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All-In [26968]
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I don't know anything about guns...
Aug 5, 2019, 11:26 AM
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I'm sure someone will demonstrate how my ignorance makes my opinion wrong, and that's fine. I'm willing to learn and to have my mind changed.
I'm just using what little brain I have here. I think people should be able to have weapons for self-defense, and for hunting. But if the weapon does not serve the purpose of those two things, I'm open to the government curtailing the possession of those weapons, for the same reason that it's illegal to own grenade launchers. If it doesn't serve any practical purpose, maybe it's in the interest of society to make them illegal. Remember, every law on the books infringes on our freedom. The government decides that some freedoms are worth infringing for the good of society (like our freedom to drive drunk).
The Second Amendment, which I do not want to abolish or change, guarantees our right to have weapons. I do not believe it necessarily means that we can have whatever weapon we want.
I think doing this would make it much more difficult to kill large swaths of people at a time, and therefore make it less frequent.
To be proactive toward responses, here's what I did not say:
Making certain guns illegal will stop people from murdering people
Everyone will obey laws making weapons illegal
It's a gun's fault when someone kills
This is the only solution to fix a problem
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CU Medallion [59982]
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Re: I don't know anything about guns...
Aug 5, 2019, 11:30 AM
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I can agree with this/these statements.
I just wish the federal government would implement better background checks during the purchase of a firearm. Right now, NICS is a joke and if you breathe and have a social security number, you can purchase a firearm. It is EXTREMELY rare that someone gets denied.
They need to fix background checks first.
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All-In [26968]
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Tigermanac, that just seems like common sense to me...
Aug 5, 2019, 11:34 AM
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Why can't this happen? I think it's likely, and unfortunate, that we have many politicians who are supported financially by people who do not want that to happen.
I think this is the will of a large majority of people.
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CU Medallion [59982]
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Re: Tigermanac, that just seems like common sense to me...
Aug 5, 2019, 11:37 AM
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I think its common sense.
To purchase a handgun in NC, you have to go through a more thorough background check by the County Sheriff's office and then go to the office to get your permit. Why couldnt we do that for all guns? Why is it just handguns?
Here in Michigan, I can go right now to a shop and show my DL and walk out with a handgun in about 20 minutes. That is insane too.
There is a lot of common sense being neglected due to gun manufacturers lining pockets.
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All-TigerNet [12233]
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Re: Tigermanac, that just seems like common sense to me...
Aug 5, 2019, 9:42 PM
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I think its common sense.
To purchase a handgun in NC, you have to go through a more thorough background check by the County Sheriff's office and then go to the office to get your permit. Why couldnt we do that for all guns? Why is it just handguns?
Here in Michigan, I can go right now to a shop and show my DL and walk out with a handgun in about 20 minutes. That is insane too.
There is a lot of common sense being neglected due to gun manufacturers lining pockets.
Because the overwhelming majority of crimes committed with guns are from handguns - NOT so-called assault weapons or rifles and to require this kind of permitting for non-handguns is a waste of time.
I live in NC and have my conceal carry. Had to go through an exhaustive background check and class to get it. Good thing about having a CC in NC is that I don't have to go the Sheriff's office and pay for handgun purchase permits and as the CC allows me to purchase any legal firearm in the state without waiting or need of permits. Even so, I still have to go through the Federal NICS check before completing the purchase from a FFL.
Be careful how you use the words "common sense" when it comes to legislators and the laws they make - you would sooner find a unicorn than finding legislators that can make "common sense" laws...
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All-TigerNet [10134]
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Re: I don't know anything about guns...
Aug 5, 2019, 12:07 PM
[ in reply to Re: I don't know anything about guns... ] |
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I can agree with this/these statements.
I just wish the federal government would implement better background checks during the purchase of a firearm. Right now, NICS is a joke and if you breathe and have a social security number, you can purchase a firearm. It is EXTREMELY rare that someone gets denied.
They need to fix background checks first.
It is illegal to kill another person, do you think it would actually stop someone from illegally acquiring a weapon and killing? Please quit acting like guns are the issue.
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Standout [345]
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Re: I don't know anything about guns...
Aug 5, 2019, 1:36 PM
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In the hands of responsible owners there is NOTHING wrong with a firearm of almost any kind. However, it is way too easy to purchase a gun, shotgun or rifle. Whether it is from gun show loop holes, states with near zero requirements of ownership, different rule sets for different firearms, etc.
Acting like we don’t need to do anything is ignoring part of the problem. However, those acting like we should ban everything aren’t being realistic or reasonable.
Which brings me to my personal disappointment with the NRA and its continually driving the narrative that they are out to get your guns. It causes people to be unreasonable or give an inch for fear of the imaginary slippery slope. I don’t know what the actual answer is but I do know there is zero reason not to make it more difficult to own a firearm. It certainly won't solve the problem but it will need to be part of a more comprehensive solution.
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All-In [26968]
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Does it make sense that a firearm should be just about
Aug 5, 2019, 3:05 PM
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the most difficult thing to purchase in the world? Is there anything else that we can think of that that should be more scrutinized and regulated?
Yes, I agree with you that we tend to go to extremes. I think my post was very reasonable and un-extreme. Just common sense kind of stuff, to me.
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Standout [345]
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Re: Does it make sense that a firearm should be just about
Aug 5, 2019, 3:22 PM
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Honestly, I don't know if they should be the most difficult but certainly more difficult. Right now, there are states where it is easier to purchase a fire arm than certain types of cough syrup. There is also debates to be had about people’s personal freedoms vs. the public safety but until we (as a society) get past the extreme baiting and reactions we’ll never be able to talk about it in a reasonable manner.
In terms of other potentially dangerous items, I am sure there are a number of things that should probably be more difficult to purchase we just don't hear about them as much so they aren’t on the public conscience.
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All-TigerNet [12233]
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Re: I don't know anything about guns...
Aug 5, 2019, 10:12 PM
[ in reply to Re: I don't know anything about guns... ] |
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In the hands of responsible owners there is NOTHING wrong with a firearm of almost any kind. However, it is way too easy to purchase a gun, shotgun or rifle. Whether it is from gun show loop holes, states with near zero requirements of ownership, different rule sets for different firearms, etc.
Acting like we don’t need to do anything is ignoring part of the problem. However, those acting like we should ban everything aren’t being realistic or reasonable.
Which brings me to my personal disappointment with the NRA and its continually driving the narrative that they are out to get your guns. It causes people to be unreasonable or give an inch for fear of the imaginary slippery slope. I don’t know what the actual answer is but I do know there is zero reason not to make it more difficult to own a firearm. It certainly won't solve the problem but it will need to be part of a more comprehensive solution.
The "Gun show Loophole" is a myth. All current Federal and State laws apply to gun shows as they do anywhere else. All FFL gun dealers must still perform the same background checks at gun shows IAW the law just as they do in their store. If you attend a gun show you will quickly see that every booth in the show selling firearms is operated by an FFL dealer and follow all Federal and State laws including background checks.
Instead of demonizing gun shows, the discussion should focus on private citizen (i.e. non-gun dealer) individual gun sales. Meaning I have a gun that I want to sell to a friend - Federal Law doesn't place the same requirements on me (as a non-gun dealer private citizen) to sell a single firearm to a friend as it does for a licensed dealer to sell a firearm. The location of the private citizen sale is irrelevant (can be at my house) and has nothing to do with gun shows. Having said that, it is still against Federal law for a private citizen to knowingly sell or provide a gun to a prohibited person as identified in 18 USC § 922(g) & (n).
Anti-gun advocates like to use the term "Gun Show Loophole" to demonize gun shows and make it sound like it is a gathering of people violating/exploiting gun laws - it is not. Gun shows are where law abiding citizens go to learn about firearms and purchase guns legally. The truth of the matter is that the vast majority of criminals don't get guns at gun shows or through any other legal means - they get them from known sources (i.e. family members, criminal gangs, black market) or steal them.
Recommend you read the following:
https://thefederalist.com/2015/10/07/7-gun-control-myths-that-just-wont-die/
https://consumer.findlaw.com/consumer-transactions/private-gun-sale-laws-by-state.html
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Standout [345]
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Re: I don't know anything about guns...
Aug 6, 2019, 7:29 AM
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Maybe I am misusing the term. My understanding is that the loophole is exactly what you described, that selling personal firearms is considered a private sale which makes it excluded from background checks. This was taken advantage of by shady dealers who started doing “personal” sales on the side at shows which is where the term came from.
Broadly speaking I believe we are talking about the same thing my terminology just sucks. It really is unreasonable to expect your average, everyday American to be able to detect if the person they are selling to will be a responsible owner.
Either way, I appreciate the additional information.
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Oculus Spirit [83006]
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I just think it’s stupid that high capacity magazines are
Aug 5, 2019, 11:35 AM
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legal. Of course if illegal, people can buy them on the black market, but shouldn’t we make them jump through those hoops?
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All-In [26968]
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Making something illegal will never stop something from
Aug 5, 2019, 11:36 AM
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happening completely, but it should make it more difficult. And anytime something is more difficult, it will happen less often.
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All-TigerNet [12851]
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like drugs?
Aug 5, 2019, 12:07 PM
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that has worked swimmingly
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Legend [15212]
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Do more people smoke cigs or smoke crack cocaine?
Aug 5, 2019, 2:06 PM
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I don't know the stats.
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All-In [26968]
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I believe many fewer people use illegal drugs
Aug 5, 2019, 2:49 PM
[ in reply to like drugs? ] |
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Than would use them if they were legal. Do you disagree?
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All-In [40344]
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yeah, the whole getting locked up thing definitely
Aug 5, 2019, 6:19 PM
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Plays a role for me.
Also, random drug tests helps a lot of people stay out of the game.
I also know very successful and hard working people who partake and seem to be just fine.
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Oculus Spirit [83006]
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Made it much more difficult than going into
Aug 5, 2019, 3:28 PM
[ in reply to like drugs? ] |
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a store and buying it. I’ve lived in Naples 22 years and I’ve had at least 3 weed connections move away, one commit suicide, and one go into rehab.
I don’t have one at the present.
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Oculus Spirit [80998]
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Thats going to make your music listening choices
Aug 5, 2019, 3:34 PM
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a LOT more difficult
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Oculus Spirit [83006]
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Been listening to a lot of GnR.***
Aug 5, 2019, 5:08 PM
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All-TigerNet [12233]
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Re: I just think it’s stupid that high capacity magazines are
Aug 5, 2019, 11:03 PM
[ in reply to I just think it’s stupid that high capacity magazines are ] |
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So tell me what you consider "high capacity"? 5 rounds, 10 rounds, 20 rounds, 30 rounds??? What you consider high capacity and I consider high capacity may be two different things...
Once again people get wrapped around the instrument of the massacre and not the individual committing the atrocity. Why don't we focus on the real problem - there are people roaming the streets with real mental disorders in which murdering 22 people in an indiscriminate manner is OK and of no consequence to them.
The truth of the matter is that a person that has the mental and moral capability to act out and murder 22 innocent people will find a way to act on their impulse with or without a gun. This guy could have just as well gotten in a pickup truck and plowed over a crowd of folks killing them as they walked around the Walmart parking lot. If so, do you think these idiot lawmakers would be looking to ban pickup trucks?
The point being we continually waste time discussing the "tool" of the massacre without ever focusing on the perpetrator and the mental condition of people in our society that are capable of such murder. No one really wants to take a hard look at this because it might point back to things the politicians don't want to touch with a 10 foot pole. The need for bringing back mental institutions for one. Others include the breakdown of the family unit (i.e. fatherless homes), a general lack of morality that comes from today's "anything goes" value system, societies general lack of individual responsibility/accountability, and the glorification of violence in just about every aspect of our media/entertainment to name a few.
No, politicians would rather pretend that they are doing something by passing some BS legislation that will not stop crazy people from killing innocence. Their time would better be spent asking: "Is there a common thread among these mental whack jobs and how can they be identified and institutionalized before they hurt someone?" But no - the media and politicians will continue to push a failed gun control agenda pretending that some magic piece of legislation will all of a sudden stop some mentally deranged person intent on murdering innocence from carrying out their crime.
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All-In [34533]
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we should start by making murder illegal***
Aug 5, 2019, 11:37 AM
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All-In [26968]
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The blood of millions of unborn children
Aug 5, 2019, 11:39 AM
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every year dwarfs that of deaths by firearm.
That doesn't mean, of course, we shouldn't take steps to eliminate both.
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All-In [34533]
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I concur***
Aug 5, 2019, 11:39 AM
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CU Medallion [59982]
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Re: The blood of millions of unborn children
Aug 5, 2019, 11:43 AM
[ in reply to The blood of millions of unborn children ] |
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Isnt the NRA to the Left as Planned Parenthood is to the right?
NRA to the left - no education around firearms, no public responsibility around guns,no reason to exist, they just kill people. Just lots of money being shoveled to politicians while people die.
Planned Parenthood to the right - no education around sex, no true healthcare, just abortion, no reason to exist. Just lining the pockets of politicians while people die.
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Heisman Winner [137803]
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Are you talking about how the left and right view
Aug 5, 2019, 12:26 PM
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the NRA and PP? Because the majority of what PP does is healthcare, and even sex ed is a higher spend for them than abortion $ (I think, but haven't fact-checked that). The NRA is almost a polar opposite of what it was 60-80 years ago. They used to be fully on board with gun control, responsibility, and education. Now, they just want every single person to be armed, and appear to have no concern whatsoever about the mental or physical capabilities of the people they're arming.
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Oculus Spirit [79400]
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Who is the NRA arming?***
Aug 5, 2019, 1:06 PM
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Heisman Winner [137803]
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Obviously, I don't mean the NRA is actually handing guns
Aug 5, 2019, 1:15 PM
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to people. You know that. You also know that their lobbying effort is pretty clearly succeeding in putting guns into the hands of people that have no business having guns.
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Oculus Spirit [79400]
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No, I don't know that. And I don't think it's fair to say
Aug 5, 2019, 1:17 PM
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"They aren't on board with education and responsibility", either. What have they lobbied against that would have prevented any of these shootings?
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Heisman Winner [137803]
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The NRA is adamantly opposed to universal background checks.
Aug 5, 2019, 1:36 PM
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So some 40-50% of aftermarket gun sales (private party-to-party sellers, for example), are completely excluded of background checks. No criminal or mental health checks for these perfectly legal sales. Here's where we cue the "gun registry is the first step towards confiscation!" whistles.
It's probably just easier to admit that a good portion of the country prescribes an acceptable level of gun deaths, including children, to keep their rights to unchecked, unrecorded, unmonitored firearms.
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CU Medallion [59982]
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Re: The NRA is adamantly opposed to universal background checks.
Aug 5, 2019, 1:41 PM
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NRA cant make legislation. So you need to vote out these NRA sympathizers and get the ones in that have your way of thinking. The power is in the peoples hands and with the Dems all in Detroit last week (one of the most dangerous, if not the most dangerous in the Country) and not any mention of gun laws, it shows that they are in the business of fear mongering in the moment, not really dedicated to true legislation.
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Heisman Winner [137803]
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Lobbyists can't make legislation.
Aug 5, 2019, 1:52 PM
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Isn't it odd how almost 100% of legislation is bought and paid for by lobbyists though?
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Oculus Spirit [79400]
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I don't recall too many instances where the guns
Aug 5, 2019, 2:28 PM
[ in reply to The NRA is adamantly opposed to universal background checks. ] |
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used in a shooting were purchased via private party sale with no background check. That's something that's pretty unenforceable, anyway.
Registration coupled with red flag laws is absolutely a step toward confiscation. I again point to New Zealand as an example, they were locking people up for merely sharing the manifesto and video online. They're experiencing mass non compliance with new regulations, but they can't really do much about it because there's no registry.
Freedom is scary sometimes, I'd rather not lose my rights just so some people can assuage their feels.
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Heisman Winner [137803]
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So we'll put you down in the
Aug 5, 2019, 2:37 PM
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"Comfortable with the current number of lives lost in mass shootings as long as laws and rules regarding guns don't change" category. Unfortunately, I imagine we'll have the opportunity to see if you have a line further down the road where you might recategorize yourself.
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Oculus Spirit [79400]
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And we'll put you down in the
Aug 5, 2019, 2:44 PM
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"Take my rights away so I can have the illusion of being safer" category. I mean, it's not like we haven't tried an assault weapons ban before and found that it made no impact.
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Heisman Winner [137803]
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Yep. There's nothing that can be done. It's a hopeless
Aug 5, 2019, 2:59 PM
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situation. Not even worth discussing, honestly.
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CU Medallion [59982]
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Re: Yep. There's nothing that can be done. It's a hopeless
Aug 5, 2019, 3:31 PM
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I am a pro gun, pro gun rights person......but I have my limits as to where I stand and where I think we should be on the situation. There are plenty of win/wins for both sides, but no one is willing to talk to each other.
Mental Health - can be addressed
AR-15 style weapons - can be addressed
Engaging children with lack of parents - can be addressed
Making background checks mandatory and more thorough - can be addressed
Its nothing but dangerous to blame Trump or one group of people. This is an occurence that happens on both sides of the aisle. Heck the one guy was anti-right affiliated. So it spans all kinds of generations, ideologues.
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Heisman Winner [137803]
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Agree with every bit of this.
Aug 5, 2019, 3:57 PM
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Somebody, somewhere in a position of power, has to start a serious dialogue on this. I don't care what side of the aisle they’re on. It’s going to get worse as long as half the country doesn’t think there’s a problem with the sheer number and availability of firearms in the US.
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Oculus Spirit [81628]
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CU Medallion [54758]
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19B and scokkerkrzy agreeing with tigerwtrskimanac?
Aug 5, 2019, 5:26 PM
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WELCOME TO BIZZARO TIGERNET
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All-In [48814]
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But it happens more on one side than the other
Aug 5, 2019, 4:04 PM
[ in reply to Re: Yep. There's nothing that can be done. It's a hopeless ] |
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and the figurehead of that side is the one going to rallies and making jokes when people yell "shoot them" when he asks what can be done about illegals. It is not at all dangerous to call his ### out about his rhetoric and the kind of #### he puts up with at his rallies in the name of keeping the cheers coming.
As far as everything else you said, I agree.
Hell, I own firearms and I don't want anyone to take them away either.
Message was edited by: FordPrefect®
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Legend [15492]
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Re: Yep. There's nothing that can be done. It's a hopeless
Aug 5, 2019, 6:20 PM
[ in reply to Re: Yep. There's nothing that can be done. It's a hopeless ] |
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I am a pro gun, pro gun rights person......but I have my limits as to where I stand and where I think we should be on the situation. There are plenty of win/wins for both sides, but no one is willing to talk to each other.
Mental Health - can be addressed
AR-15 style weapons - can be addressed
Engaging children with lack of parents - can be addressed
Making background checks mandatory and more thorough - can be addressed
Its nothing but dangerous to blame Trump or one group of people. This is an occurence that happens on both sides of the aisle. Heck the one guy was anti-right affiliated. So it spans all kinds of generations, ideologues.
I buy that, well said.
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Legend [15492]
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Re: Who is the NRA arming?***
Aug 5, 2019, 3:17 PM
[ in reply to Who is the NRA arming?*** ] |
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That is a fair question and the answer is questionable. They spend millions in marketing so I'm sure they sell some guns to some.
But the over riding point isn't who they arm, but that they pay off politicians. Universal background checks are a 90-10 issue. Among gun owners its and 80-20 issue. But politicians want to be re elected so they take the NRA money and don't respond to the majority of Americans.
I've hunted and owned guns all my life. I was raised that way. I was taught gun safety at a very early age. Most of my friends are hunters as well and they are among the most strident supporters of keeping guns out of the hands of crazies as well as right and left wing extremists.
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Oculus Spirit [83006]
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All-In [34533]
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go f#kk yourself, you piece of dog sh$t***
Aug 5, 2019, 11:48 AM
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Oculus Spirit [83006]
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You making me hard.***
Aug 5, 2019, 11:53 AM
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Heisman Winner [105469]
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Heisman Winner [137803]
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Heisman Winner [111417]
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neither do I...
Aug 5, 2019, 11:37 AM
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Just don't use the word clip, it will trigger a lot of folk
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All-TigerNet [12851]
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And that is one of the problems
Aug 5, 2019, 12:06 PM
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the demonization of guns in society is a problem
I grew up with guns. I rode the school bus with guns. I put my shotgun in my principals office on MANY occasions. Once I drove to school, we hunted on the way to school and between school and football practice. Guns were no big deal.
But I was not even as exposed as my dad.
He was on a rifle team when he was in school. He eventually made it to Clemson and was on the AFROTC rifle team and the Clemson Rifle team. Those were all gone by the time I got through school.
We need education about guns, not further demonization.
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Heisman Winner [105469]
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Ahhh, yes. Education about guns would SURELY prevent
Aug 5, 2019, 12:26 PM
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these types of tragedies. Those people had no idea that the guns they were using on other people could actually KILL them. If they were more educated on the guns, they would have certainly chosen something else to do that day.
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All-In [26968]
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I surely don't intend to demonize them,
Aug 5, 2019, 2:50 PM
[ in reply to And that is one of the problems ] |
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in case you were referring to my post, which you may not have been.
My post treated guns in a very practical way. No demonization at all. A gun is a hunk of metal.
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Oculus Spirit [97676]
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My deer rifle and my AR-15 work exactly the same way.
Aug 5, 2019, 12:21 PM
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In fact, my deer rifle has a higher caliber bullet. All I need is a 20-round magazine for it and I can shoot THROUGH a crowd of people. Or better yet a shotgun. Both are far more deadly than an AR-15.
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Standout [345]
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Re: My deer rifle and my AR-15 work exactly the same way.
Aug 5, 2019, 1:19 PM
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In the hands of someone who knows what they were doing that may be the case but in many (not all) of these shootings the actual shooter are people who just picked up the weapons and don't have a ton of time on them. Hence why they go for the ones with more rounds and speed.
If someone who knew what they were going with these weapons went on a shooting spree at one of these "soft" targets a WHOLE lot more people would be dead.
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Oculus Spirit [97676]
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Standout [345]
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Re: Good thing no one can get one of these....
Aug 5, 2019, 3:33 PM
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My point wasn't that there aren't potentially more dangerous options these people could pursue it was that many of these shooters do not possess the skill to do as much damage without the aid of semi-auto or automatic weapons. They rely on what they think is the easy spray option that will take out the most people.
Make those weapons much harder to get and with some other common-sense changes we can all agree on (or mostly agree on) it will make it that much more difficult to inflect the amount of pain and suffering these people inflict.
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Oculus Spirit [97676]
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Well, a pressure cooker can maim or kill just as easily
Aug 5, 2019, 3:41 PM
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5 deaths and 264 injured. I think some common sense measures we can take to make pressure cookers harder to obtain would help us all.
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CU Medallion [59982]
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Re: Well, a pressure cooker can maim or kill just as easily
Aug 5, 2019, 3:44 PM
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see, this kind of rhetoric, while I get your point, does ZERO good. Plus, it makes us all look dumb. These kinds of comments shouldnt even be in the conversation. Just stop.
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Oculus Spirit [83006]
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Oculus Spirit [93609]
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Exactly why does the constitution provide for the....
Aug 5, 2019, 1:20 PM
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right to bear arms?
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Oculus Spirit [81628]
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I'd love to see that AR-15 people are so desperately clingin
Aug 5, 2019, 2:05 PM
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to hold on to match up against a National Guard unit.
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Oculus Spirit [81628]
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Oculus Spirit [81628]
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I love it so much Tigernet decided to double post it!***
Aug 5, 2019, 2:06 PM
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Legend [18003]
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The Dayton shooter killed 9 and wounded 27 in 30 seconds
Aug 5, 2019, 2:50 PM
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Whatever allowed him to be able to do that much damage in that short amount of time should be heavily looked at.
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110%er [6101]
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Re: I don't know anything about guns...
Aug 5, 2019, 8:21 PM
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21 people died today texting while driving.
188 people died today from overdosing fentayl that was supplied by China and crossed our wide open southern border.
23 veterans committed suicide today.
No big TV human interest story done on any of these tragedies.
No narrative rolled out across the main stream cable media with 24hr coverage for a week.
No interviews with crying mothers and saddened news hosts.
Why? Because they can’t politicize it. Disgusting.
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Legend [15492]
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Re: I don't know anything about guns...
Aug 5, 2019, 8:40 PM
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You seem to have a problem with everything but the problem.
American's have a legitimate fear of being gunned down in the street. This in the land of the free. That's a real problem Memphis. Do people use it as a political football, sure. But it's still a real problem.
I'm not sure what the answer is, and those other issues are very important. But this cannot be a free country when your family can be gunned down before you're eyes for being in J.C. Penney at the wrong time.
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Hall of Famer [22935]
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Those folks were all spread across the country
Aug 5, 2019, 11:53 PM
[ in reply to Re: I don't know anything about guns... ] |
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If all those stats happened in one place within a short time period, then I'm sure it would be addressed and fixed.
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