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CU Guru [1198]
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Brownell Year 3 Versus Purnell Year 3
Feb 8, 2013, 11:51 AM
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Oliver Purnell was just 7-9 and 8th in the ACC in his 3rd year.
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Orange Blooded [3121]
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Re: Brownell Year 3 Versus Purnell Year 3
Feb 8, 2013, 12:00 PM
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A couple of things here. Looking at our schedule, we will not make it to 2 games below .500 in the ACC this year. It seems you were hinting we might make it there or better, but that is simply not going to happen. We're 4-6 in the conference right now, and games that look highly likely to be losses include NCSU, Miami, @UMD, UNC, @VT, and @Miami. That puts us around 6-12 in the ACC and a sub-.500 record overall... significantly worse than Purnell in his 3rd year.
Second, Purnell basically had to build this program from scratch. We were a dumpster fire before he got here. Meanwhile, BB took over a team that had been to 3 consecutive NCAA tournaments under OP. Brownell was able to make the tourney his first year with OP's players, but hasn't even sniffed the tournament since then.
I like BB, but his inability to recruit and prepare his players on a consistent basis is the reason he won't be successful here.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Point! This guy gets it***
Feb 9, 2013, 8:08 AM
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CU Guru [1038]
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OP followed Larry Shyatt, Brownell was left a MUCH better
Feb 8, 2013, 12:01 PM
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situation. Team had been to two straight NCAA's. Everybody knows how down the program was when OP stepped in after Shyatt.
We need to wait 2 more years, give BB a chance to have two full senior classes of his own and see what direction the program is heading.
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110%er [6219]
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Re: OP followed Larry Shyatt, Brownell was left a MUCH better
Feb 8, 2013, 12:04 PM
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I wouldn't agree with that at all. Cupboard nearly as empty for Brownell as it was for OP. Yes, he had a couple of solid seniors... But that was it.
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Hall of Famer [22386]
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Stitt, Grant, Young, Smith, Booker, Jennings.
Feb 8, 2013, 12:10 PM
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2 seniors, 2 juniors, and 2 sophomores.
Much better than what Shyatt left us.
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All-In [28802]
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that was actually a very talented team***
Feb 8, 2013, 12:31 PM
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All-In [28802]
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I'm not so sure about that...
Feb 8, 2013, 12:31 PM
[ in reply to Re: OP followed Larry Shyatt, Brownell was left a MUCH better ] |
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it may be true that we had some attrition when Brownell came in and OP left, which cause our underclassmen depth to go down. But there was still enough on Brownell's first team to make it to the tournament, whereas we were struggling just to win four conference games under Shyatt.
I remember how terrible Shyatt left things, because Purnell's first year (2003- 2004) was my first year at Clemson. We finished 10- 18 with 3 ACC wins. Chris Hobbs was our best player. We beat UNC at home, but we lost by 15 to South Carolina. You could literally walk into Littlejohn at any time during the game and go down to the floor.
By the next year under Purnell, we were 16- 16 with 5 wins in conference. Sharrod Ford blew up for 15 points/ game, and Purnell's recruits (remember the Energy Twins? Mays and Perry?) were starting to have an effect. We beat South Carolina, then beat Maryland three times. I think that was also the year of the infamous Olu Babalola three pointer, followed by the Shawan Robinson steal and Sharrod Ford dunk at the buzzer to beat VT. You couldn't just show up and go to the floor every game anymore.
Then, by the third year, we had four players who averaged double figures in scoring (Akingbala, Hammonds, Hamilton, and Robinson). Clemson won 19 games, which was the most since 98, and they won 7 games in conference which was the most wince 97. We beat South Carolina by 19 that year, and beat a really good Wake team in overtime by 1.
Then, in my senior year, we won 24 games, including a 10-6 record in conference which put us in third in ACC standing at the end of the year. We also finished ranked #22. That was also the year we beat Duke in the ACC semis and lost by 5 against UNC in the finals. It finally looked like we might win one at Chapel Hill, but we ended up losing to #3 UNC in double overtime. I had forgotten what an exciting time that was to be a Clemson basketball fan.
Hopefully Brownell's trajectory will be similar.
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110%er [5446]
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Thanks for the recap of all those special moments.
Feb 8, 2013, 12:46 PM
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You brought back great memories!
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Orange Blooded [2441]
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All-In [28802]
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all of those tournament losses
Feb 8, 2013, 12:50 PM
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Weren't we up a good bit in every single one of those games?
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Orange Blooded [2441]
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The Villanova one was the worst because we were
Feb 8, 2013, 1:03 PM
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a 5 seed that year, and had just come off beating Duke in the ACC semi-finals. We were also up 18 points at one point. Some had picked us to go the final four that year but most had us going to at least the sweet sixteen.
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Letterman [256]
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By far the most complete team at Clemson in my lifetime
Feb 8, 2013, 1:06 PM
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That meltdown in the second half against Villanova was a huge opportunity missed. Part of it might have been having gone all the way to the ACC champ game and having a war with UNC again. That team could have made a really deep run, hell Nova made it to the sweet sixteen themselves. We had the right balance of shooting, guard play, and inside presence, not to mention pretty decent depth. We really should have gone 2-3 with UNC who had the best roster in America that year and won it all. A real sign of how capable that team was.
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CU Guru [1746]
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Brownell did inherit a better group of guys than Purnell but
Feb 8, 2013, 1:12 PM
[ in reply to Re: OP followed Larry Shyatt, Brownell was left a MUCH better ] |
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Brownell plays a much different style of ball and Purnell's guys are not as suited for playing Brown-ball.
That team took him to the NCAAT and probably would've had a better record with Purnell (thats speculation, but probably wouldve happened that way...at least BB won tho).
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Hall of Famer [22386]
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I think we'll know for sure after next year if he can get it
Feb 8, 2013, 12:05 PM
[ in reply to OP followed Larry Shyatt, Brownell was left a MUCH better ] |
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done. 6 years is too long to wait on a basketball coach that puts only 5 guys on the floor at once.
We may have a good idea after this year, if the team continues it's downward spiral and the fans stop showing up at all.
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CU Medallion [64551]
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110%er [7913]
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Larry's teams were downright awful
Feb 8, 2013, 12:12 PM
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his last team was:
2002-03
Clemson
15-13
5-11
8th
Purnell's last team was:
2009–10
Clemson
21–11
9–7
T–5th
NCAA 1st Round
Also Purnell's last three teams made the NCAA tourney while Larry's last three teams never made the NIT.
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Oculus Spirit [81884]
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The previous year's results isn't a proper indicator of the
Feb 8, 2013, 12:14 PM
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"shape of the program" he left it in. OP had ZERO recruits lined up. He left the cupboard dry and all the players were poorly coached under OP. It takes a lot to try to teach fundamentals of basketball to poorly coached players, but Brownell has been making strides at it (only need to look at Bobo's improvement).
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110%er [7913]
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how about the results the yr after he left then....
Feb 8, 2013, 12:16 PM
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we went to the NCAA tourney yet again...so four yrs in a row which have NEVER happened at Clemson.
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Oculus Spirit [81884]
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And that was only because of Brownell's coaching. Not to
Feb 8, 2013, 12:17 PM
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mention he won an NCAA Tourney game (something OP couldn't do). And then got shafted with the First Four thing (something that has been addressed now by the NCAA).
The fact is OP didn't have anything set up for the future of the program...
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110%er [7913]
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there was a lot of talent left on that team***
Feb 8, 2013, 12:19 PM
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Orange Blooded [2441]
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Orange Blooded [2441]
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All-In [28802]
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but then nearly beat a pretty good WVU team the next day
Feb 8, 2013, 12:43 PM
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probably would've beat them had we not had to play a day later.
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Orange Blooded [2441]
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"nearly," "probably," but didn't.***
Feb 8, 2013, 12:49 PM
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Hall of Famer [22386]
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110%er [7913]
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comparing a coach who took us the NIT once vs a coach
Feb 8, 2013, 12:18 PM
[ in reply to The previous year's results isn't a proper indicator of the ] |
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who took us to the NCAA three yrs in a row is absurd...Larry was probably one of the two worst hires Clemson has made in my life with Tommy West being the other.
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Orange Blooded [2441]
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Oculus Spirit [81884]
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CU Medallion [58410]
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agreed***
Feb 8, 2013, 12:11 PM
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Orange Blooded [2519]
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Not even close. Stitt & Grant were excellent players
Feb 8, 2013, 12:13 PM
[ in reply to Seriously? OP left it in just as bad of shape...*** ] |
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plus Tanner Smith and the other shooting guard who's name is escaping me.
Plus, OP inherited a perrenial bottom dweller with no experience winning games. Brownell's team had been to 3 straight tourneys and been in the top 4 of the ACC those years.
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Orange Blooded [2441]
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Yep!***
Feb 8, 2013, 12:13 PM
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Oculus Spirit [81884]
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Stitt played hard and Grant didn't live up to his
Feb 8, 2013, 12:16 PM
[ in reply to Not even close. Stitt & Grant were excellent players ] |
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expectations as much as Milt hasn't lived up to his (yet Grant hasn't been hated as much for some reason).
Tanner also played hard.
You seem to forget that OP left this program in shambles with regards to the future. Sure, he left us a couple good players, but ZERO potential recruits and zero future.
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Orange Blooded [2441]
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Grant was not nearly as highly regarded out of HS
Feb 8, 2013, 12:24 PM
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as Jennings. Grant wasn't even a 4 star recruit (he was a 3 star). Plus, Grant turned into a darn good player by the time he was done and he didn't have nearly as many braincramps as MJ.
Along with Stitt, Grant, Smith and Young (a very nice core), OP left a freshmen class of a five star, two four stars and a three star. Say what you want about whether they were overrated by the recruiting services, but they did have talent that BB has not (with the exception of DB) developed. In fact, he ran out two of those players.
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All-In [28802]
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Grant was not a highly rated recruit...
Feb 8, 2013, 12:47 PM
[ in reply to Stitt played hard and Grant didn't live up to his ] |
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and he was our best player in the front court after Booker left, so I'm not sure where the comment about him not living up to expectations comes from. He score 12.4 pts/ game his senior year, which I would say is pretty good.
Stitt was actually Mr. Basketball in NC when Purnell recruited him, and the guy was probably the best PG we've had at Clemson in a long time just in terms of pure talent and ability to score.
I agree that Purnell did not build well for the future. But a lot of that is because his recruits went elsewhere when he left, and guys like Jennings just didn't pan out.
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Legend [19659]
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OP's roster in his 3rd year
Feb 8, 2013, 12:15 PM
[ in reply to OP followed Larry Shyatt, Brownell was left a MUCH better ] |
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PG-Hamilton, 2G-Hammonds, SF-Rivers, PF-Mays, C-Akingbala
Bench-Robinson, Perry, Powell, Sykes, Allen
OP had 3 guys who were upper classmen on this team who were key contributors: Hamilton, Akingbala and Robinson. Hammonds was the best of the underclassmen with Rivers and Mays also playing key roles. He dealt with no injuries to speak of.
BB
PG-Hall, 2G-Harrison, SF-McDaniels, PF-Jennings, C-Booker
Bench-Filer, Roper, Sullivan, Smith, Nnoko
BB has 2 upperclassmen, and only Book could be called a consistent contributor. Book very similar to the numbers Akingbala put up as a senior. 2 of his most talented players are out for the year.
Still not out of the realm this team finishes close to where OP's did in the league. BB played a far tougher OOC schedule. Last night was as ugly as it gets but many are over reacting. That OP team made the NIT with the wins in the soft non-conference schedule helping. That's still a realistic goal.
By the 3rd year OP had more from Shyatt than BB did from OP. You are correct in that BB needs at least 2 more years
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Orange Blooded [2441]
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It's not just last night we are reacting to though...
Feb 8, 2013, 12:18 PM
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it's Coastal Carolina and Purdue (at home) and BC, none of whom are good.
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Legend [19659]
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I'm just wondering what our expectations are
Feb 8, 2013, 12:31 PM
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with a roster of 11 underclassmen, 2 of whom can't play due to injury. OP's 3rd team lost to Elon, bad teams from Georgia, Virginia, and UNC(the Doherty debacle). The non-conference schedule played was beyond atrocious. The teams are actually pretty comparable except for OP's 12-2 non conference record.
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Orange Blooded [2441]
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It's college hoops...most teams have a bunch of
Feb 8, 2013, 12:47 PM
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underclassmen.
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Legend [19659]
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Look at the ACC
Feb 8, 2013, 12:56 PM
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1) Miami-almost all seniors and juniors
2) Duke-Plumlee, Curry, Kelly, Thornton, Hairston
3)UVA-Evans, Harris, Mitchell
4) UNC-Bulloch, Strickland, McDonald
5)-NCS-Brown, Wood, Leslie, Howell
The teams with rosters like ours are struggling just like we are. And again, none of them are missing 2 of their more athletic, talented players. anyone who thought we were a NCAA team this year was dreaming. Still a chance at the NIT though, if, we see some guys step up like they need too. and I'm not talking about Jennings. KJ, Filer, Hall, are the guys who need to take it to another level
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All-In [28802]
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how many of those guys were OP's recruits, though?
Feb 8, 2013, 12:53 PM
[ in reply to OP's roster in his 3rd year ] |
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Didn't OP bring in Hammonds, Hamilton, Rivers, Mays, Perry, and Sykes?
I think you could also argue that the league was tougher a few years ago than it is now. Wake, GT, UVa, and Maryland were all pretty good.
I agree that Purnell didn't leave much for Brownell, but part of the reason for that is a couple of his recruits left when Purnell left.
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Legend [19659]
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Hard to argue that Johnson or Hill would be helping us
Feb 8, 2013, 1:04 PM
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when they've done nothing at their new schools. OP's first recruiting class had Hamilton and that's basically it. 2nd had Hammonds, Mays, and Perry. 3rd added KC, Sykes, Powell. Except for Hammonds and Rivers most of those guys weren't dependable scorers their first 2 years. What's the real difference between those classes and BB's, except for the injuries BB has dealt with? By OP's 4th year he was starting a senior in Hamilton, 2 juniors in Hammonds and Mays, a soph in KC and a freshman in Trevor. That's when the real improvement began. Next year is when we should begin to see the steps forward with BB
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Orange Blooded [4035]
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Re: OP followed Larry Shyatt, Brownell was left a MUCH better
Feb 8, 2013, 12:18 PM
[ in reply to OP followed Larry Shyatt, Brownell was left a MUCH better ] |
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When people start talking about this "how they left it" topic - they miss the boat when "Players" are brought up.
Where Brownell had a huge advantage was in the recruiting. Regardless of the players - Purnell left after going to the dance, ACC success, more brand recognition than when Shyatt left. Brownell should have been able to use this improved success when recruiting. This would not translate into 5 star players - but certainly should have improved our position. This is what I blame on Brownell. He did not translate one of the best runs in Clemson history into better recruiting.
JMO anyway. Some coaches teach well, some recruit well - very few do both really well.
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All-In [28802]
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yeah, but compare the team Purnell took over...
Feb 8, 2013, 12:04 PM
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to the team Brownell took over. Shyatt left us in shambles, while Purnell left us with a team that made it to the tournament.
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Orange Blooded [2441]
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Agreed. BB went to the tourney in his first year..
Feb 8, 2013, 12:13 PM
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with the "shambles" that OP apparently left him.
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110%er [5446]
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Reading this thread makes me recall Terrence Oglesby.
Feb 8, 2013, 12:52 PM
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"The sharpshooter from Tennessee" as I recall. The kid was an a$$, but boy could he shoot that ball better than anyone I've ever seen in a Clemson jersey.
Too bad he left early when he did. He was amazing.
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Hall of Famer [22386]
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I really liked watching him play. Our fans skewered him
Feb 8, 2013, 1:01 PM
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and didn't know what they had until he was gone. Imagine how much his shooting could open the floor for Booker.
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Letterman [256]
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Re: I really liked watching him play. Our fans skewered him
Feb 8, 2013, 1:03 PM
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Trust me that TO would never have seen the floor for Brownell unless he drastically changed his approach to defense.
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110%er [5446]
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Agreed. And he had a horrible attitude.
Feb 8, 2013, 1:10 PM
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But his quick, deadly release was pure amazingness. He made SportsCenter Top 10 a bunch of times.
And I don't think he COULDN'T play defense; I think it was more he chose not to.
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Hall of Famer [22386]
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Brownell would have had him on the floor because he could
Feb 8, 2013, 2:49 PM
[ in reply to Re: I really liked watching him play. Our fans skewered him ] |
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shoot the lights out. TO's defense was not as bad as people imagined and was better than what we have seen from Roper. Not to knock Roper, just a comparison.
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