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Legend [15910]
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Another day, another senseless shooting.
Nov 8, 2018, 12:19 PM
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After the Las Vegas slaughter of 50+ people, Trump said that America did not have a gun problem, but a mental health crisis. While I think there is certainly room for improvement in regard to access to firearms and the types available, I whole heartedly agree with the mental health issue.
Its pretty interesting though isn't it? Conservatives want to push the issue onto a mental health problem, but wouldn't ever agree to fund the solution. To be fair, its not like Libs jumped on it either. Nobody can argue that there hve been drastic cuts to mental health funding for decades, and now we are reaping what has been sewn.
If we want these tragedies to end, create a massive govt funded mental health program available to whoever needs it.
More govt? Socialism? Blah blah blah.. Do you have kids? Ask them how they feel preparing for active shooters drills in their elementary schools. Think of the phone call saying your wife was murdered having dinner with friends or your mom killed at church because they were simply in the wrong public space.
Like I said, no Dem is pushing it either. Heck, half the country isn't even in favor or having universal health insurance, can't imagine mental health is ever funded. But I opine that if we want our socity to get better, we have to be willing to once again take care of the sick and get people access to mental health.
If you aren't familiar with the 3 decades worth of proven outcomes from the A.C E. Study, check it out. Things won't get better by ignoring them.
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All-In [46801]
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This came up this morning.
Nov 8, 2018, 12:25 PM
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Daughter of's school will be doing an active shooter drill soon. Got to figure out a way to explain to my daughter she is a fish in a barrel and if she wants to survive she has to learn how to duck and dive.
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Legend [15910]
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Ironiclly, Vandy or Stanford just released a study concluding how detrimental
Nov 8, 2018, 12:32 PM
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these active shooter drills are. They take kids as young as 5yo and create anxiety and fear for an unkown and uncontrollable outcome.
Anymore, my wife will go pick my daughter up and take her for a milkshake when her school is doing one.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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The conversation will not be serious until SSRI's are part
Nov 8, 2018, 12:25 PM
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of it.
Somehow, in the U.S. (maybe pharma companies, IDK) the media ALWAYS leaves out anti-depressants when it comes to mass shootings. And as a result, people react like it's a conspiracy theory simply because it's not spoon fed to them. If you look outside of American media, you at least have a chance to find an article about it.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/07/25/antidepressants-linked-murders-murderous-thoughts/
And for those who would rather attack the source without considering the argument (so popular these days)... here.
https://corporate.telegraph.co.uk/about-us/
It's like discussing foreign policy and ignoring the military industrial complex or the petro-dollar.
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Oculus Spirit [97677]
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It's a chicken or egg kind of thing
Nov 8, 2018, 12:39 PM
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Like suicidal thoughts are more common with people on anti-depressants. Well, of course. Depressed people are far more likely to commit suicide.
The way I see things, anxiety is treatable with medicine. Depression isn't really. Just the way I see things. The two don't always go together by the way.
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Legend [15910]
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All mental health diagnoses are improved with talk/behavioral therapy in
Nov 8, 2018, 1:06 PM
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conjunction with meds. We're happy to put people on meds, insurance will cover that. The point is people need access to therapy as well. I'll be shocked if 10% of tnet has mor than 5 therapy sessions covered if that.
Meds help for sure, but not if there's the ability to work through issues while developing new coping skills and behavioral changes. Thats the missing piece. We'd do a lot of good to start with our vets who've given us so much.
I just don't see why mental health can't be covered by medical insurance. I choose my doc, I choose my therapist.
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Oculus Spirit [97677]
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For depression, therapy helps way more than meds
Nov 8, 2018, 4:24 PM
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For anxiety, meds and you're cured most of the time.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Re: It's a chicken or egg kind of thing
Nov 9, 2018, 3:27 PM
[ in reply to It's a chicken or egg kind of thing ] |
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Professor Peter Tyrer, a psychiatrist at Imperial College London, has been assessing the performance of SSRIs since they were first introduced in the 1980s.
“You can never be quite certain with a rare side-effect whether it’s linked to a drug or not because it could be related to other things,” he said.
“But it’s happened just too frequently with this class of drug to make it random. It’s obviously related to the drug but we don’t know exactly why.”
The programme also looked into claims that the Batman movie killer James Holmes, who killed 12 people at a midnight premier cinema screening at Colorado in 2012, was taking the SSRIs sertraline at the time of the murders.
Analysing Holmes' notebooks and psychiatric interviews with him carried out after the killings, the programme found that he appeared to lose his fear of consequences as the drugs removed his anxiety.
And as the dose of sertraline was increased, the programme shows his obsessive thoughts became psychotic.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/07/25/antidepressants-linked-murders-murderous-thoughts/
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All-TigerNet [11145]
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They can certainly be part of the conversation, and should
Nov 8, 2018, 12:48 PM
[ in reply to The conversation will not be serious until SSRI's are part ] |
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be, but they are only a tiny part of the equation. As of 2014, a little over 10% of the population takes some form of SSRI, so we're looking at around 35 million people. The minuscule percentage of individuals who act on homicidal thoughts compared to the those who don't doesn't really indicate a causal relationship. This class of drugs helps a ton more people than it hurts.
If you're taking an antidepressant it means you've recognized a problem and have sought treatment. Identifying true at risk individuals would be more effective, but how many people would actually admit to their therapists/psychs that they are thinking about doing something like this.
Mental health is a piece. Access is a piece. Effective treatment is a piece. Prevalence of gun culture is a piece. Minimizing this kind of event will take a concerted effort by all of us and we need to begin by putting away our biases and politics.
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All-In [28802]
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What is this "gun culture" I keep hearing about?
Nov 8, 2018, 1:48 PM
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Do people just mean "people owning guns," just like "rape culture" was supposed to be "people ###### people"?
Anyway, as you said, SSRI's are primarily being taken by people who already have a diagnosed mental health disorder. They're intended to get people to the point where they can function normally enough to even do things like go to talk therapy. The evidence suggests there's a depression and mental illness problem, especially among young people (diagnosed anxiety and depression have skyrocketed among young people, especially among young girls), not a SSRI problem.
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All-TigerNet [11145]
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Study the history and
Nov 8, 2018, 2:52 PM
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playbook from the NRA and their affiliated organizations. For most of its existence the NRA supported gun control legislation, advocated for gun safety, marksmanship, and responsibility. Heck, I even took an NRA safety course when I was 12 before I could go hunting.
Now it's the politics and cultural fear-mongering over the 2nd amendment. The NRA is not a wholesome contributor to our society anymore.
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All-In [28802]
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So that's "gun culture" now?
Nov 8, 2018, 3:15 PM
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That sounds like gun politics, and I'm not really sure what it has to do with somebody going and shooting up a bunch of people.
Message was edited by: camcgee®
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All-TigerNet [11145]
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Go look at some of their publications,
Nov 8, 2018, 3:22 PM
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their TV channel, advertisements, etc. When there are 40 million more registered firearms in the US than there are people, and thats not even counting unregistered/illegally possessed firearms, it's safe to say that a "gun culture" exists.
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All-In [28802]
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Just not really sure why that's being called a "culture"
Nov 8, 2018, 4:06 PM
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We don't talk about "house culture" or "shoe culture" as if it's some sort of significant social phenomenon.
Message was edited by: camcgee®
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All-TigerNet [11145]
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We don't have house advocacy or shoe rights
Nov 8, 2018, 4:13 PM
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groups either, especially not with their own advertising/marketing teams or TV channels. The term is infinitely debatable, but "gun culture" exists and it is not hard to find.
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All-In [28802]
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We definitely do have house advocacy groups***
Nov 8, 2018, 5:16 PM
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All-TigerNet [11145]
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Yes, but your being nitpicky. Do any housing advocacy
Nov 8, 2018, 10:13 PM
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groups have the kind of cultural and political influence as the NRA? No. Fug no. Not a single one.
Now that I've taken the bait, it's late, and I'm out.
Peace, Love, and Tigers, y'all.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Oculus Spirit [79401]
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I think our entire paycheck should just go directly to
Nov 8, 2018, 12:25 PM
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government so we can fund these awesome programs that will undoubtedly be exceptionally well run, then after they allocate our money how they see fit they can give us back what's left.
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Legend [15910]
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So you suggest there's no correlation between the almost complete cut of mental
Nov 8, 2018, 12:28 PM
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health funding and what we see today?
Have a better idea? Or are you willing to support an overhaul of the 2nd ammendment. Or perhaps the staus quo works for you. Which is it?
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Oculus Spirit [79401]
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I have a pretty good insight into the realm of government
Nov 8, 2018, 12:40 PM
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run mental healthcare, funding is part of the problem, but increasing it won't help very much either. It's money going into a black hole. You can't just throw money at the problem, it's deeper than that. Not to mention, the funding that is there is often woefully mismanaged. I think Completely Solid Orange brings up a very good point about the SSRI's, that's a big part of the puzzle that people rarely talk about.
I'm of the opinion that the ultimate solution is to stop incentivizing low IQ people to breed so rapidly. Seriously. The truly crazy people are out there having 3, 4, maybe even 5 kids a piece. And at least a few of them are going to be just as crazy, if not crazier than their parents.
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Hall of Famer [22935]
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There are ways out there to stop people from having kids
Nov 8, 2018, 2:47 PM
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Better sex ed
Better access to birth control
Abortion
Many of these are not supported by the 2nd Amendment folks either.
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All-In [28802]
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Also, not having a bunch of irresponsible sex
Nov 8, 2018, 5:26 PM
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Which is why the out of wedlock birth rate has gone way up since most of the things you mentioned became more common.
I always find it sort of humorous when people claim that people are having more kids because they're not getting good enough sex ed in schools. Like, do they think people don't know about the connection between sex children? Or do they not realize the internet is out there for people concerned about having children who want to have sex, but who don't know how babies are made and how contraception works?
Contraception access is also rarely cited as a reason why somebody didn't use contraception.
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All-In [28802]
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I'd be curious to know...
Nov 8, 2018, 1:52 PM
[ in reply to So you suggest there's no correlation between the almost complete cut of mental ] |
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how many of these people weren't being treated for mental illness, or how many have/had a mental illness. People always talk about how somebody needs to pay for mentally ill people to get treatment before they go postal, but frequently these people were in treatment and either discontinued it on their own or stopped taking their meds on their own. In the case of this shooter, he likely had access to free care through the VA.
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Legend [16207]
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Remind me, did we have this problem 30 or 40 years ago?
Nov 8, 2018, 5:33 PM
[ in reply to So you suggest there's no correlation between the almost complete cut of mental ] |
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Is society having more mental problems than back in the day? What could be the cause of the increase? Global warming, herbicides, GMO foods?
I think the OP is on to something....maybe we should provide unlimited funding to increase teacher salaries too to fix the apparent education problem.
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: Another day, another senseless shooting.
Nov 8, 2018, 12:27 PM
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Democrats passed legislation that allowed states to expand medicaid and provide free mental health services to a wide range of people.
Remember, medicaid is not just for poor people.
Republicans then spent years trying to undo it. Trump says he supports easier access to mental health care. He's a liar.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Another reason nothing get's done. Tribalism
Nov 8, 2018, 12:30 PM
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Democrats passed legislation that allowed states to expand medicaid and provide free mental health services to a wide range of people.
Remember, medicaid is not just for poor people.
Republicans then spent years trying to undo it. Trump says he supports easier access to mental health care. He's a liar.
You could just ignore everything that's not in bold, and substitute ANY topic for the rest of that post. Rinse, repeat, decline.
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Legend [17249]
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Certainly Tribalism and the rigid adherence to policy dogma
Nov 8, 2018, 12:44 PM
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Of each political party.
Little room for any independent thought or creative compromise.
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: Another reason nothing get's done. Tribalism
Nov 8, 2018, 2:45 PM
[ in reply to Another reason nothing get's done. Tribalism ] |
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Don't address the facts of the post or anything.
It's also cute that you think you don't have a tribe.
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CU Medallion [59982]
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Re: Another day, another senseless shooting.
Nov 8, 2018, 3:40 PM
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Breakdown in culture in our society. No one is connected any longer. It’s thelack of God in our lives, lack of community and being a part of something greater than yourself. No one is really a part of civic organizations or going to the YMCA and connecting.
This lack of being connected to your community and the people around you creates this lack of empathy, depression, anxiety and the more they are separated, the worse it gets.
Maybe it’s not church or the YMCA, but even just a monthly Kiwanis meeting or something where you are connected to others is huge for mental health and quality of life. Instead of playing shooter games in the basement all weekend, how about teaching your kids about nature, take them fishing, put them in sports. Give them avaenues to grow as a person. Video games are not the issue. Parenting and the lack of interest in your child’s life breeds this type of person commit crimes like we are seeing.
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Legend [16207]
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I have a police officer who lives in my community...
Nov 8, 2018, 4:14 PM
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...he's actually a certified bada$$. Teaches shooting and self defense to officers over 5 Central Florida counties, SWAT team member, weapons expert...basically the guy you want on your team and not against you.
He told me the other day that over 40% of the population is on drugs to treat various forms of mental issues, personality disorders, etc. He said the drugs are serious prescription type medications. It doesn't mean that 40% are non-function lunatics but gives you pause for concern.
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: I have a police officer who lives in my community...
Nov 8, 2018, 6:45 PM
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What percentage of the population takes NSAID's?
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Legend [16207]
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I'm sure aspirin is commonly used***
Nov 8, 2018, 6:48 PM
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