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110%er [6492]
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The worst thing about the complaint filed against Clemson
Apr 16, 2014, 7:50 AM
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is the fact that it's coming from outside the program. Totally different story if there's a player saying "I've been benched or I've been punished in some way because I don't participate in these religious activities". Nobody has said that, to my knowledge, but if they did, they would have my complete support. This is strictly an external complainant who sees a problem where, at least in my opinion, there really isn't one.
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Oculus Spirit [96792]
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Exactly. Sounds a lot like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.
Apr 16, 2014, 7:53 AM
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It's not about helping other people or doing the right thing, it's about garnering attention for themselves, and creating controversy where there is none.
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110%er [5093]
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Unfortunately, most fans wouldn't feel that way
Apr 16, 2014, 7:54 AM
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Most would be saying the player had sour grapes and just wasn't good enough to play.
That isn't just a Clemson issue, it would be the same way in Columbia.
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Rock Defender [53]
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I think the complaint would have had more merit during the
Apr 16, 2014, 7:55 AM
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Bowden era. TB openly evangelized and encouraged players to go to church.
Also, the seemingly close affiliation of the NewSpring grifters with the program is also problematic.
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All-TigerNet [12269]
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Re: The worst thing about the complaint filed against Clemson
Apr 16, 2014, 7:55 AM
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You would support them before it was determined whether or not they were telling the truth?
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110%er [5093]
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Lumbee, no need to ruin his attempt
Apr 16, 2014, 7:58 AM
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To come off unbiased.
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110%er [9085]
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Swag and now this! What's next? you know things come in 3s***
Apr 16, 2014, 7:57 AM
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CU Medallion [51524]
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Those liberals go around LOOKING for this stuff.
Apr 16, 2014, 8:03 AM
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After they're done with Clemson they'll move on to some junior in high school trying to organize a see you at the pole event.
#### these guys.
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Fan [55]
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I don't think this coming to light is a bad thing
Apr 16, 2014, 8:11 AM
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Unfortunately, a player in the program probably won't feel like he can report a problem. Hopefully, there is not a problem and putting the issue in daylight will confirm that. If the problem is legit, then something needs to change.
That said I believe Coach Swinney is honest and neither he or the coaches pressure the players on religious grounds and a look at the program will show that. I hope religion does not come into his hiring decisions either. Can someone closer to the program tell me if all coaches are strongly religious?
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Commissioner [942]
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Re: I don't think this coming to light is a bad thing
Apr 16, 2014, 8:56 AM
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Whether all the coaches are religious or not is not the issue.
As long as players are NOT required to attend the bible studies or church, there is no issue. also, no pressure involved.
While I understand everyone's venom about this organization, we do have a Constitution that emphasizes the separation of church and state. Clemson is a State funded institution.
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Junkie [550]
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Re: I don't think this coming to light is a bad thing
Apr 16, 2014, 9:04 AM
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Lets not kid ourselves. Clemson is merely supported by the State these days. The State of South Carolina provides only about 10% of Clemson's overall budget now, and that number seems to drop significantly every year.
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Varsity [215]
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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment ...
Apr 16, 2014, 9:06 AM
[ in reply to Re: I don't think this coming to light is a bad thing ] |
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of religion. . . .
You, like many federal judges, are trying to read much more into the First Amendment than it says. The US has no Federal religion.
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Orange Blooded [3245]
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Re: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment ...
Apr 16, 2014, 9:37 AM
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I'm pretty sure the Supreme Court was the worst idea our founding fathers had. Maybe they never expected them to "interpret" the Constitution. The idea that one politically motivated 5-4 decision can fundamentally change the way our country functions seems ludicrous to me.
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Standout [313]
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Re: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment ...
Apr 16, 2014, 9:49 AM
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You realize that when dealing with words someone has to interpret them, right? It cannot be avoided.
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Ring of Honor [26353]
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Fan [55]
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Re: Can you do me a favor and try to find in our Constitution
Apr 16, 2014, 9:50 AM
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you can look it up just as well as I can. as a matter of fact most of the posted on this issue should spend a little time looking at our legal history.
however, the real issue here is right and wrong. we do not live in a county or culture that is exclusively Christian and we need to protect the rights of others. I say this and I know somebody is going to say "let the jews and other heathens go somewhere else. Yet, you have to know that this is a public institution and even if it were not, you still can't do that.
this seems so basic to me that I am having trouble even responding to the comments to this issuer.
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Orange Blooded [3245]
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Re: Can you do me a favor and try to find in our Constitution
Apr 16, 2014, 9:56 AM
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So like I said. A 5-4 decision about how kids got to school in the morning should shape the entire way out country handles religion. Must seem reasonable to someone so enlightened.
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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Standout [313]
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Re: Can you do me a favor and try to find in our Constitution
Apr 16, 2014, 9:51 AM
[ in reply to Can you do me a favor and try to find in our Constitution ] |
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The Supreme Court has interpreted the Establishment Clause to mean that, based in part on statements made by Jefferson and Madison about the topic. Disagree if you want, but they decide what the Constitution means.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: I don't think this coming to light is a bad thing
Apr 16, 2014, 9:16 AM
[ in reply to Re: I don't think this coming to light is a bad thing ] |
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Where in the constitution does it say "Separation of church and State?"
The ignorance of our culture is mind-boggling. The only thing we know are sound-bites. Nobody wants to know the truth for themselves.
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Orange Blooded [3798]
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"Separation" IS NOT a Constitutional argument...
Apr 16, 2014, 9:56 AM
[ in reply to Re: I don't think this coming to light is a bad thing ] |
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The phrase "separation of Church and State" was used by Thomas Jefferson in a letter... a personal correspondence... and was used in a context of protecting the church from the government, not the other way around.
Remember... English religious dissidents emigrated to America to get away from the religious persecution of the Church of England which controlled the British Monarchy and were the de facto rulers of England. In order to do ANYTHING in England including own land or hold a job of any reasonable kind, you had to pledge an oath of loyalty to the Church of England and renounce Catholicism or any other religion.
Our founding fathers intended the Constitution to protect the right of the individual to WORSHIP AS THEY PLEASE without interference from any governmental institution. Remember... the framers of the Constitution also put God and Christian principles at the forefront of every element of the establishment of the nation. That isn't opinion... it is fact.
Liberals have distorted and perverted the Constitution for their own purpose. By the way... I can't stand Bill O'Reilly, Rush and the rest of the idiots. I have formed my own opinions based on study.
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Standout [313]
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Re: "Separation" IS NOT a Constitutional argument...
Apr 16, 2014, 10:59 AM
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It didn't just some from one letter from Jefferson. Madison also used similar terminology and clearly understood the Establishment clause to create a separation between religion and the government.
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Orange Blooded [3798]
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You are correct... but the intent of the Establishment
Apr 16, 2014, 3:29 PM
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Clause was to prevent the government from establishing a "national religion" or a "national church" which would, by definition, exclude any citizens who did not practice that faith from participation in any phase of citizenship.
The model was in direct reaction to the fear entrenched anti-federalists had of being excluded or marginalized since they were (in the case of Madison's opponents in Virginia) Baptists, which at the time were a religious minority.
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Ring of Honor [26353]
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Agreed. This particular group basically looks around
Apr 16, 2014, 9:12 AM
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the country trying to find people to bully. I think this is the same group that just got done bullying Pickens County last year
Simply curious, but anyone know if they go after Muslim groups or Mormons? Seems like anything I hear that has their name attached to it has to do with Christians
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Orange Blooded [2519]
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Muslims kill you when you criticize islam. That takes real
Apr 16, 2014, 9:38 AM
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courage to do, and often means people have to get body guards for the rest of their lives, or change their identity.
Ask the Danish cartoonist. Ask Geert Wilders or Ayan Hirsi Ali or Salmon Rushdie or Theo Van Gogh.
Oh sorry, Theo Van Gogh was stabbed and killed in the streets of Amsterdam, you can't ask him.
It's easier to pick on Christians b/c they won't do anything but complain or try to convince you to become one of them.
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Orange Blooded [4098]
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Re: Muslims kill you when you criticize islam. That takes real
Apr 16, 2014, 10:20 AM
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yes!! and if they do kill U they get 76virgins when they get to heaven.. only religion that rewards their members for killing with SEX!!
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Orange Blooded [2430]
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Re: The worst thing about the complaint filed against Clemson
Apr 16, 2014, 10:16 AM
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With all the problems in the world and this is what the writer of the letter is worried about...He better worry about taking another path in life, if not, when his ends, I'm afraid he's going to be extra crispy
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