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CU Medallion [58411]
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What are your expectations for Clemson basketball?
Dec 21, 2015, 10:07 AM
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I'm not talking about specifically for Brownell and the current situation, but for the program in general, going forward.
Is basketball important at Clemson? How important? Should we just accept that we are doomed to eternal mediocrity and frustration? Or should we aspire to be better, and try to rise above our past and actually compete at a higher level than we traditionally have? What should minimum expectations be in terms of wins, conference finish, post-season appearances, rankings, etc?
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Legend [15914]
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Let me start by saying my FR year was when Barnes was coach
Dec 21, 2015, 10:22 AM
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I've watched this team be competitive with the big dogs. I have seen good players choose Clemson and be coached up. I have cheered through the dark Shyatt days, rode the rollercaoster of highs and lows with OP, and watched the decline again under Brownell.
I expect us to be competitive every year. I accept there will be 6-10 or 7-9 ACC years for a rebuild. Following that rebuild I would like to see Clemson playing for an ACC title at least once every 5 years; playing in the NCAA tourney AT LEAST 2 out of 5 years and acutally advancing at least 1 of those years.
Year 1.... 6-10 ACC
Year 2... 8-8 / 9-7 ACC
Year 3-5 10+ ACC wins, 2 of these years should be NCAA tourney and advancing.
That's a start for me. I'd love for one of those teams to advance to sweet 16 or final 4, but I think it will work out if the above goals could be met.
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Legend [19686]
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I'd be on board with that, but
Dec 21, 2015, 10:31 AM
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for that to happen, certain things have to be in place. It all begins with treating basketball as something other than a red headed step child. The facilities are a great start. They put us on close to equal footing, but we are in a league that invests in basketball like we do football. To attain what you speak of, we have to finally commit to doing the same. Continued facility enhancements, staff pay the is competitive compared to our league, ample recruiting budget.
Then, the coach that gets us there has to be retained. The build it and leave pattern has to stop.
Full commitment is required, and that's something we have never had
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CU Medallion [58411]
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Exactamundo! We know for a fact that the fans will
Dec 21, 2015, 11:02 AM
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support a winning program. Littlejohn was traditionally a very tough place t play for opponents, and fans showed up in force and went nuts when we had decent teams that actually had a shot at knocking off the big guys and making the post season. Can't expect the fan's commitment to be greater than that of the university however, at least not for long. I firmly believe we can be better, and that it's just a matter of commitment.
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All-In [28802]
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110%er [6662]
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Re: What are your expectations for Clemson basketball?
Dec 21, 2015, 10:25 AM
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No expectations.
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MVP [531]
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Re: What are your expectations for Clemson basketball?
Dec 21, 2015, 10:26 AM
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I believe we'll play every game.
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Orange Blooded [4559]
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Re: What are your expectations for Clemson basketball?
Dec 21, 2015, 10:31 AM
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NCAA tournament every other year. NIT on off years. There is absolutely no excuse whatsoever for not at least getting an NIT invite. That's happened twice on the current coach's watch.
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All-In [48078]
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The big dance every other year at worst.**
Dec 21, 2015, 10:29 AM
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nm
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110%er [7913]
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I'm almost 44 and I've seen us go to the NCAA tournament
Dec 21, 2015, 10:51 AM
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11 times in my life....1 out of 4.....how are we suddenly going to double that historic trend? I just don't see it....I love Clemson basketball...I'm old enough to remember sitting in my room as a kid listening to Jim Phillips from places like College Park and Winston Salem...hoping we'd find a way to win...I just don't see it. Clemson is a football school. It is. I've tried to make every argument in my mind over the past 30+ years as to why we can win at Clemson in basketball and for the most part we've been what we are....inconsistent at best. I'm hoping for a winner but not expecting it. Give me the choice of a playoff in football or NCAA tournament run I'm taking what we have.
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All-In [44044]
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We get out what we put in.
Dec 21, 2015, 11:15 AM
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Historically we have made basketball a low priority, in the way we fund it and support it. It is no surprise that we perform accordingly on the court. We can absolutely be a basketball power, but it's going to take a LOT more effort and enthusiasm. The key isn't simply finding another coach. It is changing our approach entirely.
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All-TigerNet [14470]
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Re: We get out what we put in.
Dec 21, 2015, 11:21 AM
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PLEASE JUDGE, FACTS AND LOGIC MEAN NOTHING ON THIS BOARD.
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110%er [7488]
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Orange Blooded [4504]
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LOL! Worst is big dance every other year? Someone
Dec 21, 2015, 2:10 PM
[ in reply to The big dance every other year at worst.** ] |
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hasn't been keeping up with BB over the years but expects more in a tougher ACC?
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All-In [48078]
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Yeah the Big Dance at worst every two years.
Dec 21, 2015, 2:33 PM
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NIT on bad years. I keep up with it and those are still my expectations.
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All-In [44044]
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My higher expectations are contingent upon
Dec 21, 2015, 2:44 PM
[ in reply to LOL! Worst is big dance every other year? Someone ] |
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a much improved commitment from the administration and fans. We obviously can't expect much if we continue treating basketball as an afterthought like we historically have.
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All-Conference [439]
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Re: What are your expectations for Clemson basketball?
Dec 21, 2015, 10:33 AM
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As a supporter of Clemson basketball for the past 10 years my expectation is to be reasonably competitive in the ACC by finishing in the top 6. Along with this I would like to make the NCAA tournament every other year or so. Finally, making a good run int he tournament every 5 years or so.
I believe all of this absolutely achievable at Clemson, but the main this that has to improve is recruiting.
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All-TigerNet [10402]
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Re: What are your expectations for Clemson basketball?
Dec 21, 2015, 10:35 AM
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Just to be able to hit a 10 ft jump shot.
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Orange Blooded [4504]
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Well your expectation is met many times a game. Congrats!***
Dec 21, 2015, 2:16 PM
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CU Guru [1295]
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Re: What are your expectations for Clemson basketball?
Dec 21, 2015, 10:38 AM
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No matter what we think. Basketball will never be as important as football and baseball.
With that being said.....just be competitive in basketball and that's good enough for me.
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All-In [48078]
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I definitely think basketball could be way bigger...
Dec 21, 2015, 10:39 AM
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than baseball.
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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All-In [44044]
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Basketball is already more popular at Clemson than baseball.***
Dec 21, 2015, 11:23 AM
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110%er [6937]
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Re Tell me that after Lee has fielded a couple teams.***
Dec 21, 2015, 12:27 PM
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110%er [7913]
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growing up basketball was my favorite sport
Dec 21, 2015, 10:43 AM
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but Clemson basketball is probably never going to be a consistent winner...doesn't mean we're giving up but I don't see it....we simply as a fanbase don't care that much about it...it's merely something to do after a bowl game and before baseball season gets rolling. I believe we'll have good seasons every once in a while but that's about it.
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Orange Blooded [3573]
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To give me something to do between the natty and 1st pitch***
Dec 21, 2015, 10:44 AM
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Rock Defender [53]
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Over a 5 year cycle
Dec 21, 2015, 10:50 AM
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1) recruit players that can develop into a team
2) Compete for an NIT berth
3) Run in the NIT or sneak into the NCAA
4) Sure Fire NCAA Team
5) Compete for Top 3 in the ACC and advance in the NCAA.
Rinse and repeat
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All-In [44044]
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NCAA Tournament every year.
Dec 21, 2015, 10:56 AM
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That means we are a top 40ish team every year, which should not be unrealistic. I would like to contend for the ACC title every 3-4 years. I realize that some years will be better than others, but a "down" year should mean a lower NCAA seed or, at worst, a high NIT seed.
I get tired of hearing our fans say that "we will never compete with Duke and UNC in basketball." That's a loser mentality and we have to change our thinking. No, we don't have a strong basketball history, but we can change that if we make a commitment to do so.
Currently, we have champagne taste on a beer budget. As I've said before, I would love to see us put significant money toward basketball, including a top level coach. But if we aren't going to do that, then I would not be in a hurry to fire Brownell as I think we could do a lot worse. I do expect at least NIT this year though.
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Rock Defender [53]
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NIT this year????? ###!!!!
Dec 21, 2015, 10:59 AM
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How the hell are we going to make the NIT this year?
Clemson is 7-4. The Tigers' seven wins have come against North Carolina Central, Texas San Antonio, Texas Southern, Rutgers, USC-Upstate, Wofford, and Presbyterian. Clemson's four losses have been to UMASS, Minnesota, Alabama and South Carolina.
North Carolina Central is 3-7. Texas San Antonio is 2-10. Texas Southern is 1-9. Rutgers is 4-7. USC-Upstate is 3-10. Wofford is 3-7. Presbyterian is 5-6. The record of the teams Clemson has defeated this year is 21-56.
North Carolina Central's RPI is 336. Texas San Antonio is 345. Texas Southern is 324. Rutgers is 228. USC-Upstate is 306. Wofford is 248. Presbyterian is 349.
Clemson's best win is over a Rutgers team that is 4-7 and has an RPI of 228.
The Tigers lost to UMASS, who is 6-4 and ranked 179 in the RPI. The loss to Minnesota hurt at the Gophers are 6-5 and ranked 183.
Clemson's RPI is 262. The Tigers are behind Grambling, North Dakota, Eastern Washington, South Carolina State and The Citadel in the RPI.
The only Power Conference school lower than Clemson in the current RPI is Boston College.
Thanks to Mickey Plyler for the stats.
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All-In [44044]
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I don't think it is likely we make the NIT this year.
Dec 21, 2015, 11:22 AM
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My point is that my minimum standard going into this season was the NIT. I am prepared to let the season play out before declaring that it won't happen.
If we don't make the NIT this year, or are not at least very close to it, I think there is a very real possibility that Brownell will be fired after the season. I would be in support of that, provided that we are willing to go get a great coach to continue to show a renewed emphasis on basketball.
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All-In [28802]
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You make it sound like we weren't competitive in our losses
Dec 21, 2015, 1:31 PM
[ in reply to NIT this year????? ###!!!! ] |
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I don't see this as a terrible team just yet, so I'm not really sure why you do other than to have something to complain about.
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Rock Defender [53]
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You judge any team by L and W
Dec 22, 2015, 9:55 AM
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You sound like a coot. "We almost won!" "Wait till next year!" "Go #####!"
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All-In [48078]
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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Agree with all but the part about Brownell.
Dec 21, 2015, 11:28 AM
[ in reply to NCAA Tournament every year. ] |
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He has the charisma of a brussels sprout.
We need a coach that can sell.
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All-In [44044]
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I agree that we need a coach with charisma who can sell.
Dec 21, 2015, 11:39 AM
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He needs to develop the Clemson basketball brand. Right now, our brand is that we are a football school who doesn't care about basketball, with fans who don't care much about it.
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All-TigerNet [14470]
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Re: Agree with all but the part about Brownell.
Dec 21, 2015, 11:45 AM
[ in reply to Agree with all but the part about Brownell. ] |
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YOU EVER BEEN AROUND THE GUY. I HAVE. HE IS VERY FUNNY AND I COULD SEE HIM BEING A REALLY GOOD RECRUITER. WHAT DOES HE HAVE TO SELL. HOPEFULLY THE NEW BUILDING WILL HELP.
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CU Medallion [58411]
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My expectations are similar.
Dec 21, 2015, 11:52 AM
[ in reply to NCAA Tournament every year. ] |
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Any coach we hire should understand these expectations:
Make the NCAA half of the time. Not doing so is not necessarily grounds for termination, but know you are falling short.
Go 3 straight years without making the NCAA, and you are on the hot seat.
No 5 year stretches without advancing past the first round in the NCAA.
I would give any coach one year before implementing these criteria.
Remember, the goal is to be BETTER than we traditionally have been; to improve, and compete at a higher level.
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Oculus Spirit [83116]
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NCAA tournament every other year or at least average that.
Dec 21, 2015, 11:05 AM
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That should be the goal.
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Orange Blooded [2332]
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Re: NCAA tournament every other year or at least average that.
Dec 21, 2015, 5:26 PM
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As I said in a previous post I believe Clemson should finish in the top half of the ACC every year and go to the NIT or NCAA tourney without question. Coach Purnell showed that can be done and should be the norm with decent recruiting. I would like to see us break the streak of no ACC Tournament championship and have a win in Chapel Hill before the next decade has passed! At age 62 I've seen it all in basketball so get the job done. I like many others are tired of excuses.
Go Tigers!
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Rock Defender [58]
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Re: What are your expectations for Clemson basketball?
Dec 21, 2015, 11:06 AM
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I think we need to return to the full court press, offense off of defensive turnover team. Clemson Basketball can't line up and beat teams. What OP had going on is IMHO the best we can hope for. Back then I remember being frustrated because great guard play killed us in tournaments and we had nothing in the half court, but we were annoying to other teams and we won games.
I vote for the gimmick. We should aim to be like Navy and GT are in football. NCAA every 3 years, NIT every year.
-DW
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: What are your expectations for Clemson basketball?
Dec 21, 2015, 11:51 AM
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I expect the NCAAT every year, but if we somehow miss it, then positively the NIT. Making the NCAAT less than 3 times in 4 years is unacceptable and changes need to be made (unless you just hired a new coach - and then the honeymoon period is longer).
Why should a university such as CLEMSON accept anything less? Condoning and supporting mediocrity has become a habit for many fans, but I'm not one of those fans.
Maybe they need to read Dabo's sign "Best is the standard".
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Orange Blooded [2013]
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My REALISTIC expectations
Dec 21, 2015, 11:58 AM
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1. Make the tournament more times than not and secure a NIT bid in the years we don't make it.
2. Finish in the top half of the ACC more times than not (depending on the strength of the league of course).
3. One or two seasons every ten years that result in a top 25 finish or sweet 16 appearance.
Do these things and we'll have a respectable program. I don't think we'll every be a powerhouse but with our resources we shouldn't be a cellar dweller either.
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Orange Blooded [3839]
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To be competitive for a change!***
Dec 21, 2015, 12:00 PM
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All-In [28802]
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We've been very competitive over the last couple years
Dec 21, 2015, 2:53 PM
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The weirdest thing about all these complaints is that people seem to think we've been worse than we actually have been lately. It's like they refuse to see anything good.
That's not to say that it's been all good. Obviously, it's not ok to miss the tournament this many years in a row. We also need to break even overall. But it hasn't been so bad that we should just expect this team to be terrible (they haven't been) or that we should fire the coach right now. People need to temper their criticisms a bit, especially this early in the year.
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Commissioner [903]
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Re: What are your expectations for Clemson basketball?
Jan 17, 2024, 1:12 PM
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All-In [27374]
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If it was all about facilities
Dec 21, 2015, 12:13 PM
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Duke would never win.
Clemson should get the top players from SC. Look what Brice Johnson could do for this team. There have been many others
Recruit the big city playgrounds. There has to be a player there who can succeed as a college student and would be attracted to Clemson. More would follow
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CU Medallion [58411]
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The ONLY thing that Clemson can't offer recruits is
Dec 21, 2015, 12:38 PM
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a winning basketball tradition. Don't get me wrong, that is very important, but Clemson has everything else to offer, and then some. We need to commit to it, build it, promote it, and sell it to basketball recruits. No reason in the world we can't be more competitive and start to BUILD that winning tradition.
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All-In [44044]
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You are wrong about Duke.
Dec 21, 2015, 1:20 PM
[ in reply to If it was all about facilities ] |
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Facilities are much more than the fan experience in the arena where games are played. Duke has outstanding facilities from a player perspective. Locker rooms, practice courts, weight rooms, dining hall, etc. are among the best. Plus, they play in front of a raucous crowd even for non-conference games and play for one of the best basketball coaches in the history of basketball.
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All-In [44044]
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All-In [28802]
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At least: in competition for NCAAT every year, invited to NIT
Dec 21, 2015, 1:26 PM
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I expect to be in the NCAAT every two or three years.
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All-In [44044]
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Why don't you expect NCAAs every year?***
Dec 21, 2015, 1:28 PM
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All-In [28802]
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Because almost no school does that
Dec 21, 2015, 2:48 PM
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My problem with an expectation like that is that it will end up getting good coaches fired and making fans ungrateful for otherwise good teams.
My hope is that if we're at least in contention for the NCAAT every year, we'll end up in it once every 2-3 years. When we have a good run, maybe we'll make it 3-4 years in a row.
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All-In [44044]
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Almost no school makes the NCAA Tournament every year?
Dec 21, 2015, 2:52 PM
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The top 25-30 teams most years are fairly consistent. All we have to do is be in the top 30-35 teams to get in most every year. Is that really a lot to ask if we provide top notch facilities, pay for a good coach, and show up to games and be loud? I don't think so.
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All-In [28802]
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Let's compare to NC State
Dec 21, 2015, 3:01 PM
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They're a team we're competitive with in conference, despite the fact we never have their level of talent. They've made it into the tournament the last four years in a row, but they missed the tournament 6 years in a row before that. Before their 6 year drought, they made the tournament 5 years in a row after they missed the tournament 11 years in a row. This year, they have a record similar to ours.
That just shows how tough it is to make the tournament every year, even with a strong bball tradition and lots of talent.
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All-In [44044]
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I just think it seems tough because we've never consistently done it.
Dec 21, 2015, 3:42 PM
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Being a top 35 basketball program is not unrealistic. We play in the best basketball conference, the ACC. Our fans have supported basketball in the past when we are good. I'm not setting the bar at a Duke level where anything less than a Final Four is a disappointment. Making the NCAAs every year should be the goal, with the hope that we will advance deeper in the tournament from time to time. In the off chance that we are rebuilding and don't make the Big Dance, the NIT should be the bare minimum.
Again, we have to be willing to do what we have never done at Clemson, which is to support basketball in a larger way on a consistent basis.
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CU Medallion [58411]
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Let's do compare . . .
Dec 21, 2015, 4:43 PM
[ in reply to Let's compare to NC State ] |
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Actually, it was a 5 year drought, and that 5 year drought cost Sidney Lowe his job. The preceding 5-year NCAA tourney run, which included a Sweet 16 and 3 addition 2nd round appearances, wasn't good enough to keep them happy and had coach Sendek feeling the heat and packing his bags for AZ State. During the 11-year drought that preceded that, Les Robinson was gone after 5 years of not making the dance, and Sendek, who really did inherit a dumpster fire, got them back to the dance, where they advanced to the second round, in year six.
They expect to win, to win a lot, and win big. If they don't, they make a change. Of course it's very tough to make the dance every year. Performing at a high level IS tough. It's just my humble opinion, but setting the bar too low is much more of a concern than setting it too high at this point.
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Legend [16439]
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my thoughts
Dec 21, 2015, 1:33 PM
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Minimum expectations:
50% win/loss in conference
75% win/loss out of conference
NCAA bid 25%; 50% win/loss in tourney
NIT 2/3 of years we do not make NCAA; 75% win/loss in tourney
ACC regular season or tourney champ once every 5 years
Beat UNC in Dean Dome once every 5 meetings
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Legend [16506]
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I like it!***
Dec 21, 2015, 3:00 PM
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CU Guru [1714]
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Re: What are your expectations for Clemson basketball?
Dec 21, 2015, 3:01 PM
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When did we start playing basketball at CU?
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Replies: 58
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