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So...Blagojevich, DeBartolo, Milken, and Kerik.
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Heisman Winner [137863]
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So...Blagojevich, DeBartolo, Milken, and Kerik.
Feb 18, 2020, 2:34 PM
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Trump has had a busy day pardoning and commuting bribery, tax fraud, security laws violations, and...selling a Senate seat. Lulz. And the the standard crowd will defend it. Let's hear it. Why is this perfectly normal and acceptable?
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-to-commute-sentence-of-ex-gov-blagojevich-pardon-kerik Trump to commute sentence of ex-Gov. Blagojevich, pardon Kerik President Trump issued a spree of clemency decisions Tuesday for high-profile figures -- most notably commuting the sentence of former Democratic Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich, who was convicted for attempting to sell Barack Obama's vacant Senate seat when he was elected president.
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All-In [26968]
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Isn't it normal?
Feb 18, 2020, 2:41 PM
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This is part of being the President. I don't have any reason to say these are any "worse" than pardons and commutations given by other Presidents.
This doesn't register high on the ol' concern meter.
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All-In [26968]
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Clemency power is one of my favorite Presidential powers.
Feb 18, 2020, 2:54 PM
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Pardons and forgiveness are things we need more of.
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CU Medallion [56062]
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Aren't you in favor of capital punishment?***
Feb 18, 2020, 3:06 PM
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All-In [26968]
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Yes, obviously.***
Feb 18, 2020, 3:07 PM
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All-In [26968]
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If any of the people who received clemency
Feb 18, 2020, 3:08 PM
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are guilty of murder, then I would not support that. If that is the case, I apologize.
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All-In [42138]
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All-In [26968]
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Without taking a position on this specific case,
Feb 18, 2020, 3:12 PM
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It does not appear that this man was found guilty of murder.
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All-In [42138]
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Well, we never got to see justice play out.***
Feb 18, 2020, 3:12 PM
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CU Medallion [56062]
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All-In [26968]
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Yes, obviously.***
Feb 18, 2020, 3:10 PM
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CU Medallion [56062]
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Well maybe this isn't obvious, but
Feb 18, 2020, 3:18 PM
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it's kinda hard to grant clemency or commute someone's sentence after you've killed them.
If clemency is something we need more of, then perhaps you should reconsider your position on capital punishment.
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All-In [26968]
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Murder would be the only exception to me.
Feb 18, 2020, 3:22 PM
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Because it's the only crime for which God commanded mankind give a specific punishment. Any other crime, fair game, Biblically.
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CU Medallion [56062]
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Hey I have a question.
Feb 18, 2020, 3:39 PM
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Since abortion's murder, does God want us to kill the lady who gets an abortion or does God want us to kill the doctor who performs the abortion? Or both?
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All-In [26968]
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Yes.***
Feb 18, 2020, 4:30 PM
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All-In [42138]
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Except they tend...
Feb 18, 2020, 3:08 PM
[ in reply to Clemency power is one of my favorite Presidential powers. ] |
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To pardon rotten people who are friends or for political reasons while average people who actually need a pardon get overlooked. Trump isn't new with this behavior, but he's on a solid path to being one of the worst.
His worst pardon was the Navy SEAL.
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All-In [26968]
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OK, still doesn't bother me that much.
Feb 18, 2020, 3:10 PM
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I'd encourage any President to pardon and commute more. My understanding is that they typically do this using input from others, primarily. So I hope there are people out there fighting for those who deserve pardons, and trying to get that information to the President.
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CU Medallion [56062]
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Presidents are expected to pardon people who deserve it.
Feb 18, 2020, 2:57 PM
[ in reply to Isn't it normal? ] |
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Sometimes they pardon people who don't deserve it and it's controversial.
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All-In [26968]
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I have no reason to think these people don't deserve it.
Feb 18, 2020, 2:59 PM
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Not sure how you decide that anyway, without really knowing the person in a personal way.
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Legend [18018]
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yet you're for capital punishment?
Feb 18, 2020, 3:11 PM
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You can see the problem there right?
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All-In [26968]
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No. In fact, they are consistent views.
Feb 18, 2020, 3:13 PM
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Both capital punishment and forgiveness are Biblical principles.
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Legend [18018]
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I get that. But here's the thing...
Feb 18, 2020, 3:18 PM
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Your own logic tells you this, "Not sure how you decide that anyway, without really knowing the person in a personal way" in regards to pardoning a person. Yet, why don't you apply that same belief to capital punishment?
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All-In [26968]
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I'm talking about pardoning someone who is guilty.
Feb 18, 2020, 3:21 PM
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Pardoning (to me) is not about saying the person never did the bad thing. It's about saying "we are now going to treat you like you never did the bad thing". Well, now I'm about to shout a hallelujah because I'm thinking about when God pardoned me. Hmph.
So, I'm not saying knowing someone personally will tell you whether they are guilty or not. Just if they are "deserving" of being pardoned, by whatever standard you want to apply there. (contrition, good behavior, whatever)
Murder is the only crime where God gave mankind a blanket punishment for the crime (and this was outside of Mosaic Law). Once you are guilty of that, God says put them to death. It's not pleasant. It's awful. But it's right.
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Legend [18018]
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And what if they are "proven" to have murdered...
Feb 18, 2020, 3:28 PM
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and put to death only to find out they were innocent? Are we not all then guilty of murdering a person (as we are all part of the state and allowed for the punishment to exist)?
And if we are guilty of that sin (more so, guilty of being an accessory to murder) what does the Bible say our punishment shall be?
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CU Medallion [56062]
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Can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs!***
Feb 18, 2020, 3:35 PM
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All-In [26968]
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God didn't give the command of capital punishment
Feb 18, 2020, 4:30 PM
[ in reply to And what if they are "proven" to have murdered... ] |
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to perfect man. He gave it to imperfect man. So He gave it, knowing man's imperfections, and that man would sometimes make mistakes. That doesn't make God's command wrong.
A person shouldn't be found guilty of murder for wrongly finding someone guilty of murder any more than I would be guilty of it for accidentally hitting someone I couldn't see in the road. If one knowingly convicts knowing someone's innocence, that's a different story. God knows.
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Legend [18018]
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But we have the choice to use it or not
Feb 18, 2020, 4:52 PM
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and if we make that choice but it's wrong and we know it can be wrong, then we are guilty of at least manslaughter as a people (except I'd argue because of the intention bestowed by enacting capital punishment, it rises to the level of murder).
Unless you don't think we have a choice in the matter in which case you argue against God giving us free will.
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All-In [26968]
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Of course we have a choice.
Feb 18, 2020, 4:56 PM
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We always have a choice whether or not to do what God says to do, obviously.
I can't tell you anything except if God said it, then that settles it for me. All the ramifications of that, He can handle. I just do my job, and that is to obey.
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Legend [18018]
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If we only had life in prison for crimes like murder...
Feb 18, 2020, 4:59 PM
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would that be against God in your view?
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All-In [26968]
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I'm not out calling for people in prison to die.
Feb 18, 2020, 5:20 PM
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Any convicted murderer has forfeited His life in the eyes of God. If I were in charge, it would be an automatic punishment. But if a government chooses not to put that person to death, I'm not going to be angry about it. I'm not going to petition for more death. That judge or jury will answer for their decisions, just like I will mine.
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Legend [18018]
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I'm not saying you're calling for people in prison to die
Feb 18, 2020, 5:53 PM
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I'm asking if not allowing for the option of capital punishment (and instead having life in prison as the sole option) is against God in your opinion?
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All-In [26968]
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According to the Bible, yes.***
Feb 19, 2020, 7:34 AM
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Legend [18018]
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And should it be applied to adulterers, homosexuals too?
Feb 19, 2020, 2:45 PM
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as the bible instructs? Or all of us since the bible says all sin shall lead to death?
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All-In [26968]
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The Bible does not instruct us to do that.
Feb 19, 2020, 3:34 PM
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You're misapplying and misinterpreting, probably on purpose.
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Legend [18018]
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The old testament certainly says it
Feb 19, 2020, 5:02 PM
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Leviticus 20:13, Leviticus 20:10
Now, certainly the God of the New Testament is more loving and compassionate, but it is simply your misapplication and misinterpretation that leads you to believe that The Bible doesn't (at some point) instruct us to do that. You're probably doing this on purpose.
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All-In [26968]
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Key word is "us".
Feb 20, 2020, 6:14 AM
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The book of Leviticus isn't telling you to do anything, or me either. It told someone to do it, but not us.
That's why I made it a point that capital punishment was a command given to all mankind, early in the book of Genesis, not to a specific set of people at a specific time.
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All-In [26968]
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You will never, ever see me justifying any argument
Feb 20, 2020, 6:19 AM
[ in reply to The old testament certainly says it ] |
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(like arguments against homosexuality) using the book of Leviticus. It wasn't written for me and you to obey.
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Legend [18018]
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CU Medallion [60036]
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CU Medallion [56062]
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All-TigerNet [12851]
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CU Medallion [56062]
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Ok, but most pardons aren't controversial.***
Feb 18, 2020, 3:08 PM
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All-TigerNet [12851]
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depends on how loud the "slighted" party is
Feb 18, 2020, 3:10 PM
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and by party I don't mean D or R. I mean the "victim" of the crime that the person is pardoned from.
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All-In [26968]
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I know people may start listing specific cases...
Feb 18, 2020, 3:16 PM
[ in reply to Isn't it normal? ] |
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Please don't misconstrue my statements as a blanket statement of support for every specific pardon. I can't know enough to do that. I'm making general statements in support of pardons, in general, and taking a positive outlook on it when I have no reason to have a negative one. And I'm not out hunting for reasons to be negative and criticize.
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Legend [15492]
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Re: Isn't it normal?
Feb 19, 2020, 5:47 PM
[ in reply to Isn't it normal? ] |
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It's normal for President's to pardon, that is true. Bill Clinton pardoned Marc Rich, a Billionaire commodities trader who was indicted for income tax evasion and violating sanctions on Iran. Clinton pardoned him his last day in office, which was widely criticized.
Trump's pardon's are a little different. No President has ever done it during an election year. And it's unusual that most people he pardoned or commuted sentencing were convicted of corruption, obstruction, etc. 2 exceptions were women convicted of drug smuggling.
The son and daughter-in-law of Jack Pogue, one of the pardoned, has donated over $200,000 to Trump's campaign since August. Records show they had never donated more than $10,000 to a political campaign.
The thing about Trump is that he acts corruptly in public making it seem normal. His attacks on law enforcement, the DOJ and judges has been unrelenting since he took office. He's even attacked the Federal Judge who's about to sentence Roger Stone who was convicted of 7 felonies, one was that he'd lied to Congress about soliciting Hillary Clinton's emails from Wikileaks to help Trump's campaign.
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All-In [42138]
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Can't wait to see Trumpies scramble...
Feb 18, 2020, 2:45 PM
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To justify Trump commuting the sentence of a Democrat crook.
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Heisman Winner [137863]
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He's Kushner's buddy, so....
Feb 18, 2020, 2:47 PM
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that overrides being a Democrat (same as Trump when Blag was convicted, but hey, look over there!)
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All-In [42138]
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I can only imagine the howling...
Feb 18, 2020, 2:52 PM
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If Obama or alternate universe Pres. Hillary had pardoned Blagovich.
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CU Medallion [73569]
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All-In [42138]
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Maybe it's really just about...
Feb 18, 2020, 3:10 PM
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Letting crooks like himself off the hook for personal reasons, regardless of political affiliations.
Crooks tend to think other crooks like them are innocent.
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All-In [49031]
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Pretty good chance Trump sees trying to sell
Feb 18, 2020, 3:22 PM
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a senate seat to the highest bidder as the kind of initiative he admires.
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Legend [18018]
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same for "bribery, tax fraud, security laws violations"***
Feb 18, 2020, 3:31 PM
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110%er [8982]
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Re: So...Blagojevich, DeBartolo, Milken, and Kerik.
Feb 18, 2020, 2:52 PM
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freeing up bed space at the gray-bar hotel?
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CU Medallion [73569]
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well, to be fair. Criminals usually have a rap sheet
Feb 18, 2020, 3:06 PM
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so any Presidential pardoning and commuting typically has a crime.
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Oculus Spirit [93658]
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All hope of reelection end right here, right now.
Feb 18, 2020, 3:28 PM
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I'm voting for Bernie.
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CU Medallion [56062]
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It's almost as if he could shoot someone on 5th Avenue.....***
Feb 18, 2020, 3:40 PM
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All-TigerNet [11180]
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Typical Trump BS misdirection.
Feb 18, 2020, 4:09 PM
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Hmmm, this Bill Barr stuff is getting kinda serious, what can we do to cause a distraction?
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All-In [48078]
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Re: So...Blagojevich, DeBartolo, Milken, and Kerik.
Feb 18, 2020, 5:02 PM
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Swampy
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110%er [6101]
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Re: So...Blagojevich, DeBartolo, Milken, and Kerik.
Feb 18, 2020, 5:12 PM
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Why just these people? There’s something more to this, it’s too random.
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CU Medallion [60036]
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Re: So...Blagojevich, DeBartolo, Milken, and Kerik.
Feb 18, 2020, 6:03 PM
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Man I don’t take you as a butthurt individual, but you really are butthurt over Trump. You are taking every bit of bait available.
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Heisman Winner [137863]
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I'm not sure how it's bait. He did it. Out in the open.
Feb 18, 2020, 6:44 PM
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What is he baiting me to do? Question it? You should be questioning it, too.
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CU Medallion [60036]
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Re: I'm not sure how it's bait. He did it. Out in the open.
Feb 18, 2020, 7:09 PM
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Nah. Not after Clinton and Obama, Bush. Nope.
Hair on fire is the situation every time clemency is granted.
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CU Medallion [60036]
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Re: I'm not sure how it's bait. He did it. Out in the open.
Feb 18, 2020, 7:13 PM
[ in reply to I'm not sure how it's bait. He did it. Out in the open. ] |
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Make a thread about Tynice Hill or Crystal Munoz who were pardoned. Nope, let’s not do that cause it won’t get clicks and a reaction for 4 pages of responses.
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110%er [6101]
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Re: I'm not sure how it's bait. He did it. Out in the open.
Feb 18, 2020, 7:24 PM
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He let the little fish go, to catch a bigger fish. I’ve said from day one that Obama was neck deep in Chicago’s corruption. There’s no way he wasn’t involved in that senate seat deal.
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Legend [18018]
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You guys seem to love watching Trump be a master baiter***
Feb 18, 2020, 7:51 PM
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All-In [40344]
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as I adjust my tinfoil hat
Feb 19, 2020, 7:45 AM
[ in reply to Re: I'm not sure how it's bait. He did it. Out in the open. ] |
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That is kinda interesting timing that Obama and Trump had a little twitter spat and then your theory of Obama and Chicago corruption.
Is Trump a bumbling idiot or a master at 4D chess? I guess time will tell.
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All-In [46816]
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He's setting up a Stone, Manafort etc pardon.
Feb 19, 2020, 2:55 PM
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He does smaller things to get the dems and media riled up and going on and on about it. The American people have the attention span of a gnat on cocaine so they get tired of hearing it, move on to something else. That's when he does what he intended to do.
He's not stupid.
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110%er [7026]
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I don't get the Blagojevich thing.. This guy's a dirtbag.
Feb 19, 2020, 3:06 PM
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My guess is, that like most dirtbags, he has "dirt" on another dirtbag.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: So...Blagojevich, DeBartolo, Milken, and Kerik.
Feb 19, 2020, 3:09 PM
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All dirtbags like Trump, but just a little better people.
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Replies: 68
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