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Oculus Spirit [97664]
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This is why I hold Trump and AOC in equal disdain
Nov 13, 2020, 7:25 AM
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The Dems are no different than they've ever been. They've always been radical. For decades. They have that wing on the far left fringes of their party. Always have. And yet democrats have led for years. They've had the White House. They've had Congress. They've had both at once. And yet here we are. More secure and prosperous as ever until covid anyway.
Now the right has always had Trump's. They've never come to power. But Trump did. And that's fine. We're designed to handle a Trump, an Obama, or even an AOC in the Whitehouse. But these extremists, from both sides, are winning the middle and the people who keep us stable. The AOCs of the world have won their share of reasonable people. And now Trump is now doing the same.
Anyway here's an example of a once reasonable person who has been pulled far right. I can give plenty of examples from the left too. But this was today's example. I blame the internet really. There was a time when the people saw politicians as extreme. Now we have a situation where the people are more extreme than the politicians. The good news is the people are still being rational. But Trump has not accomplished his promises. He can't any more than AOC could. Anyway.... THIS IS THE TRUMP EFFECT. And the people are responding.
Just sad and dangerous to see the right acting like the left. This man knows enough history to see through this.
https://twitter.com/jonvoight/status/1326323889417322497?s=20
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Heisman Winner [119571]
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Hollywood people...pffftt!***
Nov 13, 2020, 7:32 AM
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Heisman Winner [111381]
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Re: This is why I hold Trump and AOC in equal disdain
Nov 13, 2020, 7:42 AM
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Heck James Woods has an IQ of 180 and he is in Love with Trump. I think for some of these washe du actorss who have not had any real paying work in years, they are holding on tightly to the last of their money because their prospects in Hollywood look bleak. You can make the same argument for any trump supporter living in Ohio that spent most of his years working in a GM plant, and now it is gone.
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Oculus Spirit [97664]
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So does Madonna.
Nov 13, 2020, 7:47 AM
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IQ is overrated. It measures your capacity to learn. Which is called intelligence. But having that capability also leads to being irrationally swayed as well, which actually makes one less "smart". Lot of brilliant crazy people. Many. That's why.
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Heisman Winner [111381]
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Re: So does Madonna.
Nov 13, 2020, 7:49 AM
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very very true. But just on the fundamental issue of trump being a pathological liar and a fraud as a businessman, I mean these are tangible things you can point to and people still dismiss it.
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CU Medallion [59974]
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People want politicians to be held accountable
Nov 13, 2020, 7:44 AM
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and they are not. Here is how I feel and oddly enough Glenn Beck put it well and I think there are many of us that feel the same way. I really dont care if you like Beck or think he is a kook, everything he says here is spot on.
https://www.theblaze.com/glenn-tv/corruption-goes-unchecked
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Oculus Spirit [97664]
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I am of the opinion two wrongs don't make a right.
Nov 13, 2020, 8:49 AM
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But he's right, and that's why we have Trump. Are we any better off today? Not talking about wallets, but as a country?
You want to check corruption, vote out every single person who's been in Congress more than two terms. Both parties. And most importantly, VOTE IN PRIMARIES. This is where we lose so much good potential leadership. I make it a point in every primary to dig deep and learn about someone new, that I know nothing about. It's an exercise I always do before voting for the incumbent, who we all know, is well funded, and has name recognition. None of that matters. I look at the incumbent's record, and the ideas of the unknown, ill-funded challenger. Most of the time I break for the challenger. Not always though. Because when the general election comes, your chance to effect change is only us and them, dem or pub. The people who only vote in the general election are why we're so polarized. I make sure I vote for the right pub before making that pick against a dem. In 2016 that pub was Ted Cruz, not Trump. I picked Trump over Hillary as a us vs. them vote, but it was not ideal. Not my choice really. There was no primary in SC this time for the GOP, (A BIG PROBLEM AS THERE SHOULD ALWAYS BE A PRIMARY). That put me in a very bad spot. Had I been afforded the opportunity to vote against Trump and for another Republican in the primary, at least after having my voice heard there I would be more inclined to vote for Trump in the general against Joe. I abstained instead of making a vote for one of two bad choices. There was no lesser of two evils this time. It was perfectly balanced.
But if you're going to check corruption with corruption, check media disinformation with media disinformation, then you're not accomplishing anything.
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Oculus Spirit [80978]
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Hall of Famer [20518]
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Re: This is why I hold Trump and AOC in equal disdain
Nov 13, 2020, 7:50 AM
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What on Earth led you to believe Jon Voight was stable?
History tells us again and again Hollywood actors are some of the most unstable creatures on the planet. He's Angelina Jolie's dad, for cryin' out loud...her Daddy Issues have Daddy Issues.
But yeah, I agree in general...it's the old maxim: the problem with crazy people is, they make sane people crazy. And fringers definitely pour fuel all over that fire.
I just think the current pull on the world order is coming from the far right now. It can come from either direction, it just used to come mostly from the left because the Soviets were Commies and their sphere of influence was basically trying to tug at the established capitalist order with leftist power-to-the-people populism.
Now there's a lot of bad actors in the old Soviet sphere of influence that have gone hard the other way after the Soviet Bloc collapsed, and the tug we're seeing is from the right-wing populist direction. In much the same way we had the Red Scare of the '50's the next big challenge our culture is going to have to repel seems to nationalists and racists and Fascists again...but stuff is cyclical; we'll probably be back having to fend off the Commies again a decade from now.
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110%er [5646]
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Re: This is why I hold Trump and AOC in equal disdain
Nov 13, 2020, 9:08 AM
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Indeed, so sick of seeing A-lister sober now after rehab. Only to get on drugs/alcohol/whatever again. Get sober again, go on the View and Jimmy Kimmel, talking about their life, blah, blah, blah.
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All-In [42020]
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Re: This is why I hold Trump and AOC in equal disdain
Nov 13, 2020, 7:55 AM
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My only disagreement here is that I don't think Trump is actually what Trump pretends to be a lot of times from a ideological sense. I think a lot is an act to win over that fringe base you describe. His sociopathy and narcissism are authentic, though, and there's the danger.
I don't see AOC as having those qualities, but she certainly is radical, and IMO, too radical to take the White House one day. That is, if she stays in her current form. She's also young and her politics might adapt over time. They'll have to if she wants the White House, or she'll have to get lucky and face a #### candidate like Trump did with Hillary.
Where you're dead right--and what so many here will refuse to acknowledge--is that Trump didn't accomplish his promises. He scored a few here and there, but for the most part, he didn't even attempt most of what he claimed to do. That's not exactly uncharted waters for a politician (and make no mistake about it, Trump is a politician--a very sinister one), but Trump's ineptitude surpassed all other presidents in modern history.
This is one of the greatest failures of a presidency in history if not the greatest failure. And that's how history will remember it.
The left do need to pay close attention to this election and be wise about their victory. Don't swing radical left on all of us ala AOC, or the moderates will pull them back good and hard just like they did to the Trumpies.
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Lot o points [155632]
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I'm just stream-of-consciousness posting here, so forgive
Nov 13, 2020, 8:56 AM
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me if this is a total tangent, but I would really love to know what motivates an AOC. Trump's easy....we all know what motivates him. It's the ones that come dressed as Mother Teresa that worry me the most. DC isn't a good place for good people and given what it takes to win and stay there, I have trouble believing that someone in it for purely magnanimous reasons would want to stay in it long. Maybe I'm overly cynical, but I see an AOC and just think "c'mon, no one wants to change the world that massively because they just care about people".
Makes me wish for a single day of "Liar, Liar" to take place so we could really get to know our representatives.
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All-In [42020]
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I would wager she's a naive ideologue, perhaps?
Nov 13, 2020, 9:03 AM
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I don't doubt that her intentions and heart are probably pure. She's probably had people in her ear throughout her teens and 20s pushing her to rise up and take hold of these ideas she has to save the world and all those around her. She's smart and probably kicked ### with that ideological sense in the environments she was in before DC.
But I think we all know that a lot of her ideas aren't practical or a one-size-fits-all for America, and she isn't in touch with your average Joe out in bum #### Mississippi or Nebraska. I think the higher-ups in the Dem party know this about her as well, and they're trying to use as much as they can as a really big dog that a lot of leftists want to pet but that they know they have to keep on a tight leash so she doesn't accidentally run over some little kid.
I'll be curious to see where she is in 10, 20 years. Hardened and jaded by the seediness and corruption of DC? Now a full time player in that corruption? Maybe calmed down with her big picture ideology? Or maybe just finally voted out because America wants to swing back the other way.
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: I'm just stream-of-consciousness posting here, so forgive
Nov 13, 2020, 1:12 PM
[ in reply to I'm just stream-of-consciousness posting here, so forgive ] |
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Obed,
I think she is young and idealist. She really does want to make the world a better place. And she is wildly popular for it. For someone as young as she is, being elected to Congress, by large margins, must be pretty heady stuff.
The question is can she learn patience while she gains the power necessary to make changes. Or will she get disillusioned & burned out when she accumulates a few significant losses. That remains to be seen.
I will say this. I think she can be good for the Democratic Party. It is good to have someone pointing out how much better things could be - to pull the old school Democrats a little to the left. There plenty of obstacles preventing them from going to far left, but they should be reminded that those ideas are out there and that they should examine them rationally for the steps that could be achieved.
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Oculus Spirit [97664]
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Trump and AOC are more alike between the ears than different
Nov 13, 2020, 9:03 AM
[ in reply to Re: This is why I hold Trump and AOC in equal disdain ] |
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When you go far off the reservation both right and left, there's a commonality in the leaders on the far edges. It ain't pretty. And functionally, they both lead to the same thing, they just take opposite approaches to get there.
Trick is not not let them become as important as they want you to believe they are.
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All-In [42020]
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Re: Trump and AOC are more alike between the ears than different
Nov 13, 2020, 9:04 AM
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I'll disagree here as not is AOC far more intelligent than Trump, I think her motives are actually altruistic. Naïve and impractical and thus potentially harmful, but she at least means well.
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Oculus Spirit [97664]
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I disagree. We all have ways to be swayed.
Nov 13, 2020, 9:10 AM
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I think neither Trump nor AOC are altruistic, at all. They're power hungry opportunists who seek power, the same power and control, through opposite means. You can cloak your thirst for power in altruism for the poor and hungry, or the patriotic, and proud. Hitler or Lenin. Doesn't matter. You end up in the same place.
We are built to survive both, as long as the people are rational and educated.
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Lot o points [155632]
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Lot o points [155632]
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Oculus Spirit [80978]
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: This is why I hold Trump and AOC in equal disdain
Nov 13, 2020, 1:05 PM
[ in reply to Re: This is why I hold Trump and AOC in equal disdain ] |
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Cat,
I think you make a couple of good points. AOC is too radical for most Americans, but she is young and growing up (politically) before our eyes. That is sometimes not a gracious process.
Occasionally she makes statements that are politically counterproductive, but I think she is toning that down pretty well over all, especially given how she has become such a target for the right. I also don't think she is aiming at a higher office - at least not yet.
As far as Trump is concerned, I don't think he ever took the Presidency that seriously. He certainly did not take his promises seriously. He never wanted to do the hard work necessary to fulfill those promises, so he brushed them aside after his election.
That is why the Virus crushed him so bad. Here was a responsibility that he could not just dismiss, although he tried. When it came to the hard work necessary to actually have a positive impact, he shrugged it off onto the governors and proved himself incompetent.
The saddest thing is that, like you mentioned, so many of his supporters chose to ignore the reality because it conflicted with their fantasy of their savior.
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110%er [5646]
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Re: This is why I hold Trump and AOC in equal disdain
Nov 13, 2020, 9:14 AM
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I was searching something yesterday and ended up on Reddit > Socialism. I'm not a Reddit person, and I suppose the internet is filled with this chit, but the volume of bullchit online seems to be unimaginable.
I agree that social media, fake news, etc. are a big problem. Potentially too big to overcome. One reason is that so many people make money off clicks. And an easy way to get clicks is to appeal to emotion and division. I've said this for years and it continues to hold water.
If you go back in time and want one person/entity to blame, Apple is a good target. Not that Apple could see what would become of the phone and social media, but they were a prime enabler.
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: This is why I hold Trump and AOC in equal disdain
Nov 13, 2020, 1:18 PM
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NC,
I have to agree with you (it makes me itchy).
Social media and the phone have turned up the volume on the extremes.
But there is a human nature consideration here as well. A larger portion of the population don't want to have to think to hard. They want to come to conclusion quickly and based on intuition rather than evidence. I think intuition works much better in person than on social media.
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Orange Blooded [2692]
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Two totally different animals, same results
Nov 13, 2020, 10:01 AM
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Unfortunately many people like Voigt believe what they want to believe because they are captured by the siren songs of partisan dogma. At the heart of your point is a struggle to achieve a saner, less partisan realism against a backdrop that features so much wild hysterical vitriol coming from two directions.
One feeds the beast what they want to hear, which is defiant populist rhetoric that paints a nostalgic vision of a 20th century American monoculture that never really existed, while vilifying the media and the administrative state as the source of our problems.
The other fills the hearts of utopian idealists with the lofty yet improbable dreams of a culturally homogenous, climate-controlled life where the equity-above-all mandate softens the Darwinian forces of our capitalist society through more rigorous government regulation.
These aren’t the same world views at all. They both distort reality and plant fictions in order to win minds. Because our sense-making apparatus is so easily manipulated, people are easily swayed into whichever dogmatic camp fits their current mindset.
The power of distortion is what ultimately moves the needle left or right.
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: Two totally different animals, same results
Nov 13, 2020, 1:20 PM
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Por,
Man, but what sweet marrow we could find in the middle of those two extremes.
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: This is why I hold Trump and AOC in equal disdain
Nov 13, 2020, 12:53 PM
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Tiggity,
I am afraid that Jon Voight was a extremist wack job before Trump or social media. I don't think we can gain any pulse on America from his latest rantings. He has always been on the fringe.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: This is why I hold Trump and AOC in equal disdain
Nov 13, 2020, 12:57 PM
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He makes me happy Biden won. That was great.
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