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Orange Blooded [2455]
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If we are being reasonable, we knew this year
Nov 21, 2014, 3:32 PM
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would be pretty rough. We lived and died by KJ last year. The pieces we are relying on to replace his offense this year are mostly untested and underdeveloped (Grantham, Blossomgame). We aren't incredibly strong at PG (Hall), and Nnoko is still very much a project.
This year is not going to be pretty. We knew that before the season started. We're going to have to take our medicine and build for next year and beyond.
On the plus side, recruiting has improved a lot, we're getting a new facility, and we have a shot to be competitive in a downright scary ACC eventually. As competitive as we can be at Clemson (which we have to be realistic about).
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All-In [28802]
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But we didn't know it would be this bad
Nov 21, 2014, 3:34 PM
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And I think you're wrong about Hall. We should have high expectations for him. We also should have high expectations for the other guards on the team, as this was supposed to be a guard-led team.
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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Why would we think otherwise? Look at it logically.
Nov 21, 2014, 3:36 PM
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KJ was not only our best defender, he was also dangerous offensively and was our big energy guy. He made everyone better just by playing.
Rod has never shown great offensive proficiency. Look at his career stats. I think you're wrong to expect a huge improvement (which is what we'd need from him) after this many years. That's just not reasonable.
It's a talent issue. Rod is OK but not great. He's not incredibly fast, he's not a good shooter, and he's also not the most agile. He scored a good bit today, but look at his stats against teams with comparable size. They're dreadful.
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Orange Blooded [2441]
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If it's a talent issue, then it's BB's job to bring in
Nov 21, 2014, 3:39 PM
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better talent. Like it or not, but recruiting is a big part of coaching in college, maybe the most important part. BB has now had four years to recruit and here we are in year 5 still losing to the likes of Winthrop and GW.
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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To be fair, last two years recruiting has improved
Nov 21, 2014, 3:44 PM
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drastically. We've got two more good ones signed for next year, too.
The biggest setback was how awful a situation he was put in his first year. Unknown coach at a terrible basketball school. Can't blame him for pulling in some subpar talent that year.
I'm not pleased with the showing so far this year, but I don't think you and many others understand how hard it is to succeed at Clemson.
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Orange Blooded [2441]
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The argument that BB
Nov 21, 2014, 3:49 PM
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somehow walked into a terrible situation when he arrived simply isn't true as I and many others have pointed out. When he arrived, we had Grant and Stitt as seniors, Young, Smith and narcisse as sophomores, and Jennings, Booker (II), Johnson and Hill as sophomores all coming back. It was so bad, he was able to take that team to the NCAA and win a play in game. He has not been able to do that since.
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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That's like saying the Gamehens have a great football progra
Nov 21, 2014, 3:53 PM
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History goes back much further than 5 years. The truth of it is that Clemson is one of the worst (if not THE worst) basketball program in the ACC. That's a sad truth, but that's how it is.
The recruits know it, the rest of the conference knows it (and mentions it when recruiting), and the rest of basketball knows it.
Be reasonable and look at the results over the last 20 years, look at our dreadful facilities (they have to work out on an outdoor balcony because the weight room is so small), and our paltry fan support. We don't "get" basketball at Clemson.
That doesn't mean we can't improve, but to think that we're ideally positioned to take the ACC by storm is just silly. Especially now with Syracuse, Lou, Pitt, and ND in the mix.
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Orange Blooded [2441]
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I'm definitely not arguing with you there...
Nov 21, 2014, 3:57 PM
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but we were in a good spot when Purnell left. We had talent in all classes. We had just been to the tourney in three straight years and had maybe our best ACC run in our history. Look, I'm not saying it's an easy job and we should expect Duke/UNC results. I don't think anyone is. But to say the program was in shambles when he took over just ain't true.
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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All wasn't rosy when Purnell left
Nov 21, 2014, 4:01 PM
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He left the cupboard pretty bare, his recruiting was bad his last year. And the writing was on the wall that he had taken us as far as he could. I went to a ton of those games, and saw all kinds of awful losses. OP played frustrating basketball that was feast or famine.
During those "golden" years, we more or less got punted out of the first round of the NCAA tournament each time we made it. We were incredibly bad against taller/bigger teams, and we were every bit as bad offensively (the stand around and take random shots at the goal offense, if you recall).
Best equivalent would be Georgia Tech football. They slaughter average teams, but get wrecked by good teams. That is what OP was.
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All-In [30593]
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Clemson had the 3rd best record in the ACC right behind
Nov 21, 2014, 4:04 PM
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UNC and Duke when OP was here (the last 3 years)
that's impressive
it's not gimmicky.. Look at what Pitino, Donovan, and Shaka Smart do
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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Gamehens have had a few 10+ win football seasons
Nov 21, 2014, 4:11 PM
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Fourth place rings and all. But just like them, we didn't really accomplish anything. We got punted out of the first round of the NCAA repeatedly. I'm not proud of that.
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All-In [30593]
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that makes no sense***
Nov 21, 2014, 4:22 PM
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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Sure it does***
Nov 21, 2014, 4:23 PM
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All-In [30593]
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You are essentially saying that you would rather
Nov 21, 2014, 4:25 PM
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not make the tournament, than make it and lose
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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Sounds like you are inferring what you want to
Nov 21, 2014, 4:27 PM
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I'm saying that our recent "golden years" aren't as good as you are making them out to be.
We won some games, but we obviously weren't building a program, and we obviously weren't relevant at all.
I'm glad we had that limited bit of success, but let's not paint the OP era as an unqualified success. It was better than average, for sure. But OP hit a wall with us and he knew it.
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All-In [30593]
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How can you say that when we had the 3rd most wins in the
Nov 21, 2014, 4:30 PM
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ACC over that 3 year stretch. What other time period in Clemson bball history compares to that?
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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How many ACC titles? How many NCAA runs? NIT titles?***
Nov 21, 2014, 4:34 PM
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All-In [30593]
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what? Has that ever happened in our history?***
Nov 21, 2014, 4:36 PM
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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We're talking about our golden era
Nov 21, 2014, 4:38 PM
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Making it out of the first round of the NCAA tournament is a reasonable goal.
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Orange Blooded [2441]
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So if that is reasonable, then what is reasonable to expect
Nov 21, 2014, 4:39 PM
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under BB in year 5? Year 6, etc? Again, I'm seriously asking your opinion and not trying to be a smart ####.
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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I would have hoped for more, no doubt. But every time
Nov 21, 2014, 4:46 PM
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I find myself getting irate, I remember our history and how little we have to work with. Second rate facilities, a very low coaching budget, low fan support, a rural campus, and no history of success. We're like Wake Forest football. It's possible, but incredibly difficult to win with any consistency at Clemson.
To fix us, it has to start with the Athletic Department. The LJ rebuild is a good first step. The next thing that needs to happen is for us to place a much higher priority on basketball if we want to do anything more than just go through the motions. Give BB the budget to get top flight assistants, top flight facilities. Give him a few years with the improved support. If he still can't make progress building a program, go out and get the best coach you can. And don't be stingy with the checkbook.
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Orange Blooded [2441]
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Is it reasonable to apply the OP era standards
Nov 21, 2014, 4:47 PM
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to BB?
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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Hard to compare the two, given how different things are now
Nov 21, 2014, 4:51 PM
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The game has changed a good deal, the conference has changed, and we haven't made any progress whatsoever on the facilities front. When OP took over, the LJ remodel was at least kind of recent.
I haven't looked this up, but it'd be interesting to compare the total sum of OP's staff's salaries versus Brownell's, too.
Getting back on point, I'm hesitant to expect a ton until we rework and invest.
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Orange Blooded [2441]
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But getting to your entire point about the history of
Nov 21, 2014, 4:32 PM
[ in reply to Sounds like you are inferring what you want to ] |
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Clemson hoops, the OP era was one of the, if not the, most successful periods. Sure that isn't saying much in comparison to other programs. But in comparing it to other periods of Clemson hoops, you can't objectively say OP's run wasn't an "unqualified success." And yes, we were relevant. We were in the top 4 of the ACC, went to an ACC finals, crushed a pretty good Duke team in the ACC semi's and were seeded 4th in the big dance.
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All-In [30593]
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absolutely***
Nov 21, 2014, 4:34 PM
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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I'm not denying that it was a success
Nov 21, 2014, 4:38 PM
[ in reply to But getting to your entire point about the history of ] |
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But to say it was an unqualified success is a bit over-selling.
We made the NCAAs, but how far did we go each time? You play the whole season to set yourself up for the NCAA tournament, and we sucked every time.
Making it the first time was great, and we were just happy to be there. But after repeating the same thing a few times, it was evident that OP couldn't take us much further. He knew it, too. Look how he left.
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Orange Blooded [2441]
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At least we were in the NCAA's...
Nov 21, 2014, 4:38 PM
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we aren't even sniffing them anymore.
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Hall of Famer [24856]
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That's correct***
Nov 22, 2014, 12:53 AM
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Legend [16121]
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Orange Blooded [2441]
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Again, I'll take Clemson basketball under OP
Nov 21, 2014, 4:06 PM
[ in reply to All wasn't rosy when Purnell left ] |
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than under BB any day. I enjoyed actually making the tourney, even if we lost in the first round.
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110%er [6937]
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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What does that even look like for us?
Nov 21, 2014, 4:24 PM
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Are we going to drastically increase donations? Are we going to spend a ton more on bball? Where will the money come from to land a top flight coach? Will our rebuilt arena rival that of Louisville's? Will our training facilities be as good as UNC's?
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Orange Blooded [2441]
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Build for next year and beyond? This is year 5
Nov 21, 2014, 3:35 PM
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and we haven't been to the NCAA since year 1, with OP's players. BB just isn't the guy to take us to that next level. He is a decent X's and O's coach, but to coach at a downtrodden program like ours, you need more than that. You need energy and salesmanship (something it seems BB has little of) or you need to play an entertaining style of play that will attract better athletes and players. I wish BB was the guy, but by now, isn't it realistic to conclude that he isn't?
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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OK, who do you replace him with?
Nov 21, 2014, 3:38 PM
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Keep in mind how dreadful our basketball history is, how pathetic the fan support is, and how bad our facility situation will be for the next year+.
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Orange Blooded [2441]
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I wanted a guy like Bruce Pearl, so let's see how
Nov 21, 2014, 3:54 PM
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he does at Auburn.
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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Auburn doesn't play in the ACC
Nov 21, 2014, 4:03 PM
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I think we could be a decent SEC team. Hard comparison to make.
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Legend [16121]
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Legend [16121]
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Honestly, the exciting style of play argument is sad, just
Nov 21, 2014, 3:38 PM
[ in reply to Build for next year and beyond? This is year 5 ] |
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sad...I'm sorry you don't understand basketball and need a gimmick to keep you interested.
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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OP's teams were exciting, but frustrating as well
Nov 21, 2014, 3:40 PM
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People keep talking about him like that was the golden era.
I was in basketball pep band for three of his years here. I got to see tons of heartbreaking losses because of that awful offense. And there were certain teams that broke our press with ease. We struggled a lot with size, much more so than these Brownell teams.
Neither coach has been close to perfect.
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Orange Blooded [2441]
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No one is calling OP a coaching genius, but facts are facts
Nov 21, 2014, 3:44 PM
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Under OP, we went to three tournaments in a row, an ACC tournament final appearance and were generally in the top 4-5 every year of the league. I'll take where we were as a program under OP, as frustrating as it could be at times, over where we are now under BB any day.
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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BB is going to have to contend with a bunch of
Nov 21, 2014, 3:47 PM
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Big East teams, plus Notre Dame now.
These last two games sucked, but you haven't seen anything yet. And given the resources he has at his disposal, I can't place the blame 100% on him. There isn't any excuse for these last two games, but if we're talking big picture I'm mostly happy. Last year we drastically outperformed expectations, this year our expectations needs to be much lower.
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Orange Blooded [2441]
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I didn't say for fans to remain interested. I said it's for
Nov 21, 2014, 3:42 PM
[ in reply to Honestly, the exciting style of play argument is sad, just ] |
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recruits who would rather run and gun than play a grind it out, defense first mentality. I understand basketball just fine and I understand we just lost to GW and Winthrop with supposedly superior coaching ability from BB. If that's so (and I do think BB is a decent X and O's coach), then the obvious problem is the talent. THus far, other than a player here and there, BB has not shown the ability to bring in better talent.
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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Re: I didn't say for fans to remain interested. I said it's for
Nov 21, 2014, 3:45 PM
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> and there, BB has not shown the ability to bring in
> better talent.
You do know how we did last year, and what we've got in the pipe for next year, right? He did sign KJ, did he not?
He's got his problems, but he's improving on the recruiting trail. It just needs to start showing soon on the box scores.
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Orange Blooded [2441]
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I said other than a player here and there...
Nov 21, 2014, 3:50 PM
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like KJ or Grantham. But he missed on Mack this year and the other two guys aren't too highly regarded. Just look at their offer lists.
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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Again, we are Clemson
Nov 21, 2014, 3:56 PM
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These two guys aren't being pursued by Duke, but we're not realistically going to go head to head with the Dukes and the Syracuses and the Lousivilles without investing a similar amount in our BBall program.
To expect us to go out and snag top tier talent is to be unrealistic right now.
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Legend [16121]
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Orange Blooded [2441]
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A lot. OP's teams wanted games in the 80's. BB's teams
Nov 21, 2014, 4:37 PM
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want games in the 50's. That's what I meant by defense first.
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Legend [16121]
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OP's team were all about the press, that is defense first
Nov 21, 2014, 4:50 PM
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son, I don't care how you try to spin it
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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It was defense, but it was a much more limited approach
Nov 21, 2014, 4:54 PM
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If we couldn't turn them over in transition or get a hand on a bad pass, we were screwed and gave up lots of points.
BB's defense is in-your-face in the half court. With OP's teams, if you could break the press, you were probably going to be able to score some points. With BB's defense, you are going to have to grind it out for every shot.
Except for these last two games. We've been slow and lumbering.
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Letterman [272]
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That was what we said about last year....
Nov 21, 2014, 3:36 PM
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We're now in year 5 of the Brownell era. Just how many years does he get a free pass ?
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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We were an excellent defensive team last year. Losing 1 guy
Nov 21, 2014, 3:40 PM
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shouldn't change that so dramatically. Against smallish lower level basketball teams we play poor perimeter defense and give up too many rebounds. That is what is so surprising to me.
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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The defense today was #### poor, no argument there
Nov 21, 2014, 3:41 PM
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But with the size difference, we should have been tearing it up on offense. That's where we miss that one guy.
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Orange Blooded [2896]
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You get what you pay for. Coots go after spurrier, Lou and
Nov 21, 2014, 3:40 PM
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Martin(yes, all scumbags but known commodities). We go bargain basement route. Spend the d@mn money or shut program down. Embarrassing!
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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What do you expect? Look at our history.
Nov 21, 2014, 3:42 PM
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Clemson basketball is arguably the worst program (historically) in the conference. Do you think you could do any better given our situation? Nevermind our awful facilities, lackluster fan support, and unrealistic fan expectations (even though they can't be bothered to attend the games).
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Orange Blooded [2896]
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Basketball is 80% recruiting& 20% coaching. I can't see BB
Nov 21, 2014, 3:46 PM
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Being very dynamic on the recruiting trail.
Unfortunately, the program has been so bad for so long that fans are in" show me something first" mode before I waste my time and get emotionally invested into garbage.
D@mn intramural team on campus right now could beat Gardner Webb. It's a joke
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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He signed a good class last year, signed KJ, and
Nov 21, 2014, 3:48 PM
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we've got the beginnings of an outstanding class for next year put together.
His first two years, recruiting wasn't good at all. But he's definitely turned it around last year and this year. It's just going to take time to replace some of these less talented players. Or in the case of our situation at Center, find an ACC-caliber player that isn't a 3-year project.
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Orange Blooded [4550]
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Orange Blooded [2922]
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Here's the problem......
Nov 21, 2014, 3:50 PM
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I think most people have a fairly realistic expectation for this basketball team. We would love to be somewhat pleasantly surprised like last year and end up in the middle of the ACC and perhaps on the NCAA tournament bubble. Our conference schedule is frontloaded, so we figured to take some lumps in January but then have an opportunity to finish well if we stayed mentally tough.
But, I think we all assumed that we do fairly well in the non-conference slate. Not that we would be world-beaters or anything, but that we would win games against Winthrop and Gardner Webb and such, and perhaps win some of the other games and get to conference play with a pretty good record.
Blowing a double digit second half lead to Gardner Webb and losing to them is extremely disappointing.
I assume this team will get better as the year goes on, but if you lose enough games early you can still play your way out of tournament consideration by digging too large of a hole.
I like Brownell a lot as a coach. But this is a very difficult way to start the season.
It will be interesting to see if the team can respond with a win tomorrow.
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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Agreed. We're on the same page.
Nov 21, 2014, 3:54 PM
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These last two aren't excusable. But in the grand scheme of things, it's not going to matter a ton if we squeak out some wins against bad teams. We're still going to be a dumpster fire this year.
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Orange Blooded [2441]
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And I guess our point is how is being a dumpster fire
Nov 21, 2014, 3:55 PM
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in year 5 of BB's tenure acceptable?
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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Even the best have bad years. See UNC recently.
Nov 21, 2014, 3:58 PM
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Our bad years are just much worse. It's not realistic to expect great teams every year at Clemson. Last year was a "good" year relative to expectations. This year we're down to reality.
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Orange Blooded [2441]
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So even in a good year, we shouldn't expect a NCAA
Nov 21, 2014, 4:08 PM
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berth? I'm sorry but my expectations are higher than that. I don't expect to go every year but I expect to be better than we are now.
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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What are you talking about? I didn't mention the NCAAs.***
Nov 21, 2014, 4:12 PM
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Orange Blooded [2441]
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You said last year was a good year and I was just saying
Nov 21, 2014, 4:19 PM
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that we didn't make the NCAA in what you considered a good year.
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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We were picked to finish in the bottom 1/4 of the ACC
Nov 21, 2014, 4:23 PM
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We exceeded those expectations and almost snagged an NCAA berth.
I consider it "good" in that we overperformed. Good, not great.
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Orange Blooded [2441]
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Got it, and I was generally happy with last year...
Nov 21, 2014, 4:29 PM
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assuming it was a stepping stone. It obviously wasn't. Guys like SoccerKZy were all over me and others last year saying the same things you are today. That we need to wait til next year, or the following year. And I guess our point is, when can we stop waiting? Hasn't BB had enough time to at least get us back to the big dance? It obviously isn't happening this year and probably not likely next year either. So when is it okay to admit BB has taken us as far as he can and we need to look elsewhere?
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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I think he needs to stay long enough to see the new arena
Nov 21, 2014, 4:48 PM
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We'll still be very much behind in the facilities arms race, but we wouldn't be embarrassingly bad as we are now. Seriously, go walk through the player sections of LJ. It's depressing.
I'd also like to see them give him more money to improve his assistant coaching staff. We lost some good ones the last few years. Go out and get some top flight guys. Make use of the new arena on the recruiting trail.
If he can't get it done with the new arena and some budget breathing room, it'd be time to go. The current situation isn't very good, so I can't get too irate with him.
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Legend [15787]
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You nailed it...NIT will be a big accomplishment this year
Nov 21, 2014, 3:55 PM
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I'll still watch and pull for them all year but it is going to be tough. I still think BB is the right guy.
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CU Guru [1950]
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We knew we'd struggle in the ACC...
Nov 21, 2014, 4:02 PM
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I don't think anyone could have predicted losses to the preseason #4 and #7 teams in the Big South. I doubt either team has a player on their roster who received an ACC offer out of HS. No way to spin it, this team is off to an unacceptable start to the season.
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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I'm not defending these first two games at all
Nov 21, 2014, 4:04 PM
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They aren't excusable.
But in all honesty, those two wins wouldn't have bought us anything this year. That doesn't make it OK that we crapped the bed, but it's no reason to start calling for heads. This year is going to suck, and we knew that coming in.
There won't be an NCAA berth, there won't be an NIT berth, there won't be an ACC tourny run.
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Orange Blooded [2441]
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So when it is reasonable for us to expect
Nov 21, 2014, 4:11 PM
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an NCAA berth or an ACC tourney run? Year 6? Year 7? Longer? I'm not being facetious either.
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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With the new big east teams + ND, it won't happen without
Nov 21, 2014, 4:13 PM
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a huge change of priorities in the athletic department. I think you may be underestimating the kinds of programs that just got added to the mix.
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Orange Blooded [2441]
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I'm not underestimating Louisville and Syracuse...
Nov 21, 2014, 4:25 PM
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but they are not the teams keeping us from getting bids. In fact, they only help us because if we beat them, it's a great win and if we lose, we were expected to lose. The teams keeping us from the NCAA's are teams like Coastal Carolina, Va Tech and BC (a bad BC) two years ago, Auburn, Arkansas and Wake last year, and already Winthrop and GW this year,
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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Huh? They're on the schedule. Of course they'd keep us out
Nov 21, 2014, 4:30 PM
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Clemson has always been able to squeak one out against a superior opponent every once in a while. Now we're having to play superior opponents more often. Our horseshoe doesn't work every game, or even every few games.
If we lose most of the games we play against quality opponents, we're not a tourny team. To win most of those games against quality opponents, we have to be better than them (Syracuse, ND, UNC, Duke, Pitt, Lou, etc).
I don't think we can do that without a huge rethinking of basketball at Clemson. And it'd still take many years to change the perception of the program.
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Orange Blooded [2481]
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Thank Brad for the Gardner Webb loss
Nov 21, 2014, 4:05 PM
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apparently,
he learned nothing from the Winthop (sp) loss.
and then, the time out?
Yea, I agree with your post.
#21
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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Awful performance as a whole last two games***
Nov 21, 2014, 4:15 PM
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Orange Blooded [2517]
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We're wasting money on a new facility....
Nov 21, 2014, 4:57 PM
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nothing is going to change and it is an effort in futility to believe that we'll ever be more than 1 or 2 games above .500 in our conference.
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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It will at least keep us treading water
Nov 21, 2014, 5:00 PM
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LJ is looking worse and worse with age. Especially in comparison to some of these basketball palaces that are being built elsewhere.
Our training facilities are outright pitiful. I've seen bigger weight rooms in hotels. Our practice court (singular) is shared by the men and the women, and is barely big enough for people to stand on the sidelines without being up against the wall.
Oh, and you can forget about the recruit-pleasers like fancy player lounges and the basketball Oculus.
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