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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Moar context for the slow baseball fans....
Apr 11, 2013, 3:19 PM
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Right now, in the midst of our awful year that is a perfect example of how Clemson baseball has been on the decline ever since Jack Leggett took over, we have the 7th longest active winning streak in the country, out of nearly 300 teams.
-Clemson is ranked 16th in the RPI.
-Clemson currently has the 11th most difficult schedule in the country
- In terms of winning percentage Clemson has played and defeated 3 of the top 11 teams.
-The ACC is the strongest league in the country right now and the Clemson Tigers are tied for 4th place overall, with series against the top 2 teams already over.
-Clemson is only one game back from Atlantic Division leader and 3rd place overall.
-The combined record of all the teams that have defeated Clemson this year (counting record for each loss) is 268-107 (.715%)
-Currently, in a year that is generally considered full of youngsters, Clemson is as ranked as high as 17th in a major national poll. Before Jack Leggett was coach of Clemson, Clemson has only finished 17th or better in a major poll 10 times total.(Baseball America, Collegiate Baseball, Coaches Poll) Before this year, Jack Leggett had the Tigers finish 17th or better 10 times in just the last 13 seasons.
-Only 16 different schools have won the national championship in baseball since 1965. Currently Clemson is ranked ahead of 11 of those schools in BOTH the RPI and the polls.
Anyone calling for Jack Leggett to be fired is either illogically emotional on the subject or extremely stupid. Stop embarrassing yourself people.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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Granted, but what about the fact that we barely won
Apr 11, 2013, 3:28 PM
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last night? Barely winning is not acceptable!
Oh, and I'll include this so the slow baseball fans understand this is sarcasm - 
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Oculus Spirit [96772]
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Be careful... sarcasm is a precursor of
Apr 11, 2013, 3:36 PM
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humor.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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I thought it was something about intellectually bankrupt?***
Apr 11, 2013, 3:58 PM
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Oculus Spirit [96772]
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Dang! You're right. I'm just a little slow.***
Apr 11, 2013, 4:05 PM
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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That's why the OP was written for you***
Apr 11, 2013, 4:11 PM
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CU Medallion [67617]
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Re: Moar context for the slow baseball fans....
Apr 11, 2013, 3:57 PM
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I'd just like to see better base running and fewer runners stranded on base. Had we taken care of that last night it wouldn't have been real close.
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Legend [19352]
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Re: Moar context for the slow baseball fans....
Apr 11, 2013, 7:15 PM
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You mean better fundamentals aka the things that cost us when Talent is equaled.
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110%er [6937]
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Re:That about sums it up. You have to expect better.***
Apr 11, 2013, 7:33 PM
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Oculus Spirit [96772]
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When did we hire Jack Leggett?
Apr 11, 2013, 4:12 PM
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Completely missed that one.
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All-In [36207]
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Most Football Meatheads Assume You Must Go Undefeated
Apr 11, 2013, 5:19 PM
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in Baseball so give them a break. Imagine a football season where Taj Boyd only played every 5th game. Tigers will sweep the Deacs....you read it here first.
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Legend [19352]
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Re: Moar context for the slow baseball fans....
Apr 11, 2013, 7:15 PM
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When Jack starts winning Championships I will stop posting. I have constantly said he is a good/great coach.
I think we need an elite coach. Right now we dont have that. Elite coaches win Championships.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Come on 117, that's NOT what you've been saying....
Apr 11, 2013, 7:33 PM
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"I have constantly said he is a good/great coach."
Contrarily you've been saying, "he's a good coach but not a great/elite coach".
His record over the years is better than good, but at least you've finally come to realize and admit it.
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Legend [19352]
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Re: Come on 117, that's NOT what you've been saying....
Apr 11, 2013, 7:47 PM
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Ive said good/great in the past.
I have said before that I appreciate everything he has done for Clemson but he has had PLENTY of time to show he can be an elite coach. He has failed to do so. One Championship in 18 years after Clemson was the King of the ACC is not acceptable IN MY OPINION.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Judging the success of the program on one random detail
Apr 11, 2013, 7:51 PM
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is silly.
Final ranking should be considered more important than conference championships. That's a no brainer.
Nearly every school de-emphasizes conference tournaments in favor of the national tournament. You are just arbitrarily picking conference championships as THE measure of success. If you want to create your own silly measuring stick and wonder around by yourself with it then have at it. But college baseball will move on without you.
Funny you don't acknowledge in your post how very different it is winning the ACC lately vs what it was 20 years ago. Ignoring that is also weak.
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Orange Blooded [2457]
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Re: Judging the success of the program on one random detail
Apr 11, 2013, 8:06 PM
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Plus the fact that he has won twice as many games as Bill in Omaha and has 4 trips there in the last 13 seasons. Bill had 1 in his final 13 seasons.
To me, we have Omaha on the back of our hat for a reason. It is the goal for the season. A regular season championship would be nice, but hosting Regionals and making Super Regionals trump that. The ACC Tournamnet is a joke of a format and not worth using the pitching for.
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Legend [19352]
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Re: Judging the success of the program on one random detail
Apr 11, 2013, 11:20 PM
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Ah this argument from you where you decide to insult Bill due to your love of Jack. That is quite pathetic seeing how getting to Omaha was MUCH harder under him than it is now a days.
It is pathetic that you will insult Coach Wilhelm like that.
Hosting Regionals would mean you are in the top 16 teams. Typically winning the ACC means you are one of the top 10 if not 5 teams in the country. Winning the ACC is harder than hosting a Regional/Making a Super.
I would put the order of difficulty as follows
NC
Omaha
Winning Super
Hosting Super
ACC Reg Season Title
Making Super but not Host
Hosting Regional
Making Regional
I agree the ACC Tournament format is not every good.
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Orange Blooded [2457]
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Re: Judging the success of the program on one random detail
Apr 11, 2013, 11:56 PM
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I am not insulting Bill at all; if so, where is it? He did a great job building our program, but by no means has Jack ruined or killed what he built. If anything, we are more of a player on the national scene with Jack - that is more important.
If you say Jack has the program slipping, it is easy to show that he hasn't, since the only person to compare him to is Bill (comparison is not an insult). Regardless of whether you think Omaha is easier now or then, 8 teams make it every year. Jack has had us in the Final 8 on a more regular basis than Coach Wilhelm.
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Legend [19352]
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Re: Judging the success of the program on one random detail
Apr 12, 2013, 7:27 AM
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Yes the comparison is an insult when it is a BS comparison.
Yes only 8 teams made it to Omaha but for a while ONLY 8 teams had a shot. If you were ranked 9th-15th you could probably have an argument for making the field and could probably do so if given a shot. Only problem is you DIDNT get that chance.
It is not a matter of me thinking it is easier it is in fact easier. What were your chances of getting to Omaha if you were the 9th best team in the country then versus now?
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Legend [19352]
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Re: Judging the success of the program on one random detail
Apr 11, 2013, 11:10 PM
[ in reply to Judging the success of the program on one random detail ] |
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no it is not a "no brainier" when teams have blown past us.
Who gives a #### what the number by your name is if you have nothing to show for it.
Also I am not only talking about conference tournaments I agree they dont always show who the best team is. Hell look at regular season championships. We dont win those either. #### all this time I was under the impression we were fielding a team to win CHAMPIONSHIPS. I am sorry if you woudl rather us gather in a circle and sing kumbaya while handing out participation ribbons.
Yes the ACC is a better BUT it should not be 1 Championship in nearly two decades better. That is simply excuse making and a loser mentality.
FACT: When talent equals out under Jack we typically lose. That is due to poor fundamentals and coaching plain and simple. We beat teams that we out talent under him and more times than not lose to them when it is either the other way around or equal.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Final ranking is an indication of how deep into the
Apr 12, 2013, 10:16 AM
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tournament we go. Therefore, based on your own hierarchy, which I largely agree with, a FINAL ranking is the most important indication as to how far a team goes in the national tournament and therefore more important than the conference tournament.
Bringing up that we used to dominate the ACC as if it is relevant to today is silly. It has next to nothing to do with anything. It's a different conference, and priorities have changed. UVA and UNC have not passed us by in NCAA Tournament success, which is by far most important.
For every point you could possibly make that is negative about Jack, I can make 5 or 6 in the opposite direction. Your position is extremely weak.
It would be much more debatable to argue against Brad Brownell, though I still support him.
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Legend [19352]
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Re: Final ranking is an indication of how deep into the
Apr 12, 2013, 10:56 AM
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I agree there are plenty of positives about what Jack has done. My only complaint is that the program has plateaued and has been stagnant for years. Clemson Baseball SHOULD be winning Championships at a rate higher than one in the past eighteen or so years.
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Rock Defender [53]
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That's NOT true. You may have recently changed your tune but
Apr 11, 2013, 8:01 PM
[ in reply to Re: Come on 117, that's NOT what you've been saying.... ] |
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you have consistently said he was good but not great/elite. Please try to be honest here. Lying about it would be shameful.
And by the way, CSO makes some real good points too. Some points I've unsuccessfully tried to get you see before.
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Die-Hard [8977]
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Legend [19352]
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Re: The ACC has changed...
Apr 11, 2013, 11:16 PM
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Yes it has changed Clemson has been passed by a lot of teams.
Should be unacceptable but most of you have no problem with it. I will not apologize for thinking Clemson Baseball should win Conference Championships (Reg Season OR Tournament) at a clip greater than once every 20 years.
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Die-Hard [8977]
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Don't tell me...
Apr 11, 2013, 11:26 PM
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whether I do or don't have a problem with something. Those programs that have "passed" Clemson have out-invested Clemson in their programs. I know you think that everything is Jack Leggett's fault and that there are no outside influences, but anyone with a brain knows that isn't true. Frankly, as long as Clemson makes regular appearances in Omaha, I'm not too worried about winning the ACC. You won't apologize for anything, even when you're wrong. You're obsessed with the ACC title at the expense of everything else.
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Legend [19352]
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Re: Don't tell me...
Apr 12, 2013, 7:12 AM
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"At the expense of everything else" #### I always thought you could win your conference and still go to the Big Tournament. Thanks for correcting me. How dare I expect Championships from our once King of the comference team.
Also thanks for circling back to your facilities excuse. Only problem is that doesn't hold water. We were not winning championships before those teams upgraded Baseball facilities. Also doesnt hold water when you look at our recruiting.
I have not apologized because I have yet to be wrong on Jack. I would love nothing more than for Clemson to start filling up the trophy case. If he does ill admit I was wrong. Look at the past 5 to 10 years we lose to teams most of the time when talent equals out.
I was wrong about Dabo I didn't think he would be able to handle the job with such little experience. Watching him grow as a coach over the past several years has been a pleasure.
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Die-Hard [8977]
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You'll never stop posting...
Apr 11, 2013, 10:36 PM
[ in reply to Re: Moar context for the slow baseball fans.... ] |
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Clemson could win 3 ACC titles in a row and you'd complain about all the years he DIDN'T win one. You'll never be happy.
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Legend [19352]
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Re: You'll never stop posting...
Apr 11, 2013, 11:00 PM
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Bull ####. Plain and simple. I have never had a problem giving Jack and the team props after big wins.
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CU Medallion [73569]
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Legend [19352]
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Re: youre a hypocrit
Apr 12, 2013, 7:24 AM
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I don't dog Jack. That is false. Please show one example of me insulting him. I use statistics and past years results to show that he is not an elite coach and is not winning us Championships. That is not dogging that is posting facts.
Also apples to oranges. One of them has been here for not even long enough to have a Senior class. One of them has been here for 20ish years.
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CU Medallion [73569]
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and thats different from Brad?
Apr 12, 2013, 9:30 AM
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he has gotten worse every yr the more of his recruits come in and the less OPs leave. Facts as you say.
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Legend [19352]
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Re: and thats different from Brad?
Apr 12, 2013, 10:54 AM
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I am not getting into you about Brad. I have had that conversation with you already.
Your refusal to acknowledge that the program was not left in great shape tells me that I am wasting my time.
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Hall of Famer [21204]
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Re: Moar context for the slow baseball fans....
Apr 12, 2013, 8:45 AM
[ in reply to Re: Moar context for the slow baseball fans.... ] |
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So you just admitted that the only reason you come on here and post is to complain about Jack not winning championships... intradasting.
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Legend [19352]
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Re: Moar context for the slow baseball fans....
Apr 12, 2013, 9:00 AM
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Reading comprehension is hard....
I will stop posting about Jack when he starts winning Championships. I make plenty of other posts that have nothing to do with Clemson baseball already.
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Hall of Famer [21204]
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Re: Moar context for the slow baseball fans....
Apr 12, 2013, 10:41 AM
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Really!?!? My reading comprhension is bad...
"When Jack starts winning Championships I will stop posting. I have constantly said he is a good/great coach.
I think we need an elite coach. Right now we dont have that. Elite coaches win Championships."
It looks to me like you clearly said "When Jack starts winning Championships I will stop posting."
Maybe communication is hard...
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Legend [19352]
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Re: Moar context for the slow baseball fans....
Apr 12, 2013, 10:52 AM
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It is called context little buddy.
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Hall of Famer [21204]
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Re: Moar context for the slow baseball fans....
Apr 12, 2013, 10:54 AM
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Yep... and the context was that you will stop posting if Jack starts winning Championships...
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110%er [6937]
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Re:I expect better out of a Hall of Fame coach.***
Apr 11, 2013, 7:31 PM
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CU Guru [1038]
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Statistics are for losers
Apr 12, 2013, 8:31 AM
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Bill Wilhelm dominated the ACC, Jack Legget has become UVA and UNC's whipping boy. Not to mention the Coot's whipping boy.
I dont know how many people are screaming for Jack to be fired. I'm not. I'm screaming for improvement in the program. To get back to the days where we dominated the ACC and the Coots.
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Hall of Famer [24159]
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Tell 'em coot***
Apr 12, 2013, 8:33 AM
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Hall of Famer [21815]
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If he gets us "over the hump" this year I'll shut up but
Apr 12, 2013, 9:43 AM
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I don't think its so wrong to want more out of our team, especially when our biggest rival has been in the champ. series the last 3 years and has won 2.
Jack has won a lot of games and has been highly ranked, but he's lost games/series when it counts the most. He can't seem to get us over the hump to bigger/better things. I hope he can this year but until then I'll keep my opinion that new blood may not be the worst thing for this program.
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Orange Blooded [3788]
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Here's some context
Apr 12, 2013, 10:40 AM
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http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-basebl/stats/2012-2013/lgteams.html
We're in the bottom 3rd of the ACC in just about every hitting category and several other categories. There is reason for the complaints, but I'd much rather see Jack retire and allow new blood to come in to the program than be fired. He's done a lot for us, but it seems like he hit his ceiling a few years back.
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Legend [19352]
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Re: Here's some context
Apr 12, 2013, 10:53 AM
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He should NOT NOT NOT be fired.
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