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Topic: Trump lawyers drop PA claim about unwatched vote counting
Replies: 18   Last Post: Nov 16, 2020, 11:46 PM by: Tobias27772
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Replies: 18  

Trump lawyers drop PA claim about unwatched vote counting

[1]
Posted: Nov 16, 2020, 8:42 AM
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Ahead of a Tuesday hearing in the case, Trump’s campaign dropped the allegation that hundreds of thousands of mail-in and absentee ballots — 682,479, to be precise — were illegally processed without its representatives watching.

....

A key theme of Trump and his supporters has been their claim that Philadelphia — a Democratic bastion where Trump lost badly — had not allowed Trump's campaign representatives to watch mail-in and absentee ballots processed and tabulated.

However, Republican lawyers have acknowledged in a separate federal court proceeding that they had certified observers watching mail-in ballots being processed in Philadelphia. Gov. Tom Wolf's administration has said that ballot watchers from all parties had observers throughout the process and that “any insinuation otherwise is a lie.”

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Re: Trump lawyers drop PA claim about unwatched vote counting


Posted: Nov 16, 2020, 8:50 AM
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Shocking. It's all leading nowhere. It's all just a way for Trump to act like he fought for it. Trump knows he is done.

2021 white level member

That was the main argument the Trumpers on P&R were holding onto


Posted: Nov 16, 2020, 9:08 AM
    Reply

Have they accepted results of election yet?

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Re: That was the main argument the Trumpers on P&R were holding onto

[1]
Posted: Nov 16, 2020, 9:27 AM
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Nope

2021 white level member

Re: Trump lawyers drop PA claim about unwatched vote counting

[1]
Posted: Nov 16, 2020, 10:09 AM
    Reply

Carl,

I am not sure about Trump. If you or I were in his position, we would certainly understand that all of these lawsuits were fruitless, But I am not sure That Donald Trump can accept defeat - or ever has. He even sees his multiple bankruptcies as victories.

He has already repeatedly proven that his relationship with reality is tenuous at best. But a reality in which he, Donald J Trump, is a loser may be beyond his capacity (like so many other things).


Re: Trump lawyers drop PA claim about unwatched vote counting

[1]
Posted: Nov 16, 2020, 12:59 PM
    Reply

He is also raising a bunch of money due to it as well supposedly.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/12/trump-fraud-claims-fundraising-436188

2021 white level member

Re: Trump lawyers drop PA claim about unwatched vote counting


Posted: Nov 16, 2020, 11:36 AM
    Reply

Bite that MSM hook, sheep.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-campaign-pennsylvania-lawsuit-washington-post-report


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Re: Trump lawyers drop PA claim about unwatched vote counting

[1]
Posted: Nov 16, 2020, 11:40 AM
    Reply

You forgot to read your own article, Keowee.

What the Post and Politico reports get right, however, is that the crux of the amended complaint removed claims regarding those allegations. The original complaint included a count of "Invalid Enactment of Regulations Affecting Observation and Monitoring of the Election," referencing the alleged lack of adequate observation in claiming a violation of the Fourteenth Amendment's right to due process. The new complaint has that entire section taken out, with no counts listed that reference poll watching or the 680,770 ballots.

Additionally, the original complaint requested relief that included preventing the certification of election results that included the counting of ballots that "watchers were prevented from observing," but the amended complaint does not include this or anything resembling that request.

Instead, where the amended complaint requests relief the only specific ballots mentioned are those that allegedly were "improperly permitted to be cured." This is a reference to allegations that voters in some counties who submitted invalid mail-in ballots were notified before Election Day so that they could cast provisional ballots instead, even though state law says that ballots should not be processed before Election Day.

Pennsylvania Secretary of State Kathy Boockvar filed a motion to dismiss the amended complaint on Sunday, claiming that the campaign's new filing "adds no new claims for relief and instead materially narrows the pending allegations to a single claim under the same theory alleged in the original complaint."


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Re: Trump lawyers drop PA claim about unwatched vote counting

[1]
Posted: Nov 16, 2020, 11:46 PM
    Reply

spoon,

Wait a minute ! You mean there was an article beyond the headline !? W T F ??


You're believing Giuliani now?

[1]
Posted: Nov 16, 2020, 11:50 AM
    Reply

I mean, just read the amended documents. Even Fox says the same thing.



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Not sure why this is so hard to understand

[1]
Posted: Nov 16, 2020, 12:24 PM
    Reply

There was never a dispute that they were allowed to watch. It’s in the transcript of the trial court hearing. They said they were forced to remain behind barricades and couldn’t really see details. They referred to it as not having meaningful access. The board of elections said all the law required was for them to be in the room. The Trump side said that was ridiculous since they could have had a blanket put up in front of them and still would have been “in the room.”

The problem for the Trump team is the Republican-led PA legislature are the ones who changed that part of the law and dropped the ability to challenge ballots during the canvass. Almost every other state allows that. They can’t however be saying the judge can’t legislate from the bench and extend the 3 day period for receiving mail-in ballots while at the same time asking the judge to add “meaningful access.”

They probably realized that was a losing battle. Plus I believe it hasn’t worked well in other states either. It seems most judges are requiring video evidence of people filing out blank ballots for other people before they’ll even listen to the case. And you can’t get that because recording devices are conveniently banned.

This was missed opportunity by the R’s on the front end when all this legislation happened. That was the time to fix it...when the legislation was made and Dems filed over 320 lawsuits to get it the way they wanted. It will be almost impossible now. Even in GA, the hand recount is fairly pointless. There is one observer for 10 counters and they can’t challenge signatures or hardly anything else.

http://www.pacourts.us/assets/files/setting-7736/file-10377.pdf?cb=88c8ff

2021 orange level member

Re: Not sure why this is so hard to understand

[1]
Posted: Nov 16, 2020, 12:46 PM
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Are there any relevant PA cases remaining?


Posted: Nov 16, 2020, 12:49 PM
    Reply

Here were the two quoted before:

Re: Which two are the relevant PA cases? Posted: Nov 11, 2020 9:20 PM

The Dem appeal at the PA Supreme Court about the 6 ft court order and the federal case filed yesterday that mentions the inability to properly observe and the unconstitutional election changes made by the Sec of State and the court. A win of either of those would be significant, especially the second one.

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Read all you want


Posted: Nov 16, 2020, 1:10 PM
    Reply

http://www.pacourts.us/news-and-statistics/cases-of-public-interest/election-2020


https://www.pamd.uscourts.gov/donald-j-trump-president-v-boockvar-et-al-420-cv-02078


That federal lawsuit didn’t go away. The complaint was just amended. Turns out Trump was right and WAPO was wrong. If you read it, they just took out specific language alleging actual fraud and that things were done outside of the election code, for reasons I mentioned in my previous post.

That case is supposed to be heard this week. Here is the actual amended complaint.

https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.pamd.127057/gov.uscourts.pamd.127057.125.1.pdf

2021 orange level member

The WaPo is right.


Posted: Nov 16, 2020, 1:31 PM
    Reply

The counts involving the right of observers have been deleted. The fact that there are still allegations in the complaint does change the fact that the claims have been withdrawn. The WaPo correctly explained that the remaining claims are about disparate treatment under Equal Protection.

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Tomato tomahto I guess


Posted: Nov 16, 2020, 2:06 PM
    Reply

The WAPO article says they “jettisoned major parts.” I read it more as they modified their angle of attack.

The relief request for the “unwatched” ballots was always an alternative relief request. I think they removed the specific language about fraud and election code because the first thing a judge always asks in these cases is “do you have specific proof that fraud occurred?” Obviously if they can’t see the ballots then they only have limited or anecdotal evidence, and that’s a high burden of proof anyway.

So they went to a broader constitutional complaint and asked for only the cured ballots to be tossed and for the commonwealth-wide results to not be certified. They just deleted the specific alternative relief request of not certifying the unwatched ballots. They still left it in the allegations of the broader complaint though.

2021 orange level member

Re: Tomato tomahto I guess

[1]
Posted: Nov 16, 2020, 2:14 PM
    Reply

You can read it however you want, but they deleted counts. That means they abandoned claims. And the claims they abandoned were based on the issue with observers.

I don't know how you're referring to something as "alternative relief" when it's in separate counts that are 100% consistent with the counts remaining. Alternative counts are generally inconsistent with the primary relief. Here, if I'm not mistaken, the observer counts were among the first counts in the original complaint. Not alternative at all.

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I was referring to the attached

[1]
Posted: Nov 16, 2020, 2:31 PM
    Reply

Again, I think they were trying to eliminate stuff they either couldn’t currently prove or was likely to get shot down because it complied with the letter of the law.

Instead they’re trying to get to a broader complaint about the whole mail-in system that PA created and still trying at a minimum to get the cured ballots tossed because they were not following the law. Not sure what stopping the certification would result in unless they’re trying to get the PA legislature to cast the electors.

My guess is those cured ballots get tossed but the judge isn’t going to dare stop the certification. Other states have had mail-in voting and the Republicans oversaw the creation of the PA system.

2021 orange level member

I can’t help but think Trimp


Posted: Nov 16, 2020, 1:30 PM
    Reply

Is just trying to continue with the manufactured chaos and uncertainty with hopes that Republican state legislatures in the contested states assigns the electors and sends the whole thing to the house...a very slim, but still possible path to victory from what I have read.


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