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The second ever example in history of questionable journalism
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The second ever example in history of questionable journalism


Jan 20, 2019, 7:11 PM

I hope this doesn’t become a trend. Luckily it was only the NYT and the Washington Post, not serious news outlets.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/19/us/covington-catholic-high-school-nathan-phillips.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/01/20/it-was-getting-ugly-native-american-drummer-speaks-maga-hat-wearing-teens-who-surrounded-him/?utm_term=.72d20be32b56

Buuuut apparently there are numerous videos showing that Native American gentlemen approached the students, who did nothing and said nothing to encourage him to do so or provoke him when he did. There is no documented evidence of them saying anything about a wall (unless I missed it?).

http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=59696&fbclid=IwAR1evQVg64I-tLV4BONg_3V4-oYPX2e9ubHIK9T2bt1YCifO_GVa19Oe0Wg

And nope, I don’t know this site either...maybe they fabricated the video and the subsequent comments on Twitter?

But if not...wow.

I did not see in the extensive coverage from these two tabloids (WaPo and NYT) that they attempted to talk to the students for their side of the story? Did they get verified comments from other eye witnesses that weren’t tied to an involved cause? I might have missed it.

I haven’t seen the retractions of the stories by either publication, but they might be difficult to find on the mobile app and I’m not near a computer. Or maybe they are sticking with their version and they have more facts than I do?

I don’t know...I’m on my phone, so it’s hard to search this stuff...a lot of people say these are serious, unbiased publications of journalistic integrity, and not Anti-Trump outlets that would trip over themselves to publish a story of white male teenagers with MAGA hats attacking an elderly Native American war vet. To heck with the research. To heck with what this kind of story can do to a kid and his family, and the school, in this day and age.

Am I misreading this? What am I missing? It LOOKS like complete biased garbage, irresponsible “journalism”, but maybe someone here can shed some light?

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null


Re: The second ever example in history of questionable journalism


Jan 20, 2019, 7:49 PM

Are you kidding? Do you really not understand what you see? Nathan Phillips is a Vietnam War Vet and native American who was confronted by some Catholic High School kids who thought it was cool to stare him down? He stepped in between the teenagers and the older black people who were protesting and your grand thought is that it is all some made up tabloid fodder by the NYTimes and WashPost???

Do you realize how many Pulitzer prizes those 2 papers have won? Or have we all ground ourselves down to only belieiving what we want to believe?

If the kid were my son I's have spanked his ### for disrespecting his elder and a veteran.

DID you just check your brain at the last election? geeeeeez

"Prior to what is seen on the now-viral video, Phillips said he was in D.C. attending a Native American rally. Near the end of rally, he said he tried to keep the peace between a group of mostly white students attending a March for Life event and a gathering of about four black members of a religious group known as the Black Hebrew Israelites.

Phillips, a former Marine, said the incident started as a group of Catholic students from Kentucky were observing the Black Israelites talk, and started to get upset at their speeches. The Catholic group then got bigger and bigger, with more than 100 assembled at one point, he said."

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2019/01/20/native-american-leader-nathan-phillips-recounts-incident-video/2630256002/?utm_source=feedblitz&utm_medium=FeedBlitzRss&utm_campaign=indystar/todaystopstories

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Re: The second ever example in history of questionable journalism


Jan 20, 2019, 9:10 PM

Everyone is pulling back on this, but you. Shows you where the problem lies.

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No.. He'll just forget this thread exists and move on.***


Jan 21, 2019, 12:56 PM



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GO TIGERS!!


Whoa. Did you read anything about the incident besides the two articles


Jan 20, 2019, 10:21 PM [ in reply to Re: The second ever example in history of questionable journalism ]

I linked from the WaPo and NYT?

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null


To be fair...


Jan 21, 2019, 10:35 AM [ in reply to Re: The second ever example in history of questionable journalism ]

The black protestors were the clear instigators. The boys aren't the evil kids everyone's making them out to be.

But yes, calling the Wash Post or NY Times tabloids is absurd. They're reporting the full narratives now.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


Re: The second ever example in history of questionable journalism


Jan 21, 2019, 10:40 AM [ in reply to Re: The second ever example in history of questionable journalism ]

You spanked your children before getting the full story?

????

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You should definitely watch the entire video.


Jan 21, 2019, 12:43 PM [ in reply to Re: The second ever example in history of questionable journalism ]

It doesn't exactly fit into your agenda box though.

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GO TIGERS!!


The Native American Vietnam Vet said he put himself


Jan 21, 2019, 1:31 PM [ in reply to Re: The second ever example in history of questionable journalism ]

in a dangerous situation. It was self-inflicted.*

























































*I can link a dictionary definition if that word is too big for you.

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Re: The second ever example in history of questionable journalism


Jan 21, 2019, 3:15 PM [ in reply to Re: The second ever example in history of questionable journalism ]

He’s only 1\1024th indian. Probably ElizabethWarrens brother.

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Re: The second ever example in history of questionable journalism


Jan 21, 2019, 6:33 PM [ in reply to Re: The second ever example in history of questionable journalism ]

Felix2 said:

Nathan Phillips is a Vietnam War Vet and native American



Dude - you might not want to hitch your wagon to this Vietnam War Vet narrative that is out there. According to the news accounts, Mr. Phillips is 64 years old and is a Marine Vietnam vet. I smell a pile of horse poop here - either he is older than 64 or the Vietnam vet line is highly unlikely and probably not true.

The largest contingent of Marine combat units (3rd Marine Division) had departed Vietnam by November, 1969. All other Marines with the exception of a few advisors had departed Vietnam by June 1971.

Assuming Mr. Phillips graduated high school in either 1971 (age 17) or 1972 (age 18), it would have been an extremely tight timeline to have him in the country of Vietnam during the War. In 1969 when the bulk of Marine combat units departed Vietnam Mr. Phillips would have been 15 years old - too young to have been in Vietnam. In 1971 when practically all Marines had departed Vietnam, Mr. Phillips would have been 17 years old - once again too young to have graduated high school, gone through Marine boot/specialty training and spent any time in Vietnam.

Mr. Phillips may have served in the Marines, but I seriously doubt he was in Vietnam. As we are learning Mr. Phillips has been loose with the truth in other instances, it would not surprise me to find out he is no combat vet. With the publicity surrounding his latest stunt, I imagine there are some Marine vets that will dig into his military records a bit and we will know soon enough. If there is one thing on this planet that pisses a combat vet off, is someone claiming to be a combat vet that ain't...

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Wow. Thanks for sharing this.


Jan 20, 2019, 10:50 PM

The below video in particular really creates a different impression than the NY Times presented.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIG5ZB0fw1k

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Yes, some key points, to me...


Jan 20, 2019, 11:54 PM

From the WaPo article:

“In an interview Saturday, Phillips, 64, said he felt threatened by the teens and that they swarmed around him as he and other activists were wrapping up the march and preparing to leave.“

Blatant mischaracterization of what happened, as video evidence shows the Native American approaches the students.

From the NYT article:
Mr. Phillips told The Post. “I started going that way, and that guy in the hat stood in my way and we were at an impasse. He just blocked my way and wouldn’t allow me to retreat.”

First off, I don’t see how the man was prevented from “retreating”, but I also would like to understand how just standing in one place is an aggressive move. Oh...wait...

"Why I should go around him?" he asked. "I'm just thinking of 500 years of genocide in this country, what your people have done. You don't even see me as a human being."

(https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-native-american-maga-hat-kentucky-20190120-story.html)

Ah...when you walk somewhere, people should get out of your way. Who, exactly, is entitled here?

This is a story about 1) an elderly Native American veteran who decided to walk into a bunch of teenagers, get right in one of their faces and beat a drum while singing, and become indignant about the kid not stepping aside for him (at no point does it appear that he says “excuse me” but in fact appears quite content to sing in the kid’s face) and then completely misrepresenting the story to the eager press, 2) a group of Hebrew Israelites (for goodness sake just google them) who are so filled with hate and misguidance that when I saw a group “preaching” in Charlotte about how black women need to obey their men and get in the kitchen, it’s hard for me as a middle aged man not to laugh at them, let alone a bunch of teenagers as the Hebrew Israelites call their black classmate the n-word, and 3) a bunch of white conservative high school boys who were probably a bit boisterous and incredulous in response to the Hebrew Israelites’ comments while they waited for the bus.

And who is the villain, according to the media? Who should be held to the highest standard, and who does not deserve the benefit of the doubt, or even an opportunity to hear their side of the story? Who doesn’t even warrant watching the full video? Shockingly, it’s the young white male conservatives.

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null


Re: Yes, some key points, to me...


Jan 21, 2019, 9:44 AM

When in doubt, it's the white males who are the real victims. Happy MLK day Swarley.

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Excellent. So, let me see if I understand the true meaning of MLK Jr Day


Jan 21, 2019, 12:24 PM

in your mind.

“Okay, so there was an encounter between a Native American and a bunch of young white men. I have an obviously-small clip of video which shows the white man smirking at the Native American. Let me flesh this out with the native american’s comments. Okay! Good to go! Yes yes yes, there are numerous videos being taken in the video...no, I didn’t check with the kids...no, I don’t hear any evidence of the kids saying what the Native American said they said...but c’mon, Swarley. It’s MLK Jr day. It’s a narrative that we think he would have liked, and ruining the lives of some white teenagers from Kentucky is nothing to a big-time reporter from NYC or Washington. They’re Trump supporters...barely human as it is. I am SURE this is what MLK Jr meant to include in his ‘I have a Dream’ speech if he hadn’t had to edit it for time.”

Got it! Sorry to miss the spirit of the season!

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null


Re: Wow. Thanks for sharing this.


Jan 22, 2019, 9:10 PM [ in reply to Wow. Thanks for sharing this. ]

seems like they are having fun, and at our nation capital.

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Well, let's pump the brakes on the media hate in this story.


Jan 21, 2019, 10:34 AM

All the media outlets now are addressing the full story, especially USA Today, but also Wash Post and NY Times. They originally were going with only what they had, and that was the small snippit of video, which of course, looks pretty bad.

Now that full video has emerged, we can see the boys weren't the sinister beings that they were originally made out to be. Should the media have waited a little longer? Perhaps, but this video had already hit the Internet and was already a story. So you have to explore it. Hell, don't blame the press for this. Blame the clowns who took the misleading video and posted it.

Below, I've linked the full video. The real villains in this are the "Israelites" who are shouting derogatory and hateful words at those boys and anyone else within earshot. They were looking for a fight.

Where the failure occurs with the boys rests on the shoulders of their adult chaperones who didn't lead them away. The boys reacted in an expected fashion: they gathered around and were hoping for an altercation. If you don't believe that, you've forgotten what it's like to be a teenage boy. The adults who oversaw them should have stopped this.

And then, the Native American man steps in to quell the situation. And that's all we were initially shown.

So the real imbeciles in this story aren't really the boys but the adults who poked at them or allowed them to be poked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-pFMZaw5f0&fbclid=IwAR2rlxJtgy5JuDQNnN-5WIXsE5kGLh4xDC2AgpIuLlnBu13eH7gy-sbOoTM&app=desktop

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


In a day where a video from a cell phone


Jan 21, 2019, 10:50 AM

Can be seen by millions of people around the world in a matter of hours, immediate reaction and opinion is just what is going to happen. Is it always right? No, but to tell people to wait for context is like standing in front of a tidal wave.

The best we can do is probably just try to take things less seriously. Like, in this situation, something happened, and there was a video, and then there was another video, and people are switching opinions. It doesn't have to mean that "journalism is dead" or the "media is rigged." It's just how things work with the internet now.

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So that’s it, Cata and Prod? My expectations of these publications are


Jan 21, 2019, 12:32 PM

unreasonable? They didn’t have all the facts yet, and I can’t expect them to try to get them when they could be getting clicks with a potentially life-ruining story as is? I mean, they COULD, I guess, have written a story saying there was an altercation between some protestors, right? Buuuut, that doesn’t get the clicks. That’s barely even a story. We NEED a villain, and we can’t expect journalists to make another phone call or wait to hear all the facts before they create a villain? ESPECIALLY a villain in a red ball cap.

That’s cool. I guess we just have different opinions of what constitutes Journalism. Hard to believe that four-year degrees are offered in a discipline that amounts to little more than creative writing, but maybe I’m expecting too much.

I know, personally, were I the author of those article and anything happened to those students as a result of my joke of an initial story, I would hold myself responsible. I guess that’s why I could never be a journalist. “Accountability.”

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null


I'm not saying it's right, or that you should lower your


Jan 21, 2019, 12:47 PM

expectations. I'm just being fatalistic, I guess. This is reality now. And I don't see any way it changes to go the other way. In fact, I'd expect it'd keep trending toward immediacy, because our access to information is still trending that way.

It's up to every individual to decide what to do with this information. Just because every news outlet jumps on it without context, doesn't mean that I have to make a judgment. We'll just be the minority.

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For the record, I haven't watched any of the videos


Jan 21, 2019, 12:50 PM

being discussed in this. It does not register very high on my "does it matter" scale.

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The only reason it registers for me in this case


Jan 21, 2019, 12:54 PM

Is that it's a gross injustice to these kids if you don't see the videos in context. And in today's climate they'll be attacked mercilessly on social media or worse for a manufactured story bc they happened to be found guilty of being white with a "MAGA" hat on.

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GO TIGERS!!


Yes, that is sad. I was aware of the reaction...


Jan 21, 2019, 12:57 PM

because it was on my Twitter and Facebook feeds a lot. Also, an older gentleman at church yesterday morning randomly said something to me about how terrible that kid was acting toward that Indian man, and about how his parents should have spanked him more as a child.

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That's the bigger issue.......


Jan 21, 2019, 12:57 PM [ in reply to The only reason it registers for me in this case ]

these extremists (I guess you aren't really an extremist if your position has moved into the mainstream) who claim to be anti-fascist, have now decided that if you support a candidate or even wear a red hat, are not in line with their ideas of proper ideology, and must be dealt with by any means necessary, including physical violence.

It seems, well, fascist. We are regressing as a society due to "progressives". It's ironic.

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And sadly predictable.


Jan 21, 2019, 1:01 PM

If it pushes the agenda forward the truth doesn't matter to these people. Hell add to it that the kids at one point were DEFENDING homosexuals to the aggressors.

That's not worthy of report though.. Gotta get the "poor native american vet". Who just happens to be a very well known left wing activist (not that there's anything wrong with that).. But at least understand everything in context.

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GO TIGERS!!


Let me spell this out to you.


Jan 21, 2019, 2:15 PM

Every major media source is now reporting the correct narrative. USA Today, the widest circulated paper in the United States, has run a story that clarifies how it all went down.

Enough with the hyperbolic, made-up media agendas. Do some Googling next time.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


All of this "correct narrative" stuff should have been


Jan 21, 2019, 3:04 PM

done before the original story was reported.

Let me spell it out for you - It wouldn't have been a story AT ALL if the kid wasn't wearing that MAGA cap. That's point of this that you are missing...

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You don't know that.


Jan 21, 2019, 3:18 PM

And as Prod mentioned, this is unfortunately the way it works now: Video that shows part of a story is slapped on the Internet. Blame that person before you blame the press. They picked up what they saw, and as facts have come in, reported them.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


Bruh, you of all people take issue with that stance?


Jan 21, 2019, 3:30 PM

I mean, yeah, he doesn't know that, but you use "mind-reading" and "I know it would have gone down this way if it had been reversed---you can disagree but you're wrong" arguments all the time.

And no, this isn't how the media worked in days gone by. You didn't formulate a story from one side of the account and a single photo, without contacting the other side for their stance. Being right was more important than being first.

I agree with you that the times is not a tabloid, but the WaPo is a shadow of it's former self. I delved in the speech and communications major for a short while at CU because I was interested, and I wouldn't have passed EB-H's journalism 101 class if I had used the loaded language in my class articles that the WaPo regularly uses in non-editorial stories.

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Re: Bruh, you of all people take issue with that stance?


Jan 21, 2019, 4:00 PM

Fair enough, but which given the nature of teenage boys in a crowd, this had the makings of a disaster before someone stepped between them. Again, the main fault lies on the adults in this situation. It's like throwing rocks at a hornet's nest, and it won't do much to fault the hornets if they react.

And no, this isn't how the media worked in days gone by. You didn't formulate a story from one side of the account and a single photo, without contacting the other side for their stance. Being right was more important than being first.

I concur, but with how fast a video can go viral, it's now become the nature of the beast. At least they're reporting the correct narrative now.

I agree with you that the times is not a tabloid, but the WaPo is a shadow of it's former self. I delved in the speech and communications major for a short while at CU because I was interested, and I wouldn't have passed EB-H's journalism 101 class if I had used the loaded language in my class articles that the WaPo regularly uses in non-editorial stories.

The WaPo has always been a pretty bold publication, and maybe moreso now. I don't agree with how they approach everything, but I'm also seeing this as a symptom of bigger problems, and that's the dwindling of print news. Newspapers are stretching now to keep readers.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


No - blame the press for picking up some random video


Jan 21, 2019, 3:32 PM [ in reply to You don't know that. ]

off of the Internet and putting some 17-year-old kid's face on the front page of their websites before they themselves even know the full story.

And - I'll say it again - and you know this to be true - they wouldn't have if the kid was wearing a University of Kentucky cap.

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I mean...we don’t disagree. What you’re saying is that we


Jan 21, 2019, 5:11 PM [ in reply to I'm not saying it's right, or that you should lower your ]

Can’t believe any news publication because of poor work and biases. That is the sad reality. Once newspapers like the NYT stop being a place of instant credibility, it’s over. Now we have a president who can claim they have agendas and tell lies. Again, why does that story resonate? Because of stories like this.

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null


Well, you fail in two areas.


Jan 21, 2019, 2:05 PM [ in reply to So that’s it, Cata and Prod? My expectations of these publications are ]

One, you called Wash Post and NY Times tabloids, which is pretty much grounds for immediate dismissal of your argument. That's an absurd hyperbole.

The next is that you also failed to do your due diligence. The media was only given a small clip of the incident and reported it as what was seen along with reactions. Since the full video and story has come out, these same media sources you criticize have worked to explain and report the full truth. You, in fact, failed to do your research (as you admit) to see if they did this.

I guess we just have different opinions of what constitutes Journalism. Hard to believe that four-year degrees are offered in a discipline that amounts to little more than creative writing, but maybe I’m expecting too much.

This also shows your complete ignorance of the profession and the major, and you're guilty of making the same false assumptions you claim the media make. I'm happy to prove this to you if you would like.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


Okay, let’s see...


Jan 21, 2019, 5:08 PM

On the tabloid comment...yes, hyperbole...thanks for pointing that out. The NYT and WaPo are not tabloids. However, I will happily stand by my opinion that these articles were no better than tabloid quality.

MY Due diligence? Give me a break. Now it’s MY fault that they reported outright lies and painted these kids as villains? And again...not that they didn’t show the whole video...they just assumed the one side was completely correct and vilified the kids. You are saying the media is doing their job because once the full videos hit the internet and everyone could see their original take was a lie, they updated their story? Pathetic.

I’m not the one who didn’t do my due diligence...the people who were threatening to “Sox” these kids are. I saw the story and shrugged it off because I assume stories like that have more detail that the NYT neglects to include. I just didn’t think they would be that willfully negligent.

As for your offer to educate me on journalism as a major and a profession, a thousand times, yes. I accept your generous offer. Please explain it all to my ignorant self. Did you major in journalism?

By the way, on your last comment about how I am guilty of what I accuse them of...fantastic. First, I disagree. Second, I’m a guy on a message board that a hundred people might see. They are professional journalists for two of the most prestigious news publications in the world. Same same, I know. Third...let’s hold me to the same standard you hold them. Those two journalists willfully neglected to research the most basic facts of this situation in a deliberate attempt to villify some white male Trump supporters, simply to advance their own political agendas? Is that true? False? I don’t know. But I can only deal in what I know at this point. If indisputable video evidence comes out that they were doing their objective job to the best of their ability and just made an honest mistake, I’ll be sure to update my opinion. Hey, look, I’m a great Journalist!

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null


Rein in the butthurt.


Jan 22, 2019, 2:16 PM

Simply put, you didn't follow up with your own research and admitted as much.

But yes, I graduated with a masters from one of the top 10 journalism schools in the nation (Clemson didn't offer that as a major so I didn't major in that). I'm not longer in the profession but I worked as a professional. The pay sucked and I got tired of reporting on murders and little kids dying, so I left.

I don't really want to swing degrees around on here like some folks do but since you asked, there it is.

Let me know what you want me to teach you about it. Don't get mad about it. I don't claim to be an expert on business so I don't get butthurt if a dude with an MBA points out my lack of knowledge in several areas.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


Hey, let me know when you’ll be able to educate me.


Jan 22, 2019, 1:36 PM [ in reply to Well, you fail in two areas. ]

Catahoula

I understand that you have better things to do, but you did call me ignorant...several times...and you did offer to explain both the profession of journalism and the academic major to me. Let me know when you might be able to start.

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null


Ready now.


Jan 22, 2019, 2:13 PM

I called you ignorant once, and I only mentioned that in light of the journalism profession. I did not call you ignorant as a person in general. Therein lies the problem: your misinterpretation of the facts you read. Since you think it's nothing more than creative writing, let me know what areas you would like me to explain to show you how it's not that.

Overall, you have a poor understanding of the profession yet a very vocal opinion of it; however, that is not uncommon when it comes to the general public.

Let me know what you want to know.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


You’re deflecting like crazy.


Jan 22, 2019, 2:27 PM

Tell me what I don’t know in your eyes, please.

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null


Okay


Jan 22, 2019, 4:53 PM

1. You called WaPo and NY Times "tabloids". Ridiculous on many levels even if you aren't a fan of what's on their editorial pages. These are two of the all-time heavy hitters of Pulitzer Prize journalism. That would be like calling the NY Yankees a T-ball team.

2. You blasted the press for not getting the full story on your time, but even admitted you didn't go back to see if they had fixed the story over the last couple of days. They did. They all did. So you did exactly what you criticized them for doing, and a simple Google search could have done that. I know, you've already ranted on that, but the point is that you don't understand that sometimes the full story doesn't come out right away, and the media have to adjust what's reported as the information comes in. They have corrected the inaccurate info. You made your post on a day when they had already taken care of this. Believe it or not, sometimes journalists have to go back and adjust the information reported as it comes in, the same way a doctor might have to reevaluate a diagnosis or a lawyer might have to adjust his or her approach to a court case.

What the media, and every other person in America, was given at first was a video that definitely looked like these young men were attacking the Native American. You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who didn't respond to that as it was presented. It wasn't until full footage emerged when everyone said, "Oops. Well, that wasn't what I thought it was." You did it. I did it. Journalists did it.

3. It's your creative writing comment that shows your complete ignorance of the profession. Firstly, "creative writing" generally applies to fiction prose, poetry, and narrative non-fiction. The latter is sometimes employed in the writing of personality features, or stories of a more human interest nature. But since the bulk of creative writing delves into the arena of short stories, novels, and poetry, your comment makes no sense.

As you said, you think a four-year journalism degree involves doing that. Thus, if you believe that, you're ignorant of the profession.

Journalism involves more than just writing. In fact, the majority of journalistic writing isn't really "creative" at all since most of it still employs the inverted pyramid style (let me know if you need me to explain that). When using that format, it's not about being creative; it's about getting as much of the information to the reader as you can before the reader decides to move on. Most readers only skim headlines and pictures, so hooking them and getting them enough info early on is crucial.

If you take note of the little silly right-wing blogs some of the folks here like to use, you can tell they have little to no journalistic training because they can't get to the #### point in the first two lines.

J schools also examine the art of the interview, which 80 percent of good reporting involves strong interview techniques. J school students are taught extensively about First Amendment and media law. You can throw just about any First Amendment case at me and I can tell you the Supreme Court case that already covers it. J students are taught how to use computer-assisted reporting and data mining. They're taught FOIA law and what public records they can access, and how to fight for it.

Good J schools delve into ethics, which I'll fully admit seems to be more and more of a problem in the media. I don't like Don Lemon's bias. I don't even like how Herbstreit can call Clemson games next year when his sons are on the team. But examining ethics in journalism is extremely complicated, and it's hard to prepare people for many of the situations they experience.

Now, apparently, they also have to learn how to apply social media to all aspects of their work, which is something I was never trained on. I probably would have trouble jumping back into the job given that. I tried Twitter once. Didn't really work.

J students are taught newsroom leadership to prepare them to be editors. They're taught psychology because of how often they have to deal with the public. They're taught philosophical theories for how to get and maintain an audience's attention. Often, they're taught marketing, PR, and public policy.

And THAT, my friend, is just the ones who go into print. The broadcast kids have a whole other set of skills they have to learn.

So yes, it's a wee bit more than creative writing, and yes, believing it's just creative writing is quite ignorant of what the job entails. It's not an easy job despite what anyone here who has never done it believes.

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I mean...that was terrible.


Jan 22, 2019, 7:54 PM

1) We already discussed this and my use of colorful terms on a message board is not relevant. I already agreed that they are not tabloids, but the articles were of tabloid quality. Why are you fixating? You're supposed to be teaching me.

2) No. False. And I will not accept that you don't understand this if you have a masters in journalism. No way. I have no problem with reporters reporting on a story as breaking news, and filling in as they go. And I wasn't looking for them to "fix" it. I was looking for a retraction. They didn't report "there was an some sort of altercation between protesting groups, including a group of high school kids there for the pro-life rally, a native american there for Indigenous People Day and the Hebrew Israelites there for (whatever they think they were there for)...we'll bring more info as we have it." They clearly and blatantly condemned the high school kids. They got one person's story, did not indicate that they attempted to call the kids, and wrote articles so unbelievably irresponsible that I cannot believe you are still trying to defend them. It is laughable. You're the only one I have found who would try to defend this.

3) UUUUUUUGH. Terrible. Just...terrible. So you actually thought that I actually thought that journalism class teaches just creative writing? Come on.

Okay...I thought you'd bring more than this but I think this has run its course. Thanks for the laughs.

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null


Re: I mean...that was terrible.


Jan 22, 2019, 10:02 PM

1. You said you wanted me to explain how your knowledge of the profession is ignorant. That's one of the pieces of evidence. If you don't mean it, don't say it.

2. You seem to be incorrectly reading that I'm defending the negligent reporting, kind of how you also claimed I called you ignorant many times. I called you that once, and only said you were ignorant of how the profession operates. So you either have trouble comprehending what I write, or you're willfully making stuff up.

People often demand "retractions" from the press without really understanding what that means. When a newspaper runs a retraction, what they're saying is that the story/news event/information completely didn't happen at all and they ran something that simply never occurred.

That isn't the case here. This confrontation did occur. The media have run corrections to their reporting. They have admitted that factual information about the incident wasn't reported properly, and now they have moved to correct.

People who demand retractions, once again, don't really get how the business works.

Now where these young men, particularly the smiling one, have cause to respond is in the libel/slander realm. They could feasibly file litigation for libel and slander against various news institutions depending on who reported what. Generally those are somewhat smoothed over with said corrections in a timely fashion; however, the young men could potentially argue that their reputations have been sullied on a large scale. Honestly, I would be surprised if that one boy in particular doesn't sue.

3. So you actually thought that I actually thought that journalism class teaches just creative writing? Come on.

Did you forget typing this?

I guess we just have different opinions of what constitutes Journalism. Hard to believe that four-year degrees are offered in a discipline that amounts to little more than creative writing, but maybe I’m expecting too much.

Stop backpedaling. You're making yourself look silly. You know people can just go back and quote your posts, right?

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


No.. But you would think that "respected" journalists


Jan 21, 2019, 12:47 PM [ in reply to In a day where a video from a cell phone ]

Would get the entire video in context before the get the "poor native american vet" in studio to espouse his activist agenda.

No one wants to talk about the group of disgusting racists the black hebrew israelites that actually instigated the whole thing.

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GO TIGERS!!


Yup, in this day and age calling someone a phaggot


Jan 21, 2019, 12:53 PM

in a public setting will get you doxxed, outed, ostracized, fired, and made a social pariah in a matter of days, if not hours........

unless you're a member of the Black Hebrew Israelites, directing your slurs at a group of white kids, then it really doesn't merit any mention.

I give these kids full credit for handling the situation with maturity and restraint. They did much, much better than the teens I knew and ran with would have back in the day.

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Oh there's absolutely no doubt in that last sentence.***


Jan 21, 2019, 12:55 PM



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Let's not go that far.


Jan 21, 2019, 2:07 PM [ in reply to Yup, in this day and age calling someone a phaggot ]

The kids had started to form a crowd around them. Restraint was likely about to go out the window. But they're acting as we would expect a large crowd of teenage boys to act. Thankfully, some other adults intervened.

The men yelling at the boys were idiots. This probably would have escalated into something worse without the Vietnam Vet stepping in.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


Disagree....


Jan 21, 2019, 2:36 PM

This whole event took place over a span of 90 minutes+, including drummer dude getting involved for over 30 minutes. The kids were actually dancing around being goofy with the guy for a while, with zero malice. If something bad were going to happen, and come from the kids' side, it already would have in that span.

They didn't encircle the guy like a lynch mob about to finish him off, they were trying to see what in the world was going on. In fact, in one spot one kid does start to respond to the hecklers and the main kid (who had the drummer in his face) motioned for him to stand down and not engage them.

Short of the chaperones getting them the eph out of there (which they should have), I don't fault the kid's actions at all.

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I don't really fault the kids, either.


Jan 21, 2019, 3:20 PM

But I'm not going to start labeling them as martyrs as quickly as some folks wanted to label them villains.

Teenage boys in a group like this are likely going to circle their antagonists unless stopped. What goes from there, at best, is harsh words returned. At worst, well, you know.

Thankfully, it didn't get to that point.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


He might not be a martyr, but the main kid, who


Jan 21, 2019, 3:35 PM

was completely and totally in the right, has now gotten death threats, threats of expulsion, you name it....maybe not martyr-worthy but he's absolutely a victim of shabby rush-to-judgement journalism and the millions of hot takes it inspired from both the left and the right.

He did zero...zilch...wrong, and I'd be proud if my son were in the same scenario and acted similarly.

We were just talking the other day about how the grown guy who punched the girl was a total jagoff because he was the adult and should have known better. Funny that the "adults" in this scenario aren't garnering the same general opinion. These are 15-year olds, many probably on their first trip to a major metro area encountering a scenario like this--they aren't seasoned activists or diplomats----They behaved far, far better than I would have expected.

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Absolutely.. The no harm no foul BS doesn't apply here.***


Jan 21, 2019, 3:37 PM



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Re: He might not be a martyr, but the main kid, who


Jan 21, 2019, 4:02 PM [ in reply to He might not be a martyr, but the main kid, who ]

I agree 100 percent. Unfortunately, on the surface, he looks like a smug spoiled prick. But that's the problem. That's just the surface, and we can't judge a young man based on that. As you mentioned, he hasn't deserved any of this hatred or abuse.

How much nicer the world would be if people waited for all the information and didn't rush to their computers to attack someone based on a first impression.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


from your lips to God's ears.***


Jan 21, 2019, 4:03 PM



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Oh, and seriously man, what worries me more


Jan 21, 2019, 4:12 PM

are the sheer number of people who claim this all began, and was even deserved, due to the kids wearing MAGA hats, even after the additional footage was released.

This is seriously concerning to me. I think I've been clear about what I think about Trump, and I know you know my opinion. With that said, it's scary to me that wearing a hat supporting him is now tantamount to wearing a swastika or a white hood. It's a narrative that's been carefully created and spread, and it's dangerous as hell.

The day that a large minority in this country (much less a majority) feel that having a different political ideology should be disallowed by any means necessary is pretty much the end of us as we know it. You worry a lot about "end of the republic" type omens, and I hope this one is on your list as well.

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Agreed...


Jan 21, 2019, 4:56 PM

And attacking anyone, particular a kid, because they're wearing a MAGA hat is extremely counter-intuitive to drawing people to your side.

As Sun Tzu said, always maintain the high ground.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


Re: Agreed...


Jan 21, 2019, 4:59 PM

Unfortunately the high ground seems to stay mostly unoccupied these days.

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Re: Let's not go that far.


Jan 21, 2019, 2:39 PM [ in reply to Let's not go that far. ]

The native american vet and his group DID not diffuse the situation.. They joined in.. On that we'll just agree to disagree.

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Re: Well, let's pump the brakes on the media hate in this story.


Jan 21, 2019, 1:04 PM [ in reply to Well, let's pump the brakes on the media hate in this story. ]

I see no signs of them trying to instigate an altercation. I see them blowing off the instigators by being comical smart-asses to make light of the fact a bunch of adults are trying to bully them.


And lets be clear about what actually happened here: a bunch of grown adults went out of their way to harass and bully a bunch of teenage kids. The adults that instigated the harassment then produced heavily doctored videos to the media that showed an extremely skewed and dishonest account of what really happened, and then the media took that fraudulent video and plastered dozens of headlining, breaking news stories across the national media platforms that painted these kids as "evil" and a plethora of other awful things.

Millions of people saw this and were immediately filled with furious outrage, believing exactly what was in this first account.


Then the full video came out and the media quietly made corrections.

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CNNs original headline (paraphrased)- Teen in MAGA


Jan 21, 2019, 1:14 PM [ in reply to Well, let's pump the brakes on the media hate in this story. ]

cap confronts Native American..

They were definitely motivated by the opportunity to toss around their own version of hate and divisiveness. That's not journalism. If they were interested in the story, why not just: Teen confronts Native American at Lincoln Memorial?

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CNN does employ a lot of journalists...


Jan 21, 2019, 1:20 PM

But they also employ a lot of non-journalists, and I wouldn't consider the front page of their website to be "journalism". Not based on what I see on it. (Same goes for the "other side," Fox News).

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Unfortunately, you are in the minority on that.


Jan 21, 2019, 1:22 PM

Because A LOT of people read them, on both "sides", as the gospel.

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I wouldn't consider it journalism either, but shouldn't it


Jan 21, 2019, 1:25 PM [ in reply to CNN does employ a lot of journalists... ]

be?

Any news website that frequently posts opinion pieces as it's main headline shouldn't be taken seriously...but unfortunately many people do.

Yes - FOX is guilty as well.

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I have to remember they are a corporation with a primary


Jan 21, 2019, 1:27 PM

goal of making money. It's hard to fault them for that, really. I try to do the same.

What no one should do is try to pass of non-journalism, as journalism. That is deceptive and harmful. It's hard to fault CNN/Fox News, however, if people read what they write and decide opinions are facts. That's up to us to be able to tell the difference.

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"The real villains in this are the "Israelites""


Jan 21, 2019, 1:37 PM [ in reply to Well, let's pump the brakes on the media hate in this story. ]

Well that's a nifty edit..

What you meant were the group that calls themselves the Black Hebrew Israelites. Just to clarify.

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Are you in this mode right now...


Jan 21, 2019, 2:09 PM

Where you're trying to start an argument? Because you're acting this way towards people who are even agreeing with you on this matter. There isn't any "nifty edit"; I can't edit my posts.

Jesus. You and I hold the same opinion on who is at fault here and you're still acting like an ### hat. Grow up.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


Not at all.. I was just fixing it for you.


Jan 21, 2019, 2:32 PM

As an aside. I do think that we mostly agree this time.

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CNN is backing away from their original stance, BUT


Jan 21, 2019, 1:07 PM

this type of stand-off occurs all the time at "protests". CNN would have never even reported this non-incident if the kid was wearing some other cap. The MAGA cap gave them the opportunity to show that all Trump supporters must be racists and deplorable.

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The problem is that they are backing away almost silently.


Jan 21, 2019, 1:10 PM

If they were backing away and apologizing as emphatically as they were reporting the original story I'd give them some credit.

They aren't.

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Re: The second ever example in history of questionable journalism


Jan 21, 2019, 1:31 PM

The Native American guy is a well known political activist and agitator. But they don’t share that info.

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Link to his 2012 anti-cop activity


Jan 21, 2019, 1:48 PM

Same old crap. These types were used to protest the Kavanaugh hearings inside the senate chamber, they were set loose inside Trump rallies in 2016, etc. All liberal losers paid to stir up shlt to make Trump supporters look bad and create a story for widespread media dissemination to the unwitting masses. Most don’t look any further than what the talking head on TV tells them is reality.

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Link


Jan 21, 2019, 1:49 PM

https://bigleaguepolitics.com/native-activist-who-harassed-catholic-teens-identified-as-actor-from-2012-skrillex-video-about-attacking-police/

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Mainstream news media is just slanted narrative.


Jan 21, 2019, 5:51 PM

People willingly subject themselves to a corporate narrative with the hopes that they can quickly and conveniently learn about what's going on in the world by spending 15-30 minutes a day.

Delusion.
But the real story here is the extremely irrational and anti-critical thinking political environment we have now.

Discourse is dead.

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Re: The second ever example in history of questionable journalism


Jan 22, 2019, 2:47 PM

So in the videos, we can see probably 15 of the boys are recording with their phones. Have any of those videos come out?

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Re: The second ever example in history of questionable journalism


Jan 22, 2019, 2:49 PM

The real story should have been about those racist black dudes who were starting problems.

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the media is fortunate in this instance.


Jan 22, 2019, 2:56 PM

It could have been a group of gender-fluid DACA youth that were being called phagggots by the African Abrahamic order of Wiccan Israelites for Judah. Then they really wouldn’t have known how to spin the article. Sometimes though, life hands you a white, male, Catholic, middle class conservative gimme putt like this one.

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Hold the ####### horses.


Jan 22, 2019, 10:29 PM

I just realized that you're sitting here rambling on about tabloids and how terrible the media are, and you're using a site called Information Liberation as your source.

Jesus ####.

You realize these alternative news sites are complete ########, and that's because they have zero people to answer to when they #### up, right?

They have been flagged as extreme right wing propaganda. They won't even disclose who operates the site.

How many of these sites do you peruse?

I've always loved how this board works. "The media are a bunch of liars and have no credibility whatsoever! Here's a random fringe website run out of some dude's apartment that tells me so!"

Christ Biscuits.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


I don't trust the website at all, but he used it for a video


Jan 22, 2019, 11:15 PM

link right?

He said...

And nope, I don’t know this site either...maybe they fabricated the video and the subsequent comments on Twitter?

But if not...wow.


I don't think it's fair to dismiss the video or his point just because the a site that hosted the video is dubious. It's definitely something to keep in mind... but tossing it out? We are mainly talking about a video right?

We shouldn't be scared of the opportunity to evaluate raw information for ourselves and based on our own standards.

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Re: I don't trust the website at all, but he used it for a video


Jan 23, 2019, 6:58 AM

Nah, the video is fine (and available everywhere). It's his use of this site given all his other arguments in this thread.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


But he didn't use the site except for the video right?


Jan 23, 2019, 1:06 PM

I did not interpret that site as being necessary to his point. I could have missed something.

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Of that alternative website, the NYT and WaPo...


Jan 23, 2019, 6:55 AM [ in reply to Hold the ####### horses. ]

which one(s) wrote articles incorrectly vilifying teenage kids because "that's what they were given"?

"How many of these sites do you peruse?"

None. Literally none. Nor do I peruse the NYT or WaPo. I do read WSJ, and I read through my Apple Newsfeed. I read on Facebook some references to additional video and Googled it, and that site was one of the first results.

"The media are a bunch of liars and have no credibility whatsoever! Here's a random fringe website run out of some dude's apartment that tells me so!"

This is where you would say something asinine like how I used quotes for something that you never actually said. But again, which story was correct, and which one wasn't?

We are what we do. The NYT and WaPo are only respected so long as they do respectable work. Here, they did not. There are numerous instances in the past couple decades where they did not. As they continue to fail at their jobs, people will respect them less. You, as a fan of these publications, should be more outraged about this situation than I am. I don't even read them (directly). You seem to love them. Do you want them to become this?

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null


Re: Of that alternative website, the NYT and WaPo...


Jan 23, 2019, 8:03 AM

If you don't want people to think you rely on those sites for news, don't link to them. That video was available in many other places. YouTube was your best bet.

All this fringe site did was take someone else's work.

I am not a "fan" of any news site; I just know some are credible and others aren't. And I know some of those credible ones make mistakes. Their credibility hinges on how they handle those mistakes. These little right-wing basement sites never acknowledge when they publish fake information.

Part of the problem is that you don't read them. If you did, you'd know which is better. And I'm always wanting journalism to improve from its current state.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

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