am I to know which things were and were not translated correctly.

Also, you know what happens next right? I'm going to point out the next error and you will attempt to rationalize it and this would happen over and over again.

There are both internal and external errors in the bible. I'm happy to keep going if you'd like.

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Re: I was an Atheist until...


Jul 5, 2015, 11:24 AM

To point out, one of our translations, the NIV has exactly what I said..."had formed."

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Re: I was an Atheist until...


Jul 5, 2015, 11:38 AM [ in reply to Re: I was an Atheist until... ]

> ok...
>
> So let's say you are correct and it was indeed
> mistranslated. We aren't even past the 2nd version
> and we can't trust our translated version of the
> Bible? Is that what you're telling me?
>
> Are we expected to study hebrew and know all the
> exact translations? How am I to know which things
> were and were not translated correctly.
>
> Also, you know what happens next right? I'm going to
> point out the next error and you will attempt to
> rationalize it and this would happen over and over
> again.
>
> There are both internal and external errors in the
> bible. I'm happy to keep going if you'd like.


My post was about Genesis and that site you posted.

I clearly said I had questions about Genesis 1 and 2 as well.


But, your advice should go for you as well. No matter how I "rationalize" it, you'll believe what you believe just as I do. Funny how that works eh?

??

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Re: I was an Atheist until...


Jul 5, 2015, 11:46 AM

But I will say I "don't trust" many of the men/ women that preach the Bible.

Not because they're trying to mislead etc but because many don't have a clue what they're preaching.

Hell being one I don't trust them on. I've heard it claimed hell fire was taught in the OLD Testament in certain books/ verses etc. But it wasn't. They equated a common grave to hell.

To answer your question, no I don't think everyone should learn Hebrew but a Pastor should.

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Re: I was an Atheist until...


Jul 5, 2015, 12:11 PM [ in reply to Re: I was an Atheist until... ]

> But, your advice should go for you as well. No matter how I "rationalize" it, you'll believe what you believe just as I do. Funny how that works eh?

No actually it's not true. I'm ok with being wrong because it means that I am learning something. I'm not perfect of course but I try to only believe things that are verifiable and fact based.

If you poke a hole in my beliefs I will consider them for sure and if I am in error, then ok, I update my beliefs.

I'm not accusing you in particular of this, as you clearly seems to have a critical mind. But you'll find that religious people (in general) are not willing to challenge there own belief systems as much as non-religious people are.

If your belief system is correct, then you should have ZERO problem challenging it. God wouldn't disappear in a puff of logic if he was real and the bible is true right? Why then are people so opposed to discussing their beliefs?

I think it's because we innately feel threatened when our beliefs are challenged regardless of their truth. In my opinion though, it's hard to justify holding on to a belief that you can't back up.

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Re: I was an Atheist until...


Jul 5, 2015, 12:23 PM

We agree 100%

My wife and I often describe ourselves as agnostic but "doubting Thomas " is probably more accurate.

I believe in God or some sort of higher being but constantly have questions. My wife and I often sit and discuss these questions.

I have found that I can't discuss my thoughts with religious people. I've been told "Billy Graham believes it, so you should too." Just one example of some off the wall crap that has been thrown at me

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Re: I was an Atheist until...


Jul 5, 2015, 12:37 PM

I don't know what made me think of this but on more than one occasion I've been asked "have you ever seen God on satellite or radar?"

No, but I've seen many things that the ordinary person wouldn't think I'd see.

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Re: I was an Atheist until...


Jul 5, 2015, 12:47 PM [ in reply to Re: I was an Atheist until... ]

No worries. I must have misinterpreted something you said along the way.

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It's only a mistake if you're a queer hating creationist


Jul 1, 2015, 9:04 AM [ in reply to too bad God didn't make us all as smart as you ]

I could have worded it better I guess - God didn't make the mistake the young earth homophobes do

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Re: It's only a mistake if you're a queer hating creationist


Jul 1, 2015, 9:16 AM

Hey man, let's go easy.

Being abrasive isn't going to change anyone's mind and it sure doesn't help science's image. I'm guilty of the same thing but let's try to have a cordial discussion.

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From a scientific point of view, why does it matter?


Jul 1, 2015, 12:45 PM

Facts are facts. Science isn't a rhetorical tool, right?

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Re: From a scientific point of view, why does it matter?


Jul 1, 2015, 1:03 PM

Indeed, facts are facts and the facts point to evolution by natural selection.

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Re: From a scientific point of view, why does it matter?


Jul 4, 2015, 12:00 PM

bbbut the bible says.



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I'm sorry, but this is just stupid


Jul 1, 2015, 12:36 PM [ in reply to It's only a mistake if you're a queer hating creationist ]

Try thinking harder, next time.

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Holy non-sequitur


Jul 1, 2015, 12:33 PM [ in reply to What's even more mind blowing ]

I'm really not even sure why it is you think that evolution and the status of homosexuality have anything to do with each other. But have you ever heard of the concept of "sin?" Because, if you have, then you know that Christians believe that our nature is sinful. Following our sinful nature separates us from God, but the Christian conversion of nature is through identification/ communion with Jesus. Whatever other identities we might have are subordinated to our identity as a Christian.

And without getting into where sin comes from, I'd just point out that the existence of homosexuality isn't a special case of sinfulness. If you think that "God made a mistake when he made gay people gay," then you should also think that God made a mistake when he made all of us sinful.


This gets at what seems to be your assumption that whatever natural desires we have constitute an identity that can't be questioned, or that can't be subordinated to a more comprehensive identity. Somebody who's attracted to somebody of the same sex doesn't have to act on their attraction, which would mean that their homosexual desire doesn't constitute a "gay" sexual identity as we've currently constructed it. Similarly, somebody who's attracted to the opposite sex doesn't have to act on that attraction, meaning that the "straight" identity we've constructed is also shaped by other identities. The point is, sexual desire doesn't have to be supreme, and that the identities we construct around that desire (gay, straight, or otherwise) aren't entirely objective facts of nature. So God didn't "make gay people gay" any more than he created any other social/ political identity. He might have created us with certain desires and proclivities, but it's up to us to worship God with what we're given.

Or, you could just ignore all of this, and point out that we all have desires that we don't indulge, so it simply doesn't matter whether homosexual desire is innate. When people say that "being gay is a choice," then, what they might mean is that nothing's forcing a person who's attracted to somebody of the same sex to act on that attraction.

I'm still trying to figure out what you think evolution has to do with all of this. Maybe you think chalking up sexual identity to evolution gives God a pass for the existence of homosexuality. But believing something like that sure does diminish God, and I don't know how you'd claim that sexuality is morally meaningful at all if all there was to it was evolutionary adaptation.

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God was just super testing gay people


Jul 1, 2015, 1:02 PM

It's similar to what he does with Muslims in the Middle East. I'm going to make it almost impossible for you to succeed, and if you fail, you're going to hell. Awesome! That's real love.

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is that the same thing as testing super-gay people?


Jul 1, 2015, 1:30 PM

Question 1: What was Elizabeth Taylor wearing at the Academy Awards in 1961?

Answer:___________________________________

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Much like thermo...Its the first law of religion


Jul 1, 2015, 1:31 PM [ in reply to God was just super testing gay people ]

You can't win.

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You are confusing God with Saban...


Jul 1, 2015, 1:33 PM [ in reply to God was just super testing gay people ]

I mean Satan. God made man perfect. Satan took God's perfect will and altered it. Man took God's perfect will and altered it but it altered him too. Now man is stuck with just one way out. You've heard this before so I'm not going to bore you with the story of Christ who died to reconcile you to God. ;)

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Re: You are confusing God with Saban...


Jul 1, 2015, 1:45 PM

Didn't God know this would happen? That seems like a huge oversight to me...

If you knew going into it that people will be created imperfectly and would end up in eternal torment, that doesn't seem like the actions of a benevolent being.

If god created EVERYTHING then he knew evil would be part of it. There is no logical way out of that argument. You can say Satan or humans created evil.. well ok.. but who created both of them knowing full well what would happen?

How do you justify that?

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Do you enjoy living? Are you glad you're alive?


Jul 1, 2015, 1:48 PM

If you answered yes, there's justification enough.

If you'd rather not have lived, then I guess you could be upset at what God did.

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Re: Do you enjoy living? Are you glad you're alive?


Jul 1, 2015, 1:50 PM

> If you answered yes, there's justification enough.

> If you'd rather not have lived, then I guess you could be upset at what God did.

First off, way to not answer the question.

My enjoyment of life is justification for the evil that exists in the world?

Did you just say that it is justifiable for something like ISIS to exist because I enjoy my life?

Please excuse me what I say, what the heck are you talking about?

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You asked how to justify the fact that God


Jul 1, 2015, 1:54 PM

made all this. I found it a curious question for someone to ask who has been given the grand opportunity to, well, exist.

If there were no evil, there would be no you. Would you rather not exist in a universe in which there is no evil?

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Re: You asked how to justify the fact that God


Jul 1, 2015, 1:58 PM

>You asked how to justify the fact that God made all this. I found it a curious question for someone to ask who has been given the grand opportunity to, well, exist.

No, I asked how you can justify him creating a universe that contained evil. Why is that a curious question to ask? Is it not perfectly logical for a being in an imperfect world to ask why it's imperfect?

>If there were no evil, there would be no you. Would you rather not exist in a universe in which there is no evil?

So you are saying evil HAS to exist? A few questions:

1.) Um.. why?

2.) Does heaven contain evil? If not, why couldn't everything be created this perfectly?

3.) You are saying that god can't make a universe free of evil? Not sure what to think of that.

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Of course everything could be perfect.


Jul 1, 2015, 2:07 PM

In fact, for infinite period of time prior to the creation of the earth, it was.

God loved us enough to give us an opportunity to exist, despite the fact that He knew that we would eventually introduce evil into the world. He loved us enough to give us a chance to, not only exist, but exist as He exists, perfect and eternal. And He even loved enough to do all the work for us.

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How could I reject such unfathomable love?


Jul 1, 2015, 2:09 PM

If I did, I would be deserving of so much worse than hell.

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Re: How could I reject such unfathomable love?


Jul 1, 2015, 2:14 PM

You make it sounds like it's 100% crystal clear that this choice even exits? Where do I need to look to find such evidence? The bible doesn't even make it past the 2nd chapter before giving us an internal error.

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He just does more work for some than others


Jul 1, 2015, 2:10 PM [ in reply to Of course everything could be perfect. ]

It's much easier for Prod to make it in to Heaven than little Saul Silversteen. Looks like God did the heavy lifting for you, while Saul only gets into heaven by turning his back on his parents, faith, and community.

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How do you figure?


Jul 1, 2015, 2:23 PM

That sounds like a personal or cultural valuation that isn't necessarily true. It might be the case, as Kierkegaard seemed to think, that it's harder to have an authentic faith in Christendom than it is for people who have a starker kind of decision to make.

And, of course, it's not as if there isn't a history of sin that brought people to the place of separation from God that they're born into. In fact, everybody is born into a sinful context that separates them from God, and it's only through the grace God gives that we're in any way freed from that context. But if we feel like we're born into a blessed context, then that should also motivate us even more so to be "salt and light."

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Re: How do you figure?


Jul 1, 2015, 2:28 PM

but again, you are glossing over the fact that it's extremely difficult, and thus, unfair for MOST people in the world to get into heaven if they grow up in another religion.

How difficult would it be for you to switch religions? Probably pretty hard right? Well it's easy for you to claim grace when you were most likely simply born into this situation. Why are you so special over the child who is born to muslim parents?

Sounds to me as if religion is just a cultural phenomena and you happen to be in the Christian one. There is no other significance to it outside of that. THAT makes crystal clear sense and we don't have to try to justify when one small group is special and others are not.

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Lots of words, no meaning


Jul 1, 2015, 2:32 PM [ in reply to How do you figure? ]

If you were laying down money, who would you bet on to get to heaven little Johnny born in South Carolina to 2 devoutly Christian parents. Or little Saul, born in Jerusalem to 2 devoutly Jewish parents. I know where my money would sit.

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Disagreeing doesn't mean meaningless


Jul 1, 2015, 3:19 PM

Anyway, while I might expect somebody born into a (post) Christian context is more likely to end up a Christian, I also think that there are certain difficulties presented by our culture that aren't faced in a Jewish context. One of those difficulties is that we might think we're Christians just because it's in the air- Flannery O'Connor said the south was "Christ haunted," which doesn't exactly mean Christian.

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Which still doesn't answer the fundamental question


Jul 1, 2015, 6:05 PM

How can an all loving, all knowing, all powerful God, send children he knew in the womb to an almost certain eternity in hell?

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Because it isn't "almost certain"


Jul 2, 2015, 2:33 PM

I agree that there are certain situations people can be born into that don't seem fair, and of course that bothers me too. But, for one, I look at every good thing a blessing rather than believing that I deserve good things. For another, I think certain truths are more apparent in non-Christian or post-Christian cultures than they are in Christiandom. It's not as if non-Christians or post-Christians don't have seeds of the truth.

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What is a post-Christian?***


Jul 3, 2015, 11:24 PM



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This really bothered me at one time.


Jul 3, 2015, 5:36 PM [ in reply to Which still doesn't answer the fundamental question ]

It occurred to me that my perspective was my problem. I lacked the ability to see temporal events from an eternal position. That was my first clue. I didn't have the right mind.

Assuming that God is not governed by time we understand that He knows both ends better than we know the present. The second clue is that knowing that one will not accept and receive the good news is to us predestination. I firmly believe The Apostle Paul's opinion on predestination.

Ephesians 1
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.'

Understanding that is understand how this world of those of free will plays out without interference from God. When or where one is born is insignificant in the light of that knowledge. Those predestined are 'chosen,' if we consider it from the understand of an eternal being and we have the mind of Christ. The Chosen certainly have that.

1 Corinthians 2:16

'For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.'

I can't speak for those who were not chosen. They should take that up with Him.

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Re: Of course everything could be perfect.


Jul 1, 2015, 2:13 PM [ in reply to Of course everything could be perfect. ]

It seems like you are just glossing over the whole evil and eternal torment part.

By all account, most people in the world are not christians and I think you would agree that a good percentage of those who claim to be christians still won't make it into heaven. This means that the majority of people would end up in hell in this "loving" environment you are describing.

Where is the love in that? What need was there for those people to exist? Why not just create the ones that he knew would make it to heaven?

There are way too many baffling questions to even consider believing something like this. You know what's even crazier? When you get out from under religion (not just christianity btw) all of these silly questions go away and everything makes a lot more sense. You don't find yourself trying to justify the unjustifiable.

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Re: Of course everything could be perfect.


Jul 4, 2015, 11:36 AM

> It seems like you are just glossing over the whole
> evil and eternal torment part.
>
> By all account, most people in the world are not
> christians and I think you would agree that a good
> percentage of those who claim to be christians still
> won't make it into heaven. This means that the
> majority of people would end up in hell in this
> "loving" environment you are describing.
>
> Where is the love in that? What need was there for
> those people to exist? Why not just create the ones
> that he knew would make it to heaven?
>
> There are way too many baffling questions to even
> consider believing something like this. You know
> what's even crazier? When you get out from under
> religion (not just christianity btw) all of these
> silly questions go away and everything makes a lot
> more sense. You don't find yourself trying to justify
> the unjustifiable.


Good post. This is part of the reason I don't believe in an eternal hell. It doesn't make sense.

I find it odd that we wouldn't worship a man that burned his children yet we will bow down to a creator that burns millions of his children for billions of years, for eternity.

Our life span is what about 70 or so years? Yet will spend billions of years burning for sins committed in a 70 year span. Makes a lot of sense.

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I don't think people understand hell.


Jul 4, 2015, 3:59 PM

To fully understand what hell is we must examine the reason for it's creation. The record of Satan's rebellion against God is found in Isaiah 14.

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

This is misunderstood to mean that Lucifer was trying to dethrone God. It simply says that he wants to be his own God, have his own kingdom. All he was doing was having a will other than God's. He preferred himself over God. That's exactly what we do. We don't like his record of creation and challenge His very existence. We deny Him and everything about Him including the sacrifice of His precious Son on the Cross.

Satan's will was perverting a perfect existence so God created another existence. God created a place where He does not exist. In my opinion this is one of those parable type comparisons that were so well used in the New Testament. Knowing that our physical bodies will no longer contain our consciousness the writers use the term burning. The 'burning,' will not be a torture which God inflicts on man. It's simply what our existence will be without God's presence.

I wish this on no one. Fire can't describe the misery and trillions of years does not describe eternity for in eternity there is no time.

Add to that the torment that knowing one short moment on one's knees at Calvary's Cross in acknowledgement of the Lamb which is sacrificed there and His love for us would have prevented our circumstances. Having full understanding of eternity as an existence without time rather than an existence with unlimited time will turn up the thermostat too.

You don't have to do this. There's a was out. To show that God wasn't just being a spoiled brat who owns a swimming pool and demands everything His way He created a redeemable man. Man fell to Satan's perversions of the truth and his free will was exercised counter to God will. That's exactly what Satan did. Now man is seeking exactly what Satan was seeking, to be his own God.

Folks will get exactly what they want, a place where they are alone without the presence of God and they can have a kingdom in which they reign.

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Re: I don't think people understand hell.


Jul 5, 2015, 8:04 AM

On the contrary, I don't think you understand what is so awful about this concept.

I'm having a hard time thinking of anything that would justify eternal damnation and torture.

You say that there is a way out and people "get exactly what they want". Two things:

1. People are stupid. I'm stupid and you're stupid. I mean this half-jokingly but really think about it. We make very questionable decisions all the time that we regret. Are we really equipped to make decisions on enteral matters?

I suspect one explanation is that we are chosen and don't choose at all. Which to me makes it even worse that people are literally created for the sole purpose of going to hell. WOW. That I can't even begin to imagine.

2.You make it sound like there is a crystal clear choice of heaven and hell dangling right in front of people and that the majority of us are flipping off god and choosing hell. This is so not the case. Where is this clarity that you seem to have? You reference the bible but ignore anytime an inconsistency or blatant fallacy is pointed out in it.

If people aren't even aware that he exists, how can they possibly deserve eternal hell? And for the record, no, I don't know that he exists. I have never seen any evidence, outside of personal testimony that can't be backed up. Proof of god's existence wouldn't even hold up in a court of law. How then am I supposed to know for a crystal clear fact that he is even around?

> You don't have to do this. There's a was out. To show that God wasn't just being a spoiled brat who owns a swimming pool and demands everything His way He created a redeemable man. Man fell to Satan's perversions of the truth and his free will was exercised counter to God will. That's exactly what Satan did. Now man is seeking exactly what Satan was seeking, to be his own God.

> Folks will get exactly what they want, a place where they are alone without the presence of God and they can have a kingdom in which they reign

This is just utter nonsense. I'm not seeking my own kingdom without the presence of God. That makes no sense. If there is a god and he wants to know me, I'd love to really know. Trust me I've asked and prayed for YEARS on the subject. You know what the response always is? Absolutely nothing. I suspect the same happens to everyone else.

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A Bible parable explains this much better than I.


Jul 5, 2015, 12:40 PM

Luke 16

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

We won't answer for others. We will stand alone before the Throne and give account for ourselves. The rich man lived under the law. He knew that he had not obeyed the law nor had he offered sacrifice under the law for atonement of his sin which was an acknowledgement of the coming Christ and His sacrifice. He did not claim ignorance, he thirsted for the presence of God and begged for relief.

When he was told there was no way he would get relief he did not impeach God for the fairness of his fate. He begged to return hoping to prevent others from his fate. This is a good example of what hell will be. His resistance of the truth during his times of opportunity led him to despair and acceptance of his fate.

When Christ died upon the cross He did not cry 'the flames, the flames,' He said, My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me.

1. I am stupid. I only had to make one decision to secure eternity. You only have one decision to make to change your eternity. Deciding not to make a decision is a decision in itself.

2. If there isn't a clear voice from Heaven offering you a change of destiny you'll have to take that up with God. Control over that voice is above my paygrade.

I don't waste my time defending the Bible. It's like electricity, it doesn't matter if one believes it or not when they stick their finger in an outlet they react. I just take the insulation off the wire.

When one refuses to submit to God's will they are in the process of establishing their own kingdom. Your accusing a fake god of being unfaithful to fairness, unreasonable to create a world, fill it with free willed beings thereby giving them exactly what free-will has turned it into and withdrawing His presence is an prefect example of your establishment of a kingdom.

That's all Satan wanted. To decided for himself right from wrong. He refused to take God's judgment on right and wrong. He established his own moral laws and so does man. God sacrificed His Son to take man's judgement. It's free to us but it wasn't to Him.

I've had things go all wrong in my life. I usually pitched a fit and accused God of being unfaithful, without good judgement and unfair in His dealings with my situations. He did not move from His throne and was always there when I returned to the throne room. You've always had His attention, try looking in His throne room. There isn't enough space there for two thrones so leave yours behind.

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Re: A Bible parable explains this much better than I.


Jul 5, 2015, 12:58 PM

>1. I am stupid. I only had to make one decision to secure eternity. You only have one decision to make to change your eternity. Deciding not to make a decision is a decision in itself.

Again, I think you are not understanding my argument. With this statement you are claiming that I know there is a God and that I am simply rejecting his gift. This is not true. I do not not that he is there. I have never seen or heard from him.

If we are going by this logic then I have actively denied every other religion too and so have you. I'm sure there are countless religions that I haven't even heard of, am I choosing to reject all of those? There are many people who've never heard of christianity, that's the point here.

> 2. If there isn't a clear voice from Heaven offering you a change of destiny you'll have to take that up with God. Control over that voice is above my paygrade.

Ok sure but this is the entire point of the argument and you keep deflecting. I think it is completely unfair to not make the options crystal clear before handing out eternal hell. You seem to be ok with that and simply deflect to passages to justify it.

Honest question for you, not being a jerk here. Do you think that I am lying to about my knowledge of god or something? I and countless others say that they don't know if god exists because we've never had an interaction with him yet you keep throwing it back as if it is some choice that we are making.

What I mean is, sure it's a "choice" in the sense that I choose not to believe in Zeus or Buddah due to the lack of any reason to (i.e. no interaction or evidence for it). But it is not a choice in the sense you are putting it. You make it seem like i've spoken face to face with god himself and he presented me with the options of heaven or hell and I chose hell. I've heard nothing from god, i just hear from people like you making these wild claims and then you just throw your hands up and point to the bible when questioned.

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Re: A Bible parable explains this much better than I.


Jul 5, 2015, 2:16 PM

As I said, I involved that passage of scripture because it explains that even if a man returns from the dead, which Christ did, folks wouldn't believe the truth. It was not my intent to throw anything in your face.

I honestly don't know what you believe. I'm not privy to another's thoughts. I know you've stated you don't believe in God. I know you've impeached the personality I've presented as God by saying the even the concept of hell is unfair. I've explained how the concept is fair twice on this forum and had no one give positive comments toward it.

It's as if I've dreamed the entire thing up even though it's exactly what the scripture describes but only uses fire to describe the absence of God, yet you continue to say you don't understand. Clearly, in your opinion, I've failed to describe it adequately. Sorry for my failure.




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Re: A Bible parable explains this much better than I.


Jul 5, 2015, 4:53 PM

> I've explained how the concept is fair twice on this forum and had no one give positive comments toward it.

You are not receiving positive comments, not because your comments are false per se, but that they do not in fact answer the questions. We basically ask why you think it's fair for something like hell to exist and then you say "here checkout this parable in the bible" that basically says that god sends people to hell, but never explains why.

Also, I've asked you several times if YOU think it's fair for something like hell to exist and would you be willing to send YOUR children there for any reason. I'm asking you what you think about the subject, I know what the bible says, i'm asking you what your opinion is.

Correct me if I'm wrong but i'm sensing that you have difficulty accepting this question and you think something along the lines of "yeah, I think that's a bit harsh but the bible does say it and god must have a very good reason for it so I'll go with that even though I don't understand it"

> It's as if I've dreamed the entire thing up even though it's exactly what the scripture describes but only uses fire to describe the absence of God, yet you continue to say you don't understand. Clearly, in your opinion, I've failed to describe it adequately. Sorry for my failure.

Here's the thing man, if you are going to use the bible to justify your beliefs, that is 100% cool, this is a free country and I would literally fight for your right to believe and practice any religion you want (except things that are harmful to others of course). However, if you are going to present it as evidence to others, then you should be able to tell us why we should believe it's true. Otherwise, it's not a very compelling case if you present it to someone who thinks it's fallible.

Remember, you are the one asserting the bible is true so you should be able to back up that assertion.

1 Peter 3:15 "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect"

And btw, I do commend you on the latter, you are always respectful and I do appreciate that.

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OK, here you go.


Jul 5, 2015, 7:01 PM

IMO, since that's exactly what you asked for, time is defined as the period between events reoccurring events. Seconds, hours, spins of planets around their suns, one revolution of an electron or even the rotation of a sub-sub atomic particle around an location defined by only the particle's rotation. Without a physical presence there is no time and that occurrence is my definition of eternity.

God created this universe within eternity and established time so that an imperfect world could not exist forever. It has a finite beginning and a finite end thus a finite period of existance.

God never created a rock so big He couldn't lift it. He could but He doesn't subject Himself to anything including time. If He did then He wouldn't be The Supreme Being.

He views the past, present and future as one event. Knowing that even if all were exposed to The Truth of His Son's Sacrifice on Calvary's Cross some would reject the offer of the free gift. Who would turn down a million dollars if it were tax free, had no strings, required no collateral or repayment? Only one who did not believe he was really going to receive the money. They just wouldn't believe the offer and thus with their inaction be making him who had offered a liar.

It's the responsibility of God's Holy Spirit, or His working presence in this world, to make the offer of eternal life. Some may not get the offer but a God who sees past, present and future knows that it's all trivial.

From the perspective of the carnal/flesh mind it's called predestination. So yes, some are born with God knowing before the foundation of the world that they would not accept the gift. They are calling Him a liar when the refuse the million dollars tax free with no collateral and no repayment plan.

I can't offer the gift. If I could I would use a sales pitch with a money back guarantee and high pressure such as it's the last one on the market and everyone is wanting it. The truth is that most people, including Christians, want to work things out on their own. They believe they are so proficient at determining right from wrong that they can ride that fine line and make themselves acceptable to God. That fine line is at the foot of The Cross. Everybody on that one particular cross is perfect while the rest of us are stuck together on the other side.

Sorry I wasn't clear the last three times I tried to explain this.

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Re: OK, here you go.


Jul 6, 2015, 9:28 AM

I see what you are saying, and thanks for writing that reply.

I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree. I have a really hard time grasping the fact that something is being offered here (eternal life) and yet it is surrounded by vagueness. It just seems like something this insanely important would be perfectly crystal clear given the stakes.

I don't know man, I do respect you and your opinion and I do love your passion but I just don't think this stuff has any substance behind it.

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Re: OK, here you go.


Jul 6, 2015, 3:09 PM

Are you aware that I'm considered an heretic for claiming to understand God's perspective about such issues? It's just a matter of taking a few of what some call inconsistencies in the Scripture and requesting that those hidden truths be revealed.

The good thing about this entire thread is that none of us are required to pass a theology exam to get into Heaven. Either Christ is who He said He was or He's a liar. It's just like the employer who offers to pay by the day. Those who arrive late get the same pay as those who worked since dawn. It all pays the same, just make sure you show up before quittin' time.

I give my permission for you to evolved for me if you won't complain about me praying for you? I'm sure I won't mind the least. :)

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Re: OK, here you go.


Jul 6, 2015, 7:47 PM

"Either Christ is who He said He was or He's a liar."

It's also possible that the Jesus figure as depicted in the Bible is a myth.

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I abide in Christ.


Jul 6, 2015, 9:30 PM

So no, I'm probably not going to agree.

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Re: I abide in Christ.


Jul 6, 2015, 10:53 PM

You can't even open your mind far enough to admit the possibility, no matter how slight, that the stories attributed to Jesus were embellished, and over the years turned into the Jesus myth we know today?

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hmmm...


Jul 7, 2015, 12:00 AM

Have you not read my post in this thread? Did you not read my testimony? I was lost for two decades when He saved my wretched, miserable soul. I have been where you are, I do not believe you have been where I am. I said I abide with Him. Do people often tell you that you don't know where you live or that your house is a delusion? You are rude.

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And that's a problem with religious discussions.


Jul 7, 2015, 9:28 AM

Every other sort of belief that we have can be scrutinized and challenged, without fear that the mere challenge is "rude" or otherwise inappropriate.

But if you merely point out the possibility of someone's belief about religion being incorrect--even on a Politics & Religion board--you can be accused of bad behavior.

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Challenged and scrutinized?


Jul 7, 2015, 11:53 AM

Calling someone narrow minded is challenging or scrutinizing their belief? Pointing out bad behavior is rude. You're right, I should have shown patients and explained myself to Bob.

There's no excuse for my lashing out. I won't offer one, I offer an apology. An apology and an honest clear response to the question.

Yes, I've questioned my belief thousands of times. I've questioned myself with all vigor. I've reasoned. I've questioned God with both that vigor and in humility. I found only one approach worked.

How many times shall a man input 2+2 in a calculator until he believes that 2+2 equals 4 and that the calculator is trustworthy? If one trust his calculator why shouldn't I trust Him who I understand the workings of more than another understands the workings of his trusty calculator?


Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®


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Re: Challenged and scrutinized?


Jul 7, 2015, 12:56 PM

Thoughtful response. I'll avoid the topic of what happens when people's calculators keep showing different results for 2 + 2, and just respond to this question you asked:

Calling someone narrow minded is challenging or scrutinizing their belief?

What bobcobb actually said was:
"You can't even open your mind far enough to admit the possibility, no matter how slight, that the stories attributed to Jesus were embellished, and over the years turned into the Jesus myth we know today?"

Unless we give religious beliefs special status in our discussions, bobcobb's statement is only as rude as, say, this statement by a climate change denier to a climate change believer:
"You can't even open your mind far enough to admit the possibility, no matter how slight, that the science supporting global warming is false, and that many scientists are actually biased liberals who ignore data that doesn't go their way?"


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I apologized.


Jul 7, 2015, 12:59 PM

What would you ask of me? Has anyone asked if I had reviewed the history of the Four men who wrote the Gospels and the validity of their testamonys?

No, you both assumed to know more about what I know than do I. Here you presume to continue to question whether or not I've questioned myself and my belief, yet I'm continuing to apologize for my omissions from my resume.


Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®


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Re: I apologized.


Jul 7, 2015, 1:18 PM

Thanks, and you certainly do not need to apologize to me for anything. I assumed nothing, and my remarks were only focused on the difficulty in questioning people's religious beliefs as opposed to questioning their beliefs about other things.

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I erred, assuming everyone had read all my responses to


Jul 7, 2015, 2:17 PM

darealmvp. We covered my 'conversion,' and the remodeling God had done in my life.

I'll explore the calculator exercise with you at your convenience.

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can someone close this thread


Jul 7, 2015, 3:26 PM

I'm sick of it appearing on my screen

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Re: can someone close this thread


Jul 7, 2015, 5:07 PM

Ah forgot this was board revolved around you. Our bad, we'll move along.

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I don't know. How do you close a thread?***


Jul 9, 2015, 12:35 PM [ in reply to can someone close this thread ]



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Asking for it to be closed doesn't seem to be working.


Jul 9, 2015, 12:38 PM

Cutting off a computer or not opening the site or board where it's found might be the best way to avoid seeing it on one's screen.

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Good point.


Jul 14, 2015, 12:55 PM

Xtiger, read ClemsonTiger1988's point.

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At ain't rite!


Jul 14, 2015, 8:02 PM

Don't get him started on me.

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good point.


Jul 14, 2015, 10:31 PM [ in reply to can someone close this thread ]

lol

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Re: hmmm...


Jul 7, 2015, 3:52 PM [ in reply to hmmm... ]

All I did was ask a simple question. I'm trying to understand your beliefs, not imply that you are deluded.

You always say you want to have a discussion, but when someone like me asks a question that might make you uncomfortable to think about, you call me rude and avoid answering.

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Re: hmmm...


Jul 7, 2015, 5:08 PM

I concur with this sentiment. Would love to be able to debate without being called rude or accused of "attacking" beliefs.

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Sorry guys.


Jul 7, 2015, 6:30 PM

I assumed you'd both read my entries in this thread.

Yes, I have doubted the validity of the Bible, the existence of God and the divinity of Christ just as one makes a mental evaluation any statements of others. That's called reason. I'm pretty fair at it, I think. Good enough for my purpose anyway.

If you two wish to discuss arguments counter to my beliefs perhaps I'll choose not to participate. As you said, we should agree to disagree.

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Bro


Jul 14, 2015, 10:27 PM [ in reply to Re: A Bible parable explains this much better than I. ]

that is some strong stuff.

this is my thumbs up,

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Yep.


Jul 1, 2015, 3:38 PM [ in reply to Re: You are confusing God with Saban... ]

I explained that to you several days ago.

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Re: Yep.


Jul 1, 2015, 3:47 PM

Link?

I don't recall it being explained

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I'm sorry.


Jul 1, 2015, 3:49 PM

You want the whole nine yards or the reader's digest version?

Can we do this with Tmail? This thread is getting long and it's hard to keep my place here.


Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®


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Re: I'm sorry.


Jul 1, 2015, 4:37 PM

Nah, don't worry about it.

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Knowing acid and water are mixed safely in only one way...


Jul 2, 2015, 10:43 AM [ in reply to Re: You are confusing God with Saban... ]

does not make one responsible for those who ignore warnings of the danger. It doesn't matter if it's your water and acid. God told Adam and Eve that the day they took of a particular tree they would die. They had a fair warning from God their creator. They also were aware of their free will.

Had God intervened in such a seemingly insignificant activity man would not have free will. Imagine that.

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Re: Knowing acid and water are mixed safely in only one way...


Jul 2, 2015, 11:55 AM

This doesn't explain the fact that he knew for 100% fact that they would disobey and cause every person born after that to be born under sin (through no fault or choice of their own).

He created and allowed evil to exist by definition.

Imagine this, you and your wife have 10 kids but before they were ever born, you knew that 9 out of 10 of them would disobey you and would banished to hell.

Would you still knowing have them knowing that to be true? I sure wouldn't. Sure, If I told them what would happen and they disobeyed then they would "know the consequences" but that doesn't make it ok. If I knew going into it what would definitely happen to them, how is that not on me? Disobeying me, or even denying my exisitance)

We are all gods children right? Are you saying he's ok creating a place where most of us would end up in hell?

> Had God intervened in such a seemingly insignificant activity man would not have free will. Imagine that.

I've never understood this argument. What does having free will have to do with the ridiculously harsh nature of eternal damnation?

You are telling me that it is fair for a child who was born and raised a hardcore muslim (or insert whatever non-christian ideology here) deserves eternal damnation and torture because of something he literally had no control over? That seems beyond ridiculous to me and for you to try and justify it just baffles me.

I'm sure you are a good person and all but what makes you so special over that child?

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.


Jul 3, 2015, 5:42 PM

http://www.tigernet.com/forums/message.jspa?messageID=17443169

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So Satan makes people gay?


Jul 1, 2015, 2:06 PM [ in reply to You are confusing God with Saban... ]

He also has people born into Jewish, Hindu, Muslim and Seik families? Seems like God is giving up too easy, or job just doesn't understand sociology.

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No.


Jul 1, 2015, 3:45 PM

Degradation (de-evolution) of our DNA is responsible.

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If God made people sinful and gay on purpose, then a


Jul 1, 2015, 1:29 PM [ in reply to Holy non-sequitur ]

perfect being made an imperfect creation... on purpose?



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Re: If God made people sinful and gay on purpose, then a


Jul 1, 2015, 2:10 PM

God didn't create people imperfect, but created the conditions in which people had the choice to become imperfect. "Original sin" is the historical reflection of the sinful choices made in the past, the sinful nature which is the context into which we're born.

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Seems like something that could be overcome


Jul 1, 2015, 2:15 PM

Because Omni God

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Maybe


Jul 1, 2015, 3:02 PM

But I think one implication of "God is love" is that free self giving (in a relationship) is a fundamental part of reality. If God is love, then the world created by God would naturally be a world in which the highest truth could only be gotten relationally instead of being something abstract that really didn't concern us. To paraphrase Dostoyevsky, 2+2 might be 4, but what's that to me? Truth that really matters to us needs to be loved for us to grasp it, and we only really love when we're willing to give all of ourselves.

Some of the continental philosophers (Heidegger, Levinas, Marion, Derrida, etc.- mainly phenomenologists) have realized something like this in their philosophy, which is why there's been a "theological turn" recently. That story is told pretty well here: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/cosmostheinlost/2013/12/02/jacques-derrida-theologian-conservative-top10-sufficient-reasons/

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Oh, there are certainly "imperfect" people.


Jul 1, 2015, 2:57 PM [ in reply to Re: If God made people sinful and gay on purpose, then a ]

From the child who is doomed to death before its born due to genetic abnormalities, to the murdering 14 year old in a high school, there is plenty of imperfection around us. In fact, imperfection is all there is around us. Nothing is perfect.

And because of that, if God is the creator of all heaven and earth, my religious thought process halts there. There's no real need to point out the logic holes and the unbelievabilities and blame it on "not being able to fathom God's reasoning".

A supposedly omnipotent, perfect creature could not create imperfection, even if it so wished.

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I'm not sure that makes any sense


Jul 1, 2015, 3:34 PM

If we're just talking about a god who is perfect, I don't see why it wouldn't be able to create things with imperfections if it wanted to. The question would just be why it would want to.

Also, you pretty much just ignored everything I said in that post and went straight to something I didn't say- "not being able to fathom God's reasoning" (which must have been quoted from your own mind).

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Re: I'm not sure that makes any sense


Jul 1, 2015, 3:51 PM

> If we're just talking about a god who is perfect, I don't see why it wouldn't be able to create things with imperfections if it wanted to. The question would just be why it would want to.

How do you explain that the universe appears to have been created naturally and that there is no empirical evidence for the existence of god whatsoever?

It's easy to reason about world with violence and hurt when you look at it from the perspective that this all occurred naturally. It's only when you introduce religion that it become a jumbled logical mess.

Every organism's ancestors had to fight and claw it's way trough life in order to survive. Our "evil" nature is just a remnant of that past. "Good" and "Evil" are simply the way we defined actions people make, but there isn't a "good" or "evil" force out there.

It's all pretty simply if you take of the religious glasses and just look at the evidence. Sure, there's still tons of stuff we don't know, however, introducing a devine creator just complicates things.

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Well, it explains that religion was originally meant to


Jul 1, 2015, 3:57 PM

keep the masses in line with minimal effort. Do something we (the ruling class) don't want? God's gonna punish you!

A lot of that nonsenses is not that far removed from the savages in the middle east chopping off a woman's head because they said she was involved in witch craft.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3144213/ISIS-executes-women-beheading-time-group-kills-two-married-couples-witchcraft-sorcery-Syria.html

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You sound like you're mad at God.


Jul 1, 2015, 3:48 PM [ in reply to Oh, there are certainly "imperfect" people. ]

That's a really good place to be. No kidding.

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Lulz. no, not mad at anything.


Jul 1, 2015, 3:53 PM

Especially at a fairy tale omnipotent. God's followers bother me sometimes, but if there is a God then I guess he is the one to ultimately judge, not anyone else. The condescending attitude and simply explaining away of the huge logical fallacies I got tired of decades ago.

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That's not the worst insult you can levy against Him.


Jul 1, 2015, 5:00 PM

When you know He's real and things don't turn out your way so you sulk up like a two year old and break fellowship with Him. That bothers Him, but He's always waiting right where I left Him when the tantrum is over.

It's turns out to be no more than a denial of His word which is accusing Him of lying and not being faithful.

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

"I don't believe in You," isn't an insult at all.

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I'm not trying to insult anyone.


Jul 1, 2015, 5:03 PM

"Him" or "His" or Buddha.

It's all a bronze age fairy tale.

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Interesting Screen shot


Jul 1, 2015, 5:04 PM [ in reply to That's not the worst insult you can levy against Him. ]



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For relaxing times, make it Suntory time


I didn't cause that post pulse to be 666.


Jul 1, 2015, 5:26 PM

I'm gonna go apply one of my few and far between TDs to fix it.

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Re: Holy non-sequitur


Jul 1, 2015, 2:51 PM [ in reply to Holy non-sequitur ]

> Somebody who's attracted to somebody of the same sex doesn't have to act on their attraction, which would mean that their homosexual desire doesn't constitute a "gay" sexual identity as we've currently constructed it.

Oh, my total lack of attraction to women means I'm just not thinking hard enough? Who knew?!

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What, now?


Jul 1, 2015, 3:28 PM

I really don't know how you got that from what I wrote. What I said is that being attracted to men or not being attracted to women doesn't mean you have to follow the scr!pt currently laid out for people who identify as gay. We tend to think of our own constructs as the natural ones that everyone should follow. I think that's especially the case with sexuality because it's become a controversial political topic. But, at the very least, we ought to become a little suspicious of our categories of sexuality when we know that same-sex sexual activity occurred in other cultures in other times (and, even, in our own) without the same concept of "gay" or "straight."

What I'm saying is actually more in line with queer theories of sexuality, except that queer theorists don't seem to realize their kinship to Christian sexual theology.


Message was edited by: camcgee®


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How do you reconcile your opinion about gender


Jul 1, 2015, 4:10 PM [ in reply to Holy non-sequitur ]

with the logic behind your logic behind this quote; "This gets at what seems to be your assumption that whatever natural desires we have constitute an identity that can't be questioned."

How do you parse gender identity and sexual identity?

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Re: How do you reconcile your opinion about gender


Jul 1, 2015, 5:23 PM

Two things, first:

1. If we want to be able to say that we ought not act on some particular desire of ours, then we need to understand that it really might be the case that an identity we've constructed around certain things we want can and ought to come into conflict with other identities/ beliefs we hold.

2. Our current categories of sexuality are, at least in part, social constructions. There's no direct line from being attracted to somebody of the opposite sex or to somebody of the same sex and what we think of as "being straight" or "being gay" (although I don't think the scope of social construction is the same for people who are opposite sex attracted and people who are same sex attracted). So our current conception of sexuality assumes that our identities ought to be formed based on whatever our desire is, and that nothing else can judge that desire (maybe with the exception of consent).

Transsexualism is along the same lines. Unquestionable desire is supreme, and the bodies we're given aren't as important as what we will our bodies to be. Yes, certain things we expect men and women to do are social constructions, but the construction doesn't go all the way down to sex and sexual functioning itself. And we also subordinate certain parts of our male and female identities to other beliefs/ identities in the same way we might subordinate our sexual desire.

So my problem with queer theorists/ postmodernists isn't that they recognize the contestability of our conceptions of sexuality, it's that they seem to think we're free to impose any interpretation we wish on our bodies. They also don't seem to recognize that when they deconstruct what we think of as natural, they're also opening us up to more radical theological interpretations of the body.

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Why do you say it's unquestioned?


Jul 1, 2015, 8:53 PM

gender reassignment surgery has to be prescribed by a therapist and is part of a transgender's therapy--usually when all other methods are extinguished. That to me isn't unquestioned.

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See Paul McHugh on that question


Jul 2, 2015, 8:51 PM

I suppose I'm being a little bit inaccurate when I say that it's entirely unquestioned, but at bottom what the therapist is doing is determining whether the person REALLY wants to be a different sex than they are. If they do, then certain therapists prescribe "reassignment" because they really think that the problem is the body, not the desire. What the mind wants is what's meaningful, not the body, to the point that we're calling mutilating the body to fit what the mind wants a "therapy."

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it's usually prescribed for the health of the patient


Jul 2, 2015, 4:41 PM

and after long years of treating the dysmorphia (or assumption) this would entail "desire." And it's almost always treated with sincere apprehension (if the psychiatrist is any good at his profession).

As for Dr. McHugh, he described clergy pedophilia abuse as "homosexual predation on American Catholic youth.” (as others like Bill Donahue have also argued, absurdly.) I read his OP-Ed he wrote in the WSJ, and if you look up the Swedish study he cites, he's not telling the whole story.

From the study's conclusion:
"In accordance, the overall mortality rate was only significantly increased for the group operated before 1989. However, the latter might also be explained by improved health care for transsexual persons during 1990s, along with altered societal attitudes towards persons with different gender expressions."
...

"This suggests that even though sex reassignment alleviates gender dysphoria, there is a need to identify and treat co-occurring psychiatric morbidity in transsexual persons not only before but also after sex reassignment."

But regardless of all that, how are you separating mind and body? Specifically, what the mind wants and what the body wants? This makes no sense to me.

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That's the view I'm criticizing, not what I think***


Jul 4, 2015, 12:21 AM



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It all goes back to the nature of God, that is what God is


Jul 1, 2015, 4:37 PM [ in reply to Holy non-sequitur ]

and what God isn't. The bottom line is, if God is an all-powerful creator being, as so many people seem to believe, nothing would exist, including sin and pain and suffering, if God did not want it to exist.

Therefore, either God wants homosexuals to exist, or he doesn't but just can't do anything about it.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


I can kind of go along with that...


Jul 1, 2015, 5:27 PM

we just need to be clear what we mean by "homosexuals." God obviously wants the people who identify as gay to exist, but I'm not sure that means God wants people who identify as "gay" to act according to what we currently thing "being gay" means.

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If God doesn't want people to act that way, why does


Jul 1, 2015, 8:56 PM

he allow it? Unless, of course, he can't prevent it.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


Re: If God doesn't want people to act that way, why does


Jul 2, 2015, 2:07 PM

You're confusing the existence of the desire ("concupiscence") with the behavior. There are lots of things we desire that we don't and shouldn't act on. I don't think I need to get into why homosexual desire shouldn't be acted on (or, at least, why homosexual desire doesn't have to equate with gay sex) to point out that the mere existence of certain disordered desires doesn't equate God "allowing" what we think of as the gay identity (which includes homosexual behavior). That would be like saying that God was responsibility for obesity because of people's desire to eat more than they should.

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No, I get all of that, but you are missing my point.


Jul 2, 2015, 4:17 PM

If God is all powerful, then nothing exists, including any desire or behavior, unless God wants it to exist.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


Re: What's even more mind blowing


Jul 1, 2015, 4:30 PM [ in reply to What's even more mind blowing ]

Speaking from experience?

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For relaxing times, make it Suntory time


I do agree in that...


Jul 1, 2015, 9:56 AM

If you're going to argue against evolutionary theory using science and/or logic (by pointing out "inconsistencies" or "failing"), you better be prepared to defend whatever you believe based on science and/or logic.

My belief in creation is based on belief in the Bible as the Word of God, by faith. Nothing more, nothing less. So I make it a point, personally, to leave the science of evolution alone. Let it stand for what it is.

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Re: I do agree in that...


Jul 1, 2015, 10:21 AM

i think those are great points.

I have absolutely no issue with people have religious beliefs. The only point of contention for me is when people try to use science to refute one of the most well established theories in all of science.

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Yes, and on the record, I am against "intelligent design"


Jul 1, 2015, 10:31 AM

and teaching creation in science classes.

Creation is not a science. It is a doctrine.

As I've mentioned before, I have a very scientific mind, and a lot of scientific background and experience. I used to have some trouble with science and the Bible, and apparent conflicts between the two, until I really got a hold of 1 Corinthians 2:4-5:

And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.


God taught me that the things of the Bible aren't there for me to wrap my scientific head around. They're way beyond anything that my mind or any scientific mind can explain. So I had to be content accepting by faith that which I cannot see or understand. It is the Holy Spirit, not my brain, that consequently gave me assurance of its truth.

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Are you trying to convience me


Jul 1, 2015, 11:56 AM

or yourself?

I already know The Truth and I believe you do too.

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Re: Are you trying to convience me


Jul 1, 2015, 1:12 PM

No convincing required my friend, a simple look at the evidence is all that's needed.

Want to compare evidence? I think you'll lose that one.

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Yeah, you start,


Jul 1, 2015, 1:29 PM

tell me how evolution has changed your life. I've got all day.


Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®


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Re: Yeah, you start,


Jul 1, 2015, 1:41 PM

> Yeah, you start, tell me how evolution has changed your life. I've got all day.

Well, how it changed my life wasn't the question but it did give us all life so...

Which do you want to go over first?

1. Evolution reproduced in the lab
2. Fossil evidence
3. Genetic evidence
4. molecular evidence
5. Evidence from proteins
6. Vestigial and atavistic organs
7. Embryology
8. Biogeography
9. Homology
10. Bacteriology, virology, immunology

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No, how it changed your life was and still is the question.


Jul 1, 2015, 2:10 PM

How does it benefit you, specifically?

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Re: No, how it changed your life was and still is the question.


Jul 1, 2015, 2:20 PM

I asked you this "Want to compare evidence? I think you'll lose that one. " And you stated yes, and that you had all day....

So you did change the question but whatever I'll play.


> "How does it benefit you, specifically? "

Well.. it explains the diversity of live and literally allows me us to have this exchange, so that is a pretty big one...

Evolution by natural selection is the cornerstone of modern biology and allows us to understand our bodies and thus elongate our lifespans through new medical advances.

Is that good enough?

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Re: No, how it changed your life was and still is the question.


Jul 1, 2015, 2:24 PM [ in reply to No, how it changed your life was and still is the question. ]

One more thing. Whether or not evolution benefits me one way or another exactly zero bearing on it's validity so i'm not sure what the point of this question even is.

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Just to be kind...


Jul 1, 2015, 2:58 PM

how Jesus has changed my life has everything to do with my end of this discussion. As poor a person as I may be now, those who knew me before can see the change in my life.

Older folks will remember the night depositories on banks. They were no more than a chute and a metal flap which covered the opening. I devised a plan using a coat hanger, pillowcase, needle, thread and duct tape to trap the deposits in the chute. When they put it in, I took it out. When the FBI arrested me I had been stead at it for almost three weeks. It impressed the investigators that an 18 yo high school drop out could take advantage over banks they protected using cheap and simple things everybody had around the house. I was a high school dropout who had no respect for humans including myself. They arrested me but did not prosecute.

The previous several years I felt as if I was traveling down a hallway with no windows and doors. I was tunneled into the future while being controlled by passions and instinct to go the distance. It appeared I had only one way out, continue to where fate would take me. I could hear a voice behind me but I refused to turn around or even slow my pace.

My father died about a week after the bank job. God grabbed my shoulder and said 'Stop and listen.' I got saved that night. I was almost 30 before He brought me in line enough to finish my education. He didn't wave a magic wand and make me perfect. He created in me a will to resist the world. Sometimes I get out of hand but I'm nothing like the person I was when He finally stopped me in that hallway.


I was just wondering if evolution made your life better.

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Your belief in God seems to be a crutch in your thinking.


Jul 1, 2015, 3:04 PM

You're saying there is no way you could have been simply shocked into reality of what you were doing? Like maybe..."Hey..I can go to jail doing this dumb ####. I better get my ### straight now".

You could believe a tree or rock told you the same thing to get your act together (as noted..at least those things are real), and if you truly believed it, how would the outcome have been any different?

I find it a bit humorous that we think of ancient greeks and romans as almost childlike that they believed in the gods they did. Or that Christians are so sure that Hindus, Muslims,Buddhists, Sihks, and Jews are all so wrong in their beliefs.

Other than that feeling that "you just know", ever wonder why everyone else is wrong, but you're so right? Why the arrogance?

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Probably...


Jul 1, 2015, 3:26 PM

not.

An epiphany would/could not alter a man's view of everything. Would I have quit robbing banks? Maybe but does anyone who gets busted for robbing banks quit being dishonest, unfaithful, insubordinate, filled with all unrighteousness, fornicator, wicked, covetous, malicious full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignant, a backbiters, hater of God, spiteful, proud, boaster, inventor of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenant breaker, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful?

Nah, for me this was a problem of the soul.

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The thing about religion and faith is that there is


Jul 1, 2015, 3:50 PM

little if anything either of us is going to say that will change the other's mind. I mean Cam can try and can get as condescending and intolerant of other people's views as possible, and its only going to make him look like an ###.

Discussing it is kind of dumb, really.

Its like the two Mormons that bicycled up to my front door the other day. Nice guys from all outward appearances, and I hate they were doing that in ties when its about 99 degrees out. But hey, that's their thing.

I was nice enough to them and once they figured out no matter what they said, I was just going to go straight to hell and burn for eternity. They backed off and pedaled away in the sunset.

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Condemnation is above my paygrade.


Jul 1, 2015, 5:30 PM

If I've given anyone here, besides geechie, that impression I apologize. It's all in fun with geechie. I enjoy point out his self contradicting post and watching him squirm.

I wouldn't send anyone to helll if I could. It's a place without God and contrary to what secular folks think, this world isn't without God.


Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®


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Re: Condemnation is above my paygrade.


Jul 1, 2015, 7:37 PM

I am glad you posted that,i almost thought you could send people
to he!!.


Message was edited by: irmotig®


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I try not to anger people when discussing what I believe.


Jul 2, 2015, 10:45 AM

When it's something I don't believe like USuCK's football history it's not so easy.

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I'd imagine that if you really believed a rock or a tree


Jul 1, 2015, 1:41 PM [ in reply to Yeah, you start, ]

were your god, that could change your life just as well. Any thought you really believe in would change your life.

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Re: I'd imagine that if you really believed a rock or a tree


Jul 1, 2015, 1:47 PM

Not to mention there is physical evidence that the rock and tree even exist...

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Before I believed in God I believed in drugs and thugs.


Jul 1, 2015, 3:04 PM [ in reply to I'd imagine that if you really believed a rock or a tree ]

If we consider how much belief will change a life then I'd compare my belief to anyone's. I've not heard anyone testify that a rock,a tree or evolution made fundamental and complete changes in their lives.

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I bet if you asked a Scientoligist how their belief affected


Jul 1, 2015, 3:07 PM

their life, it would be a similar story to yours.

Think they are crazy for believing in Xenu and the aliens are coming get them? Sure you do.

But they don't.

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Nah, I think they are deceived.


Jul 1, 2015, 3:27 PM

It's a common issue which started in the garden.

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Re: Nah, I think they are deceived.


Jul 1, 2015, 3:33 PM

How are you so sure you aren't being deceived? Wouldn't all the other religions call you deceived?

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They'd call me an ignorant heathen.


Jul 1, 2015, 5:38 PM

A couple of them would try to murder me.

As far as how I know I'm right, it's because God is the only thing I'm sure of. Should I believe you if you say you have a friend who has continually blessed you in wonderful ways? Yes, I would ask to meet him.

The bottom line is, I say the Bible is true. You say it isn't. It claims to be the Truth, The Word of God. You say it's a magic book, a fable and a fairy tale.

I say, I've been exactly where you are.

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Re: They'd call me an ignorant heathen.


Jul 1, 2015, 5:45 PM

But I mean, the bible doesn't even make it past the 2nd chapter before giving a conflicting account of creation. Why should one believe that it's the infallible truth if there are blatant internal (not to mention external) issues with it?

It is so unreasonable of me to react that way?

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Your opinion isn't changed by what you deem...


Jul 2, 2015, 10:49 AM

conflicts and ambiguities in the Bible. You just use that to support your disbelief in God.

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Re: Your opinion isn't changed by what you deem...


Jul 2, 2015, 12:39 PM

I'm sorry man, but talk about the pot calling the kettle black. You are finding ways to support your belief in god, you are not coming from an objective default position.

I believe what I have evidence or at least reasonable reason based on heuristics to believe.

> Your opinion isn't changed by what you deem conflicts and ambiguities in the Bible

It most certainly was. Evidence led to a changing of the mind not the other way around.

> You just use that to support your disbelief in God.

Let's make one thing crystal clear. You are a person claiming that there is a God and thus the onus is on you to back up that claim. Otherwise, I could just say, "Zeus is real, prove me wrong!". See how poorly that would work?

Also, the Bible does have a conflicting account in genesis 1 and 2. So if that's the case, the bible is clearly not infallible. I don't need evidence to NOT believe in something. I don't believe in ghosts either, do I need to prove they don't exist too?

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Re: Your opinion isn't changed by what you deem...


Jul 2, 2015, 1:46 PM

The origin of my belief in God came from a personal experience with Him. I'm not denying that I look for evidence to show others He is real. I also know that it's not 'scientific,' to believe He exist, much less that He pays any attention to humans.

I did not ask you to prove anything. I made a statement, you use the 'conflicts,' in the Bible to weaken another's opinion thereby lending support for your own. I take shots at evolutionist regularly. I don't take it personally and you shouldn't either. I think the venom spewed by evolutionist is generally indicative of their emotional attachment to evolution. A good example is the constant denigrating, badgering and condescending to us suggest that.

I was fully aware of my position concerning God. I do not attempt to support my position by posting portions of scripture. From my understanding Scripture is the Sword of The Spirit. I doubt I could lift it much less swing it. I post Scripture because, from my perspective, it's helpful to others to understand the details of my belief and where they originated.

I always try to be civil during our communications and hope you will too. If I have gotten rude please forgive me, I apologize.

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Re: Your opinion isn't changed by what you deem...


Jul 2, 2015, 2:02 PM

>The origin of my belief in God came from a personal experience with Him. I'm not denying that I look for evidence to show others He is real. I also know that it's not 'scientific,' to believe He exist, much less that He pays any attention to humans.

Are you not troubled by the conflicts I mentioned in the bible?

>I did not ask you to prove anything. I made a statement, you use the 'conflicts,' in the Bible to weaken another's opinion thereby lending support for your own.

You made the claim that I was using the conflicts to support my disbelief in god. That's exactly what you said. Which is fine, whatever but it's reasonable to see come to the conclusion that the bible has errors if there is an ... error in the bible.

> I think the venom spewed by evolutionist is generally indicative of their emotional attachment to evolution. A good example is the constant denigrating, badgering and condescending to us suggest that.

Let's be real for a minute, this happens equally on both sides of the argument. Either way, emotions don't change reality. No matter how mad either of us get.

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Have I had responded to you with an emotional outburst?


Jul 2, 2015, 2:25 PM

There is no burden on me to prove anything. My burden is to continue to believe that God is faithful. Some times are more difficult than others. Sometimes I have a burden for another's soul. My prayer list is short and so are my prayers. I just want God to have His way.

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Re: Have I had responded to you with an emotional outburst?


Jul 2, 2015, 2:51 PM

> There is no burden on me to prove anything.

I'm not talking about your religion convictions to prove something, I'm talking about debating. Yes, if you claim that god exists then it is up to you to back up what you are asserting. Otherwise, by definition, you are losing the argument.

The same onus is on my to provide evidence, which I have, for evolution since I am claiming that it is true.

> My burden is to continue to believe that God is faithful. Some times are more difficult than others. Sometimes I have a burden for another's soul. My prayer list is short and so are my prayers. I just want God to have His way.

Why are you on a forum about religion if you don't want to discuss it?

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I presented personal testimony.


Jul 2, 2015, 2:54 PM

If there's a loser here I guess it's me.

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Evolution is


Jul 2, 2015, 10:52 AM

an exact Science. It has also afforded me a great career and many fond memories. I wish I could name the best ones that I have known, but there is a plethora of scientist's that are in the running. I hope that I do not detract from your strong posts on the subject. I hope that you continue in spite of your unreasoned detractors. Believe me, I have a corpulent flow of confused opposition against anything I post on P&R. It excites me no end. Best wishes.

Go Tigers, fight harder when the odds are against you.

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Bless your heart.***


Jul 2, 2015, 1:47 PM



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Re: Bless your heart.***


Jul 2, 2015, 2:03 PM

Didn't you just tell me that you try not to be condescending when talking to "evolutionists"?

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Busted.


Jul 2, 2015, 2:17 PM

It really wasn't about evolution, I poke at geechie about everything. Well, it's kinda about evolution since that's what his post was about, so yeah, busted.

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I'm certainly not concerned by his


Jul 3, 2015, 9:40 AM [ in reply to Re: Bless your heart.*** ]

buffoonery, there is a copious flow of hatred toward me here. They are like a pack of coots trying to rattle a true Tiger. They are harmless , but if any one of them tries to "poke me", they will go home without a poker. It's as simple as that.

Back to the evolution discussion, all learned folk are with you. Good work and best regards.

Go Tigers, never act like coots.

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Hi guys! What's going on in this thread?***


Jul 2, 2015, 2:38 PM



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Started with Creationist-Bashing...but evolved from there.*****


Jul 2, 2015, 2:41 PM



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null


Quite the intelligent design.***


Jul 2, 2015, 2:59 PM



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I din't think evolution was true either,


Jul 2, 2015, 2:46 PM

until I took a class in the subject and read the texts. The evidence for it is enormous and fairly easy to understand.

I was raised southern baptist and as a young earth creationist. The info pertaining to evolution we were given in church and youth groups was deeply flawed and in some instances simply made up. If you're getting scientific info in church or from websites like the one Ken Ham is running you are simply getting bad info from folks who really don't know what they're talking about.

Luckily, I realized that the info I was given didn't pass the smell test and set out to find out the truth on my own.

Evolution is a pretty easy concept to understand, and the info corroborating it is enormous. If folks are really interested in learning about it I'd suggest auditing a course in evolutionary biology at Clemson or whatever local university/college you're near. The experience will be eye opening for those folks who think there's no evidence for it or think that it's some sort of attempt to subvert religion, and Christianity in particular. In fact, I'd bet that religion isn't mentioned at all during the course. It wasn't in mine.

I'm really not interested in getting into a debate on this subject with folks who don't have an open mind on the subject, so I likely won't respond again in this thread. Just wanted to share my experience and offer a suggestion on how to learn more about this subject from a source with good information.

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Re: I din't think evolution was true either,


Jul 2, 2015, 2:48 PM

Don't leave, then we'll just be left with people who don't understand evolution.

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Are you trying to interfere with natural selection!?!***


Jul 2, 2015, 3:00 PM



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null


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