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Orange Blooded [3422]
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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and what do you believe this gentleman is doing now?***
Jul 19, 2015, 12:27 PM
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Orange Blooded [3422]
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Re: and what do you believe this gentleman is doing now?***
Jul 19, 2015, 12:41 PM
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Not sure. It's about 1pm on a Sunday, so I assume nothing too wild.
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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there's other interpretations of the now, thank goodness.***
Jul 19, 2015, 12:45 PM
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110%er [6515]
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I know, why believe anybody, right?
Jul 19, 2015, 1:09 PM
[ in reply to and what do you believe this gentleman is doing now?*** ] |
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The last paragraph nails it- it saying it is about state rights (nonsense) margainilizes African Americans and makes everyone else look stupid. Who knows what the truth is right?
People are entrenched in ignorance across our great country. Our country has many races now, as opposed to back then, and those that fail to see the value in (besides morally) total equality, WILL become the minority (are?). Rewriting history nullifies a lot of progress made in the right direction.
But hey, believe whatever will make you sleep better at night.
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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ignorance? you seem to be leading the pack...
Jul 19, 2015, 1:14 PM
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sleep well.
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110%er [6515]
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Think so huh? Misinformation believed everywhere
Jul 19, 2015, 2:02 PM
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We are fed lies from all directions and the truth is distorted, mostly by people who would prefer to protect their own interests over moving forward and evolving the most diverse society on the planet. Think about it, the South lost and their overall stance WAS to protect slavery, but oh no, they are free; uh, we meant to secede because of THIS all along!
Please!
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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what in the good lord's name are you running on about now?
Jul 19, 2015, 2:54 PM
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the entire point of my question was to question yet another rehashing. i question everything and recommend everyone do the same.
i have zero issue with what south carolina's declaration of causes stated. it was a dear john letter of grievances[slavery obviously prominent] to the federal union. more importantly, it was a declaration of sovereignty, the reclamation of both the rights[state's rights] & the power that had been freely granted years before. it was not a declaration of war.
the first shot was not fired until 5 months later; other states yet to leave the fed joined shortly after.
the united states was a new nation still in its infancy and afraid of the power wrought by an overzealous central authority. lee's father was light-horse harry lee the only non-general awarded the Gold Medal and hero of the Revolution. those times were twice as close to the birth of a nation, than the feelings & sentiments some have today for a long dead institution.
i can separate certain feelings from those things & would implore others to learn to do the same.
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110%er [6515]
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I hear you, and you make good points
Jul 19, 2015, 3:28 PM
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I question everything as well, and I've seen most of those facts as well. But if you consider any radical change to our society, government, etc., no entire population is completely for it. If Southerners did want states' rights above federal, which is what the Civil War is supposedly about, it was to retain the "liberty" (ironic) to own and trade slaves and not follow what the North had outlawed. It took awhile to totally abolish it up North, until the 13th Amendment made it Federal, but was banned by all states in 1804.
I know one thing is for sure, 48 days seems like forever!
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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i'm glad, we all should, far too many it seems are along for
Jul 19, 2015, 4:33 PM
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the ride, any ride and it seems to get worse with the prominence of social media. my goodness, it's seen here far too often concerning much, much less important things such as what a 17 year old might mean from several "ominous" words on twitter. it's crazy and pandemic.
as far as the legality of slavery, it was legal and perhaps check the 1804 date unless i misunderstood you, which i don't want to do. there were some northern states that freed the children of slaves, but the parents were "condemned" to slavery for the entirety of their mortal lives. wasn't that rich. 
you know what, i can't agree with you more about those 48 days.
go tigers.
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All-In [28802]
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Rule #1 of history. Never trust a Sociologist to write it.***
Jul 19, 2015, 12:57 PM
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All-TigerNet [11934]
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^^^ This ... and especially one from Vermont***
Jul 19, 2015, 2:51 PM
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Orange Blooded [3422]
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Re: ^^^ This ... and especially one from Vermont***
Jul 19, 2015, 2:55 PM
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How does being from Vermont reduce the validity of what he said?
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Orange Blooded [2663]
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Rule #1: Stupid people are stupid for a reason.
Jul 19, 2015, 3:50 PM
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The people you are arguing with are what we call "stupid" in academic circles. Most of them are now arguing with you without actually having read the article you linked to. If stupid people didn't behave stupidly, they wouldn't be stupid.
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All-TigerNet [11934]
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Vermont/validity
Jul 19, 2015, 10:25 PM
[ in reply to Re: ^^^ This ... and especially one from Vermont*** ] |
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Well, for one thing, people from that part of the country (you're from Massachusetts I see) seem more than willing to perpetuate the myth that while the people of the South were undeniably racist, the people of the North generally were not.
They want to have us believe that the vast majority of the population of the North were ardent Abolitionists, when in fact nothing could be much further from the truth.
This New England sociologist, like so many others, takes pride in pointing out the obvious ... that the Southern cause was principally the perpetuation of slavery. Duh!! No reasonable individual South or North denies the validity of this stance.
But, not satisfied with that accurate portrayal of the South, they want us to also believe that the Northern motivation at the time was a widespread desire to see the abolition of slavery.
That notion is, and always will be pure BS.
Before, and well into the war, abolition of slavery was an extremely unpopular cause throughout the country. It's an uncomfortable fact, but make an effort to study exactly what the rank & file in Boston did to rare individuals like William Lloyd Garrison and others who tried to create enthusiasm for abolition.
This is another incontrovertible fact: As a result of political expediency and little else, the focus of the conflict was shifted away from simply restoring and preserving the Union, to a crusade to free the slaves. Not because there was any great sentiment on the part of the Northern population to see the black man raised up, but simply because freeing the slaves denied the Confederacy of an important resource.
And this guy like many others, also seems not to be able to comprehend the intense divided loyalties that existed in the Border States ... they were called "Border States" for a reason and he curiously ignores still another important fact: that Lincoln did NOT emancipate the slaves in the Border States ...
As a Southerner by birth, heritage, and choice, I have come to accept that authors such as this fellow will use the broadest possible brush to paint the South in the most unflattering way possible. It's okay. Have at it. We probably deserve it.
But, at the same time what makes me so angry over these types of biased op-ed articles is that in their rush to stamp out any flickering ember of pride that Southerners might cling to over their heritage, the writers gloss over the virulent racist attitudes that were common throughout the nation as a whole in the days before, during and after the Civil War.
This is the sort of unapologetic and high-handed revisionist agenda, that most rankles those of us in the South who are and have been more than ready to move forward.
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Orange Blooded [3422]
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All-TigerNet [11934]
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His facts were cherry picked and skewed to make his point.***
Jul 19, 2015, 10:30 PM
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Legend [15492]
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Theft by Taxes — Lincoln assured Confederate states
Jul 19, 2015, 3:38 PM
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If they rejoined the Union the slaves would be as safe as under Washington.
So if it was about slavery they would have rejoined the Union
It was about Federal Government stealing the wealth. Taxes & Tariffs
Gen. Lee freed his slaves before the War & Gen. Grant continued owning slaves after the war.
Lincoln proposed an amendment making slavery a Constitutional Right.
More White slaves than Black slaves. White slaves sold for 1/10th the price of Black slaves.
Also more White slaves in Africa than Black slaves in America
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Orange Blooded [3422]
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Legend [15492]
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Re: Confederate Revisionist History
Jul 19, 2015, 3:52 PM
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Actually that's a very good article. It illuminates much of the PC (yes, pc of the time) I was taught in SC public schools about how noble the confederate cause was and how 'separate was equal' and how 'the war wasn't about slavery' and all the other white dominant rhetoric we were fed. While at the end of every school year they would take up all the worn and dilapidated text books we could no longer use....and ship them over to the black schools for them to use. (Hampton County Elem School 1961-64 true story)
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Orange Blooded [3422]
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Re: Confederate Revisionist History
Jul 19, 2015, 3:56 PM
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Wow, that's very interesting to hear! I was born & raised in Massachusetts so I don't remember having books/teachers which taught that way, but it's very interesting to see how different regions/years gave different versions of history.
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Orange Blooded [4504]
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Do you believe EVERYTHING you read on the internet. So
Jul 19, 2015, 4:07 PM
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now you will repeat it as truth?
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Orange Blooded [3422]
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Re: Do you believe EVERYTHING you read on the internet. So
Jul 19, 2015, 4:34 PM
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Care to elaborate? Are you saying that Felix's claims are incorrect?
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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i like felix, but if he uses "we" again as if he could
Jul 19, 2015, 5:20 PM
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possibly speak for me, "we" will have issues.
i don't know what lies HE was fed, i certainly was not a target of those and i grew up in the south as well.
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Legend [15492]
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Re: i like felix, but if he uses "we" again as if he could
Jul 19, 2015, 5:24 PM
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"We" in so far as the students of Hampton County Elem. school. Better? Where in the South were you raised? 
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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you've used "we" before in speaking of the south in general.***
Jul 19, 2015, 5:25 PM
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born in low country, grew up in florida & virginia where i attended THE University of Virginia, Washington & Lee.
also lived in chitown, philly twice, nyc/nj twice & parts in between.
i'm a renaissance man.
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Legend [15492]
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Re: you've used "we" before in speaking of the south in general.***
Jul 19, 2015, 5:43 PM
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ok, ok...I might, maybe, sorta almost get carried away sometimes...maybe. It comes with age. I was born and raised in SC up until later high school and we moved to NC. I remember segregated restaurants, movie theaters, all white school, bathrooms labeled men, women and colored as well as the worst racial epithets imaginable. Not sure about Fla. or Va. but in SC these were the norm. I remember the fight against integration (and the attending confederate battle flags), the "hell no we'll never forget" confederate tags and bumper stickers, the revulsion at the the Supreme courts' Loving v Va. decision. Etc, etc..
All of this while being taught in school, church and socially that this was the norm. That whites were superior to blacks and that's the way God intended it. If I use the term 'we' over-broadly it is only in so far as the common experience of those in my family and community and frankly, many on this board who continue to buy into that old propaganda.
Now, having said all of that, Fla. has too many New Yorkers in it to be considered the south and Virginia....way to close to the north. No wonder your thinking is out of step with those of us enlightened sons of the south...
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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haha, might, maybe? my ex-wife said those things when
Jul 19, 2015, 5:54 PM
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i'd ask her about a credit card bill. we were far from short on cash and certainly didn't need the points...
you have your ideas, i have mine and can promise you the new propaganda is as distasteful to me as it appears the old is to you.
the confederate flag is not a symbol of racism to me; i'm smarter than that, but i do understand a bunch of simpletons only know "what they're told".
we both know those flags designated troops/people and their story, just like the tiger paw today.
"we" have an emotional problem in the united states that i'd like to see intelligent people get over soon, because the real issues in the country don't have a GAWDD@MN thing to do with a flag or whether anyone believes some issues that led to that war were marginal.
not a ####### thing was marginal that led to death of 650-850k people as a direct result of that war.
see, "we" both can might, maybe, sorta get carried away at times.
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Legend [15492]
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Re: haha, might, maybe? my ex-wife said those things when
Jul 19, 2015, 6:22 PM
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ex wife? I'm stunned, the woman was clearly a fool.
The trick, in my singular view, is determining what is propaganda and what is not. It is my experience that even the most intelligent people agree with 'propaganda' if it comes in a form that coincides with their values. What is propaganda to me may be the god's honest truth to you.
In so far as the flag being considered racist, it depends on context. Clearly a flag at the grave of Robert E. Lee is an historic accoutrement, not racist. The same flag at the KKK rally in SC yesterday...is clearly racist. Often, one see's what one wants to see....however 'too smart' he see's himself to be. We are all products of our environments and we all retain, to a greater or lesser degree, some of the values acquired from those environments. It is all a part of the human condition.
And this may be where 'we' may have a real problem. I agree with your assessment of today's propaganda. But I believe, outside of our government, Fox News and it's ilk are a primary contributor. What say you my learned friend?
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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yes, she is and now working on her 3rd marriage...
Jul 19, 2015, 6:39 PM
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does that help?
i don't see us saying much of anything different.
the flag has been bastardized, forgive me for not allowing simpletons to change my view of it. i certainly understand that it's happened and didn't deny so in anyway, but that doesn't change me knowing the difference. it has no effect on the reality of what was that flag's inception or intent...people bastardized it, not the flag's doing.
i don't have a lot of tolerance for ignorance and that's what propaganda prays on, the ignorant and their emotions.
me, i'm a cold hard calculating clinical viewer of reality not encumbered by that stupidity.
any questions my learned friend?
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Legend [15492]
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Re: yes, she is and now working on her 3rd marriage...
Jul 19, 2015, 6:50 PM
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Only one....did they make fun of your Spock ears in high school?
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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not if they knew what was good for them...
Jul 19, 2015, 6:53 PM
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which they did.
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Legend [15492]
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Re: not if they knew what was good for them...
Jul 19, 2015, 6:54 PM
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I just kill me...
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Legend [15492]
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Re: not if they knew what was good for them...
Jul 19, 2015, 6:57 PM
[ in reply to not if they knew what was good for them... ] |
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I hope we can meet at a game this year maybe. Your a brilliant man, would love to meet you.
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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if i had a vote, which i don't, i'd say davidhood brings the
Jul 19, 2015, 7:02 PM
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tigernet credit card then expenses lunch for a large, but intimate group of us...crump is an understanding person.
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Walk-On [137]
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He is right but he is wrong
Jul 19, 2015, 4:31 PM
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-and mind-set to boot, and not about to change. I do not condone the ideas of slavery, but to say it was all about that is small indeed. Certainly states' rights had been a major issue since the formation of the United States. John C. Calhoun (also a slave owner) spent almost his entire career arguing the idea of states' rights. There were other economic, trade & tariff issues along with the slavery issue. The loss of cheap labor(slavery)was,of course, a formidable concern, but all these things together affected the southern reaction. I am neither naive enough to dismiss slavery as the cause, but neither am I disposed to dismiss the other attendant factors. But to pretend states' rights was not a very attendant concern is most disingenuous of the writer. Slavery was wrong wrong wrong and we all know that. But we cannot change history and neither should the writer try. At least one of my great great great grandfathers owned two slaves but I do not vilify him or disown him because of it; it was just a very wrong happenstance that cannot be changed. That is why we call it 'history'.
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Legend [15492]
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Re: He is right but he is wrong
Jul 19, 2015, 5:13 PM
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> -and mind-set to boot, and not about to change. I do
> not condone the ideas of slavery, but to say it was
> all about that is small indeed. Certainly states'
> rights had been a major issue since the formation of
> the United States. John C. Calhoun (also a slave
> owner) spent almost his entire career arguing the
> idea of states' rights. There were other economic,
> trade & tariff issues along with the slavery issue.
> The loss of cheap labor(slavery)was,of course, a
> formidable concern, but all these things together
> affected the southern reaction. I am neither naive
> enough to dismiss slavery as the cause, but neither
> am I disposed to dismiss the other attendant factors.
> But to pretend states' rights was not a very
> attendant concern is most disingenuous of the writer.
> Slavery was wrong wrong wrong and we all know that.
> But we cannot change history and neither should the
> writer try. At least one of my great great great
> grandfathers owned two slaves but I do not vilify him
> or disown him because of it; it was just a very wrong
> happenstance that cannot be changed. That is why we
> call it 'history'.
There were other marginal issues, but the ability to keep slavery as an institution was THE states right they were fighting for. You mentioned "The loss of cheap labor(slavery)was,of course, a formidable concern...". The loss of slavery would have absolutely devastated the southern economy. It is of no small import, nor an additional concern. The SC statement of secession mentions slaves or slavery 26 times.
The idea that the Civil War was about states rights is only a half truth. What the southern revisionists want everyone to believe is that states rights itself was a central issue, one that Calhoun foisted and argued for. What the southern revisionist DONT want you understand is that the retention of slavery was the primary state right in question.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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You are correct but you leave out a big chunk
Jul 19, 2015, 8:14 PM
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of the economics. The south lost cheap labor, it wasn't free. I'm not trying to justify slavery by any means but a slave cost more than most farms. Even a backwoods moron knows you change the oil and service a Benz more than a VW. That means adequate housing, food and clothing, not elaborate but adequate. I've read the average slave owner had 1.3 slaves. That means nobody sat on the porch and sipped mint julep on most farms. Men worked beside their slave and probably worked even harder. The average slave wasn't beaten and his wife raped, how you gonna rape a man's wife when all it takes is a match to destroy your house and barn? Sorry for the tangent.
Nobody ever mentions the positive cheap labor which migrated to the north after the war. Thousand of blacks worked for less than they had when they were slaves. If they didn't make enough to feed their families, tough chit. The poor whites suffered too but the northern rich kept getting richer.
Nothing in the history books in public schools is accurate for the lack of important northern economic factors.
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Freshman [7]
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Re: Confederate Revisionist History
Jul 19, 2015, 6:18 PM
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Would be interesting to see what the story is in another 150 years.Maybe there never was a Civil War.
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Heisman Winner [134329]
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Re: Confederate Revisionist History
Jul 20, 2015, 8:04 AM
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In my opinion, the Civil War didn't become about slavery until the Emancipation Proclamation was issued. The War was primary about States Rights. Back then, States were more important to the people than the United States.
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110%er [5093]
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Re: Confederate Revisionist History
Jul 20, 2015, 2:37 PM
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Well your opinion is wrong.
What don't you understand about that?
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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Truedat.
Jul 20, 2015, 3:12 PM
[ in reply to Re: Confederate Revisionist History ] |
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We'd just come out from beneath the oppression of the Crown. Now we're being ruled by a class of people just as self centered.
Thanks yankees, thanks for usurping rights assured by the founders in the constitution.
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