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Replies: 24
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CU Guru [1581]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 2501
Joined: 4/16/09
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just stop
Oct 13, 2015, 9:51 AM
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I heard some very interesting statistics yesterday and so far they seem accurate. Since I have not verified everything, I will refrain from quoting specifics but I know enough to at least comment. In the mean time, you might find it interesting to look at the gun deaths considering the portion that are suicide and nobody else is hurt. While you're at it, check out the probability of suicide by gun verses some other method.
All this effort being put behind gun control laws is stupid. There are so many more things that hurt and kill innocent people that very little is being done about. It's always the big bad guns. Please stop. I have never hurt anyone with my guns and it is very possible I may never need to but I'll be danged if I'll give them up. I will not go along sheepishly being disarmed as so many have in the past just prior to their demise. I will not debate you about my need to be prepared to defend myself and my family against tyranny. I don't owe you that. If you want to criminalize something I do with a gun, make sure it actually could result in somebody being hurt. History is filled with government disarmament of its citizens happening over and over and I see no evidence that the threat is gone. Actually, I see quite the opposite. The entities tasked with understanding the aftermath of economic collapse and how to deal with it are the same ones leading the charge to get my guns. Hmmm.
I'll make a deal with you. When guns are used to commit homicide one tenth as often as people under 50 are killed by medical problems, we can discuss it.
Death due to misuse of guns is a very very small piece of the problems we are facing and there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that any form of disarmament will result in fewer deaths. None. Focus on the things that will make a difference and leave the guns alone. It's all politics anyway. I don't want to hear it anymore. Just stop!
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Heisman Winner [137857]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 63780
Joined: 10/22/00
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That should do it.
Oct 13, 2015, 9:54 AM
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I doubt we'll hear anymore discussions about guns, so thank you for this message.
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CU Guru [1581]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 2501
Joined: 4/16/09
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well then, glad to help!
Oct 13, 2015, 9:56 AM
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Rock Defender [53]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
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Re: just stop
Oct 13, 2015, 10:12 AM
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CAFE Standards
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Legend [18310]
TigerPulse: 79%
Posts: 24634
Joined: 11/3/03
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Don't stop thinking about tomorrow.
Oct 13, 2015, 10:51 AM
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I have no intention of stopping, The cowardly TDers are after me anyway. There is absolutely no evidence to show that disarmament will not help the terroristic acts on schools, churches and other areas.
Go all Tigers, support responsible gun control.
While I'm at it, I wonder of S. Orr S. will become a Rep. presidential candidate, he shoots off his mouth like the rest of them. It is dominating every other forum so why not here. here
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Oculus Spirit [78865]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 26422
Joined: 12/6/98
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politicians ruined that song
Oct 13, 2015, 11:01 AM
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but honestly it did not take much to ruin
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Legend [18310]
TigerPulse: 79%
Posts: 24634
Joined: 11/3/03
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Did they shoot it with 67 high-powered assault rifles?
Oct 13, 2015, 11:09 AM
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Go all Tigers, I'm so happy so many Reps. mock me for using this phrase, even on other forums.
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Oculus Spirit [78865]
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Joined: 12/6/98
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pretty sure that I did not mock you
Oct 13, 2015, 11:33 AM
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please re-read. Not every post is about you.
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Legend [18310]
TigerPulse: 79%
Posts: 24634
Joined: 11/3/03
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I wasn't referring to you, you are one of my minor critics,
Oct 13, 2015, 7:41 PM
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it must be your enormous ego that is making you think that I'd waste much time on you. If you are not sure of whether you did or did not, you better just keep out of the fray.
Go all Tigers, and I mean all of you, not just the egoist.
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Oculus Spirit [78865]
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Joined: 12/6/98
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Jesus
Oct 14, 2015, 10:05 AM
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you have problems
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Hall of Famer [24734]
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Joined: 7/31/10
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I'm beginning to wonder how many personalities....?***
Oct 14, 2015, 11:00 AM
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Rock Defender [53]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
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Re: just stop
Oct 13, 2015, 11:52 AM
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Dude if you don't want to listen to it, just get of the P&R board, this is exactly the sort of place to discuss these things.
Also, I'm not sure what problem you have with the statistics. It's important for people to make an educated choice and it's hard to do when groups like the NRA purposely confuse the numbers.
I'm also not sure why everyone thinks the suicide portion of the numbers don't matter... if those people didn't have a gun, it is far less likely that they would be dead today, lookup what Israel did to stop solider suicides (hint, they didn't let them take their guns home and suicides dropped 40%). If you simply don't care about people who commit suicide, well then that's just a topic for another time I guess.
I'm not suggesting that we implement more gun control laws that don't work, but there are laws that have worked such as required background checks.
It is simply important for people to know that the reality is, a gun makes you statistically less safe. So it's wise to consider that before making your personal decision, that is all.
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CU Guru [1581]
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Joined: 4/16/09
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You are wrong on many...
Oct 15, 2015, 3:51 PM
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levels. I don't mind listening to an argument based on real facts. My issue is with picking and choosing which ones to use and claiming the stats support your claim. Fact: Gun ownership increased since 1970 and the homicide rate dropped everywhere except in very densely populated inner cities.
You have no right to tell someone they cannot own a gun because you are worried they will kill themselves. It cannot be justified and if you allow the justification as it has been presented thus far, you cannot stop there. It is now the public responsibility for everything a person might do that is harmful to themselves. It's ridiculous. The root problems must be addressed. Why do these people want to kill themselves? Let's focus on that, shall we?
Please quote the statistic that shows guns make one less safe from others. Any statistic containing suicides it tainted. I would never consider suicide so in the interest of conserving the right to choose how to defend myself and my property, it is moot.
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Rock Defender [53]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
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Re: You are wrong on many...
Oct 15, 2015, 4:02 PM
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You are arguing with the wrong guy if you think I want to take away the right to protect yourself with a gun. I was just pointing out facts.
> Fact: Gun ownership increased since 1970 and the homicide rate dropped everywhere except in very densely populated inner cities.
You may be right, but it is also a fact that you're still more likely to be killed with your own gun, commit suicide, commit homicide than you are to protect yourself with it. There is no bias in that fact.
> Please quote the statistic that shows guns make one less safe from others.
Check it out for yourself, do the FBI statistics work for you?: http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable15.pdf
> Any statistic containing suicides it tainted.
Err.. how do the suicides taint it? If people with guns kill themselves with them at a higher rate than not having it, then they are valid statistics?
But let's say you're right and suicides don't matter, well you are still more likely to commit homicide than you are to defend yourself. Let me be crystal clear with you because you don't to be listening... I am not saying this means you should not be allowed to have a gun to defend yourself. I'm just pointing out the facts, if you have a problem with those that's fine, they are not mine.
> I would never consider suicide so in the interest of conserving the right to choose how to defend myself and my property, it is moot.
That's not how statistics work.. you are talking about ancedotal evidence. I believe you, you don't seem suicidal or anything like that, but you are just one person. You alone don't make up society so you can't base the entire argument on your own experience.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Joined: 8/10/13
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Re: You are wrong on many...
Oct 15, 2015, 4:08 PM
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Do you have any data that claims the vast majority of those that commits suicide with guns wouldn't commit suicide through other means?
And not data from Israel, data from here in the states.
I think many people overlook the suicide argument because many that commit suicide will do it even if a gun isn't available.
Kinda like people with rope in their home are more likely to kill their self with rope then someone that doesn't have rope on their home.
Or someone with drugs in their home are more likely to commit suicide with drugs then someone who doesn't have drugs in their home.
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Rock Defender [53]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
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Re: You are wrong on many...
Oct 15, 2015, 4:31 PM
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> Do you have any data that claims the vast majority of those that commits suicide with guns wouldn't commit suicide through other means?
> And not data from Israel, data from here in the states.
That's interesting, why doesn't the Israeli data count? It clearly shows removing one variable, the gun, makes a very significant difference.
Having a gun simply makes suicide easier, it's not a leap to
> I think many people overlook the suicide argument because many that commit suicide will do it even if a gun isn't available.
Ok, but let's say the suicide part doesn't matter. The statistics still show you are statistically less safe with a gun in your home.
> Kinda like people with rope in their home are more likely to kill their self with rope then someone that doesn't have rope on their home.
> Or someone with drugs in their home are more likely to commit suicide with drugs then someone who doesn't have drugs in their home.
I think if this were true then you would not have seen the drop in suicides as you did in the israeli data, they simply would have used another means (such as the car they drove home in). but that doesn't count I guess because it's not data from the US?
Look man, you seem to have a problem with me or what i'm saying. I'm just pointing out the data.
You can choose to own a firearm or not, that's up to you. I choose to own one because of who I'm around and what I feel my own capabilities are, I'm not trying to reduce your right to do so. I do however think we can do a better job of keeping them out of the wacko's hands.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: You are wrong on many...
Oct 15, 2015, 7:22 PM
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The simple fact is you can't accurately compare data of about 20 suicides in Israel to data of thousands of people in the states.
I assume you went to college, learning that should have been a basic course.
You keep bringing up suicides dropped by 40% in Israel, what was the number? And you think that is an accurate way to gauge what it may drop here in the states? ########
By the way, oh smartest one on the board...you keep quoting old data. Suicides went back UP in 2014 in Israel. Oops.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: You are wrong on many...
Oct 15, 2015, 7:32 PM
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7 Israeli soldiers killed themselves in 2013, that number INCREASED to 15 in 2014.
And somehow since it dropped from 28 people, that is an accurate description to thousands and thousands of people here in the states.
Like Hillary said in the debate the other night, "I love Denmark, but they have a population of 5 million." In other words, there is no comparison. I know Denmark isn't Israel, but I don't get the comparing a very small number to the US and claiming since it works with that small number, it'll also work here where the numbers are 1,000 times bigger.
And I also point that out to gun lovers when they like to compare small states or other small countries to the US. It doesn't make sense.
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Rock Defender [53]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
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Re: You are wrong on many...
Oct 15, 2015, 8:09 PM
[ in reply to Re: You are wrong on many... ] |
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What is your problem? Where was I being the "smartest one on the board"?
I thought I was being rather calm and direct.
If you look at the numbers there are something like 30 homicides to every 1 justifiable homicide.
I'm not sure what issue you have with that but you certainly seem to.
> By the way, oh smartest one on the board...you keep quoting old data. Suicides went back UP in 2014 in Israel. Oops.
If that's true, I'd be genuinely interested to see the data.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Joined: 8/10/13
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Re: You are wrong on many...
Oct 15, 2015, 8:27 PM
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I know what the numbers are. But you keep quoting data from Israel, data that is no where near comparable to the states.
It's not hard to have a 40% drop when you're talking 28 total people. It's not that big of a drop when numbers are that small.
And that is exactly why I asked for data from here versus Israel.
And yeah, you do come off as a know it all. Read thru some threads, even some of our far left tigers are calling you out. 
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Joined: 8/10/13
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Re: just stop
Oct 13, 2015, 7:43 PM
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Nothing wrong with debate but there comes a time "when it's beating a dead horse."
Eight threads on page 1 about guns.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12896
Joined: 8/10/13
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Re: just stop
Oct 13, 2015, 7:49 PM
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^^^ If I didn't say that right, oh well. Most know what I mean.
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Starter [351]
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Reagan made it VERY hard to commit people to mental
Oct 15, 2015, 8:06 PM
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institutions. Just to save money he released a lot of mental patients from Hospitals. This is where many of our homeless come from. A lot of these nutcases have access to guns
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Orange Blooded [2429]
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Re: Reagan made it VERY hard to commit people to mental
Oct 15, 2015, 8:16 PM
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#### we've stopped blaming Bush and now gone back to Reagan. smh.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Joined: 8/10/13
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Re: Reagan made it VERY hard to commit people to mental
Oct 15, 2015, 8:31 PM
[ in reply to Reagan made it VERY hard to commit people to mental ] |
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Reagan released them? Although most mass murderers are young?
Reagan has been out of office nearly 28 years. #### he is working some magic there 
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