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Starter [381]
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Brad Brownell
Mar 22, 2016, 3:53 AM
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Not being a Brownell apologist, but in hindsight, our basketball team finished eighth this year in a league with six teams in the sweet 16. I really don't consider that all that awful. Not to mention three wins over sweet 16 teams. Yes, there were some ugly losses early in the year, but this team definitely did better than most predicted them to do.
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110%er [7191]
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Re: Brad Brownell
Mar 22, 2016, 4:38 AM
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And an even uglier loss to Tech in the 1st round of the ACC Tournament which knocked us out of even the NIT!
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Orange Blooded [4559]
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Congrats to Coach Brownell. "Middling Is The Standard"***
Mar 22, 2016, 10:33 AM
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Legend [16902]
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Re: Brad Brownell
Mar 22, 2016, 6:44 AM
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Or winless against a putrid SEC with only one team left in the tournament?
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CU Guru [1993]
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Re: Brad Brownell
Mar 22, 2016, 7:39 AM
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I have been a tiger for almost 45 years now. In that time, our basketball team has had a few sparkling moments. By in large, though, we put up a pretty good fight during the regular season, show out at home, and then completely fail during the ACC tournament. This then drops us out of post season contention, for the most part. The mentality of the AD has been to spend the money on football, which I can't blame. That's what we are. Until they change that mentality, and hire a coach with a more proven track record than putting a good mid major team into a couple NCAA tournament appearances, we will always be in this position. Case in point - when we finally hit a homerun with the traitor at Texas, we wouldn't pay to keep him here. The question becomes, do we have the ability to hire and keep so many prominent, and expensive, coaches. I would love to see us fighting for a top 4 spot in the conference every year; making a run at the NCAA championship. Tell me how many schools, though, have solid traditions, football and basketball, of running both teams at both championships. And it isn't all just alumni spending - Texas really hasn't been relevant for several years. Give me my football championship, baseball back on course, soccer team doing as well as it has in years, and I will continue to tell my tarhole buddy, you can have basketball, while we rip the ACC title away from you
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Orange Blooded [4854]
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I was always told his wife bashed Morrison Elementary as the reason
Mar 22, 2016, 10:12 AM
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he was cheating on her.
Barnes bolted and there was a new elementary in Clemson the next year.
So how much money would have cleared all that up?
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CU Medallion [64589]
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No one's arguing there weren't some positives....
Mar 22, 2016, 7:45 AM
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but the negatives outweighed them IMO particularly the teams poor performance down the stretch with an NCAA tournament birth on the line playing against teams we should have been beating.
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All-In [27374]
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Re: No one's arguing there weren't some positives....
Mar 22, 2016, 7:56 AM
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There were several 'bad breaks' in the last game that didn't help our chances. To Brads credit he didn't harp on this but it was obvious to many that we were not getting any help down the stretch
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CU Medallion [67819]
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Re: No one's arguing there weren't some positives....
Mar 22, 2016, 7:59 AM
[ in reply to No one's arguing there weren't some positives.... ] |
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weak finish was sort of a copy of last years ending. not sure why that is unless talent is thin and guys just tire out over the course of the year. not a good trend in any event
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110%er [7114]
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It's the glaring, incomprehensible...
Mar 22, 2016, 8:25 PM
[ in reply to No one's arguing there weren't some positives.... ] |
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Inconsistency that screams POOR COACHING. POOR FOCUS. POOR MOTIVATOR. We obviously have enough talent to beat quality teams. But they only reached their peak after a big month of underachieving against some mediocre teams, only to slump back down to the same underachieving mediocrity we began with. This coaching staff has proven beyond any doubt to me that they will not develop any positive upward trajectory with the program. They don't know how. They are FRAUDS. Enough is enough!! It was the same with Bowden the season before he got fired.
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Orange Blooded [2457]
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Re: It's the glaring, incomprehensible...
Mar 22, 2016, 9:58 PM
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As much as many would not like to admit it, it is clear the handful of games in January was a fluke. February and March were very much regression to the mean for us.
We hear every year "with *insert player* we will take the next step. Before it was Rooks as a shooter, then DeVoe because he scored 30 a game in 2A ball, then Avry Holmes replacing Rod Hall, and now it is the transfers (nevermind the fact that Mitchell left a NCAA tourney team and shoots 36%, or Thomas had to transfer from a Sweet 16 team a semester into school).
We'll go through the same song and dance of playing ourselves out of the tourney by end of December then fooling fans into thinking things have changed.
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110%er [7718]
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Re: Brad Brownell
Mar 22, 2016, 7:55 AM
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We missed post season not due to our ACC play it was sufficient. We missed post season due to ######## the bed OOC.
UGA UMass and Minnesota were all bad losses.
The last two were TERRIBLE.
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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100 teams made the NCAA and NIT. We were not one of them.
Mar 22, 2016, 8:10 AM
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Everybody expected an NIT bid.
No matter how you spin it, we did NOT exceed expectations, which were extremely low to begin with in Brownell's 6th year. We shouldn't have to contort ourselves like Houdini to conclude we weren't "all that awful."
Good teams make the NCAA Tournament. Mediocre teams make the NIT.
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110%er [7718]
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Re: 100 teams made the NCAA and NIT. We were not one of them.
Mar 22, 2016, 8:16 AM
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I disagree with the last sentence.
Elite teams win the NCAA T
Great teams make the NCAA T
Good teams make the NIT
Mediocre teams sit at home
But either way not making post season in year 6 is not good.
If we dont #### the bed in OOC going 7-5 with 3 bad losses we would be playing right now.
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Orange Blooded [2420]
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CU Medallion [58411]
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So in basketball, "not that awful" is the standard?
Mar 22, 2016, 9:43 AM
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In football, under Dabo, "Best is the standard". Why set the bar so pathetically low in basketball? And to be clear, we've been "not that awful" for five straight years under Brownell, and that IS awful.
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Freshman [3]
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Re: So in basketball, "not that awful" is the standard?
Mar 22, 2016, 10:37 AM
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Technically, we haven't been "not that awful" for the entirety of the basketball program. Not just under Brownell.
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CU Medallion [58411]
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All the more reason to set the bar a little higher.***
Mar 22, 2016, 11:33 AM
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Hall of Famer [21848]
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Re: Brad Brownell
Mar 22, 2016, 10:26 AM
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"Not being a Brownell apologist, but" here are some excuses for him.
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110%er [5513]
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Yeah..... no
Mar 22, 2016, 11:28 AM
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110%er [5381]
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GROUND HOG DAY
Mar 22, 2016, 12:16 PM
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Q: Pete & Repeat were sitting on a log, Pete fell off, who was left?
A: Repeat
Pete & Repeat were sitting on a log, Pete fell off, who was left?
Every year it's the same story....doing about .500, but could be +3 or 4 wins with discipline and better strategy. The "X & O" guy is close to Bigfoot & Loch Ness Monster in terms of reality.
IF BLOSSOMGAME STAYS & with transfers being AS ADVERTISED, then Brownell has absolutely gotta win big next year. If not, DRad needs to be if he extends his contract.
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110%er [7718]
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Re: GROUND HOG DAY
Mar 22, 2016, 12:19 PM
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But if Blossomgame stays wont he just get in the way again and cost us games?
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Varsity [229]
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Re: Brad Brownell
Mar 22, 2016, 12:54 PM
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You post is valid and not without merit. I have never under stood why we have never "fixed" our basketball programs . Each year we take to TigeNet and complain about Basketball. I can not say for sure if we could ever build a winner but we could and should at least go to the NCAA Tournament more often.
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Legend [16251]
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I can give Brownell credit for keeping expectations low
Mar 22, 2016, 1:43 PM
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enough annually to where .500 ball is an over-achieve.
He's a good enough guy I reckon, but he is not growing his skillset as a head coach. After 6 years this is now fully apparent to me, thus I no longer believe that he is adequate for Clemson basketball. His contract is such that he's with us for several more years, and that's unfortunate for fans and the program.
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110%er [7718]
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Re: I can give Brownell credit for keeping expectations low
Mar 22, 2016, 1:45 PM
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We were above 500 this year...
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Hall of Famer [21848]
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Re: I can give Brownell credit for keeping expectations low
Mar 22, 2016, 2:12 PM
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And?
Fans are claiming he over achieved which is the point the poster was making....
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110%er [7718]
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Re: I can give Brownell credit for keeping expectations low
Mar 22, 2016, 2:20 PM
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And the poster stated that .500 ball was an achievement.
People aren't saying that. SOME people have said some parts of this season were an achievement.
Therefore they are saying <.500 ball is an achievement not .500 ball.
What the poster said was false by most accounts.
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Hall of Famer [21848]
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Re: I can give Brownell credit for keeping expectations low
Mar 22, 2016, 2:35 PM
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The poster stated that .500 ball was an over-achievement.
Expectations were so low going into the season that we were picked near the bottom of the ACC this year correct? So wouldn't that lend to the logic that .500 ball is an over-achievement?
So finishing in the middle(10-8 ACC, 17-14 overall) wouldn't be considered over-achieving?
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Starter [356]
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Re: I can give Brownell credit for keeping expectations low
Mar 22, 2016, 5:56 PM
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well, yeah, by "definition," sure, but like we're talking in general here.....
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Legend [16251]
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I guess I kinda lump not being good enough to make the NIT
Mar 22, 2016, 7:18 PM
[ in reply to Re: I can give Brownell credit for keeping expectations low ] |
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into a ".500" team, i.e. middle of the road, mediocre, ho hum, etc. 3 games over .500 is essentially .500. Not really a winning team, not really a losing team.
Wanna guess what next year's over / under number is on ACC projected finish? 12? 13? And the odds we'll go .500 (or thereabouts roughly) yet again, and thus "overachieve" in the process?
I've grown tired of the music being played by this staff. Even moreso when I read the leader's assessment. Shades of TB and JL. It's simply a matter of time before a change is made. I wish it would be sooner but with CBB's large buyout we're likely stuck here for three more seasons.
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110%er [7718]
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Re: I guess I kinda lump not being good enough to make the NIT
Mar 22, 2016, 7:42 PM
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Next years projected finish IF Blossomgame comes back woudl be top half of the league I would think.
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110%er [6676]
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I agree he just does not have the passion for winning that
Mar 22, 2016, 6:25 PM
[ in reply to I can give Brownell credit for keeping expectations low ] |
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is needed to create a championship type team. He does not have "bring your own guts" leadership capacity, for some reason. He acts like he is on some kind of anti-depressant med, which is alright, but not for a coach of a major college with expectations!
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All-In [44044]
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I agree with you, but good luck arguing with our mostly delusional fan base.
Mar 22, 2016, 1:52 PM
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They expect to go to NCAA Tournaments with regularity despite having facilities near the bottom of the ACC and coaching salary near the bottom of the ACC. A few good years under Barnes and Purnell means that they have unfair expectations for other coaches.
I agree that we should have higher expectations for our basketball program, but we shouldn't expect to compete with the top of the league year in and year out if we aren't prepared to invest more in basketball.
And no, updating our facilities once every so often isn't enough.
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Hall of Famer [21848]
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Re: I agree with you, but good luck arguing with our mostly delusional fan base.
Mar 22, 2016, 1:55 PM
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are you bipolar?
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All-In [44044]
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No, it's pretty simple.
Mar 22, 2016, 3:32 PM
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1. We neglect basketball and should be spending more money on it.
2. I think Brownell has been a good value relative to what we pay him and the facilities we have provided him.
3. With that said, I think it is time for a coaching change.
4. BUT, that change needs to be in the form of an upgrade. We need to spend more to get a proven coach with success on this level, not an assistant coach or a coach who was a mid-major success.
5. If we are going to continue to be cheap about basketball, then we might as well give Brownell another year or two.
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Orange Blooded [2760]
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Judge - you are very fair but I still disagree
Mar 22, 2016, 5:51 PM
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on a few points.
1) agree whole-heartedly. much more.
2) agree although I think he has done better than you.
3) The man needs the opportunity to use the facility upgrades to his advantage, as did Dabo.
4) If we get a major HC with the record you are after, he will be here a few years and gone to the next big job. While some think that is a good strategy, I don't.
5) I think it is more complicated in some ways. First, it is not just getting a "proven HC" but all the support a high quality, proven HC will require. See #1.
BB has had some poor luck with his coaching staff early on, which put him behind the curve initially. I think he is developing a good crop of coaches and is in a better position to deal with someone leaving, if they do. He also does not go the AAU route and this requires much more time to develop a recruiting pipeline. He will not cheat and I appreciate a man willing to be ethical to the point it could cost him his job. That kind of character breeds success over time.
His recruiting is improving slowly but steadily; the new upgrades should pay dividends in this area soon. If not, I'll agree it is time for him to go.
One major failure of those who dismiss BB is that even with inferior talent to the elite teams, Clemson is seldom blown out of games. We were literally in position to win every game in 2016, which is something I don't think I've ever seen out of a Clemson team. That speaks to coaching, preparation and player development.
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Starter [356]
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Team Captain [453]
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Its not delusional
Mar 22, 2016, 3:58 PM
[ in reply to I agree with you, but good luck arguing with our mostly delusional fan base. ] |
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There are a lot of arguments to be made about is he or is he not a good coach, has he had to deal with more or less obstacles than any Clemson coach. There are points to be made both pro and con for Brownell in those areas.
What is not disputable or delusional to think is that his post season success is worse than any other coach at Clemson over the past 5 decades save for Larry Shyatt.
Foster - 9 Seasons - 3 NIT bids, One NCAA bid (Elite 8)
Ellis - 10 Seasons - 5 NIT bids, 3 NCAA bids (1 sweet 16)
Barnes - 4 Seasons - 1 NIT bid, 3 NCAA bids (1 sweet 16)
Shyatt - 5 Seasons - 1 NIT bid, 0 NCAA bids
Purnell - 7 Seasons - 3 NIT bids, 3 NCAA bids
Brownell - 6 seasons - 1 NIT bid, 1 NCAA bid
Simply put, Clemson, while not a basketball power, should expect post-season play more than once every three seasons and an NCAA berth more than once every 6 seasons.
What's the saying, "insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results"? If you are fine with 16-19 wins every year a middle of the pack ACC finish and being on the NIT bubble, Brownell is your man. If you'd prefer to see at least as much success as many other coaches have proven is possible here, he should be gone today. 6 years of the same thing tells me exactly what I'm going to get in year 7. It's not like those of us who want to move on from this regime haven't been patient. This isn't year 3 or 4, it's year 7 and if Blossomgame isn't back next year I suspect the making the NIT will be a questionable prospect.
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Orange Blooded [2565]
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Re: Brad Brownell
Mar 22, 2016, 4:31 PM
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Equally damaging losses--if not worse--occurred in February and March. Brad and his staff must know that. If you want to observe success for the non-NCAA teams from the ACC--look at GT/VT & FSU.
All of them got tougher and better in the late season; Clemson's lads faltered very badly. Brad needs a change on the staff or two and he must recruit some talent across the lineup. We cannot afford many more projects to nurture for 2/3/4 seasons. The need is now-the next season to have a positive break through
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Orange Blooded [4095]
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I think its more of a mind thing
Mar 22, 2016, 5:07 PM
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Mental toughness, "girly man" like attitude ... whatever ... Think we got the talent, but its all in the head IMHO ... maybe its the "culture" of then team ...
http://www.hulu.com/watch/4184
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All-In [44044]
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I don't think we have anywhere close to the talent we need.
Mar 24, 2016, 12:04 PM
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The fact that we had some great games (wins against Duke, Miami, Louisville, etc.) as well as some really bad games (UMass, Minnesota, Georgia losses) is proof that we don't have the horses to play consistently good basketball. I think it's clear that Brownell is a good coach when it comes to improving the skill set of his players. We recruit near the bottom of the ACC, but we typically finish in the middle of the ACC. Expecting him to somehow get those lower rated players to consistently compete with the superstars at the top of the league is unfair.
What is fair is to expect him to recruit better. I think Brownell would be great if he had better talent. Give him average ACC talent and I think he would have us in the NCAAs every year. He hasn't shown in six years to be able to recruit that talent, which is why I think we need a change. Since one doesn't seem to be coming this offseason, all we can hope is that the new arena and practice facility give recruiting a much-needed boost.
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110%er [7718]
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Re: I don't think we have anywhere close to the talent we need.
Mar 24, 2016, 12:18 PM
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The guy you are replying to is a troll. He is a chicken fan who posts over the top nonsense.
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Orange Blooded [4095]
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This guy ClemAlum07 has some serious mental issues
Mar 25, 2016, 9:40 PM
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Get of my case you #######
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Orange Blooded [4504]
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Common sense doesn't go over well on the board.***
Mar 22, 2016, 6:27 PM
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Orange Blooded [4757]
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Why, that's practically Bowdenesque
Mar 23, 2016, 7:12 AM
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And we're all glad he's still our head football co....
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All-In [48078]
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Those are the positives...
Mar 23, 2016, 9:37 AM
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The negative is that we aren't in the tournament again and we had some ugly losses which made it so we weren't invited to even the NIT. No matter how we cut it, the year was not a success. The novelty is that we had some good wins in he mix.
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110%er [7485]
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actually we finished T7.....tiebreakers are only used for
Mar 23, 2016, 11:54 AM
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tournament seeding purposes. We were tied with VT for 7th. With UL out of the tournament, they became the 6th seed and we became 7th but our official position is T7.
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MVP [508]
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Re: Brad Brownell
Mar 23, 2016, 12:27 PM
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And how many years has he been onboard now? Should have had us at least in the top six for sure!
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Legend [17599]
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Discounting early losses is fair in retrospect ...
Mar 25, 2016, 9:51 PM
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If it makes you feel better. The question is who do we lose to early next year? Newberry? Lander? Limestone? Savannah State? They all count. Those early losses kept us from being taken seriously by selection committees even with a winning ACC record. Especially against teams on which every single player would dream of winning a scholarship to Clemson. They all count.
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