Tiger Board Logo

Donor's Den General Leaderboards TNET coins™ POTD Hall of Fame Map FAQ
GIVE AN AWARD
Use your TNET coins™ to grant this post a special award!

W
50
Big Brain
90
Love it!
100
Cheers
100
Helpful
100
Made Me Smile
100
Great Idea!
150
Mind Blown
150
Caring
200
Flammable
200
Hear ye, hear ye
200
Bravo
250
Nom Nom Nom
250
Take My Coins
500
Ooo, Shiny!
700
Treasured Post!
1000

YOUR BALANCE
So did anyone learn a lesson this time around about coaching
storage This topic has been archived - replies are not allowed.
Archives - Tiger Boards Archive
add New Topic
Replies: 29
| visibility 1

So did anyone learn a lesson this time around about coaching


Mar 20, 2018, 11:14 AM

decisions? I learned years ago (I'm getting old) that I don't usually know enough to be able to confidently criticize the decisions of AD's, especially if they have demonstrated success in other matters. Before this season, Brad Brownell had performed better than average for a basketball coach at Clemson. So calls to fire a better-than-average coach were not the same thing as calling for Larry Shyatt to be fired.

I saw a lot of people who were so sure that Brownell obviously needed to be fired last year. I saw a lot of people outraged when DRad kept him on. I would not have been outraged either way, and I certainly would rather DRad make the decision instead of me.

What this situation should do is prove a few things. #1, the people calling for Brownell to be fired were all very wrong. This is at least the 4th best season in the history of Clemson basketball. That's an important thing to consider.

#2 it proves that people have a tendency to be overconfident in their ability to know what's best, especially regarding things for which they are not trained, experienced or even well-versed. For example, I may be knowledgeable about a thing or two, but I am relatively ignorant when it comes to basketball. (I'm a Clemson fan) Sure, I care a LOT about Clemson athletics, but that doesn't mean I always know what's best for it.

#3 it proves that some fans should have abstained from aggressively asserting their incorrect opinions. Having an opinion is one thing. But some people don't seem to understand you can have a varying degree of confidence in your opinion. Some people emotionally arrive at an opinion and then immediately turn it up to 11. And many times people attach their own personal pride to that opinion eventually being proven right. Not healthy.

So, will anything change? I believe that those who were the loudest in their calls for Brownell to be fired will consider it sufficient to "eat crow" and admit they were wrong. But what would really be awesome is if they learned from this experience and altered their approach in the future. Maybe don't repeatedly campaign for someone to be fired, because odds are you don't know what you are talking about. THAT is an example of learning from history. Not just saying, "Oh well, I was wrong" and then continuing the same behavior.

Ok, rant over.

badge-donor-10yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: So did anyone learn a lesson this time around about coaching


Mar 20, 2018, 11:17 AM

I stopped reading when hoops

badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Let's pump the brakes a bit


Mar 20, 2018, 11:20 AM

and make sure this is a trend and not an outlier.

2024 orange level memberbadge-donor-15yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"IDIOT POSTER OF THE MONTH SO FAR...GWP-- You have won IPM Award for your failure to completely comprehend a clear post & then choose to attack someone who points out your ignorance. While you are not yet in the same No Class Catagory as deRoberts, ClemTiger117 & Tigerdug23, you are getting closer to the Sewer Dwellers." - coachmac


Re: Let's pump the brakes a bit


Mar 20, 2018, 11:39 AM

Trend or not, I believe the fact is if BB had gotten fired last season, we wouldn't have been playing in the Sweet 16 Friday night. Clemson has about given Brad free reign over the basketball program, and I believe a 3 year contract extension is deserving to see if he has finally turned our BB program around for the long haul. This is one good season, lets see if he can keep it moving forward with further success!!!

2024 orange level memberbadge-donor-15yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


3 games into tourney deserves 3 years.


Mar 20, 2018, 12:13 PM

Nm

2024 orange level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


It's the 4th best season in our history.


Mar 20, 2018, 1:19 PM [ in reply to Let's pump the brakes a bit ]

First time since 1997 we have had a year this good.

Clemson BBall has no positive trends anywhere close to this magnitude. If this became a trend, Brownell would be the best coach in our history, easily. All of our trends are terrible.

badge-donor-10yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

I don't disagree. And furthermore he appears to have


Mar 20, 2018, 1:52 PM

a lot of young talent on the roster as well, so I think he has a great chance of returning to the tournament next year.

My point is, we shouldn't judge a coach by one bad year, and we shouldn't judge a coach by one good year. Hopefully Brad sustains this success. It doesn't need to be making the Sweet 16 every year, but just keep us competitive in the ACC.

2024 orange level memberbadge-donor-15yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"IDIOT POSTER OF THE MONTH SO FAR...GWP-- You have won IPM Award for your failure to completely comprehend a clear post & then choose to attack someone who points out your ignorance. While you are not yet in the same No Class Catagory as deRoberts, ClemTiger117 & Tigerdug23, you are getting closer to the Sewer Dwellers." - coachmac


My post is not Brad Brownell as much as it is about


Mar 20, 2018, 2:08 PM

fans. I would not have been outraged had he been fired. I'm just saying people are way too overconfident that they know what should be done. Despite that, many of those people are very aggressive in asserting those opinions.

badge-donor-10yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: So did anyone learn a lesson this time around about coaching


Mar 20, 2018, 11:24 AM

Your use of common sense and perspective is unsettling, sir.

badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: So did anyone learn a lesson this time around about coaching


Mar 20, 2018, 11:24 AM

One question, if DRAD had fired Brownell at the end of last season, would We/Clemson be playing in the NCAA Sweet 16 this coming Friday night. My answer is H&LL no!!!

2024 orange level memberbadge-donor-15yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


There's really no way to know...


Mar 20, 2018, 11:32 AM

and to suggest anything to the contrary is just mindless speculation.

2024 orange level memberbadge-donor-20yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together.


So you think...


Mar 20, 2018, 11:24 AM

one solid performance every eight years is acceptable.

2024 orange level memberbadge-donor-20yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together.


Re: So you think...


Mar 20, 2018, 11:51 AM

So by your logic a solid performance is solely making the NCAA tournament? Because we've had other years where we were "solid," especially by Clemson basketball standards.

Again, best winning % in the ACC, tied for most tourney wins in Clemson history, etc.

badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Making the NCAA Tournament...


Mar 20, 2018, 12:13 PM

is certainly not the only measure of a successful program but achieving that goal only one time every seven years is totally, completely and entirely unacceptable.

2024 orange level memberbadge-donor-20yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together.


So, you know about Clemson basketball right?


Mar 20, 2018, 1:22 PM

Where do you get your expectations from? Obviously not from anywhere realistic.

badge-donor-10yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: Making the NCAA Tournament...


Mar 20, 2018, 1:59 PM [ in reply to Making the NCAA Tournament... ]

Then I guess we should either:

a) disband the basketball program because we don't have the best track record of making the tournament (much less winning in the tournament)
b) throw the largest money ever seen by a college basketball coach at the top coach in the country and pray he stays
c) fire Brownell and hire another up and comer that will get us to the tourney in 5 or 6 years (which people will complain about) and once he has a program established leaves us for greener pastures, or he doesn't pan out and we start over again, or
d) move on from the "fire Brownell" and forgive him for the atrocities he seems to have committed and hope this success continues, he builds a winning program, and stays in it for the long haul since we stood by him when it wasn't at it's best. I trust you know that he was aware he wasn't doing good for a stretch and that his ultimate goal is to win, it seems some people cannot comprehend that.

He's also went 2 out of 8, which would be 1 of 4, but you conveniently left off the first year he was here.

badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: So you think...


Mar 20, 2018, 12:34 PM [ in reply to So you think... ]

When BB came to Clemson he had nothing to attract good basketball talent but an excellent Dabo Swenney coach FB team, that's it. Were BB and Dabo suppose to team up and recruit basketball players while recruiting FB players. To hold BB totally the blame for having crappy basketball teams his 1st 5 maybe 6 years isn't fair. BB coming in a s HC in the old LJ was a fail from the start. Since the re done LJ, BB has brought in good transfer talent that he wouldn't have gotten before in the combo men's and women's LJ. He was ask to make changes after the new LJ by our AD, he did without question and it has served him well. In other words lets look at it like this. I have a knife sharpening shop without much business. I hear that you are a very sharpener, and I bring you in to help bring in business but, the only tools I have for you to do your job is a pack of finger nail files. Still no more business, do I fire you, or do I bring in up to date sharpening tools so that you can do your job. It was about that same situation when Brad was brought in and ask him to win with the tools that were completely out dated and shameful when showing what you have to top recruits!!! Now that Clemson has untied his hands, lets see what he can do as if he was a new coach coming into what we have to offer a new BB coach and recruits now....

2024 orange level memberbadge-donor-15yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


A couple of things...


Mar 20, 2018, 1:10 PM [ in reply to So you think... ]

1. Sweet 16 and 4th in the ACC once every 8 years is a tremendous upgrade from our normal experience. It's odd how so many Clemson fans seem to not realize that.

2. There is no reason to think that once in 8 years is the norm. Now Brad's had more experience. He's had lots and lots of time to install his program. I expect the next 8 years to be better than the last.


Also, it looks like you missed the point. The people I describe in the OP were clearly wrong despite being extremely confident. That should be a lesson.

badge-donor-10yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

I'm with you on not being upset wether Brownell was fired


Mar 20, 2018, 11:30 AM

last year or not. Thats why I'm not shoving crow down whoever said what.

2024 orange level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


He runs a ~$100mil business? Wow. He raped CBB's buy-out


Mar 20, 2018, 11:39 AM

in exchange for ONE year to make it a total of FOUR on his remaining contract so he had a semblance of one last chance to recruit.

I'm sorry, but even DRad wasn't convinced Brad to be the man for the job, for good #### reasons and his decisions to do the above, galvanized it.




2024 orange level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


That's pretty much always been my assertion.


Mar 20, 2018, 11:47 AM

The vast majority of posters have no idea what the AD even does on a daily basis outside of the occasional hire/fire situation, have essentially zero knowledge of the facts and information that DRad has access to in those situations, and likely have little to no business or legal knowledge that would even be relevant or applicable to the situation. Yet they somehow still feel qualified to criticize his decisions, critique his contract negotiations, etc. Not just question then either - outright denounce them entirely like it's so obvious that he was wrong and they could've done better. Really?

This isn't to say that ADs don't make mistakes because they clearly do, but who are we to make those determinations? Even a failed hire doesn't always have to be a mistake on the ADs part. Probably half the hires in major college athletics could eventually be labeled a failure. Many of those look like solid hires at the time they are made. Were those truly bad hires or just hires that didnt work out (like not all good decisons in poker result in winning a pot)? Theres also the occasional Herm Edwards hire that's just bizarre and seems destined for failure from the start, but those are more the exception than the rule.

I think the only people truly in position to criticize or evaluate an AD are those around them with access to all of the information available to the AD and can actually evaluate the process, not just the results.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: So did anyone learn a lesson this time around about coaching


Mar 20, 2018, 12:20 PM

You're being simplistic to say that he has been an above average basketball coach. He has certainly been significantly above average as measured by ACC wins and finishes. However, the ACC is significantly different than even under Purnell. While the upper 2/3 of the ACC may be as competitive as ever - Shyatt, Barnes, Ellis et. al. never had the opportunity to consistently play sub-100 RPI teams playing under the ACC banner. And he has had no success in the ACC tourney which makes him equal to his predecessors - not above average.

This dilution of ACC credibility is nowhere more evident than in Brownell's inability to consistently make the postseason. In prior eras virtually any ACC team with a winning record would be a shoe-in for the NIT tournament. Brownell managed this 3 times. In 8 seasons he has received 2 NIT bids and 2 NCAA bids. Since Tates Locke, only Larry Shyatt has had a worse performance as measured by reaching postseason tournaments. Ellis made the postseason 7/10 seasons, Barnes 4/4, Purnell 6/7. Brownell's 4/8 is significanly below this average.

Further caveats - One of Brownell's NCAA bids was under the 68 team expansion - something no other Clemson coach had the benefit of. Tates Locke 1975 team that made the NIT was the 3rd team picked from the ACC that season, including the NCAA tournament. That was the first year that at-large bids were offered to the NCAA tournament and a conference could only have 2. Being picked 3rd out of the ACC for any postseason is only bested by 1987 Ellis team. The 1997 Barnes team was selected 4th. Comparing anything before Locke is meaningless since they play entirely in the auto-bid only era.

So, I dispute entirely your opening assertion and everything that flows from it is predicated on the mistaken notion.

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Jstone D329 - “ It’s ok to want a coaching change”
Brownell @Clemson: 8 seasons ranked 50th or worse by Sports Reference’s SRS
1-29: Brad Brownell road record against ranked ACC opponents
142, 161, 294, 307, 293, 166, 225, 180, 260, 164, 141, 72, 68 - assist rankings amongst all D1 programs during Brownell's tenure


Re: So did anyone learn a lesson this time around about coaching


Mar 20, 2018, 12:36 PM

Ellis was 8/10 - forgot that 1990 had been vacated.

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Jstone D329 - “ It’s ok to want a coaching change”
Brownell @Clemson: 8 seasons ranked 50th or worse by Sports Reference’s SRS
1-29: Brad Brownell road record against ranked ACC opponents
142, 161, 294, 307, 293, 166, 225, 180, 260, 164, 141, 72, 68 - assist rankings amongst all D1 programs during Brownell's tenure


Re: So did anyone learn a lesson this time around about coaching


Mar 20, 2018, 2:16 PM [ in reply to Re: So did anyone learn a lesson this time around about coaching ]

You would be correct, except for the fact that even ACC teams without winning conference records were going to the NIT.

For example, Barnes first season we went to the NIT with a 5-11 conference record and two of his three NCAA appearances we went with a 7-9 record.

Larry Shyatt's first year we went 5-11 in conference and again went to the NIT.

Cliff Ellis: 3-11, 5-9, 4-10, 5-11 (x2), and 6-10 all received NIT berths.

Brownell: 8-10, 10-8, 8-8 all did not receive NIT bids. That's right, a 10-8 conference record did not make the post-season in the ACC.

This is our 3rd Sweet 16 appearance (4th if you count the vacated one) in our history and you're going to state he's not a good coach even though he's done something only 3 other coaches in our history have? Because he didn't coach in a time where you could struggle and lose a lot in conference and still get invited to the post season?

As far as ACC tourney success, what exactly are you basing your statement on? Finals appearances? Wins? Fewest one and dones in the tourney? Because he's done fairly well vs his predecessors in that area as well.

badge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: So did anyone learn a lesson this time around about coaching


Mar 20, 2018, 2:21 PM

lol you are wasting your time on that one.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

March 4th 2016- "Lee won't be here 4 years from today" - Viztiz


Re: So did anyone learn a lesson this time around about coaching


Mar 20, 2018, 12:20 PM

Love your post, but not a chance. You see, all these internet experts never go away.

I find it quite amusing that most of the critics are just that....internet expects. Most don’t even go to the games....how else would they be posting over and over again during the game? They are ready to fire somebody when the other team gets any lead.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

I totally understand where you are coming from.


Mar 20, 2018, 1:00 PM

In fact, I can't really disagree, except to say that the voicing of opinions, right or wrong, even aggressively, will not, and should not cease.

I would prefer to see nothing but reasonable and well thought out posts, but you have to take the bad with the good. Besides, disagreement and differing opinions are in part what drives this board. Anyway, every post is subject to being land-blasted if it is too wacky, and that is often entertaining.

As for Brownell being fired at the end of last season, I was very strongly and vocally in favor of it. At that time, I maintain it was a very reasonable, level headed position for a fan to take, even though, as it turns out, it would have been a horrible mistake. I was very wrong, and I have no problem whatsoever admitting it and no personal pride tied up in it, and I have no regrets whatsoever. This forum is for the everyday fan, who is often uninformed and of course unqualified to make decisions such as hiring and firing coaches; such opinions should not be restricted only to the very few people on earth (the coaches directly involved) who are truly qualified.

Still, as I said, I understand where you are coming from. Some opinions are so uninformed, so obviously invalid, that it becomes a matter of degrees, in my opinion. With Brownell, there was an extensive body of evidence, over a considerable time, upon which to base an opinion. One isn't pretending to have the same expertise as an AD, but that's not always necessary in order to have a valid and correct opinion. On the other hand, we had fans clamoring for Hunter Johnson to start at QB last year, and I would submit that those folks do not have enough evidence or knowledge, especially when compared to Dabo Swinney, to form a valid opinion in that case.

I was wrong about Brownell; but that's okay, it doesn't bother me. In fact, I'm glad I was wrong. I knew I could be wrong going in, so I'm not sure what there was to be learned. Once the decision was made to keep Brownell, I voiced my displeasure, then accepted it, and got behind both coach and team.

2024 purple level memberbadge-donor-15yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


When people "know they may be wrong" they need


Mar 20, 2018, 1:15 PM

to make sure that is reflected in their words. Otherwise, they are communicating that they are sure they are right.

The problem is people go on these dogmatic campaigns to have a certain decision made, and they are 100% committed to it, and they contribute to a mob-like drumbeat. That stresses people out and poisons college athletics. If people would communicate in a way that reflected their actual level of understanding of a particular topic, then this place would suck less. I like saying things that may contribute to this place sucking less.

Most people who do this, I believe, are not capable of reigning in this type of unsavory behavior, but some are, and those are the ones I want to see this.

badge-donor-10yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

I'm with ya!***


Mar 20, 2018, 2:35 PM



2024 purple level memberbadge-donor-15yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


Re: So did anyone learn a lesson this time around about coaching


Mar 20, 2018, 1:59 PM

When we look at Clemson's past re basketball, we don't have a history that would create fear in our opponents, We tend to cite a coach's success or failures on his won/loss record. Granted, that is the bottom line, but it's not the full picture. Other teams experience ups and downs just as we do and some of our opponents may have had down years during those years of our best records. Even the better teams experience upsets inflicted by teams with lesser talent and a "no-name" coach, something that has occurred quite frequently during the current Big Dance.

Over the years Clemson has had numerous basketball coaches and firing and hiring has not produced a world beater as of today. Yet, we have expected instant success with each new hire. When we experience an upset, we waste no time in blaming everyone and everything. No coach is perfect, nor any of the players, perfection appears to be the sole property of we fans and we appear to have all of the answers.

If there is one thing I've learned over the years, if I were to go to someone in authority to voice a complaint, I darn sure better have researched the facts to support my opinion.

badge-ringofhonor-joe21.jpgmilitary_donation.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


Replies: 29
| visibility 1
Archives - Tiger Boards Archive
add New Topic