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All-In [40344]
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Deep thoughts on Politics and not religion
Feb 11, 2020, 10:33 AM
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The whole political dirt digging that’s being discussed is the topic.
At what point is one considered a political rival?
You’ve got the sitting president being accused (rightly or wrongly isn’t the topic) of trying to dig up dirt on a political rival
This makes me think, you’d at least have to win the nomination before being considered a rival. He’s not polling so hot and it’s being reported that he’s losing money fast.
To move it to sports, Clemson from the ACC isn’t going to be scouting UF of the SEC 8 games into the season on the off chance that they play for a title, right?
Could it be the messaging that sways opinion so strongly?
Presidents Lawyer claims to have new information on possible wrongdoings while in office of Democrat Presidential hopeful, Joe Biden.
That doesn’t sound near as bad to me, but also is the same message.
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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suspicion of wrongdoing of said political rival...
Feb 11, 2020, 10:43 AM
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predates the current POTUS...
Like you, I'm not saying it's right or wrong.
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All-In [49037]
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When Biden got in
Feb 11, 2020, 10:55 AM
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he was thought to be the guy who could roll Trump. But I don't think anyone expected him to so quickly show his "get off my lawn!" side.
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All-In [28802]
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He doesn't fit the populist mood
Feb 12, 2020, 11:46 AM
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He was also always the wrong person for a party where all the passionate intensity is on the far left (to paraphrase Yeats).
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All-In [26968]
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It's about motive.
Feb 11, 2020, 11:13 AM
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The President knows, and God knows, why he would want certain people investigated. And maybe some other people know, if the President has told them the reason.
Just because a person hasn't secured a party nomination doesn't mean they are not a political rival to the President. If he considers them a rival and is investigating for that reason, that's all that matters.
Likewise, securing a nomination doesn't make someone all of a sudden immune to investigation. If there is wrongdoing by a person, then that should be investigated, up to and including the day of the election itself. If the motive is right, then the action is right.
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110%er [7026]
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Does motive really matter though
Feb 11, 2020, 11:16 AM
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if there's evidence of wrongdoing?
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All-In [40344]
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does the end justify the means?***
Feb 11, 2020, 11:18 AM
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110%er [7026]
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I don't feel like it's an end justifies the means situation.
Feb 11, 2020, 11:47 AM
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Is someone immune from investigation simply because the person initiating the investigation may benefit if evidence given of wrongdoing is proven true?
Take the fact that it's Trump/Biden, Dem/Pub out of it.
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110%er [7013]
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There are legit means to investigate the things alleged
Feb 11, 2020, 11:59 AM
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in Ukraine. That trump went with Guiliani and a redux of Nixon's RatF---ers clan is where the line was crossed in a glaring manner.
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All-In [26968]
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Ideally, in sensitive cases where there might be
Feb 11, 2020, 12:20 PM
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questions, then the investigator must make every effort to make it above board, to avoid an appearance of impropriety.
Some practical ways in which the President could have done this is by making sure to use only official channels, and to avoid as much personal involvement as possible, giving the OK, but then going completely hands off and quiet about it. Yes, bringing it up in a phone call with the Ukrainian president displayed a lack of discretion, and it brought about his impeachment.
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All-In [28802]
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Him being personally involved is also a bad look***
Feb 12, 2020, 11:55 AM
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All-In [26968]
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It matters when judging the individual with the motives.
Feb 11, 2020, 11:22 AM
[ in reply to Does motive really matter though ] |
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If there's evidence of wrongdoing, the person should be investigated. However, if the person ordering the investigation has a motive of revenge or self-interest, then that person does not (to me) deserve praise for ordering it.
It's kinda like when Jesus criticized the Pharisees for doing some good things, but doing them in self-interest.
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Oculus Spirit [93667]
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If Barr's look into Rudy's allegations and finds Joe...
Feb 11, 2020, 12:20 PM
[ in reply to It's about motive. ] |
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did something illegal like enriching his family through the power of his office, willfully participated in something which was a clear conflict of interest or just plain made a horrible mistake without intent to do either would you deem the investigation justified?
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All-In [26968]
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Of course, obviously.***
Feb 11, 2020, 12:21 PM
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All-In [28802]
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But that would be a US investigation
Feb 12, 2020, 11:43 AM
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It still wouldn't justify the way Trump went about things. Barr could've been investigating things without Trump's "perfect call" to Zelensky, which included lots of silliness.
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All-In [47795]
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why does subjective motive matter?
Feb 11, 2020, 12:21 PM
[ in reply to It's about motive. ] |
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since we're talking hypotheticals, what if the Ukrainians followed-up with the investigation and it revealed the worst corruption on the part of the Bidens since Teapot Dome?
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All-In [26968]
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My post was an answer to the OP's question.
Feb 11, 2020, 12:24 PM
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His question was not "should Biden be punished?"
His question dealt with how to judge the President on these matters. The answer to that, in my opinion, is about the President's motive.
Any wrongdoing, if found out, should be punished as per the law. That has nothing to do with who a person is or who the President is, or what the President wants.
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All-In [47795]
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let me see if I can clarify my point
Feb 11, 2020, 12:32 PM
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suppose a first neighbor is upset with a second neighbor for doing things which are a nuisance but not otherwise illegal (like mowing grass early in the morning or whatever).
So, the first neighbor (without any other cause) decides to harass the second neighbor by making a call to the police accusing the second neighbor of distributing drugs from his house. The police show up and find that the second neighbor is indeed distributing drugs.
Can the first neighbor be charged with the crime of making a false police report against the second neighbor because he had a wrong motive but the report turned out to be true?
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All-In [26968]
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I don't know for sure about the law...
Feb 11, 2020, 12:39 PM
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Over filing false police reports. It seems logical to me that he would not be so charged, but I don't know for sure.
It'd be a situation where something good happens in spite of someone doing something wrong (the person making a false accusation). Thank the Lord that happens sometimes.
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All-In [28802]
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What evidence was there of wrongdoing?
Feb 12, 2020, 11:41 AM
[ in reply to It's about motive. ] |
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What events initiated Trump's interest in prompting the Ukrainians to look in Hunter Biden?
What we have in the call that indicates Trump's motive is this: a conspiracy theory about how the Russian election meddling actually came from Ukraine; noticing Hunter Biden was on the board of Burisma; noticing Joe Biden led a US effort to have former prosecutor Shokin fired (not on the call: the fact that Biden was part of an international effort, including Ukrainian anti-corruption groups, to have Shokin fired because he wasn't tough enough on corruption); Trump praising Shokin as a good prosecutor (presumably because Shokin's office had begun an investigation into Burisma, although that investigation was dormant); Trump pressuring Zelensky to investigate Hunter Biden based on the above. There is no real evidence of wrongdoing discussed other than conspiracy theorizing and an implied, apparent conflict of interest for Joe Biden.
So it's really hard for me to believe, in the absence of any real evidence, that Trump was so worried about the Bidens being corrupt in Ukraine that he brought it up to the new Ukrainian President on their first phone call. What it looks more like is Trump trying to hit back at someone he holds responsible for the Russian collusion investigation. The whole thing was ill thought out, and almost seems designed to create problems for Trump. There were lots of other ways of going about investigating corruption in Ukraine that would've raised less hackles, but it doesn't seem like any of those were considered.
This is one reason why Democrats thought what Trump did was worth impeaching and removing him over, and why some Republicans have said what Trump did was inappropriate and wrong.
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Legend [15492]
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Re: Deep thoughts on Politics and not religion
Feb 11, 2020, 6:45 PM
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I agree, the messaging is what drives people.
I remember when the message was 'the DOJ shouldn't have gone near the Steele Report because it's oppo paid for by Hillary".
Now the message is 'Trump's personal attorney has some oppo on Biden so the Justice Department is looking into it."
It's the same message. Personally I think the media, which is owned by corporations, spit whatever message out that arouses the most passion and increases their viewership. The higher the viewers the more they can charge for advertising.
Everything is for sale now, even us.
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110%er [8984]
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the bidens are not the only politicians involved in ukraine
Feb 11, 2020, 7:15 PM
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kerry, pelosi, on and on
thats why they are trying so hard to get rid of trump
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