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Heisman Winner [105574]
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Case Study: Leonard Hamilton
Feb 12, 2020, 11:32 AM
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I have seen some posts here asking why Clemson can't be dominant in basketball if FSU can. Fair question!
My answer would be that we don't have a program builder like Leonard Hamilton.
Let's look at Lenoard Hamilton's coaching record:
-He was hired in 1986 by Oklahoma State. Oklahoma State was a terrible program. In fact, from the 1965-1966 season through the 1985-1986 season before Hamilton was hired, they had only made the NCAA tournament one time. Heck, over that same stretch, they only had 5 winning seasons in 21 years! Leonard Hamilton began their rebuilding process and in his 4 years there he finished with 2 winning seasons. That literally set the stage for OSU to make it to the NCAA tournament 13 out of the next 15 years. Leonard Hamilton turning them around the way he did was an incredible feat! -In 1990, he was hired by Miami. Now here's where it gets interesting. In 1971 Da U made the decision to drop basketball all together. Literally they had no basketball program for 14 years until they started back up in 1985 with Bill Foster. In Foster's 5 years there (directly preceding Leonard Hamilton) he was ok, but only had 2 winning seasons and never made a post-season tournament. Enter Leonard Hamilton who miraculously took Miami to the NIT tournament in just his 4th and 6th years as a coach, and then rattled off 3 straight NCAA Tournament appearances, including a Sweet 16 appearance his final year in Miami. Let that sink in for a moment, Leonard Hamilton took over a program that didn't even exist 6 years before he was hired and before leaving took them to 3 straight NCAA Tournaments in years 7-9!
-In 2002, he was hired by Florida State. He is in his 18th year at FSU and we all know how successful he has been there. But did you know that when he was hired, he took over a program that had experienced 4 consecutive losing seasons? Heck, just 2 years before he took that job, FSU only won 9 games! Then Leonard Hamilton came in and guided them to a winning season and an NIT appearance in just his 2nd year. In year 4 he won 20 games, which was a big accomplishment because FSU hadn't had a 20-win season since the 1996-1997 season. In fact, FSU had only had one 20-win season in the previous 12 seasons! That was certainly a catalyst because since his 4th season, Leonard Hamilton has made the NCAA Tournament 7 times, including an elite 8 appearance. Also impressive is that in the last 5 trips to the tournament, they have not lost a game in the round of 64.
I post this to show that Leonard Hamilton may be one of the best program builders ever to coach college basketball. He took over 3 programs that were all terrible, with OSU and Miami being historically bad and/or non-existent and he made them all winners.
So to address the first sentence in this post, there is a big difference between Hamilton and Brownell. Hamilton had never taken over a winner before, he only took over losers and turned them into winners. Brownell took over a program at Clemson that had been to 3 straight NCAA tournaments and this year, in year 10, our record more closely resembles the type of team Hamilton has taken over in the past.
Disclaimer: This post isn't to suggest or imply that Brownell will not all of a sudden turn us into a great basketball program. Leonard Hamilton was simply offered as an example of a coach who has done it very quickly everywhere he has gone. In other words, you can't necessarily conclude that a coach who inherited winning programs, but has had very limited success over 10 years will necessarily turn that around in the future (unlike Hamilton who made very quick turnarounds for losing programs that he inherited).
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All-TigerNet [10824]
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Re: Case Study: Leonard Hamilton
Feb 12, 2020, 11:58 AM
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Thanks. Well written. What you say about Hamilton is unquestionably true. He's done a great job. But, don't you think for every program builder there are many more who are not able, for one reason or another, to build a team from one level of performance to the next? Brownell's results have been disappointing. Perhaps we are expecting too much. I thought Clemson was on a somewhat better track with Oliver Purnell, but he decided to go to the Windy City, where his teams pretty much got blown away. Honestly don't know what to make of Clemson basketball. It's just been the same story for years and years, with a few upticks here and there. Would a guy like Hamilton be able to turn us around? Maybe, maybe not. I do feel that CBB's time is running short.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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The unfortunate part is, we didn't need a program builder
Feb 12, 2020, 12:21 PM
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we just needed someone to maintain. Honestly, I don't think the view of Clemson basketball should be as negative as it is. Aside from Shyatt and a few of Brownell's seasons the program hasn't been bad the last 45 years.
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All-TigerNet [10824]
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Re: The unfortunate part is, we didn't need a program builder
Feb 12, 2020, 12:28 PM
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That is correct, not bad. I just checked, Clemson Basketball is 203 games above .500 since 1975, which is much better than the previous 45 years. Perhaps, we are just comparing Clemson bball to some of the other conference teams and it seems like we are bad. Maybe we'd be better in a different conference?
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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Some years, yes. We knew this year would be a complete
Feb 12, 2020, 12:56 PM
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rebuilding year. The timing was bad considering this is a down year for the ACC comparatively speaking.
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All-In [44032]
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All-In [28373]
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Re: Please tell us which few of Brownell's seasons have been bad***
Feb 12, 2020, 1:55 PM
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try most of them - average is bad. loser mentality
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Legend [16902]
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Orange Blooded [2480]
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I would say a loss in the 1st round of NIT despite
Feb 12, 2020, 3:25 PM
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being HEAVILY FAVORED AT HOME is PATHETIC.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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Heisman Winner [139930]
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What’s the definition of bad?
Feb 12, 2020, 3:00 PM
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Sub .500? No NCAA Tournament invite? No NIT invite? Fewer wins compared to other coaches who didn’t make the NCAA at previous jobs? Do we count all seasons or just seasons after the first successful season?
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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Sure, pick any and/or all of those***
Feb 12, 2020, 5:27 PM
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Please tell us which few of Brownell's seasons have been bad***
Feb 12, 2020, 2:59 PM
[ in reply to Please tell us which few of Brownell's seasons have been bad*** ] |
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12-13, 16-17
The 12-13 was all around bad, the 16-17 was just disappointing in conference play.
14-15 was a so-so year.
However, the most painful was 13-14 when we were snubbed for the NCAA. They literally reached down below us to a 9-9 State team we beat earlier that month.
Other than that, we have finished between 3rd and 8th every year.
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Heisman Winner [139930]
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I am very interested in your thoughts on...
Feb 12, 2020, 12:32 PM
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Larry Coker and Butch Davis.
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Hall of Famer [21752]
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The case study on Larry Coker can probably be done...
Feb 12, 2020, 12:36 PM
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In 2 sentences or less.
~JKB
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Heisman Winner [139930]
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You're right, it worked!
Feb 12, 2020, 12:41 PM
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Larry Coker has the 3rd highest winning percentage in Miami history. Larry Coker is a winner.
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Hall of Famer [21752]
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Mine would be...
Feb 12, 2020, 12:50 PM
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“He stood on the sideline and watched the 2001 National Championship win. Then things got real in 2002.”
~JKB
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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No Larry Coker case study would be complete without
Feb 12, 2020, 12:55 PM
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an Uncle Fester reference. Keep drinking that fail nog guys!
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Heisman Winner [139930]
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Are you suggesting there is more than one way to interpret..
Feb 12, 2020, 12:55 PM
[ in reply to Mine would be... ] |
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data? Especially if you cherry pick the stats you use?
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Hall of Famer [21752]
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This sounds familiar...
Feb 12, 2020, 12:33 PM
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But I like this juan a whole lot better. Thus, +1.
~JKB
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Case Study: Leonard Hamilton
Feb 12, 2020, 12:39 PM
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I kinda agree but a few points:
First, I would say Foster's tenure at Miami was extremely successful. Above .500 in their first 5 year of re-existence. That was stability (but not existence) that LH built on. Back then, if you were an independent D1 basketball program, you were likely sub-12 win terrible. LH really took it next level and navigated BE membership (which likely both helped in the long run and increased the difficulty early but hey better than the other way around right?)
Next - I would not say that taking over OP was "taking over a winner" unless you want to say Geoff Collins taking over a "winning" GT football program from PCJ. OP ran a very specific system and unless you were only going to play his press (and it as falling out of favor) then I would consider it a "new deal". It was one of Clemson's best runs, but it was dependent on a specific style that does not transition well. That being said, basketball flips easier than football... so...
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Case Study: Leonard Hamilton
Feb 12, 2020, 12:39 PM
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* (but not excellence)
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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Agree on Foster at Miami. My "ok" comment was really
Feb 12, 2020, 12:53 PM
[ in reply to Re: Case Study: Leonard Hamilton ] |
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looking at season by season in a vacuum and comparing it to what Hamilton was able to accomplish. But you are correct that he was extremely successful considering he started from scratch.
Disagree on the OP point, but mainly because Brad made it work really well his first year and made it to the tournament. When hired, Brownell even said it wasn't going to be a rebuild and the only real difference defensively is we will play more aggressively in the half court as opposed to zone pressing and forcing steals in the first few seconds of a possession.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Agree on Foster at Miami. My "ok" comment was really
Feb 12, 2020, 3:12 PM
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IDK, granted I give OP a lot of credit for rebuilding after Shyatt.... but have an issue on the final results and how he left. I can't call his product a "winning" program, rather he was a coach that was winning some at a program.
I think the lack of the "next step" and NCAA record.... and how he left hurt the program. The four decent year didn't build us into a winning program and a fast departure could *would* destroy a program. BB did a good job stemming the damage but year 2/3 on his record shows there were some major changing taking place and had to reassert that Clemson was a viable option. The NCAA snub in 13-14 hurt BB's growth entering into the reconstruction phase.
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Heisman Winner [134219]
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can you do a case study on that midget
Feb 12, 2020, 1:02 PM
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cutigerbob®?
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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No***
Feb 12, 2020, 1:05 PM
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Heisman Winner [134219]
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Why?***
Feb 12, 2020, 1:24 PM
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All-In [44032]
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Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
Feb 12, 2020, 1:44 PM
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Thank you!
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All-In [44032]
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Also, you are cherry-picking stats to fit your argument.***
Feb 12, 2020, 1:46 PM
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CU Guru [1852]
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Re: Also, you are cherry-picking stats to fit your argument.***
Feb 12, 2020, 1:50 PM
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The case study is incredibly easy. The OP has a nice summary of stats and data but it’s simple, Hamilton builds similar to Dabo.
Collegiate sports is more about having the best players than it is coaching. See Clemson’s rise to success and the Top 100 and Top 30 players that fueled it.
Hamilton recruits very well and hires assistants to coach. During timeouts it’s the assistant coaches who are drawing up the plays. If you can’t attract top talent you can’t win. Brownell needs to recruit better, period. If he can’t, we need a coach who can. (Disclaimer I’m not advocating for a Bruce Pearl type who cheats)
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Hall of Famer [21846]
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Thanks GWP, glad to see an unbiased take on Hamilton
Feb 12, 2020, 2:58 PM
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Vs one with cherry picked stats to try to sway the uninformed.
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Oculus Spirit [96831]
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Thanks for chiming in, Barb***
Feb 12, 2020, 3:06 PM
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Heisman Winner [139930]
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Re: Thanks for chiming in, Barb***
Feb 12, 2020, 3:13 PM
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Hall of Famer [21846]
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No problem, Bob.
Feb 12, 2020, 5:16 PM
[ in reply to Thanks for chiming in, Barb*** ] |
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It was half witted and someone apparently doesn’t understand that Barbara doesn’t carry the same negative connotation as Karen....
I feel like Barbara aka Barb is actually quite a distinguished name.
So it is what it is.
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Oculus Spirit [82035]
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Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
Feb 12, 2020, 5:19 PM
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your whalecome
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110%er [5096]
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Re: Case Study: Leonard Hamilton
Feb 12, 2020, 3:43 PM
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It just takes the right coach to get it it going. I thought Rick Barnes could of been that guy but he left. I really believe making the tournament every other year is possible at Clemson. 68 teams make it, it's not asking to much.
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CU Guru [1250]
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You Forgot
Feb 12, 2020, 3:54 PM
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to mention the extraNCAA rules activities.
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