Replies: 54   Last Post: May 30, 2014 2:37 PM by: Completely Solid Orange®
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Posted: May 29, 2014 7:46 AM

When the flag controversy arose, a close friend who was the Executive Editor of "The State," called and asked me to write an OpEd piece about it, which I did.

In the column I stated that today most of us have close friends, neighbors, business associates, fellow members of clubs, organizations and churches of varying races, and we would be loath to insults.

Further, that most of us would find ourselves in disagreement with ancestors over a variety of issues. Simply, while remembering our past, I believed we should simply place the flag in a proper venue such as the Confederate Museum.

My own immediate ancestors were plantation owners and slaveholders in Virginia. A goodly number fought on the side of the Confederacy, some being killed in action. While I respect their rights to their views of the times, that doesn't mean I would agree with those views. Likewise, a hundred years from now, I doubt my descendants will agree with some of my views.

Fast forward to the actions of the NCAA and ACC. When enacted, I believed they did so against our state, simply because they knew they would get by with it. At the time I recall telling friends, "Forget the ACC....You won't see the NCAA going after the states of Georgia or Alabama or Mississippi." That's because our role in that war has made this state the nation's whipping child since its end.

And that has affected every resident of South Carolina, regardless of color. My opinion is that the flag issue is dead for the time being; even our black members of the General Assembly have admitted to such. I don't agree with the placement of the flag at its present location, but I can't change it, although I tried.

It's time for this matter with the NCAA and ACC to be resolved. It's time for our Governor to force the matter via legal action, if necessary, and for Clemson to be solidly supportive of those actions.

In doing so, we don't have to condemn or castigate the NAACP. Rather I believe the NCAA and ACC actions were/are patently unfair to our state, selective, demeaning and debasing and outright prejudicial. And they should be called to task on the matter.

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I completely agree....

Posted: May 29, 2014 8:06 AM

We should not blame the NAACP for this.

The leaders of the ACC and NCAA are to blame.

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Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together.

Re: I completely agree....

Posted: May 29, 2014 8:14 AM


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Posted: May 29, 2014 9:15 AM

Re: plagiarism?***

Posted: May 29, 2014 12:21 PM

Yeah, but I didn't offer an apology for something that I had nothing to do with.

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The NCAA doesn't follow the boycott..

Posted: May 29, 2014 8:19 AM

Clemson and SCU have been getting regionals all throughout the boycott. The boycott doesn't affect anything the ACC does. The ACC is not going to ever have any tournaments played in South Carolina. They never and never will.


Tigerking. ACC baseball tourney was in Greenville, SC

Posted: May 29, 2014 8:21 AM

For 9 years.

Tournament sites awarded based on merit....

Posted: May 29, 2014 8:25 AM

like Regional, Super Regionals or NIT Tournament games, are not included. The NCAA and the ACC have both specifically said the reason South Carolina is no longer considered for Tournament sites is because of the NAACP boycott.

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Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together.

The Big South basketball tournament was in Myrtle Beach this

Posted: May 29, 2014 10:39 AM

year. Does the boycott not apply to the smaller conferences? Are they specifically going after the big conferences?

The SoCon has also held its baseball tournament....

Posted: May 29, 2014 11:05 AM

in Greenville serveral times.

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Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together.

Re: The NCAA doesn't follow the boycott..

Posted: May 30, 2014 2:29 PM

Yes, they do. Perfect example, USC's Women's basketball team was a #1 seed and should have hosted. Due to boycott, they were sent to California.

SoCon Baseball tourn, USuC hosting regionals

Posted: May 30, 2014 2:34 PM

Coastal hosted regional.


Fiat Justitia et Pereat Mundus

NOT tiger football......***

Posted: May 29, 2014 8:20 AM

It's so close to downtime.

Posted: May 29, 2014 8:38 AM

What's the issue?

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NOT a donor ^^^***

Posted: May 29, 2014 8:57 AM

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There's something in these hills.


Posted: May 29, 2014 8:36 AM

Somehow society has come to believe that history would have played out differently had we lived in the days of slavery.

Somehow society has come to believe that had our forefathers lived in today's world they would still desire to own slaves.

As individuals Americans are some of the brightest thinkers on the planet. Collectively we are idiots inbred with morons.

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^^^Admits he's an inbred moron***

Posted: May 29, 2014 8:49 AM

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"IDIOT POSTER OF THE MONTH SO FAR...GWP-- You have won IPM Award for your failure to completely comprehend a clear post & then choose to attack someone who points out your ignorance. While you are not yet in the same No Class Catagory as deRoberts, ClemTiger117 & Tigerdug23, you are getting closer to the Sewer Dwellers." - coachmac

and it would explain

Posted: May 29, 2014 8:54 AM

what took him so long.

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I have to work for a few weeks and...

Posted: May 29, 2014 1:29 PM

return to this abuse?

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miss us?

Posted: May 29, 2014 2:19 PM

of course you did.


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In a way I did.

Posted: May 30, 2014 9:34 AM

I lurked around for a while when I could free my hands. You know my sons borrowed all my money to open a cell phone sales and repair store and said they were going to sell no contract phone services.

Turns out they opened a #### house without any hoars I'm running it by hand until we can enough money to hire some.

I'm ambidextrous you know.

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Re: ^^^Admits he's an inbred moron***

Posted: May 29, 2014 12:22 PM

It's not as if everyone doesn't know it already, you know, the birds of a feather thing?

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and proved it.....***

Posted: May 29, 2014 9:17 AM

Re: and proved it.....***

Posted: May 29, 2014 12:24 PM

WTPH you sayin?

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Posted: May 29, 2014 8:39 AM

As long as Swoffie is ACC Commissioner we will see no push to move anything to SC. It is all about NC to him. He is tickled he doesn't need another excuse to keep it in his team's back yard.

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he doesn't have a vote.***

Posted: May 29, 2014 8:41 AM

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Posted: May 29, 2014 8:43 AM

to obed piece?

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Cat on a tin roof, dogs in a pile,
Nothin' left to do but smile, smile, smile!!!!

What my problem is and from what I understand and I may be

Posted: May 29, 2014 8:49 AM

Wrong is that the NAACP came to a compromise with the state to move the flag from a top of the capital building to the confederate statue and then basically immediately turned back on that agreement days later. If that is true this makes them the most untrustworthy group around (which I already believe is true). How can you negotiate something and then they say well nevermind that's not enough (I believe they basically want that part of our history erased from the books). And last why is it any different that the flag is in the confederate museum or on a pole by the confederate statue? Will it be enough or will they want to tear down the museum next? I'm tired of our state being held hostage over a piece of history.

i don't see it ending until a number of things happen, which

Posted: May 29, 2014 9:07 AM

i'm not going to get into.

i went to a private skewl in virginia that is coming under fire from within over the flag & a lee-jackson day memorial/reinactment march.

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I wouldn't be surprised

Posted: May 29, 2014 11:36 AM

if they try to revoke VMI's accreditation, considering a bunch of the cadets went on to be confederate officers. It won't happen lol, but like I said, it wouldn't surprise me.

The flag was removed from the State House dome in 2000

Posted: May 29, 2014 9:39 AM

but, as you know, it was moved to a location that opponents now say is even more prominent.

Lawmakers led by then-senators Glenn McConnell and Robert Ford, of Charleston, crafted a compromise. The seemingly odd couple; McConnell, a white Republican and Civil War buff, and Ford, a black Democrat and civil rights activist, agreed that the flag would be moved, and the state would recognize both Confederate Memorial Day and Martin Luther King Jr. Day as holidays.

Once it became clear that the flag would be moved, eventhough the compromise complied with the resolution
of the NAACP that the flag be removed from the State House and relocated to a place of historical content, the NAACP and other flag opponents then insisted on adding additional conditions to the compromise pertaining to the flags new location.

More than a decade ago, under the leadership of a Democratic governor, South Carolinians Republican and Democrat, black and white, came to a compromise position on the Confederate flag, and lawmakers have taken the position that the flag controversy was settled.

However, the NAACP is certainly not satisfied.

Consequently, the situation is far from resolved.

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Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together.

Confederate flags were also removed from the Senate

Posted: May 29, 2014 9:46 AM

and House Chambers and elsewhere inside the Capitol as part of the compromise.

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Orange Googlers Unite

Save Tigernet--Boot the coots(you know who I mean).

As always, well said hartins***

Posted: May 29, 2014 8:50 AM

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"IDIOT POSTER OF THE MONTH SO FAR...GWP-- You have won IPM Award for your failure to completely comprehend a clear post & then choose to attack someone who points out your ignorance. While you are not yet in the same No Class Catagory as deRoberts, ClemTiger117 & Tigerdug23, you are getting closer to the Sewer Dwellers." - coachmac

The men that fought under that flag were the

Posted: May 29, 2014 9:01 AM

bravest and best warriors our country has ever known.

Most never owned a slave and simply fought because a tyrant in a foreign country invaded their nation.

And now as our constitution has been completely flushed down the toilet, people all over this country from Bangor to Bellingham are now realizing just how right they were.

So it's sad and ironic that so many of their thin-blooded descendants don't even appreciate what they did.

"Who else could have?

Who else could have made them fight: could have struck them so aghast with fear and dread as to turn shoulder to shoulder and face one way and even stop talking for a while and even after two years of it keep them still so wrung with terror that some among them would seriously propose moving their very capital into a foreign country lest it be ravaged and pillaged by a people whose entire white male population would have little more than filled any one of their larger cities: except Jackson in the Valley and three separate armies trying to catch him and none of them ever knowing whether they were just retreating form a battle or just running into one and Stuart riding his whole command entirely around the biggest single armed force this continent ever saw in order to see what it looked like from behind and Morgan leading a cavalry charge against a stranded man-of-war. who else could have declared a war against a power with ten times the area and a hundred times the men and a thousand times the resources, except men who could believe that all necessary to conduct a successful war was not acumen nor shrewdness nor politics nor diplomacy nor money nor even integrity and simple arithmetic but just love of land and courage--"

--William Faulkner, form "The Bear" in The Faulkner Reader

This black Virginian understands, even if you don't:


with each trillion the fed spends as it grows in leaps &

Posted: May 29, 2014 9:21 AM

bounds, i wonder what could have been if the confederacy had stood against the might of the union.

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You'll get to find out soon enough.***

Posted: May 29, 2014 7:57 PM

The men of Easy Company, 2nd Battalion

Posted: May 30, 2014 11:24 AM

of the 506th Parachute Infantry Regiment of the 101st Airborne Division might have something to say about that.

And did you just call Abraham Lincoln a tyrant?

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There's something in these hills.

The irrelevant "BOYCOTT" is nothing more...

Posted: May 29, 2014 9:18 AM

than an excuse for jonny swoffford to keep acc events in the state of Northern Carolina. There are numerous venues in South Carolina that are superior to where the acc championships are held today (eg. golf & baseball). The whole issue is a joke.

Swoffford is just using the NAACP as a means to justify his ends.

that's a hard argument to make now that the ACC is playing

Posted: May 29, 2014 9:59 AM

championships in places like NY and DC. SC has no place to play a football championship game outside of clemson and USC. and the baseball tournament has a very nice venue in greensboro, although i'm sure greenville's stadium is just as nice, i just have not been there.



Name a better acc baseball tourney venue than Myrtle Beach.***

Posted: May 29, 2014 10:22 AM

it's been several years since i've been to the stadium in

Posted: May 29, 2014 2:17 PM

myrtle, but i can't imagine it's any better than the ones in g'boro or winston-salem. again, i've not been there in several years.



My issue is that the narrative has changed from what

Posted: May 29, 2014 9:20 AM

a lot of states fought for, being states rights vs. federal government overreach to it was ONLY about slavery, which makes it easier to attack.

History is written by the victors, in any war the winning side will point out that they had the high moral ground to justify why a war was fought

Whatever you do, always give 100%.....unless it's donating blood

revisionist history is that it was about states' rights.

Posted: May 29, 2014 10:00 AM

it was about slavery. period.
that said, the NAACP made a deal and then they had buyer's remorse and wished that they had bargained for more. THAT said, just take the flag down and put it in a museum.



I completely disagree, but I doubt I can change your opinion

Posted: May 29, 2014 10:04 AM

over an internet message board, so I will not attempt to try

Whatever you do, always give 100%.....unless it's donating blood

If you read the declarations of secession....

Posted: May 29, 2014 11:27 AM

from the various states, the issue was very much about salvery.

In fact, there are a number of prevalent myths about why it all began.

1. The South seceded over states’ rights.

Confederate states did claim the right to secede, but no state claimed to be seceding for that right. In fact, Confederates opposed states’ rights — that is, the right of Northern states not to support slavery.

On Dec. 24, 1860, delegates at South Carolina’s secession convention adopted a “Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union.” It noted “an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery” and protested that Northern states had failed to “fulfill their constitutional obligations” by interfering with the return of fugitive slaves to bondage. Slavery, not states’ rights, birthed the Civil War.

South Carolina was further upset that New York no longer allowed “slavery transit.” In the past, if Charleston gentry wanted to spend August in the Hamptons, they could bring their cook along. No longer — and South Carolina’s delegates were outraged. In addition, they objected that New England states let black men vote and tolerated abolitionist societies. According to South Carolina, states should not have the right to let their citizens assemble and speak freely when what they said threatened slavery.

Other seceding states echoed South Carolina. “Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery — the greatest material interest of the world,” proclaimed Mississippi in its own secession declaration, passed Jan. 9, 1861. “Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of the commerce of the earth. .?.?. A blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization.”

The South’s opposition to states’ rights is not surprising. Until the Civil War, Southern presidents and lawmakers had dominated the federal government. The people in power in Washington always oppose states’ rights. Doing so preserves their own.

2. Secession was about tariffs and taxes.

To this day, this false claim is still floated that one of the main reasons for secession were the high tariffs and Northern states using Southern tax money to build their own infrastructure which is flatly wrong. High tariffs had prompted the Nullification Controversy in 1831-33, when, after South Carolina demanded the right to nullify federal laws or secede in protest, President Andrew Jackson threatened force. No state joined the movement, and South Carolina backed down. Tariffs were not an issue in 1860, and Southern states said nothing about them. Why would they? Southerners had written the tariff of 1857, under which the nation was functioning. Its rates were lower than at any point since 1816.

3. Most white Southerners didn’t own slaves, so they wouldn’t secede for slavery.

Indeed, most white Southern families had no slaves. Less than half of white Mississippi households owned one or more slaves, for example, and that proportion was smaller still in whiter states such as Virginia and Tennessee. It is also true that, in areas with few slaves, most white Southerners did not support secession. West Virginia seceded from Virginia to stay with the Union, and Confederate troops had to occupy parts of eastern Tennessee and northern Alabama to hold them in line.

However, two ideological factors caused most Southern whites, including those who were not slave-owners, to defend slavery. First, Americans are wondrous optimists, looking to the upper class and expecting to join it someday. In 1860, many subsistence farmers aspired to become large slave-owners. So poor white Southerners supported slavery then, just as many low-income people support the extension of George W. Bush’s tax cuts for the wealthy in the modern era.

Second and more important, belief in white supremacy provided a rationale for slavery. As the French political theorist Montesquieu observed wryly in 1748: “It is impossible for us to suppose these creatures [enslaved Africans] to be men; because allowing them to be men, a suspicion would follow that we ourselves are not Christians.” Given this belief, most white Southerners — and many Northerners, too — could not envision life in black-majority states such as South Carolina and Mississippi unless blacks were in chains. Georgia Supreme Court Justice Henry Benning, trying to persuade the Virginia Legislature to leave the Union, predicted race war if slavery was not protected. “The consequence will be that our men will be all exterminated or expelled to wander as vagabonds over a hostile earth, and as for our women, their fate will be too horrible to contemplate even in fancy.” Thus, secession would maintain not only slavery but the prevailing ideology of white supremacy as well.

4. Abraham Lincoln went to war to end slavery.

Since the Civil War did end slavery, many Americans think abolition was the Union’s goal. But the North initially went to war to hold the nation together. Abolition came later.

On Aug. 22, 1862, President Lincoln wrote a letter to the New York Tribune that included the following passage: “If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that. What I do about slavery and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union.”

However, Lincoln’s own anti-slavery sentiment was widely known at the time. In the same letter, he went on: “I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men every where could be free.” A month later, Lincoln combined official duty and private wish in his preliminary Emancipation Proclamation.

White Northerners’ fear of freed slaves moving north then caused Republicans to lose the Midwest in the congressional elections of November 1862.

Gradually, as Union soldiers found help from black civilians in the South and black recruits impressed white units with their bravery, many soldiers — and those they wrote home to — became abolitionists. By 1864, when Maryland voted to end slavery, soldiers’ and sailors’ votes made the difference.

5. The South couldn’t have made it long as a slave society.

Slavery was hardly on its last legs in 1860. That year, the South produced almost 75 percent of all U.S. exports. Slaves were worth more than all the manufacturing companies and railroads in the nation. No elite class in history has ever given up such an immense interest voluntarily. Moreover, Confederates eyed territorial expansion into Mexico and Cuba. Short of war, who would have stopped them — or forced them to abandon slavery?

To claim that slavery would have ended of its own accord by the mid-20th century is impossible to disprove but difficult to accept. In 1860, slavery was growing more entrenched in the South. Unpaid labor makes for big profits, and the Southern elite was growing ever richer. Freeing slaves was becoming more and more difficult for their owners, as was the position of free blacks in the United States, North as well as South. For the foreseeable future, slavery looked secure.

Perhaps a civil war was required to end it.

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Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together.

Yes Lincoln, the Great

Posted: May 29, 2014 5:14 PM



Fiat Justitia et Pereat Mundus

State's right to own slaves

Posted: May 29, 2014 7:55 PM

there might have been another right they were fighting for, but nobody remembers

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As a proud Southerner, it was about slavery.

Posted: May 30, 2014 2:37 PM

That's what the states wanted the right to do.

But it's not like the North was morally superior. If agriculture was the core of their economy, they would have wanted to hold onto slavery too. Climate determined the geography of slavery.

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If the NAACP stops whining about meaningless PC crap...

Posted: May 29, 2014 11:39 AM

then what else will they have to do? Actually invest in helping people? That's just unrealistic.

I agree that SC needs to force the issue here. Ole Miss gets away with all sorts of race-relations shenanigans and seems to be recruiting well.

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Aren't the NCAA and ACC more influenced by the Black

Posted: May 29, 2014 12:43 PM

Coaches Association's stand rather than by the NAACP?

Some of the members are Clemson coaches.

Message was edited by: josephg®

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I don't know what's more asinine...the NAACP boycot or

Posted: May 29, 2014 2:19 PM

the people who oblige it.

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There's something in these hills.

NAACP serves no useful purpose anymore. Can't we all...

Posted: May 29, 2014 3:36 PM

just get along?


Oh yes it does serve a purpose....

Posted: May 29, 2014 4:28 PM

without the NAACP causing racism more than any group ever, Jesse and Al have no job. NAACP is their job security

Rodney, where you been dawg?***

Posted: May 29, 2014 5:15 PM


Fiat Justitia et Pereat Mundus

With Golf and Baseball I dont know why they are in NC

Posted: May 30, 2014 12:10 PM

SC has far superior facilities than anywhere else the ACC can set up.

I understand why the Football championship is in Charlotte, its the center of the ACC geographically and is the headquarters for the conference.

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