Topic: Front Page Story: Venables talks negatives and draftable freaks
Replies: 37   Last Post: Nov 20, 2013 7:16 PM by: Razzmatazz
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Front Page Story: Venables talks negatives and draftable freaks

Posted: Nov 19, 2013 9:24 PM

Venables talks negatives and draftable freaks

Clemson defensive coordinator Brent Venables told the media Tuesday that he has spent a lot of time looking at the negatives in last Thursday's win over Georgia Tech. He also talked about what it takes for a junior to leave for the NFL draft. His answer? You better be a freak, like Adrian Peterson or Sammy Watkins. Full Story »

I like Venables' outlook on coaching. Reward good play

Posted: Nov 19, 2013 10:08 PM

and criticize where needed in constant persuit of perfection. It will be interesting to see how much improvement we see at the end of the month. And exciting to see what happens next year with some of the new talent coming on board like Pagano and Ogundeko.

It's the seconday I'm excited about

Posted: Nov 19, 2013 10:15 PM

Alexander, baker, Edmond coming off a RS with Breeland, Peters, and Jenkins at CB.

We will be 4 deep at safety with more experience everywhere. I think we could have a domiante D next year as long as Lawson, Crawford, Barnes and Ebo can get after the Qb consistently

Don't forget Kearse. He may be the biggest star of all

Posted: Nov 19, 2013 10:23 PM

the secondary soon.

Jenkins still has a lot to prove in my book. Otherwise I agree we have tons of reasons to be optimistic both at the line and down the field.

I don't think Kearse is a safety for long

Posted: Nov 20, 2013 9:52 AM

he might be too big for that.

Height? It would be nice to have at least one tall guy

Posted: Nov 20, 2013 10:54 AM

to match up against some tall receivers when needed. 6-4 maybe be pushing it, but he isn't that bulky. And he is nimble too.

I love BIG safeties. Don't ruin him by moving him if you...

Posted: Nov 20, 2013 11:35 AM

don't have to. We need a rangy head hunter back there.


He's the same size his uncle Jevon was as a freshman

Posted: Nov 20, 2013 1:17 PM

if his genes are similar we may not be able to keep him from adding weight.

Re: Don't forget Kearse. He may be the biggest star of all

Posted: Nov 20, 2013 10:01 AM

I see Kearse moving to the Christian/Wiggins LB/Nickle spot and being an every down / every opponent starter.

Re: It's the seconday I'm excited about

Posted: Nov 20, 2013 9:50 AM

And don't forget about Tankersley, moving back to his normal position at corner as well. Great size (biggest corner we have) and the fastest on the defense, moved to safety because of his size but I hope he stays at corner. Listening to some of the players Breeland and him are probably the best in man-to-man coverage.

Unfortunately, Martavis is a freak

Posted: Nov 19, 2013 10:20 PM

... but could still use 2 yrs of college fball to develop. Theory busted.

I'd put it differently. Bryant can prove himself to BE

Posted: Nov 19, 2013 10:25 PM

a freak as he has shown some things a few times this year. But he has no where near the resume of Sammy in the 'freak' category yet.

He's probably a better athlete than Sammy

Posted: Nov 20, 2013 9:53 AM

just not as polished

Re: I'd put it differently. Bryant can prove himself to BE

Posted: Nov 20, 2013 10:04 AM

A freak does not need a resume... Bryant will blow them away at the combine.... his measurables are amazing... but I do nto see him as a 1st rounder... but someone will take him in the second.
What he is missing is the mental part of the game that Sammy had as a freshman.

Re: Unfortunately, Martavis is a freak

Posted: Nov 20, 2013 12:01 AM

Theory Busted? Would you like to back that up with something?

Martavis has the POTENTIAL to be a freak...but he isn't yet, and needs to stay.

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Morris said it best when he said....

Posted: Nov 20, 2013 8:04 AM

"Bryant is just beginning to realize what he is capable of doing."

I completely agree with that assessment.

I don't think there is any question he is going to be a great one at some point, but he hasn't achieved that status just yet and another year playing collegiately could be a tremendous benefit to him.

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Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together.

Re: Morris said it best when he said....

Posted: Nov 20, 2013 10:09 AM

I could see Nuks mentoring of Sammy in Sammy's game this year... he is much better than he was as a freshman... look at Sammy with a corner in close coverage like the Corner that was on him tight against GaT, when the ball got to Sammy that was a yard separation.... people in the bar said he pushed off....but there was no extended arm from sammy on the corner. Sammy and Nuk put a shoulder or part of their body against the corner and at the last moment gain a step..... against GaT that resulted in a walk into the end zone.
Sammy has a lot of Nuks skills with Bryant speed... he is a top 10 pick....

There was no push-off and the replay clearly showed it.***

Posted: Nov 20, 2013 10:12 AM

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Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together.

Re: There was no push-off and the replay clearly showed it.***

Posted: Nov 20, 2013 10:27 AM

correct but at game speed half the people in the bar I was in thought Sammy had pushed off... Nuk was able to do the same thing... I do not know how they do it.... but I expect it is something Nuk learned to do playing Basketball... I did not see it in Sammys game last year or as a freshman... he has it now... I hope he teaches it to those that are starting next year....

Re: Unfortunately, Martavis is a freak

Posted: Nov 20, 2013 11:00 AM

Martavis has the physical tools, but needs to prove himself as consistently great. IMHO, it would be a big mistake for him to go out after this year. One really good game against an average team like GT doesn't really prove a lot.

Re: Unfortunately, Martavis is a freak

Posted: Nov 20, 2013 11:04 AM

I agree he has all the tools but needs one more year. I've yet to see him truly use his height and go up and get the ball at its high point if he starts doing that he would be unstoppable no doubt.

McDaniels shoulda left when he was hot. Nuk make right call.

Posted: Nov 20, 2013 3:35 AM

D-Mac would likely have been a 2nd or 3rd rounder if he came out as a junior, rather than being a free-agent. And Dabo was completely wrong when he told Nuk that Nuk would be better off coming back. It's not as cut and dry as Venables makes it sound and the coaches have a conflict of interest in seeing the players return. There was an in-depth study done a few yeas ago showing that on average (because NFL pensions are based on years in the league) juniors will do better financially in the long run if they come out as at least a 2nd round draft pick, rather than returning for their senior year.

Wonder if CJ Spiller might disagree...***

Posted: Nov 20, 2013 3:55 AM

Re: Wonder if CJ Spiller might disagree...***

Posted: Nov 20, 2013 10:29 AM

Ellington improved a lot his Senior year... I think a late round pick can move up by staying another year and developing skill they will need in the NFL.

Would Spiller disagree that McDaniels blew it by returning?

Posted: Nov 20, 2013 1:39 PM

Can you tell me what number pick Spiller would have been if he hadn't come back and how much more or less money he'd have made over the course of his career if he had played in the NFL for one more year by leaving early or by renegotiating his contract one year earlier?

It seems like Spiller may have been better off coming back but maybe not. It's hard to know. You can cherry-pick examples where players did better by coming back and examples where (Barkley & Locker) where they blew many millions of dollars by coming back.

Pension funds? Really... NFL Retirees get $470/mo for every

Posted: Nov 20, 2013 6:55 AM

year they play in the nfl... with those payments beginning when they reach age 55.

Late 2nd round pick gets roughly an $850,000 signing bonus.

Late 1st round pick gets $3,300,000.

Now the smart thing to do would be to invest 30% that signing bonus.

If so, here's how the late 2nd rounder's retirement income at age 55 would compare to a 1st rounder's.

Assuming a 3% average return from ages 22-55 on a deferred annuity. Fees and expenses: 1%. Withdrawal period: 25 years (until age 70)

1st rounder's annual income beginning at age 55: $10,822,515

2nd rounder's annual income at age 55: $27,922

Players who blow all of their $$ and rely on onlytheir PENSIONS: $5,640 x number of years in the NFL (which, btw, the above 2 examples will still get either way, in addition to their annuity funds)

Don't tell me Martavis Bryant and some of the other Juniors aren't better off staying and proving to NFL scouts that they can be the man on a high profile team that's flooded with talent.

Re: Pension funds? Really... NFL Retirees get $470/mo for every

Posted: Nov 20, 2013 7:00 AM

Make that $470 x NFL years played. Was thinking it had to be monthly because of how small of a number it was in comparison to the others, and so I incorrectly multiplied it by 12 to get to %5,640.

Re: Pension funds? Really... NFL Retirees get $470/mo for every

Posted: Nov 20, 2013 7:01 AM

scratch last post. %5,640 actually is the correct annual amount.

That's assuming they'll improve their draft stock

Posted: Nov 20, 2013 9:59 AM

Deandre McDaniel, James Davis, and plenty of others would've gone higher as Juniors than they did as Seniors.

It's also assuming that these players are in a situation in which they and their dependents can afford to go another year without a paycheck.

Not just pension. Also risk & earlier renegotiation window.

Posted: Nov 20, 2013 1:20 PM

If you can guarantee that I guy will improve his draft stock and make millions of dollars more, then of course that would be financially better. But you can't.

Sure, you can cherry-pick cases where guys do better coming back or not coming out. But Matt Barkley & Jake Locker are recent examples of guys who blew many millions by not leaving early. Plenty of guys don't improve their draft stock and some decrease their draft stock by returning.

The study that I read did a comprehensive evaluation of players over many years, and ON AVERAGE, they determined that players were better off coming out if they could go in the 2nd round or better. They also factored in the ability to renegotiate contracts one year earlier for the average 2nd-round or better junior, and average career length for those players. It wasn't a simple hypothetical ROI calculation of a cherry-picked best case, like you created.

Would McDaniel s have been better off leaving early?

Posted: Nov 20, 2013 6:05 AM

You don't think his arrest (when he was only a role player on clemson's D) led to teans passing on hom bc of character issues? You think scouts only look at a player's INT count, and not take into consideration the fact that QBs were throwing the ball his way because they thought he was the second best safety on the field that year? Of course his INTs were going to drop off in his senior year, teams were reluctant to throw his way because he was a good centerfielder. Doesn't mean he was necessarily above average at understanding and reading offensive schemes and taking the right angles on ball carriers. He was out of place more times than not and cost us a number of big plays that, when chancellor was gone, exposed those weaknesses that NFL scouts were already aware of, even moreso. Had nothing to do with his not snagging 50 picks his senior year like uninformed fans thought he'd likely do after his junior year showing.

McDaniel forgot how to tackle his Sr year

Posted: Nov 20, 2013 9:11 AM

He just went for the ESPN hit like he had on Ponder. He could have played that year without arms since he rarely wrapped up.

He would've been drafted

Posted: Nov 20, 2013 10:01 AM

not in the first 2 rounds, but somebody would've gambled on him.

He was projected as 2nd round as a jr. Undrafted as a senior

Posted: Nov 20, 2013 1:33 PM

Whatever the reasons and whatever his true "value" is, the bottom line is that, in hindsight, he would have been far better off coming out as a junior because he WOULD have been drafted and made a lot more money-- even though I'm not sure that he would have had much of an NFL career either way.

Link? McDaniel's was never projected higher than 3rd round

Posted: Nov 20, 2013 3:44 PM

And since he decided to come back for his senior season, he was able to delay the combine (where he posted lowsy numbers). Had he attended the combine, that 3rd round projection would've dropped to 5th or 6th, and still may've went undrafted because of character issues.

Bryant will beast the combine either way, so his projection won't be as much of a shot in the dark. He'll be on the field all season long, with accurate QBs throwing him the ball, and teams won't be able to double cover him because of all the weapons we'll have. Not to mention a better stable of backs (and running game) which will leave the passing game even more wide open.

Kid has some serious learning left to do as well. Needs to read coverages better, needs to improve on breaking in and out of his cuts and sharper his route running abilities and techniques coming off the ball in press man coverage. He can also work on being a leader and coming through in clutch situations, and all the while prove he can succeed in the classroom, and stay out of trouble outside of it.

That should guarantee him a few extra million up front and 10s of millions down the line. There are far to many question marks for scouts/coaches/GMs for him to go any higher than the 3rd round this year.

These articles say he was 2nd-ish as jr. Beats free agency.

Posted: Nov 20, 2013 7:16 PM

It's always hard to find projections for juniors but it was pretty widely accepted that McDaniel would have been a 2nd or maybe 3rd rounder if he had come out after his stellar junior year. Maybe his combine results would have dropped him to the 4th or 5th rounds, but not likely down to free agency like what happened to him after his mediocre senior year.

If you have any links showing that he wouldn't have been higher than 3rd round, please share them.

2nd round:http://www.thestate.com/2010/01/06/1097103/mcdaniel-to-return-for-senior.html


3rd round:

Seems like Bryant should stay and work to become a 1st rounder since he's barely shown his potential.

Love BV's attitude

Posted: Nov 20, 2013 10:52 AM

tell it like it is,perfection is the standard the entire game.

Re: Love BV's attitude

Posted: Nov 20, 2013 2:46 PM

Agreed! Taking nothing away from Dabo and Morris (both have been exceptional), but Brent Venables has worked miracles this year.

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