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Science, atheism, and whatnot.
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Lot o points [155907]
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All-In [26968]
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Atheism is as much a religion as anything else.
Mar 20, 2019, 4:35 PM
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It takes the same degree of faith as other religions, just faith pointed in a different direction. I consider agnosticism and atheism forms of what I call "autotheism," where self is god.
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All-TigerNet [12851]
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and are about as tolerant as Shariah***
Mar 20, 2019, 4:46 PM
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All-TigerNet [12098]
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Yep the secular humanists are the kinder, gentler atheists
Mar 20, 2019, 5:21 PM
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which is why you never hear about them.
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Lot o points [155907]
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I’ll disagree on agnostics.
Mar 20, 2019, 4:57 PM
[ in reply to Atheism is as much a religion as anything else. ] |
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I think it takes a degree of humility to admit you don’t know something.
Ever gone on a date with someone and when you ask where they want to go, they say “I don’t care, wherever you want to go”....that’s the agnostic. It’s a stance that almost seems the opposite of self centered to me.
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All-In [26968]
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I don't mean "autotheism" as an antonym for "humility"
Mar 20, 2019, 5:04 PM
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Or as an insult of any kind. What I mean is that the agnostic places, at the top of the list, his own mind. I need to "know," I need "evidence". I'll believe something if I decide the evidence is sufficient.
I'll speak for myself and say that I'm often "autotheistic".
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Oculus Spirit [97719]
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I disagree. I think they just have no faith in anything
Mar 20, 2019, 5:35 PM
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they can't see or comprehend. We're all just animals living on an isolated rock in the universe and there's nothing more or deeper to life and existence than that. Nothing selfish or self-centered about that.
I believe in a God if for no other reason than there has to be a genesis. An alpha and omega. As such, there has to be a God. Some god. And it will be something we will never know because we never will know the beginning or the end. I also believe faith in God, any God really, places humans above the entire animal kingdom and allows us to coexist in a manner other animals could never accomplish. Without a belief in God, we would be just as savage as the lion, the tiger, or any other animal.
Just my $0.02
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All-In [26968]
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Again, I am not saying anything about being
Mar 20, 2019, 5:40 PM
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"selfish or self-centered". When you said "no faith in anything they can't see or comprehend"...that's exactly what I'm talking about. It's about being able to see, comprehend, observe. Therefore, my senses and ability to understand is what I put faith in. Autotheism.
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Oculus Spirit [97719]
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Doesn't mean you put faith in yourself...no "auto" about it
Mar 20, 2019, 6:02 PM
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There is just no faith period. No "theism" period.
I know this is a tough one to comprehend. But it's actually the only type I can actually understand.
Many people who say they believe in "nothing" are often quick to believe in science, or themselves, or whatever. It's rare, but I have no problem with those who have faith in nothing because they have no faith period. In anything. That's an honest and logical position. But to say I have no faith in God, ANY God, then place faith in science, or whatever, those are the types I disagree with. They still have faith, in something.
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Heisman Winner [137922]
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CU Medallion [60043]
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Re: No, it's not.******
Mar 21, 2019, 7:41 AM
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Heisman Winner [111580]
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Lot o points [155907]
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That would be a fantastic analogy except for
Mar 21, 2019, 10:25 AM
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The weekly circle jerks the abstainers would have while celebrating their superiority over those ignorant rubes who practiced missionary, doggy, and reverse cowgirl.
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All-In [31894]
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Standout [345]
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Re: Atheism is as much a religion as anything else.
Mar 20, 2019, 7:55 PM
[ in reply to Atheism is as much a religion as anything else. ] |
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As an agnostic I don't agree with that. I simply do not know. There is nothing definitive either way so to force myself one way or the other seems odd. Maybe there is an all-powerful being, maybe we are a product of chance. We don't know, hence why faith is required, as you point out, by the religious and the full-blown atheist alike.
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All-In [38514]
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As an atheist, agnostic, whatever I disagree.
Mar 21, 2019, 7:42 AM
[ in reply to Atheism is as much a religion as anything else. ] |
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I don't even have a word for what I am because I just don't have any beliefs regarding God. I just don't think about it. It requires no faith to not think about something. I think the religious believe that the non-religious must actively reject belief in God, but not believing something for which you've seen no evidence is not rejection.
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Heisman Winner [111580]
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Re: As an atheist, agnostic, whatever I disagree.
Mar 21, 2019, 8:43 AM
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hold up, we may be on to something. Can the Church of atheism also serve as a tax shelter, being that it is a religion and all.
?
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Hall of Famer [24768]
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How many members would constitute "church" status...?***
Mar 21, 2019, 2:47 PM
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Walk-On [147]
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Re: Science, atheism, and whatnot.
Mar 21, 2019, 10:59 AM
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He makes a huge mistake right off the bat with this statement:
"It’s a statement, a categorical statement that expresses belief in nonbelief. “I don’t believe even though I have no evidence for or against, simply I don’t believe.” Period. It’s a declaration.
I'm not an atheist, but those who are have plenty of evidence that has led them to the conclusion that a higher power does not exist.
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Lot o points [155907]
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out of curiosity,
Mar 21, 2019, 11:16 AM
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Can you supply some of this definitive evidence against the existence of a higher power?
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Walk-On [147]
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Re: out of curiosity,
Mar 21, 2019, 11:35 AM
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Didn't say it was definitive, but there are a couple I would point to....
1. The chaos in the universe and on earth. For example random weather events like hurricanes and tornadoes wiping out towns and villages. The only explanation for why these things are allowed to happen I've heard is "God works in mysterious ways"...
2. Scientific evidence that contradicts the Bible and other religious texts that claim we were created in our present human form.
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All-In [49046]
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Struggle is part of our existence
Mar 21, 2019, 11:40 AM
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we can't survive without it.
My mom always explained point two as humans being too prideful. That we read genesis as literally 7 days as understand them when God may not have operated on the concept of 24 hour sun rotation days. I'm explaining too much but really the point is what she actually said, "Who are we to know what God means when he says a day?"
I'm sure there are other Christians who vehemently disagree with this, but I don't think evolution and the bible are irreconcilable.
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Lot o points [155907]
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I agree***
Mar 21, 2019, 11:49 AM
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Walk-On [147]
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Re: Struggle is part of our existence
Mar 21, 2019, 12:39 PM
[ in reply to Struggle is part of our existence ] |
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I agree with most of that, but not that evolution and the Bible are compatible.
The Bible clearly teaches we were created as perfect beings walking in harmony with the creator. Whether a day in Genesis means an actual 24 hour period or millions of years doesn't change that.
Evolution implies that our species has sort of perfected itself over time. So if it's true, the Genesis account can not be.
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Lot o points [155907]
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I purposely said definitive
Mar 21, 2019, 11:49 AM
[ in reply to Re: out of curiosity, ] |
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Because without definitive evidence, we’ve come full circle, with both the atheist and me requiring a certain degree of faith that our interpretation of available “non-definitive” evidence is the correct one.
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Walk-On [147]
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Re: I purposely said definitive
Mar 21, 2019, 12:30 PM
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You’re obviously looking at this from the perspective of someone who has had a spiritual experience that caused them to believe.
There are people out there that have never set foot in a church or been taught about any sort of God that look at the world and have no reason to believe in a creator.
It’s not a leap of faith to come to the conclusion based on the evidence we have that the world we live in arose naturally.
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Lot o points [155907]
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Couldn’t disagree more with your last line
Mar 21, 2019, 12:40 PM
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In fact, in times where I’ve struggled with my faith, taking a practical look at our origins brings me back to a staunch belief in a higher power.
It takes faith to be a Christian/Muslim/Hindu, etc. However, IMHO, it takes basic logic to believe in a generic higher power.
Right now the best science can offer is the Big Bang theory—-ok, great...I’ll even concede the theory is 100% accurate......so where did the Big Bang come from? Who or what caused it and why? If you figure out that answer with a scientific explanation, go up a layer and ask where that came from?
To me, the thought that at one time there was absolutely nothing, and from that the entire universe sprang forth in a big cosmic coincidence is far, far whackier than thinking there’s something bigger than ourselves that had a hand in the universe and everything in it coming into existence.
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Walk-On [147]
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Re: Couldn’t disagree more with your last line
Mar 21, 2019, 12:53 PM
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"To me, the thought that at one time there was absolutely nothing, and from that the entire universe sprang forth in a big cosmic coincidence is far, far whackier than thinking there’s something bigger than ourselves that had a hand in the universe and everything in it coming into existence."
This is my mindset as well, however the thought that a higher power simply existed for eternity past is even more perplexing.
So who or what created God?
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Lot o points [155907]
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I purposely said definitive
Mar 21, 2019, 12:59 PM
[ in reply to Re: I purposely said definitive ] |
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Spiritual experiences are the result of emotional and chemical responses in the brain.
You should research N,N-Dimethyltryptamine. Also called "DMT".
DMT is the most powerful hallucinogen compound known to man, more powerful than LSD. And your body produces it.
You have a gland located in the middle of your brain called the "Pineal Gland". It produces melatonin and serotonin to manage your body's sleep cycle. The Pineal Gland also produces large quantities of DMT when triggered. We don't know why it does this, we just know it does.
DMT production is triggered during 3 specific conditions that we know of, all of which are when your brain is in a "near death" or "hyper imaginative state".
1. Sleeping. Have you ever had a dream while you are sleeping? That is the result of your pineal gland producing DMT during REM sleep as your body interprets sleep as a form of "near death" or "comatose" state.
2. Near death experiences or in a deep comatose state. Ever heard of people "dying" in a car wreck or on the operating table, and they float into some kind of "light" and hear a "supernatural voice" talking to them? Or perhaps they perceive themselves floating above their body while in the ambulance or something? That is the body triggering a "shut down protocol" to keep itself comfortable and stable as your body shuts down and dies, or is comatose. While this occurs, the Pineal Gland releases MASSIVE quantities of DMT. Every "I died and went to heaven and spoke to an angel!" experience is actually someone going temporarily comatose from trauma and tripping balls off of the DMT their pineal gland is producing.
3. Whenever you have stimulated your brain into a "highly imaginative" or "lucid" state. You wont like this, but it is proven science. Ever go to church and see someone get REALLY into the worship service? Hands up in the air, claiming they can literally "hear" a voice from heaven talking to them? "Praying" so intently in a quiet room that they suddenly hear a "voice" say something to them? That is DMT at work. As you get older, this gets more difficult to do, but it is possible to engage your imagination so vividly, while conscious, that your brain releases serotonin and small quantities of DMT. You literally get your brain so worked up that it starts imagining things on its own and projecting those imaginative hallucinations into your active consciousness by overloading itself with serotonin and DMT.
You may believe you had a "spiritual experience", but the science proves you are just making yourself hallucinate.
However, many people call DMT the "spirit molecule". No one knows why it exists or what its function is, except that every living organism produces and consumes it as part of their biology. You, your dog, your tree, the grass, etc. all produce DMT. People who have been involved in studies on DMT all reported consistent hallucinations as well, which is unusual. Hallucinogenic substances make every person hallucinate differently, except for DMT. With DMT, people all report to have the same, consistent hallucination: that they get enveloped in some form of "light" and interact with a spirit-like all-present being. Those who believe there is some form of higher spiritual power have a theory that DMT and the Pineal glad are an "antenna" that allow you to understand whatever that high power is.
Interestingly enough, you can go take some of your grass clippings from the backyard and synthesize DMT with them. But, doing so is a Felony. Its strange, your body produces and consumes DMT every day, and you experience its effects through dreaming or intense meditation/prayer/etc. But if you make it in your kitchen and consume it, you commit a felony.
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All-In [49046]
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I kind of doubt that there are people
Mar 21, 2019, 2:58 PM
[ in reply to Re: I purposely said definitive ] |
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who look at the world and don't have some reason to believe in a creator. Even if you believe that the creator was random chance.
#### near every culture on earth has a creation story that expresses their understanding or belief of how things came to be. And there are remarkable numbers of similarities in those accounts. Floods, temptations of the Savior, etc.
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Lot o points [155907]
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C’mon man, that’s hippy-dippy, even for you
Mar 21, 2019, 4:36 PM
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Random chance does not count as a “creator”. In fact it’s almost the opposite.
That’s like saying”I doubt there is anyone who doesn’t like cars, even if a car to them is their own two feet”.
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All-In [49046]
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But random chance is a creation story...
Mar 21, 2019, 4:50 PM
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whether it relies on a creator or not.
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Lot o points [155907]
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I’m looking at it like this......
Mar 21, 2019, 4:53 PM
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It’s being here as the result of a sentient being of some variety vs a giant bunch of nothing farting out a couple billion galaxies.
They’re forms of creation, yes, but only one involves a creator.
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Lot o points [155907]
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and To clarify
Mar 21, 2019, 4:50 PM
[ in reply to C’mon man, that’s hippy-dippy, even for you ] |
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I just meant the part about virtually anything counting as a creator.
The rest, yeah, agree.
And remember, I said “with all due respect.”
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All-In [49046]
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Too late...
Mar 21, 2019, 4:52 PM
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our friendship is ruined.
Not really.
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Hall of Famer [24768]
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Good read... I'm logically from the Church of the Agnostics.***
Mar 21, 2019, 4:01 PM
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