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All-In [40929]
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Zimmermans head 3 minutes after shooting
Apr 20, 2012, 5:29 PM
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pic taken 3 min after shooting verified with iphone gps
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Lot o points [180994]
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pwned***
Apr 20, 2012, 5:30 PM
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All-In [27403]
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obviously self-inflicted***
Apr 20, 2012, 5:31 PM
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110%er [7980]
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signed Tigerboy***
Apr 23, 2012, 1:13 PM
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Rock Defender [53]
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he got his butt kicked***
Apr 20, 2012, 5:42 PM
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110%er [9107]
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Well...
Apr 20, 2012, 5:43 PM
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the other dude's dead.
Just sayin'.
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All-In [30483]
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Don't ever take Skittles to a gun fight***
Apr 20, 2012, 5:52 PM
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Lot o points [180994]
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Don't ever take a gun to a Skittles party.***
Apr 20, 2012, 6:41 PM
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Rock Defender [53]
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I'm still trying to figure out when getting your ### whipped
Apr 20, 2012, 6:22 PM
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became a legitimate excuse to kill somebody.
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CU Medallion [58411]
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Since the beginning of time.
Apr 20, 2012, 6:31 PM
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If someone attacks you and is on top of you bashing your head into the ground, you have every right to use deadly force to defend yourself.
I don't know the technicalities of the law, but I don't think anybody should be expected or obligated to suffer bodily injury at the hands of an attacker when they could prevent it with deadly force.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Really?
Apr 20, 2012, 6:38 PM
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So every playground fight at every middle school, the losing party can go home and get their dad's gun and kill the kid who whipped them? Physical altercations happen all the time, I seriously doubt they get used in courtrooms as defenses for murder very often.
Also, don't exaggerate what we don't know about their fight. Someone who gets their face bashed into concrete looks a little worse than having a couple <1cm lacerations.
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CU Medallion [58411]
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Of course not.
Apr 20, 2012, 6:46 PM
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But this wasn't a scuffle between kids on a playground. And Zimmerman didn't leave after getting his a$$ whipped, then return to kill Travon.
This was an assault, in the dark, by a complete stranger. It would have been very reasonable for the person being attacked to fear that the attacker may kill them or cause serious injury. What was he supposed to do, wait and see how badly Travon injured him, or wait to be killed before reflecting and making a well thought out decision?
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Legend [18023]
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what if martin was the one defending himself?
Apr 20, 2012, 7:54 PM
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What if Zimmerman ran after Martin and Martin defended himself against Zimmerman?
We don't know the specifics other than Zimmerman got some cuts on his head and shot Martin.
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CU Medallion [58411]
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I agree completely. I was just responding to the specific
Apr 20, 2012, 8:01 PM
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question posed above, within the context of the thread and all of it's implied assumptions, based on what we do know. We certainly don't know all the facts yet.
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Legend [18023]
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Fair enough. And I agree.***
Apr 20, 2012, 8:14 PM
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Rock Defender [53]
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Except Zimmerman was the instigator here. He willfully made
Apr 20, 2012, 8:06 PM
[ in reply to Since the beginning of time. ] |
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contact with a private citizen, with whom he had no business, and then was surprised when the person he was harassing defended himself.
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Rock Defender [53]
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exactamundo***
Apr 20, 2012, 8:17 PM
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CU Medallion [58411]
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Again, we're making assumptions here, but making contact
Apr 20, 2012, 8:37 PM
[ in reply to Except Zimmerman was the instigator here. He willfully made ] |
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with a private citizen does not justify a beating. If Zimmerman's account is accurate, at some point he stopped following Travon when he lost contact with him; Travon then reappeared, surprising Zimmerman then proceeded to attack him. If this is the case (and we have no indication it's not), even if Zimmerman was out of line for following Travon (still undetermined), it still does not give Travon the right to then, after losing contact with Zimmerman, reappear and attack him; that makes Travon guilty of a crime, and far from innocent. Travon should have left well enough alone when he had the chance if he was really afraid.
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Legend [18023]
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and why should we believe him?
Apr 21, 2012, 12:05 AM
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If Martin's GF is still sticking with the story that Martin was afraid and she told him to run away and then heard scuffling, it would be reasonable to believe that Zimmerman was following Martin and Martin felt threatened. He may have made the foolish decision to "stand his ground" so to speak, not realizing Zimmerman had a gun.
Zimmerman shouldn't have made the decision he did as it led to the death of a young kid. But what happened after Zimmerman profiled Martin we don't really know. Maybe we will find out, but right now I don't think Zimmerman will be convicted.
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Legend [18334]
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He was passing out neighborhood watch flyers and cookies***
Apr 21, 2012, 1:11 AM
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Hall of Famer [24764]
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You need to give up those mind-altering drugs, dude. When
Apr 21, 2012, 12:54 PM
[ in reply to Again, we're making assumptions here, but making contact ] |
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a pervert-looking guy is following me around in his car at night for no reason whatsoever and then corners and confronts me, I'm going to try to get away the best way possible. Zimmerman was the aggressor and has NO right to a claim of self-defense. Stalking with a firearm after being told to back off.
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CU Medallion [58411]
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"When a pervert-looking guy is following me around in his
Apr 21, 2012, 1:56 PM
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car at night for no reason whatsoever and then corners and confronts me, I'm gonna try to get away the best way possible."
Me too. That's what anybody should do.
"Zimmerman was the aggressor and has NO right to a claim of self-defense."
According to Zimmerman, Travon did get away, only to return, confront Zimmerman, then attack him. That makes Travon the agressor if it went down that way, and it certainly is self-defense, and Zimmerman had every right to kill Travon.
"Stalking with a firearm after being told to back off."
I don't know how Florida law defines stalking, but I doubt that it will apply in this case. Zimmerman had a concealed weapons permit I believe, so was not in violation of any law there. It does sound like Zimmerman continued to pursue Travon after the operator instructed him to back-off, which may or may not have been illegal, even though it was probably a bad decision to do so. If however, Zimmerman is telling the truth, and Travon reappeared after getting away then confronted Zimmerman and attacked him, it doesn't matter if Zimmerman failed to back off earlier.
This all comes down to whether or not the evidence and circumstances will support Zimmerman's account. None of us knows what evidence will be presented; I would assume that we don't know everything yet and that some things will be presented that we haven't heard, perhaps in a way that may influence what we believe about this case and Zimmerman's guilt or innocence.
It appears however, that many people have preconceived notions, prejudices, and agendas that cloud their thinking and cause them to jump to all sorts of shaky conclusions. I'm not assuming that Zimmerman is telling the truth, or that he is lying; I don't know if he is guilty or innocent, or of exactly what. I'll have to wait for more evidence before I can draw any kind of conclusions. I do know that this has been framed from the start in a very one-sided way, and many people apparently can think or reason well enough to see it.
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110%er [5330]
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Hold the eff up a minute.....We've reached a point in
Apr 21, 2012, 8:56 PM
[ in reply to Except Zimmerman was the instigator here. He willfully made ] |
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society where it is UNACCEPTABLE to make verbal contact with someone to see if they belong but it is ACCEPTABLE to whip someones ### because they ask you a question? Have I got that right?
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Hall of Famer [24764]
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Heisman Winner [111575]
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Re: Zimmermans head 3 minutes after shooting
Apr 20, 2012, 7:23 PM
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Thats is the back of a person's head, and it is bloody. No time frame has been setblsihed Sanford Police already confirmed they did not take that photo.
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Heisman Winner [111575]
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Re: Zimmermans head 3 minutes after shooting
Apr 20, 2012, 7:26 PM
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BTW, my knee looked looked a lot like that when I fell off a golf cart last summer. I got back on, and went and much late to got home that night and put some peroxide on it and to the best of my knowledge, my life was never in danger.
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All-In [40929]
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it was taken by a witness using his iphone
Apr 20, 2012, 7:44 PM
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the iphone logged the location and time of the picture and it was taken 3 minutes after the gun shot at the same location.
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Heisman Winner [111575]
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Re: it was taken by a witness using his iphone
Apr 20, 2012, 8:17 PM
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well here is why that is a problem, If a bystander at the crime scene took that photo, it is not admissible and not considered a part of the police report.
And had his injuries been considered life threatening, or even been there any suspicion that he suffered a concussion or serious injury, emergency workers called to the scene would have been obligated by state law to immediately admit him into a hospital prior to questioning. This did not happen
Anyone outside of a law enforcement officer can not be held to testify as to when the photo was taken, or if it is in fact blood on his scalp. I am not refuting that it is not in fact blood, just that a bystander photo can not be admitted into evidence.
And even though I agree that looks like Zimmerman's head and wearing the same the same red jacket taken into custody with that night, I will say that is superficial and, although it is evidence that a scuffle occurred, itdoes not refute or verify who started the scuffle.
GZ also incriminated himself in court today by stating he had no idea how old Martin was, stating on the record in court today, "I thought he was only slightly younger than me and was not sure if he was armed, is direct conflict with his original statement to the 911 operator, on record, that he looks like a teenager.
This is one of many inconsistencies on record in his statements that have caused state prosecutors to look further into the case.
And at the end of the day, an adult fatally shot an unarmed minor that was completely within his right to be walking thought that neighborhood.
If he denied by judge to have this dismissed on the stand your gounf law, he will have to go to trial and will be held accountable to several conflicting statements eh has made on record, in both official polices statements, and his testimony today.
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CU Medallion [58411]
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"And at the end of the day, an adult fatally shot an unarmed
Apr 20, 2012, 8:59 PM
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minor that was completely within his right to be walking thought that neighborhood".
That is exactly what is wrong with this whole thing - that so many (I'm assuming you are serious and not trolling) really think that such an overly simplistic statement sums it all up, and that the argument is being framed in such an absurd way.
Just because this statement is undeniably true, it doesn't mean that it gives a complete, or even a concise picture of what may have really happened.
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Heisman Winner [111575]
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Re: "And at the end of the day, an adult fatally shot an unarmed
Apr 20, 2012, 9:57 PM
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It does actually. it will likely be manslaughter in the end. Zimmerman would have to prove that he was the one screaming help in the 911 call, and little I saw today suggests his defense can prove that. The Burden is on him to get it thrown out on a Stand your ground defense. I do not see a judge throwing this out based on that.
i also seems the prosecutes have more aces in their sleeves while the defense has a "flawed" local police investigation hampering the their defense claim.
politics will come into play and exposing potential police corruption under intense media scrutiny will play a part in that decision. This will go to jury.
I not think there is enough witness testimony to pin a murder charge, but Manslaughter will be the likely outcome should this go to trial and expert forensic testimony can rule out Zimmerman screaming for help on the 911 call.
You do you do not have to prove who started the scrap, a minor is dead and the regardless of who you define as the aggressor, Zimmerman's state of mind has been clearly documented in the 911 call depicts an irrational bias that led to the shooting, coupled with expert testimony, despite an actual eye-witness, will prove that it was not George Zimmerman pleading for his life on the 911 call.
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CU Medallion [58411]
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You've got a lot of strong, biased opinions and make a lot
Apr 20, 2012, 10:31 PM
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of assumptions, but you actually know much less.
Your blanket statement totally discounts any defense by Zimmerman; thankfully our system allows that for the accused.
Right now, as you stated, we know that an unarmed teenager was shot and killed by Zimmerman. Regardless of what you say, we don't know how that came to pass, and it very well could have been justifiable. That's why we have a trial.
If it turns out that Zimmerman chased Travon down and murdered him, then Zimmerman should be punished. If he shot Travon in self-defense, he should go free. We have no way of knowing which it is yet, and if sufficient evidence is not presented in the trial (burden of proof on the prosecution), we may never know.
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CU Medallion [53773]
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Is he saying Zimmerman has to prove his innocence? I was
Apr 21, 2012, 7:41 AM
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thinking it was the other way around.
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Heisman Winner [111575]
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Re: Is he saying Zimmerman has to prove his innocence? I was
Apr 21, 2012, 9:45 AM
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Yes, innocent until proven guilty. Just keep in mind he has already admitted to shooting the kid, we all know this as fact
Where the burden of proof lies is convincing a judge or jury that he was in fear of his life and lethal force was valid, otherwise this is a clear cut case of manslaughter.
Had it not been for intense media scrutiny, he never would have been charged to begin with.
I will also say that the PR firm his father hired, acting under the guise of a defense team prior to hiring his current trial lawyer, who is very good BTW, dropped the ball big time by deflecting attention form the death of a teen and instead battled intent in the media when they would have been best served to say nothing. If he were to have been allowed toutter any statement through the media, it should not have been arguing the extent of his injuries, nor his families 2nd hand take on the matter, yet first and foremost, a heart felt apology to the family for fatally shooting their son.
Personally, and this is my opinion, the gravity of this did not kick in until he had to spend a week in county lock-up and appear before a judge. I bet he is pretty sorry now, but for what is under under debate.
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All-In [34823]
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Zimmerman hasn't been charged with manslaughter.
Apr 22, 2012, 9:51 AM
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He has been charged with 2nd degree murder.
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CU Medallion [53773]
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Hall of Famer [24764]
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Precisely the problem.***
Apr 24, 2012, 9:59 PM
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CU Medallion [53773]
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CU Medallion [58411]
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Also, the fact that Zimmerman's injuries were not "life
Apr 20, 2012, 9:09 PM
[ in reply to Re: it was taken by a witness using his iphone ] |
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threatening" in no way means that his life was not in danger, or that he was unreasonable to assume that it was.
And boy, talk about a smoking gun, Zimmerman really told a whopper about Travon's age! Zimmerman originally told police, while trailing him and before he had gotten a good look at him, that he thought Travon was a teenager. Then, while recollecting some time after a very traumatic event, after he has fought with and killed Travon, he tells them he thought Travon was slightly younger than him. Wow, what a big fat liar! He must be guilty after telling such a tale!
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All-American [577]
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Re: it was taken by a witness using his iphone
Apr 22, 2012, 9:38 AM
[ in reply to Re: it was taken by a witness using his iphone ] |
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TB that is where you are wrong. I have seen many times where pics taken by bystanders are pulled in and used as evidence on both sides of criminal cases. Also if GZ refused care it is against the law for an EMT togive care to that person. If he is able to answer simple questions to verify mental status it would be assault for me to put my hands on him after he refused care.
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CU Medallion [58411]
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Here's where your logic breaks down . . .
Apr 20, 2012, 7:53 PM
[ in reply to Re: Zimmermans head 3 minutes after shooting ] |
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Your life probably wasn't in danger when you fell off of your golf cart. On the other hand, if you had gashed your knee while being attacked and knocked down by a complete stranger in the dark, then your life very well may have been in danger.
Nobody has every suggested that the cuts to Zimmerman's head were life threatening as far as I know. It was being attacked (allegedly) that would have been life threatening.
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Legend [18334]
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Here's a simple breakdown
Apr 21, 2012, 12:57 AM
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In Florida you can start a confrontation and when
the confronted doesn't like it (or you) then you
can shoot him dead.
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CU Medallion [58411]
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An equally simple breakdown, based on equally unfounded and
Apr 21, 2012, 12:23 PM
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unproven assumptions:
In Florida, you can't use deadly force to defend yourself against an attacker when your life is in danger.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Heisman Winner [111575]
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Re: You shoulda shot the cart.***
Apr 20, 2012, 8:20 PM
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I kicked the tires and went office space on the chassis, but no charges were filed,
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All-TigerNet [10157]
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Re: Zimmermans head 3 minutes after shooting
Apr 21, 2012, 8:41 AM
[ in reply to Re: Zimmermans head 3 minutes after shooting ] |
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I don't work in ER, but I bet they see more deaths from head trauma, especially where head slams to concrete are involved compared to falling off a golf cart and dinging your knee. Had you landed on your head you probably would have considered getting medical attention.
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Legend [18334]
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Trayvon was standing HIS ground.
Apr 20, 2012, 9:02 PM
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but he lost cause he didn't have a gun.
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CU Medallion [58411]
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That could be the case. It could be that Zimmerman
Apr 20, 2012, 9:19 PM
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chased Travon down, who fearfully struggled for his life after being caught, only to be gunned down in cold blood by a racist wannabe cop.
Or, it could be that Zimmerman, though perhaps a bit overzealous in his duties as a neighborhood watchman, was attempting to do a good deed, and killed Travon in self defense after being needlessly attacked.
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Legend [18334]
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There is nothing anywhere that suggests Trayvon would've
Apr 21, 2012, 12:58 AM
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gone after Zim unprovoked, is there?
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Heisman Winner [111575]
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Re: There is nothing anywhere that suggests Trayvon would've
Apr 21, 2012, 9:57 AM
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Only Zimmerman's word that he had decided to walk back to the his car prior to travon attacking him from behind. But we also found out yesterday that in the origianl police report, that Zimmerman stated that Travon circled his car before running off. He was on the Phone with the 911 operator at that time and this was never mentioned, taking further credibility away from his sworm police statements.
There are 3 witnesses per the investigator's testimony in court yesterday, that can testify that there was considerable argument between the two prior to hearing any evidence of a struggle, And that an "Authoritative Voice" was heard yelling, and no account of a second voice responding.
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Oculus Spirit [83116]
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CU Medallion [58411]
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Could be Joe, could be. I think there is a pretty fine line
Apr 21, 2012, 2:05 PM
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between doing the right thing while protecting your neighborhood and acting without proper authority or harassment; and I think it depends on the situation. My gut tells me that Zimmerman may have crossed that line, but if his account is accurate, then he was still justified in shooting Travon. Stupid maybe, poor judgement maybe; bad intentions or even reckless disregard, I don't see it.
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Hall of Famer [22314]
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you know, my wife reminded me of something the other
Apr 21, 2012, 7:25 PM
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day when we were discussing this Zimmerman case. Regarding him trailing Trayvon in his car, as the kid was walking down the street, she said - "Remember, that's one of the reasons I got my CWP in the first place... I got scared when I thought that truck was following me."
I'd completely forgotten about the incident. My wife walks in the neighborhood every night. Usually pretty late, around 10pm. A couple of years ago, she got scared because she thought someone was following her. A pickup truck was going slowly behind her, staying about 50 feet back... stopping and then pulling up a bit further. This went on for a while until she freaked out and ran up to a house where some people were out on the front porch.
Come to find out, there was no danger. There's a couple of old guys in a pickup truck who cruise through the neighborhoods the night before trash pickup. They take almost anything that people have set down on the road... broken appliances, bicycles, furniture, etc. I guess they repair this stuff and sell it at flea markets or something, I don't know.
But she was certainly relieved when she could see who it was. They were going slow and stopping frequently because they were checking out what was on the road, to see if anything was worth throwing in the truck. It was just a coincidence that she was walking in front of them. And we had a big laugh about it when she got home... she thought she was about to be kidnapped or raped or robbed... and it was just those two old guys we've seen a million times.
However - this also made her aware of just how vulnerable she was, out walking by herself at night. She was totally freaked out until she could clearly see who it was. This incident (plus some others, like people slowing down as they went by, kids yelling at her, etc) convinced her that she needed to have some protection. So she got her CWP and now has a 380 automatic with her every night.
Point being... it's Zimmerman's behavior that is suspicious and creates fear and uncertainty. Not the person walking down the street.
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Rock Defender [53]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
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I can't count how many times I've had my ### handed to me
Apr 22, 2012, 9:15 PM
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over the years. I've even been knocked out a few times.
The point?
I never shot anyone over it.
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CU Medallion [58411]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46322
Joined: 4/23/00
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Congratulations, but I'm not sure what your point is or what
Apr 23, 2012, 12:45 PM
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it has to do with this case. If a complete stranger attacks you in the dark, and is on top of you beating you, you are not obligated to take it because it's just a good old-fashioned a$$ whipping. You don't know what the attacker's intentions are, if he intends merely to whip your a$$ or if he intends to finish the job, and you would have every right to use deadly force to defend yourself.
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Rock Defender [53]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
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how about if I've been following him around in my car?
Apr 23, 2012, 3:54 PM
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Is it ok for me to kill him then?
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CU Medallion [58411]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46322
Joined: 4/23/00
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Even if you are following him, he does not have the right
Apr 23, 2012, 6:31 PM
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to assault you when he has the chance to easily escape.
"Look, that dude's following me - I'm gonna whip his a$$."
You can't do that, if that's what you're asking. Unless you're a thug or a redneck moron. People like that end up dead, in jail, or in a roadside ditch, as they should.
"That dude is following me - I'm trapped in a corner and can't get away - I'm gonna have to fight for my life."
You can, and should do that.
"That dude was following me, but I got away. Now I'm gonna surprise him and teach him a lesson."
That's the way Zimmerman says it went down, as far as I can tell, and no, you certainly can't do that.
If you have first hand knowledge of exactly how it went down, then I'm sure a certain prosecutor would like to hear from you.
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