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CU Guru [1475]
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This guys punishment is not yours or Clemsons...
Jun 28, 2013, 9:43 PM
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responsibility. Its the court of law. Justice can be served and we be civil and show some empathy if not for him for his family.
At least wait til all the info is out to pass complete and total judgement.
It fine to be hurt and mad but handle your frustration with maturity and character.
Go Tigers!
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Trainer [48]
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Re: This guys punishment is not yours or Clemsons...
Jun 28, 2013, 9:47 PM
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> responsibility. Its the court of law. Justice can be
> served and we be civil and show some empathy if not
> for him for his family.
>
> At least wait til all the info is out to pass
> complete and total judgement.
>
> It fine to be hurt and mad but handle your
> frustration with maturity and character.
>
> Go Tigers!
VERY well stated. Go Tigers!
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Legend [19594]
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What I find interesting, is that a lot of people on here, no
Jun 28, 2013, 9:47 PM
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matter the punishment, will never be satisfied. They prefer to be pissoed off for life.
And I'm mad too, but the vitriol on here is ovrwhelming.
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Aficionado [173]
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PreachinTiger
Jun 28, 2013, 9:47 PM
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Well said
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CU Guru [1427]
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Re: This guys punishment is not yours or Clemsons...
Jun 28, 2013, 9:50 PM
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Agreed. Embarrassed by many comments of Clemson "fans".
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110%er [6937]
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Re:Had he been a dawg, dirtpecker or Carolina fan, you
Jun 28, 2013, 9:56 PM
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would want to crucify him. I don't feel sorry for the idiot(s).
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All-In [29036]
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I"m not sure how one can't feel sorry for the family
Jun 28, 2013, 10:13 PM
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Unless you think they aren't innocent of the crime.
I simply don't understand not feeling bad for what seems (from as much as you can tell from the few public scraps of info) to be solid family whose son screwed up royally.
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110%er [6937]
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Re Then I feel sorry for you. This young mani is 18 and
Jun 28, 2013, 10:34 PM
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he should be held accountable for his actions. That is, probably, the problem with hime now--his family has never held him accountable for anything. The dad, who some say is a preacher, should have take a belt to his butt along time ago.
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110%er [6095]
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There are plenty of good parents that have rotten children
Jun 28, 2013, 10:36 PM
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Some people are just born bad
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All-In [29036]
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And some decent folks
Jun 28, 2013, 10:42 PM
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Do stupid/dumb things. That does not inherently make them bad people.
That is not, at all, to excuse his actions. But I think some folks might be going a bit far in the demonization of his family.
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All-In [29036]
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You make a crap ton of assumptions in that post
Jun 28, 2013, 10:41 PM
[ in reply to Re Then I feel sorry for you. This young mani is 18 and ] |
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You presume to know a ton about a family you've never met and had never heard of 12 hours ago.
Maybe they're crappy parents. Maybe they aren't. We simply don't know and your assumption is they are guilty by association to their child. I fail to see that as a rational viewpoint.
And yes, HE should be accountable for his actions. No one has said otherwise.
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Hall of Famer [24457]
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Exactly. It's a rock. And to tell the truth, the
Jun 28, 2013, 11:01 PM
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sentimental value was made up. The thing has no inherent attachment to the University, it sat in FH's office for a while because he didnt know what to do with it, then decided to use it as a made up motivational device.
I am not saying that the intervening years dont add some degree of sentiment, but its just a rock, and an ugly one.
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All-In [29036]
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Thats pretty much true of any sentimental object
Jun 28, 2013, 11:14 PM
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Of course its just a rock. But it is also a symbol. It has an inherent value outside of what it was before it was placed in that position.
That said, you are right that it is probably best not to get too caught up in the symbol itself rather than what it was intended to stand for. But therein lies the power of symbols.
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Hall of Famer [24457]
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All you say is true about the sentiment. I was referring
Jun 28, 2013, 11:26 PM
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to the OP's comments regarding the attitude that some have, that the crime is a great grevious thing worthy of anger and maximun punishment. I dont think that is true. The charge itself states that the value is small. I am sure the University could not insure the rock itself for more than a few hundred dollars, a few thousand maybe.
He has done an incredibly stupid thing, and to those who place great sentimental value in the rock he has done a very insensitive thing. But it was a very minor crime.
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Hall of Famer [24457]
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I was not disagreeing with you there. Just clarifying. All
Jun 28, 2013, 11:31 PM
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you said was right.
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Walk-On [132]
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Legend [17262]
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And the Constitution is just a piece of paper ...
Jun 28, 2013, 11:25 PM
[ in reply to Exactly. It's a rock. And to tell the truth, the ] |
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These symbols mean so much to so many. I'm surprised any Clemson fan thinks of Howard's Rock as just a rock.
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Hall of Famer [24457]
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No, its a one of a kind piece of paper, hence its value.
Jun 28, 2013, 11:29 PM
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The Rock was just a rock, one of immumerable. I didnt say it wasnt important. I was saying it was not a large crime. It wasn't. How mad we are about it shouldnt have any effect on what happens to this kid.
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Legend [17262]
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Re: No, its a one of a kind piece of paper, hence its value.
Jun 28, 2013, 11:33 PM
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For 45+ years, the legends of Clemson football have rubbed that rock, which makes it unique and unlike any other rock. We'll just have to disagree about the value of The Rock.
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Hall of Famer [24457]
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No we will not disagree...you can hold your own
Jun 28, 2013, 11:43 PM
[ in reply to No, its a one of a kind piece of paper, hence its value. ] |
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emotional opinion. The charge already states what the value is, and it is small. Disagree with them if you like. But the fact is that people rubbing a rock adds setimental value only. If that has any effect at all on what happens to that kid, we are just a mob, making up law as we go
Mature adults can admit that the sentiment is great and the loss large, but the crime small, and therefore not define what happens to the kid by that understandable anger. That is what the OP was saying, and that is all I was agreeing with.
Yes, it has great sentimental value. But it has almost no legal value due to fact that it is just a rock. You cant inflate the crime because we are mad about it. Some people simply will not get that.
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Legend [17262]
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So by that logic, it would be same as breaking any rock
Jun 28, 2013, 11:46 PM
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lying around on the ground in Death Valley.
Funny how you are claiming to be the mature one while calling names.
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Hall of Famer [24457]
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I called you a name?
Jun 29, 2013, 12:05 AM
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But to answer your question regarding any rock on death valley:
1. Sentimentally. No. Vastly different.
2. Legally. No. Vastly different. His was a felony.
3. Tangible damage to you. About the same.
I am not understanding why we are not communicating. The charge clearly states the value. The penalty will be likewise small. Can you understand why that is? If so, I dont know what we are arguing about. In cases like this, it is usually plead down to something not permanent. The fact that we are really mad about it shouldnt change that, IMO.
We will one day be not very mad about this, and rightly so. It is by that standard we should act, not on today's emotions.
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Legend [17262]
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Just because there is an amount stated as the value doesn't
Jun 29, 2013, 12:22 AM
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mean it's the right value. This is a priceless symbol that I guarantee you would bring substantially more than $10,000 were it auctioned off. Who came up with this value? The value of Howard's Rock is substantially different from the value of just any rock lying around. I understand what you are saying, I just don't agree with it.
I took your comments about any "mature person" agreeing with you and my opinion being "emotional" as a veiled insults. If I mistook your intent, then I apologize.
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Hall of Famer [24457]
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I will admit to stating that the value of the rock is
Jun 29, 2013, 1:09 AM
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emotional. Most of the opinions regarding what punishement should be due this kid are emotionally based. The idea that a grevious crime has been committed is emotionally based.
It would be like someone stealing a person's one remaining aritfact of a lost loved one, say, a simple ring. It is priceless to me. For him to steal it and sell it for its $200 value would an act of unimaginable selfishness and callousness. Really, that would be as bad as one can get, worse than chipping that rock.
But if we caught that guy, its a minor crime. If he was a teenager, I would hope he would be treated like any other teenager in that situation. My hurt over that priceless item has nothing to do with this.
I said I hope I would. I dont know exactly what I might want. But for me to say that mature adults would do one thing while emotionally ruled people would do another is not to say that I am mature or that another person is less so. If we cant verbally recognize one from the other, how else do we make right decisions?
But I was pi$$y in how I said it, I grant you that. I sincerely apologize and you were right to call me out.
And yes, if auctioned it would sell for who knows what. But it is still purely emotionally based value. A painting is just paint, but it has a general market value everywhere. My guess is that the rock is ensurable for very little, no matter what a Clemson fan would pay for it. If Clemson gets the death penalty, its value would drop. It just doesent have intrinsic value.
The point of that is that the value is emotionally based, and even then just to Clemson fans, and not all of them. We are going to hang a lifetime felony tag around the teen's neck over that?
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110%er [5962]
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You make a lot a valid points, placing ANY type of value on
Jun 29, 2013, 1:36 AM
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Howard's Rock would be nearly impossible; monetarily, emotionally, sentimentally, or otherwise. And who would have the authority to assign that value? In essence the rock was free and has no monetary value.
Charge him for the crimes he committed regardless of the value or condition of the Rock. At 18 he is no longer a minor and certainly old enough to know that what he was doing was wrong. We're basically going around in circles here about the value of Howard's Rock, but if they want to punish him for for the value of the rock then move on to a civil suit.
But I do feel, if he is guilty, that he should have to wear that tag and accept the consequences just as you or I would have to.
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110%er [5962]
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Not trying to start an argument, but what made that piece of
Jun 29, 2013, 12:09 AM
[ in reply to No, its a one of a kind piece of paper, hence its value. ] |
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paper one of a kind? So you're saying that Death Valley, CA is littered with a bunch of Howard's Rocks? How do you put a monetary value on a rock? Your argument that the Constitution is more than just a piece of paper but Howard's Rock is just a rock seems to be contradictory.
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Hall of Famer [24457]
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Good question, and you might be right. First, I know that
Jun 29, 2013, 12:32 AM
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this is all worthless opinion. Its just fun to talk about. Except for two things:
1. The charge states a low value. There is a reason for that.
2. A real person, a teenager, is invovled.
Do, if the difference in values between the Const and the rock seems inconsistent to you, you have to face the fact that the charge recognizes very little value. Are they wrong? If they are right, why might that be.
Just because I was willing to agree with the poster that the Const was valuable does not make me inconsistent. I have no idea what it is worth. Its just not the same as a rock, whoever has touched it. I know that.
By the way, can we agree we are talking about monetary, not sentimental, value here? That is a whole 'nuther subject, and brings up a diffferent discussion of whether we should throw the book at this guy instead of what would otherwise surely be some leniency, simply because we are really po'd.
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CU Medallion [52030]
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Oh, it has value and is more than just a rock
Jun 28, 2013, 11:52 PM
[ in reply to Exactly. It's a rock. And to tell the truth, the ] |
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You just cannot measure its value. Have you noticed how many recruits cannot wait to rub Howard's Rock and run down the Hill? It might have started out being just a rock, but it is now Howard's Rock, a nationally recognized symbol of Clemson football--an icon as described by most national sports and news organizations.
While I want to see the guy receive due process of the law, let's not diminish what has been done. If that rock meant nothing, then this would not have happened in the first place.
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Hall of Famer [24457]
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I didnt say it didnt. I was differentiating the kinds of
Jun 29, 2013, 12:13 AM
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value that can be attached to it, and which of those should affect how the kid is prosecuted.
Nearly 100% of the value of rock is emotional. That is a very poor reason, IMO, to want to treat this teenager any more harshly than in similar circumstances.
The kid could have stolen the whole thing and thrown it in the lake, and it a month we would not be thinking about it. At least I hope not.
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110%er [5962]
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Punitive damages.
Jun 29, 2013, 12:18 AM
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The purposes of punitive damages are to punish the defendant for outrageous misconduct and to deter the defendant and others from similar misbehavior in the future. The nature of the wrongdoing that justifies punitive damages is variable and imprecise. The usual terms that characterize conduct justifying these damages include bad faith, fraud, malice, oppression, outrageous, violent, wanton, wicked, and reckless. These aggravating circumstances typically refer to situations in which the defendant acted intentionally, maliciously, or with utter disregard for the rights and interests of the plaintiff.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/punitive+damages
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Hall of Famer [24457]
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You do understand that this is not a civil suit?***
Jun 29, 2013, 12:36 AM
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CU Medallion [52030]
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The idea of a civil suit has been tossed around a bit
Jun 29, 2013, 1:01 AM
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Not by me, but it has been discussed.
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Legend [17262]
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I think you are very mistaken if you believe
Jun 29, 2013, 12:48 AM
[ in reply to I didnt say it didnt. I was differentiating the kinds of ] |
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"The kid could have stolen the whole thing and thrown it in the lake, and it a month we would not be thinking about it. At least I hope not. "
If that rock was stolen, a month later we would not be thinking about it? You don't think every time the Tigers arrived at the top of the hill with no rock to rub, we would not be thinking about Howard's Rock? I would be thinking of it every home game for the rest of my life. I have a replica of the rock on my desk.
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CU Medallion [52030]
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It's not just emotional, its value is intangible
Jun 29, 2013, 12:58 AM
[ in reply to I didnt say it didnt. I was differentiating the kinds of ] |
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similar to goodwill. It is part of the Clemson brand/identity. It(and even the idea of it) helps "sell" the football program to prospective recruits and fans as well. And, goodwill does include the worth of corporate identity in business. College football is big business, make no mistake about that. In addition to that, it is of historical value.
As I said in an earlier post, the rock needs to be appraised by someone who is an expert in these matters.
I am going to disagree with you, and let it go at that.
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Hall of Famer [24457]
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Monetary value. Sentimental value. Emotional value.
Jun 29, 2013, 1:23 AM
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Very different things. One has to clearly differentiate those before deciding to treat this kid differently that others might in similar situations. No one who wants "the full extent of the law" dropped on this kid wants to even discuss that.
Appraised value means nothing in this case. It is valuable only to another Clemson fan, worthless to anyone else, and if Clemson gets the death penalty it becames worth way leas to anyone. It has no intrinsic value. Something like, say, an art work has worth independent of anything. It has its own value.
I think we have to recognize the difference before we spout off about throwing the book at this guy. In the end, all he did was make us mad.
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CU Medallion [52030]
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Re: Monetary value. Sentimental value. Emotional value.
Jun 29, 2013, 1:39 AM
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Who said anything about throwing the book at the guy? I said he is entitled to due process of the law.
You are clearly not connecting with what I am saying, and have no desire to do so. I am too tired to repeat it with more explanations. And, I clearly do understand what you are saying and assuming without you replying in such a condescending manner.
BTW, in the end, he allegedly committed a felony, according to police--a little more than just making us mad.
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Hall of Famer [24457]
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Who said? Lots of people. I have read "full extent of the
Jun 29, 2013, 1:56 AM
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law" over and over on this board. That is what i said i was addressing.
As to the felony, I would guess almost all of that is due to the damage to cover, pedastel, etc. The rock itself had little monetary damage. Its still there, ready and able to be rubbed. So yes, the "full extent" talk is about being mad.
And I have read the post to which you responded; I see nothing condescending about it.
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CU Guru [1898]
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Hall of Famer [24457]
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No, it costs millions to replace it.
Jun 29, 2013, 12:34 AM
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Did you think about that before you posted it? Talk about nutty.
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All-In [40875]
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Either that or kick his ### when you see him at the club
Jun 29, 2013, 12:52 AM
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Hall of Famer [24457]
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THAT, sir, is a punishment that fits the crime.***
Jun 29, 2013, 1:10 AM
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Rooter [228]
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Varsity [240]
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Re: No we will not disagree...you can hold your own
Jun 29, 2013, 1:59 AM
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Well said
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