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CU Medallion [56005]
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This new Pope is one crazy son of a #####.
Oct 28, 2014, 10:01 AM
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Pope Francis declares evolution and Big Bang theory are right and God isn't 'a magician with a magic wand'
Speaking at the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, the Pope made comments which experts said put an end to the “pseudo theories” of creationism and intelligent design that some argue were encouraged by his predecessor, Benedict XVI.
Francis explained that both scientific theories were not incompatible with the existence of a creator – arguing instead that they “require it”.
“When we read about Creation in Genesis, we run the risk of imagining God was a magician, with a magic wand able to do everything. But that is not so,” Francis said.
He added: “He created human beings and let them develop according to the internal laws that he gave to each one so they would reach their fulfilment.
“The Big Bang, which today we hold to be the origin of the world, does not contradict the intervention of the divine creator but, rather, requires it.
“Evolution in nature is not inconsistent with the notion of creation, because evolution requires the creation of beings that evolve.”
The Catholic Church has long had a reputation for being anti-science – most famously when Galileo faced the inquisition and was forced to retract his “heretic” theory that the Earth revolved around the Sun.
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Oculus Spirit [78823]
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not crazy but practical
Oct 28, 2014, 10:09 AM
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He is doing a great job.
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110%er [7013]
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If you got to have a Pope in your life, he is the Pope to
Oct 28, 2014, 10:16 AM
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have.
#Xchristianandnevergoingbacksohelpmegod.
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All-In [34100]
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Re: This new Pope is one crazy son of a #####.
Oct 28, 2014, 10:50 AM
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“Evolution in nature is not inconsistent with the notion of creation, because evolution requires the creation of beings that evolve.”
Good for the Pope. He doesn't think that each species was created with God's magic wand.
On the other hand, he thinks that the first beings that evolved were created by God's magic wand. So really he just took the magic wand argument back one step.
Once we determine how those beings really appeared, the Pope will have to move the magic wand argument back yet another step.
Progress.
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All-In [28802]
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Doesn't everyone have this problem?
Oct 28, 2014, 1:11 PM
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For any scientific way of thinking, we have to start with certain assumptions about what there is (which inherently bracket certain other ways of thinking) that aren't argued for. For empirical science, the assumption is always going to be that there space and time have worked the way it does today, such that, if something exists today, it's going to have a history of development. So there really isn't an easy way out of the "infinite magic wand regress" for science, either.
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All-In [34100]
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No.
Oct 28, 2014, 1:15 PM
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Not everyone proposes a magic wand in lieu of magic-wand evidence.
For empirical science, the assumption is always going to be that there space and time have worked the way it does today, such that, if something exists today, it's going to have a history of development.
A history of development is not an assumption. It's a conclusion based on evidence. And scientists have expressed uncertainty about whether space and time always works the way it does here and now.
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All-In [28802]
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There is no evidence of an infinite history of development
Oct 28, 2014, 1:30 PM
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There is only evidence of a finite history of development, in accordance with the parameters set by inference for scientific research. Empirical scientists seem to pretty easily forget their metaphysical commitments when they want to accuse others of being overly metaphysical.
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All-In [34100]
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Please re-read my last post.
Oct 28, 2014, 1:32 PM
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Especially this part:
"scientists have expressed uncertainty about whether space and time always works the way it does here and now."
That's the opposite of belief in an infinite history of development.
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All-In [28802]
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I'm not so sure that's it's not just incoherent
Oct 28, 2014, 1:35 PM
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Ie. "Our basic assumptions underlying our research programme may not actually be the case, and they can't be proven according to our research anyway. So when there's evidence of something that doesn't fit into our parameters, we'll faithfull assume that it eventually will, even if other explanations are already available."
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All-In [34100]
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What are you talking about.
Oct 28, 2014, 1:38 PM
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Are you talking about the time before the Big Bang? If so, the only statements I've ever heard from scientists amount to "we don't know." Because there's a grand total of zero information about it.
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All-In [28802]
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I'm talking about any scientifically unexplained phenomenon
Oct 28, 2014, 1:46 PM
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But also about scientific reduction of what could be much richer phenomena into scientifically digestable facts.
Message was edited by: camcgee®
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All-In [34100]
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OK. Then see my previous posts.
Oct 28, 2014, 1:50 PM
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Admitting a lack of evidence and failing to explain something is the opposite of explaining the unknown via magic wand.
And, to more directly address your initial point: No, not everyone has the problem of needing to have a magic wand. The scientific answer is to admit ignorance.
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Legend [18003]
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All-In [28802]
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Part of the problem is...
Oct 28, 2014, 4:02 PM
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dismissing everything that isn't "factual" because it isn't certain (or doesn't appear to be certain). If there's extraneous stuff that complicates thing, science wants to reduce those things away in order to get down to what it can call, according to its parameters, "factual." But if that's your only way of understanding things, then your world is bound to be pretty impoverished.
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Legend [18003]
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We want science to be less factual?
Oct 28, 2014, 7:11 PM
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And I think you misunderstand how science uses that "extraneous stuff." (Not sure any scientist would say anything is "extraneous", rather everything has its purpose.)
Not to mention find me a scientist that finds the world impoverished. To a person, they'd say understanding your world and Universe actually opens the mind to the wonders found within.
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All-In [26968]
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I believe the Catholic church will see a resurgence
Oct 28, 2014, 11:52 AM
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in popularity, rising to levels never seen before, all over the world. Every time I hear this pope talk, I gain confidence that this is true.
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All-In [34100]
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In accordance with the prophecy.
Oct 28, 2014, 12:01 PM
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All-In [26968]
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Well, how else would I know?***
Oct 28, 2014, 12:03 PM
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110%er [7013]
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All-In [28802]
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Who the heck wrote that first line?
Oct 28, 2014, 12:58 PM
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You know it's going to be an article in favor of liberal Catholics- and it's probably not going to be an article that's well informed about Catholicism- when it starts out "the Pope made comments which experts said put an end to the “pseudo theories” of creationism and intelligent design that some argue were encouraged by his predecessor, Benedict XVI," and ends, "The Catholic Church has long had a reputation for being anti-science – most famously when Galileo faced the inquisition and was forced to retract his “heretic” theory that the Earth revolved around the Sun."
Meanwhile, this was the reaction from Catholic press: http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/pope-francis-lauds-benedict-xvis-emphasis-on-harmony-of-faith-and-science/. In fact, there's never been official opposition to evolution among Catholics.
It's like the people who know the least about religion are hired to report on it.
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All-In [34100]
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Re: Who the heck wrote that first line?
Oct 28, 2014, 1:04 PM
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Key phrase is bolded here: the "pseudo theories” of creationism and intelligent design that some argue were encouraged by his predecessor, Benedict XVI, Look for the "some argue" sort of phrase when an article wants to establish a fact without providing real evidence.
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CU Medallion [56005]
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Has there been unofficial opposition to evolution among
Oct 28, 2014, 1:05 PM
[ in reply to Who the heck wrote that first line? ] |
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Catholics? If so, wouldn't it be meaningful for the Pope to vocally support evolutionary science?
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All-In [28802]
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You mean like in an encyclical 60 years ago?
Oct 28, 2014, 1:27 PM
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humani_generis
Or what about in an address to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences 20 years ago?
"In his encyclical Humani Generis (1950), my predecessor Pius XII has already affirmed that there is no conflict between evolution and the doctrine of the faith regarding man and his vocation, provided that we do not lose sight of certain fixed points.... Today, more than a half-century after the appearance of that encyclical, some new findings lead us toward the recognition of evolution as more than a hypothesis. In fact it is remarkable that this theory has had progressively greater influence on the spirit of researchers, following a series of discoveries in different scholarly disciplines. The convergence in the results of these independent studies—which was neither planned nor sought—constitutes in itself a significant argument in favor of the theory."
Or what about (Benedict) calling the conflict between Christianity and science "absurd" seven years ago?
"Currently, I see in Germany, but also in the United States, a somewhat fierce debate raging between so-called "creationism" and evolutionism, presented as though they were mutually exclusive alternatives: those who believe in the Creator would not be able to conceive of evolution, and those who instead support evolution would have to exclude God. This antithesis is absurd because, on the one hand, there are so many scientific proofs in favour of evolution which appears to be a reality we can see and which enriches our knowledge of life and being as such. But on the other, the doctrine of evolution does not answer every query, especially the great philosophical question: where does everything come from? And how did everything start which ultimately led to man? I believe this is of the utmost importance. This is what I wanted to say in my lecture at Regensburg: that reason should be more open, that it should indeed perceive these facts but also realize that they are not enough to explain all of reality. They are insufficient. Our reason is broader and can also see that our reason is not basically something irrational, a product of irrationality, but that reason, creative reason, precedes everything and we are truly the reflection of creative reason. We were thought of and desired; thus, there is an idea that preceded me, a feeling that preceded me, that I must discover, that I must follow, because it will at last give meaning to my life. This seems to me to be the first point: to discover that my being is truly reasonable, it was thought of, it has meaning. And my important mission is to discover this meaning, to live it and thereby contribute a new element to the great cosmic harmony conceived of by the Creator."
I suppose it's good that long-standing Catholic (and more generically orthodox Christian) doctrine is actually being reported by the secular press now, but it's kind of silly when they act like this is surprising, or the first time it's being said. This is especially disappointing when the last pope was so much more influential a theologian and such a deeper thinker. I guess the current pope's style and retail appeal is better at getting people's attention, and there's something to be said for that, too.
Message was edited by: camcgee®
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CU Guru [1581]
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Respectfully, his grace...
Oct 28, 2014, 3:07 PM
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is wrong. God created man to be awesome stewards of the universe but man had other ideas. The evolution of man has been nothing short of dissapointment and sorrow. We continue to devolve rather than evolve. Without medicine, lifespans are actually growing shorter. We destroy nearly everything we touch and increasingly we are collectively turning our backs on Him.
The evolution of man is the result of living in a cursed world.
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110%er [7013]
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^^^^I want to party with this guy!***
Oct 28, 2014, 3:09 PM
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CU Guru [1581]
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woo hoo!
Oct 28, 2014, 4:01 PM
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.
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All-TigerNet [11161]
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CU Guru [1581]
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just keeping it real, he...
Oct 28, 2014, 4:00 PM
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wasn't. I try not to be too serious on here but I do have beliefs and the pope seems to like to marginalize some of them recently.
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Hall of Famer [24687]
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So GOD was an alien doing DNA enhancement?... I'll wait.***
Oct 29, 2014, 1:38 PM
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Starter [374]
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Re: Respectfully, his grace...
Oct 31, 2014, 9:22 AM
[ in reply to Respectfully, his grace... ] |
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Yeah you're talking about society. That's different from biological evolution. We've changed very little the past few ten thousand years.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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The Catholic Church is just a long set of delayed redactions***
Oct 29, 2014, 4:36 PM
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Hall of Famer [24687]
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Is redactions a symptom of cover-ups...?***
Oct 30, 2014, 1:01 AM
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Mostly stuff they actually believed, and we're forced to
Oct 30, 2014, 11:21 AM
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realize was false. Or social values forced doctrinal change so the church could stay relevant.
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