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Replies: 59
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Rock Defender [53]
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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these are the only arguments you heard about it?***
Nov 5, 2014, 9:16 AM
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: these are the only arguments you heard about it?***
Nov 5, 2014, 9:19 AM
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I'm all ears bud.
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CU Guru [1723]
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So the main government office pushing the raise says its
Nov 5, 2014, 9:17 AM
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all good?
Well then I'm in! Got for it...surely they would have no reason to pick a position and find facts to support it.
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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reads like a democrat talking points list***
Nov 5, 2014, 9:17 AM
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: reads like a democrat talking points list***
Nov 5, 2014, 9:19 AM
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Pretty much as anticipated, only ad hominem fallacies in here. Nobody can offer any actual evidence stating that raising the minimum wage would be harmful to our economy.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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None of that "mythbuster" evidence is verifiable.
Nov 5, 2014, 9:36 AM
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Not to mention, what do you think happens when you raise costs for businesses? What if say, McDonalds, upped their minimum wage to $15 an hour...What do you think the effect on their prices would be? Do you think everything would remain the same? Go a little bit further, if one of the most basic jobs in the country is now worth $15 an hour, what is say, a machinists labor now worth?
The problem with some of these arguments is that they assume we operate in a vacuum. Unfortunately, that's not the case. If you give a little here, you're going to have to take a little from there.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: None of that "mythbuster" evidence is verifiable.
Nov 5, 2014, 9:39 AM
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Here's my position. I don't have a hard position on it either way, I am purely motivated by evidence. Is there any evidence showing raising the minimum wage will harm our economy? If so, then fair enough maybe it's not a good idea. But I don't think there is evidence showing that. As of right now, our economy sucks and our minumum wages are historically pretty low when adjusted for inflation. Why not give it a boost and see what happens?
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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I think it's pretty well documented that
Nov 5, 2014, 9:46 AM
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raising operational costs on businesses doesn't typically pan out well for the economy. Just try to think through the scenario, instead of saying "#### it, let's try it".
Instead of raising the minimum wage, why not crack down on illegal immigration, secure the border, and begin to stem the tide of illegal immigrants undercutting American labor? Take away the option for businesses to procure that cheap labor, and give jobs back to actual Americans.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I think it's pretty well documented that
Nov 5, 2014, 10:10 AM
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When adjusted for inflation, the minimum wage has consistently dropped since the 60's. And it's doing wonders for our economy *rolls eyes*. I'm not saying "#### it", i'm saying show me the numbers. You say it's well documented, well let's see those numbers where raising the minimum wage adversely affects our economy.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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I think this is a bit more complicated than you're willing
Nov 5, 2014, 10:35 AM
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to admit. Just slowly think through this scenario...
You own a McDonalds employing many minimum wage workers to do one of the most basic jobs in the world....You are mandated to pay your employees say, 15% more. Do you cut workers, raise menu prices, or just absorb the costs? If you raise the price of your product, would that not offset the additional income you have given your workers? After all, they're consumers too.
Ok, now say you own a machine shop employing people to do a very skilled task...McDonalds workers just got a 15% raise, making their wage competitive with that of a skilled machine operator. Certainly, the skilled labor is worth much more than the unskilled, so wouldn't the pay have to reflect that?
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110%er [8243]
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Don't forget that many unions have tied their labor rates
Nov 5, 2014, 10:46 AM
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directly to the min wage. So when the guys on bottom get a raise, the skilled guys in some places also get an automatic raise. The owners of small/medium machine shops in yankee land will be affected, as will their customers.
Come to think of it, that might help manufacturing in the south. hmmm.
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Hall of Famer [24764]
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So that CEO only gets a $1 Million bonus instead of 2?***
Nov 5, 2014, 2:05 PM
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110%er [8243]
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Small/medium size machine shops don't have CEO's.
Nov 5, 2014, 2:28 PM
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They have an owner that employs people and hopefully makes a profit. Stop being a broken record, for Christ's sake.
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Hall of Famer [24764]
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Who contracts for their products?***
Nov 5, 2014, 3:36 PM
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110%er [8243]
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Large companies, small companies, truck drivers,
Nov 5, 2014, 4:04 PM
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guys who need their utility trailer fixed, entrepreneurs who want a prototype made, municipalities, states, electrical co-ops, etc, etc. You have no idea what you are talking about.
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Hall of Famer [24764]
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First off, I wasn't inferring CEOs of machine shops. That
Nov 6, 2014, 2:19 PM
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comment was directed toward the CEOs of major companies, most of which have outsourced their needs to foreign suppliers. As to the small local machine shops, they will always have the market on 'specialty' work but no longer have the 'big order' subcontract work they enjoyed in the past. The 'gutting' started in the early 80s and is much more evident in the North. I personally know two different machine shop owners who have closed their doors in the last ten years.That was their explanation to me. But what do I know...?
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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you are awesome
Nov 5, 2014, 9:36 AM
[ in reply to Re: reads like a democrat talking points list*** ] |
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but your argument is a list like this?
Myth: Increasing the minimum wage is bad for businesses.
Not true: Academic research has shown that higher wages sharply reduce employee turnover which can reduce employment and training costs.
First, academic studies versus real world situations don't mean a whole lot to me. I know academic studies are really important to the very intelligent Obama people, but we see how his policies play out in the real world.
Secondly, what academic studies? Let's see them and how they came to their conclusions.
Really tired of wasting my time, as this has been talked about time and time again, but let's use a little commons sense.
Minimum wage jobs are not meant to be career paths. Unless you are going into management, a McDonald's job is not meant to support a family.
If you artificially raise the wage on untrained, low educated workers, what does this do to incomes of other workers: people who have worked hard to get a good paying job? So the same argument that this site makes about the minimum wage not being the same as it was 30 years ago even though it is more money works for workers not having their incomes artificially inflated.
Using common sense, when you artificially raise the minimum wage, somebody id going to pay for it through rising costs in services and goods. Business owners aren't going to absorb those costs.
Using coming sense and not uncited surveys and studies, when you force businesses to pay their low skilled workers more it does reduce the number of positions they can create.
The good idea is for the minimum wage people to quit trying to come up with a short cut to increasing people's wages and/or reducing income inequality and actually pass policies that will help the economy grow through the private sector.
I'm not totally against the minimum wage or raising the minimum wage, but if it is done, it needs to be done in a strong economy. Regardless of what we are being fed, the economy is not good right now. The real world showed us that yesterday as exit polls said the economy was the number one issue for most voters.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: you are awesome
Nov 5, 2014, 9:48 AM
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First off Franc, why the personal attacks? I didn't just tell you your baby was ugly I'm on the politics and religion board to have a discussion.
I also have read a lot of your posts before and although I don't agree with you all of the time, you seem sharp and have good arguments so can we just have a friendly debate?
>I'm not totally against the minimum wage or raising the minimum wage, but if it is done, it needs to be done in a strong economy. Regardless of what we are being fed, the economy is not good right now.
I'm not totally for/against it either, but a lot of things aren't working for our economy right now, why not try it when we are down and see if it helps? Yes the economy is down but so is our buying power as a whole. Although prices will definitely rise, we aren't talking about a big mac going up to $10. McDonald's is pretty #### efficient, they aren't going to raise prices that much.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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How do you know it won't rise to $10?
Nov 5, 2014, 9:55 AM
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And if you concede that it will raise prices, won't that offset any additional income?
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CU Medallion [60228]
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have you been to McDonald's lately?
Nov 5, 2014, 9:58 AM
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lunch combo is approaching $8. And that's not supersizing.
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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stick with the dollar menu...
Nov 5, 2014, 9:59 AM
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they cook that food in the basement with illegal aliens
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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I haven't, but it doesn't surprise me...
Nov 5, 2014, 10:07 AM
[ in reply to have you been to McDonald's lately? ] |
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Seems prices have gone up everywhere, while the quantity you get goes down.
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Hall of Famer [24764]
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And the 'bottom line' increases and the CEO gets a bonus...
Nov 5, 2014, 2:11 PM
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I don't know how old you are but that's been a trend since the 80s. Meanwhile, wages have been stagnant.
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All-In [40929]
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we should force the CEO of McD's to take $1,000,000
Nov 6, 2014, 4:20 AM
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of his personal money and give each and every employee a 60 cent bonus!
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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why the personal attacks?
Nov 5, 2014, 9:58 AM
[ in reply to Re: you are awesome ] |
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http://www.tigernet.com/forums/message.jspa?messageID=16163444
Your attitude.
I have to be honest. If you find that propaganda list from the government was an effective refutation of arguments against the minimum wage, then I'm having a hard time seeing where we are going to be on the same page.
The only one that I think has truth to it is:
Myth: Increasing the minimum wage is bad for the economy.
But, it is all about timing.
Two-thirds of the statements on that page are arguments I haven't heard anybody making or are basically the same argument restated 5 different ways.
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Hall of Famer [24764]
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The lack of consumer buying power IS the reason that the
Nov 5, 2014, 2:08 PM
[ in reply to you are awesome ] |
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economy isn't good now. There just aren't enough people buying yachts and chalets to support it.
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Rock Defender [53]
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CU Medallion [60228]
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my official opinion is I don't care
Nov 5, 2014, 9:25 AM
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there are far more important issues in the world than to mandate what employers have to pay people. If they pay too little, they won't get quality workers, or won't get workers at all.
I worked for minimum wage when I was a young, out on a golf course. And was happy to get it, no complaining, or strikes, or "sick outs". I worked hard and got a raise ABOVE minimum wage after a few months. And continued to work hard and got more raises. That's how it works.
If you don't like what you make, you either a) work harder and get a raise, or 2) find another job that pays more.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: my official opinion is I don't care
Nov 5, 2014, 9:31 AM
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Scooter, I totally agree that you should work hard and try to find another job but that is NOT how it always works. Hard work doesn't guarantee you a raise or a better job. There are plenty of extremely hard working people working multiple minimum wage jobs that can't get ahead.
There are a lot of companies who will pay crap wages and of course some people won't work for that low wage, but some desperate person will. That is not good business and THAT hurts our economy. Why? Well because the business owner will then be padding his pockets and the lower wage employee will not have spending money to go out and buy goods. It's pretty simple actually.
This, by the way, is not asking for handouts. It's simply asking for fair pay for a honest day's work.
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CU Medallion [60228]
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ah, the magic word......"fair"
Nov 5, 2014, 9:39 AM
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the word that can never be defined.
Life ain't.
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110%er [6639]
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There you go again....
Nov 5, 2014, 11:27 AM
[ in reply to my official opinion is I don't care ] |
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with all that real life experience and common sense stuff.....
Always refreshing to read your responses
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Legend [15749]
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Whoa whoa whoa...Tigernet has a minimum wage?***
Nov 5, 2014, 9:26 AM
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Whoa whoa whoa...Tigernet has a minimum wage?***
Nov 5, 2014, 9:32 AM
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Yup. Tree Fiddy.
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110%er [8243]
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I used to employ minimum wage workers.
Nov 5, 2014, 9:32 AM
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The older set that were supporting a family generally were lazy and sick often but would stick around for a long time reducing training costs. The teenagers generally were great but only worked there for 6 mos when they got a better job partly based on my recommendation. None of them were worth more to me than what min wage was at the time. Occaisionally, some of them would take home more money than me, especially shortly after GW Bush raised the min wage last time. Anecdotal, but true.
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CU Medallion [56069]
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Tigernet consensus, lol.***
Nov 5, 2014, 9:54 AM
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110%er [9093]
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If the goberment sez it, it must be true***
Nov 5, 2014, 10:17 AM
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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I could be wrong but....
Nov 5, 2014, 10:23 AM
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I don't remember our government website being used for partisan propaganda before Obama became POTUS.
In my opinion, .gov pages should be purely informational and not used to promote an agenda.
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All-In [47795]
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don't bother:
Nov 5, 2014, 10:37 AM
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All-In [40344]
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lots of random thoughts on the subject
Nov 5, 2014, 10:39 AM
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Minimum wage is not supposed to be a career salary, it is a stepping stone for high school kids and those with no knowledge or experience. It was never designed for adults trying to support a family and it never should be.
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Oculus Spirit [97716]
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I think it shows a sad state of affairs in our economy
Nov 5, 2014, 11:08 AM
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Minimum wage is not, nor has it ever been intended to be a "living wage". It is intended for high school kids to gain working experience while still being supported by their parents.
But for whatever reason young people don't work nowadays. So you have older people competing for less jobs. You have illegal immigrants willing to work at this pay level also. You have fewer jobs today, and a greater percentage of them are minimum wage jobs, and/or part time jobs. And you have people taking these jobs who are trying to make a living. Adults and often retirees, who in the ideal world would have worked their way up the pay ladder above minimum wage, leaving those jobs for their kids.
You see this everywhere now. Older adults are taking jobs traditionally held by kids 15-20 years old. And the kids are not working, leaving them at a huge disadvantage when they finally move out of their parents basement and into the working world.
As for your link....here's an argument that's not addressed....
It creates inflation in prices of products produced at minimum wage. McDonalds will have to pay employees 27% more if the minimum wage goes up to $10.10. Where does McDonalds get their income? From selling hamburgers. Plus, workers formerly just above the minimum wage will have to have their pay increased as well. Then you get a burger that costs 27% more. Your produce, picked by laborers at minimum wage will go up 27%. The consumer's buying power falls and the net benefit of more money is lost when the price of goods adjusts to the price of labor. Then they want another increase, which is why it has risen 22 times, as cited in the article.
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Hall of Famer [24764]
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Yea, so let's have a Socialist bailout of Wall Street and
Nov 5, 2014, 2:19 PM
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give them bonuses for screwing EVERYBODY.. Gotcha.
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All-In [28802]
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I'm against it, but especially against it federally
Nov 5, 2014, 11:17 AM
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I don't have as much of a problem with states raising the minimum wage by reasonable amounts, because then the states can compete among each other. But I'm not sure it makes sense to have the same minimum wage in Mississippi that you do in California.
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Hall of Famer [24764]
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That's more of the approach I would have, also. +1.***
Nov 5, 2014, 2:20 PM
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Rock Defender [53]
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CU Medallion [58411]
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How can "the government" possibly determine how much
Nov 5, 2014, 12:18 PM
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a particular employee or job function is worth to a particular employer? It can't, so therefore is will almost always cause the employer to pay the employee something other than what they are actually worth. The idea is preposterous on its face. Paying a person what they are actually worth should be the only concern, not providing a "living wage" or any particular standard of living.
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All-TigerNet [12269]
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Re: What is the tigernet consensus on raising the minimum wage?
Nov 5, 2014, 5:02 PM
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Now that is unbiased for sure!
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110%er [6155]
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Get rid of minimum wage entirely.***
Nov 5, 2014, 6:43 PM
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All-In [40929]
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Why stop at $10 an hour? Since it has no negative effect at
Nov 5, 2014, 7:32 PM
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all why not double it to $20 an hour.
Unfortunately, a large portion of our population is just plain stupid.
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All-In [40929]
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Re: Why stop at $10 an hour? Since it has no negative effect at
Nov 5, 2014, 7:41 PM
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affect...talk about stupid
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Why stop at $10 an hour? Since it has no negative effect at
Nov 5, 2014, 10:47 PM
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lol.. I type for a living (software developer) I know the feeling....
But anyway back to your point, yes doubling to $20 would be ridiculous sure, but wouldn't you agree that lowering it to say $0.50/hr would also be ridiculous? That is to say, there is some reasonable amount we should be able to agree upon. Obviously nobody knows that that is, but my point is that there should be some sort of standard right? All I am saying is, if you hire someone and that person puts in a full honest days work for 40 hours a week, they should be able to at least afford to pay their bills. According to tigernet though, that's just me.
I couldn't imagine owning a business and paying my employees knowing that they would need to get another job or go on government support just to get by. I plan on owning my own business pretty soon and although my line of work will require me to pay well above minimum wage to attract any reasonable talent, I will make sure I am paying them fairly instead of just trying to pad my own pockets.
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All-In [40929]
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No, I don't think lowering it to 50 cents per hour is
Nov 6, 2014, 3:52 AM
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ridiculous. I don't believe that you will find anyone to work for that much. Two of my three children work for less than min wage. I have no problem with that at all. One is a bus boy and the other is a hostess. Both get their pay made up with shared tips. I don't think they should get a forced raise. They can work hard and get a better job if they want.
Basic economics - raising the minimum wage above the equilibrium wage that exists from supply and demand creates unemployment.
At 17, I was living on my own making minimum wage. By 18, I was making well above min wage and by 19 I was close to double min wage. I was a high school dropout. Night school, GED, community college, Clemson. It took me almost 10 years to get my BS and MS in engineering.
Pay me more than I am worth and guess what, my productivity goes to hell and I don't care. That is why so many people working in government are so incredibly inept.
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All-In [34108]
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All-In [25475]
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Re: What is the tigernet consensus on raising the minimum wage?
Nov 6, 2014, 11:17 AM
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Why $15.00 an hour min. wage? If min. wage is good, why not $100.00 an hour? Why not $1000.00 an hour? How did $15.00 an hour become the ideal min. wage? Where's the study showing $15.00 an hour or any min. amount being the "ideal" amount? My point being, that a min. wage is purely subjective and does not take into consideration the worth of labor. Not everyone or every job is worth min. wage, no matter what the figure. Some jobs/people are worth more. In a capitalist economy, competition , supply and demand will set the price of goods/services and wages. It cannot be artificially set by the gubmint.
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Hall of Famer [24764]
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In a TRUE capitalist economy, gubmint doesn't bail out the
Nov 6, 2014, 2:29 PM
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Wall Street Ponzi schemers and artificially manipulate the markets through the Federal Reserve's money supply and interest rates. What passes as "Capitalism" is nothing but a manipulation of the masses. Unfortunately, most will keep harping that BS...
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All-In [25475]
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Joined: 10/12/08
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Re: In a TRUE capitalist economy, gubmint doesn't bail out the
Nov 6, 2014, 3:10 PM
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Well, not all capitalists, and certainly not conservatives and Libertarians agree with what you described. So, who is screwing with the system?
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Hall of Famer [24764]
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Posts: 42486
Joined: 7/31/10
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I don't work with generic labeling. The 'Banks' are the ones***
Nov 7, 2014, 3:11 AM
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CU Guru [1599]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Joined: 1/30/05
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You want numbers?
Nov 7, 2014, 8:58 AM
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What "numbers" are you talking about exactly? Numbers are the results of something that has already happened with the proper variables measured. It seems like what you are really after is numbers of why raising the minimum wage has done nothing for our country. The fact is, it gets raised every few years. But you say, "Ignore all of those raises to MW because those were just to cover inflation." You are assuming that inflation is completely independent of raising the minimum wage...which is false. I argue that raising minimum wage is a CONTRIBUTOR to inflation and not the other way around. I'll get to that point.
Do you want a minimum wage job to support a family of 4 with no gov't assistance? If so, how do we get there if we devalue the dollar? Raising the minimum wage is redefining the dollar as LESS WORK per DOLLAR. Less work per dollar is close to the definition of inflation. So saying that our past raising is just to keep up with inflation is you buying a democrat/union political pamphlet hook, line and sinker.
I want more Americans working and not less. That should be the goal. The more productive a society, the more efficient it can be. This would lead to getting MORE WORK per DOLLAR. Raising the minimum wage has lead to more outsourcing and illegal immigrant labor, further reducing jobs. Whether we like it or not, we don't get to exclude labor from globalization so the only way to combat the globalization of labor is to become more efficient and have our dollar go further.
TLDNR
For sake of numbers, if you raised the MW from $8 to $12, $12 would be the new $8.
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Hall of Famer [24764]
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Joined: 7/31/10
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Did you get that for free or did they charge you for that BS***
Nov 7, 2014, 11:43 PM
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110%er [8984]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Joined: 4/27/13
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need to import millions of unskilled laborers, that should
Nov 7, 2014, 9:05 PM
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make wages rise
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