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Trainer [33]
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Simple supposition...
Sep 7, 2014, 7:42 AM
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Knowing that college players are rewarded by opportunity first and scholarship second and cannot be traded or transferred during the season let's suppose:
1) You are a talented senior quarterback at a major college football program who has patiently waited your turn behind one of the school's top QB's based on the idea that you would have your opportunity to shine. By all accounts you have done and continue to perform at a high level and do everything the coach's ask of you... Until a freshmen hits campus with a lot of talent, a load of hype, and some playing time promised to him. No matter what you do you are not the shiny new toy and a vocal minority of the fan base wants to ###### everything you have worked for away from you. If the coaches cave and withdraw there support how do you respond? You've already received your scholarship (which you may not have needed anyway) and you've given the program everything else you can so how do you respond? Are you ready to be cast aside as an afterthought and career backup?
2)You are a player on a team who has a starting QB that is performing at a high level and a backup with a lot of poise and potential. You chose your school over many other's because of the opportunity to play for what you believe is great program and a high character coaching staff... One day the coaches bench the starter who has played very well and been nothing but an exemplary teammate because they feel the freshmen is as good. You suddenly realize that their is no room for loyalty and no reward for sweat equity, commitment, or sacrifice. It appears it's all about winning now with little regard for the future of the individual player... How do you feel about that? What do you tell future recruits when they consider your school?
3) You are a head coach at a program with a 4 QBs on your team... One is a talented veterans who has done everything you asked of him and is performing at a high clip. The second is a talented freshman who looks like he could become one of the best QBs in school history. The other two are never expected to see significant playing time... The freshman has a ton of potential and some physical tools that may be a little above those of the senior. Do you through your starter under the bus and effectively end his career? Are you prepared to play the remainder of the season with the freshman once the senior sees that his effort, sacrifice, and commitment haven't earned him anything? Do you feel you can maintain the same image and spirit once you explain to your team that no matter what they do to try and deserve a chance they may be supplanted by potential and hype? Are you ready to risk playing the remainder of this season with a freshman started and a backup that no longer cares? What if your freshman superstar is injured? What does that do to your season? What does it do to next season?
I don't know if this is what the coaches are thinking but I know it is what I wonder about when I here people saying cast the starter aside to for the rookie.
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All-TigerNet [13880]
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Really?
Sep 7, 2014, 7:57 AM
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I thought coaches always told their players that starting jobs would go to the best players. These kids know they are one more talented player away from losing their starting job regardless if they are a senior and the other is a freshman. Isn't that part of the recruiting pitch coaches make telling recruits to come play for us, that we need them and it will be an open competition for the starting job? This isn't a freaking union where seniority takes precedence over performance.
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Trainer [33]
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Re: Really?
Sep 7, 2014, 8:09 AM
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Believe what you want but I think that human nature would still be to believe that if you commit to any organization you would be disappointed to find that organization does not value your sacrifice... I'm sure most of us have been involved with some effort that probably wouldn't fail without our individual concern. The problem could come if the masses realize that individual sacrifices aren't valued because at that point neither side needs loyalty or commitment... How many players do you think come to Clemson who believe the coaches don't care about them personally or don't want what is best for them as a person? How many parents recommend would recommend that?
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All-TigerNet [13360]
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Re: Really?
Sep 7, 2014, 8:19 AM
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It's not about caring for people. I think we have a family at Clemson where everyone is cared about.
The only other thing I can say is some people are better football players than others, no matter how much time and and effort you dedicate to your craft. I will point at Clowney for example. By all accounts he was possibly the least dedicated person on his team, yet still started and still became the #1 draft pick. I know it tugs at your heart telling someone that they aren't the best player, but that's all it is.
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Trainer [33]
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Re: Really?
Sep 7, 2014, 8:44 AM
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All obvious considerations but it's not just about who is the best player... It's about 'team'. Saying put the best player on the field is a little cliche'. In reality it's about managing the best interest of the team as an organization and unit. I'm not saying that benching Stoudt for Watson might not be the best thing. What I am saying is the considerations go much deeper that the idea that Watson runs faster or throws further.
Let's say you work for a company that builds widgets. The guy that runs the supply conveyor for all widgets has been with the company for years as an apprentice until last year when the old operator retired. This guy is loyal, likable, and by all accounts and exemplary employee. The boss has given him awards and accolades for being the epitome of the kind of employee the widget factory needs. He's been a loyal employee and now that it's his turn all indications are that the line is going to run as good or better than ever. One day you look over and the guy is hanging his head with a dark cloud over him. You're not just coworkers, you sweated together and lived together for years and he's your friend so you ask him what's wrong and he says he's been laid off. You ask why and he shows you a letter that says "Thanks for your service and exemplary performance but your service is not needed at this time... Please don't be concerned because the company is doing fine and this is not a reflection of any disappointment of shortcoming on your behalf. It's just that we've found someone we believe can lift 75 lbs and your can only lift 70lbs. Currently the position only requires you to lift 60lbs but we see the potential that one day we may want to lit 71 so we have made the decision to hire the new guy and there is only need for one. Thanks for all your effort. PS... We are unable to allow you to keep your retirement package and you are not allowed to take a similar job at another plant because we don't like competition. Best of luck with whatever you decide to do next."... Can you watch that guy pack his belongings and leave without feeling something negative about your employer?...
As fans we want to think that football is all about winning but in reality these guys are still humans. The coaches do preach that commitment, effort, and hard work will be rewarded. You love your teammate even if he is not perfect and the group works together to take on all comers... I love college football but don't care about pro football. I like to think that college still has some allegiance and team spirit and is not as much about paid to play. It's loosing that quickly though.
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All-TigerNet [14090]
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This isn't tee ball, this is big time college football***
Sep 7, 2014, 9:28 AM
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nm
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Trainer [33]
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Re: This isn't tee ball, this is big time college football***
Sep 7, 2014, 9:33 AM
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You seem to assume that this is a good thing... Personally I think that your position is one of the sadder parts of the deal. I have no problem with seeing athletics as a developer of character and realizing that sometimes that includes defeats. I do have a problem with the idea that win at all costs is acceptable,
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Scout Team [182]
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Re: This isn't tee ball, this is big time college football***
Sep 7, 2014, 9:56 AM
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I don't believe your detractors are arguing to win at ALL costs. They.just recognize that there are "costs" that come with competition. Most recognize these going into the competitive arena.
That's why there is a distinction between "competitive" sports and "participation" sports. I have enjoyed both in my life because I knew the deal going in.
I assume you are an Obama supporter?
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Orange Blooded [3908]
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Yes, politics has everything to do w/ this conversation.
Sep 7, 2014, 10:04 AM
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Stupid analogy.
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Scout Team [182]
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Re: Yes, politics has everything to do w/ this conversation.
Sep 7, 2014, 10:09 AM
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There does appear be be some correlation. Just pointing out the obvious. Self-evident.
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Trainer [33]
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Re: This isn't tee ball, this is big time college football***
Sep 7, 2014, 10:11 AM
[ in reply to Re: This isn't tee ball, this is big time college football*** ] |
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I voted for Obama the first term because I didn't see that there was all that much to lose and I wanted to allow those that were emotionally invested the opportunity to break thru a particular barrier. I did not vote for his second term because at my core I'm somewhat conservative and I felt I was better represented by his opposition.
I don't mean to say that their aren't shades of gray where this is concerned and apologize if my comments seem to paint others in a light that is not representative of their positions... I just don't buy that Cole has done anything to undermine his position as starter or that college athletics is better devoid of value for proven team allegiance. At the end of the day I will shed no tears if Stoudt falls apart and is replaced other than those of compassion. I just think we would all be better served/represented as supporting him because he deserves it and let the coaches make the decisions on what is best for the team without trying to make this out to be a controversy.
I am not satisfied to let the complainers have the platform without representation of a counter point of view. I woke up this morning and the internet chatter makes it seem as Stoudt has little fan support and I'm doing my part to prove that is not true.
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Scout Team [182]
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Re: This isn't tee ball, this is big time college football***
Sep 7, 2014, 10:18 AM
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Fair point. It is important to have all legitimate views presented for a good debate. I commend you for your time to present your point of view. I believe this country would be better off if legitimate debates would be held with civility.
I too voted for Obama the first time, but did not vote for him the second. I am an independent but lean towards a conservative point of view.
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All-TigerNet [13360]
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Re: This isn't tee ball, this is big time college football***
Sep 7, 2014, 10:19 AM
[ in reply to Re: This isn't tee ball, this is big time college football*** ] |
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Agree. I didn't vote for Obama...ever, but the OP is implying that if you love your country but don't like the president, you should just shut your mouth.
I think it's tough for some to see that you can love your Tigers and still think we could do better.
For the record, I'm not saying I think DW should start, I just think a lot of these "pro-Cole" arguments are unfounded.
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Trainer [33]
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Re: This isn't tee ball, this is big time college football***
Sep 7, 2014, 10:48 AM
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What opinion here do you find to be 'founded'... At the end of the day I can find nothing wrong with what I have seen from Watson but that doesn't mean I need to find flaws in Stoudt. What case can be made for the freshman that outweighs or cannot be countered by the arguments for the senior? Preparing for the future vs potential for injury and the impact that could have not only on this season but next? Performance flaws vs limited sample? Hype vs production? I'm not saying Watson can't outperform Stoudt. I'm saying it may not be such a good thing to be in a hurry to find out at this point.
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All-TigerNet [13360]
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Boil it all down and
Sep 7, 2014, 11:06 AM
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All I am saying is that seniority alone should not be rewarded. Just showing up shouldn't get you a trophy.
I do think DW has looked better that Cole and they both have a limited sample size. If you see no difference, that's fine. There are sound arguments for both, but seniority and feelings should not be variables.
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Trainer [33]
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Re: Boil it all down and
Sep 7, 2014, 11:10 AM
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I'm not making a case that seniority should be the only deciding factor only that is should be a consideration. It's an awful world where commitment and dedication carry no merit.
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Scout Team [182]
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Re: Boil it all down and
Sep 7, 2014, 11:11 AM
[ in reply to Boil it all down and ] |
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Agree. Experience is a variable, but not seniority and feelings. Those are irrelevant in this debate.
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Trainer [33]
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Re: Boil it all down and
Sep 7, 2014, 11:20 AM
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Do you not think football is an emotional game influenced by desire and attitude and character?... Do experience and seniority not by nature in most cases tend to go somewhat hand in hand?
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Scout Team [182]
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Re: Boil it all down and
Sep 7, 2014, 11:26 AM
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Experience and seniority are separable. Experience counts, seniority is irrelevant in starting QB decisions at this ultra competitive level of football.
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Trainer [33]
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Re: Boil it all down and
Sep 7, 2014, 3:24 PM
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Why practice?
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Scout Team [182]
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Re: Boil it all down and
Sep 7, 2014, 4:14 PM
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Practice + games + meetings/preparation = experience
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Legend [16186]
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Re: Boil it all down and
Sep 7, 2014, 7:04 PM
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Somebody must be getting paid by the word.
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All-TigerNet [13360]
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Re: Boil it all down and
Sep 7, 2014, 11:29 AM
[ in reply to Re: Boil it all down and ] |
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The emotions that matter are mostly anger and aggression.
Coles seniority= 4th year on the team
Coles experience= garbage time in 2 seasons and starter of 2 games
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Scout Team [182]
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Re: Boil it all down and
Sep 7, 2014, 11:31 AM
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Experience also includes hours and hours of practice time and working with coaches in the meeting room. That counts!
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All-TigerNet [13360]
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Re: Boil it all down and
Sep 7, 2014, 11:36 AM
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It only counts IF it improves your performance. Performance and execution are where the rubber meets the road.
There are surgeons that are great with diagnosing the problems, but they have horrible hands. They are still considered bad surgeons.
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Trainer [33]
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Re: Boil it all down and
Sep 7, 2014, 11:38 AM
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Are you saying Stoudt is not performing well as the starter?
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All-TigerNet [13360]
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Re: Boil it all down and
Sep 7, 2014, 11:49 AM
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For the record this whole debate for me has been about how the decision for QB should be made and what factors should or should not be considered. To end this I will say, Coach Swinney has the most to loose and I trust that he is making the right decision to give us the best chance to win. I think the "controversy" is magnified for some of the reasons you have brought up... Trying to keep Cole from getting discouraged.
To answer you question... My eyes tell me that DW is a much better QB than Cole. I am not impressed with Cole's decision making or execution. I wasn't a huge fan of TB's decision making, but his execution was generally excellent.
I think with this offense, Morris always need a "spark" and DW has the ability to create that spark IMO.
Again just my opinion....
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Trainer [33]
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Re: Boil it all down and
Sep 7, 2014, 11:59 AM
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Seems reasonable enough to me... We really aren't that far apart. I to think Watson looks to be a great option at QB. I do think Cole has performed well though and at the end of the day think he has earned his opportunity as long as he doesn't seem to be a weakness. Personally I think games are won and lost at the line of scrimmage and that as long as our OL is questionable either of the QB's are going to experience good and bad moments. I personally don't like the rating systems for recruits. I think the most valuable players on every team are in the trenches and too much value is placed on QB's and WR's. I'd pick a five star offensive and defensive line and a stable of running backs over a world beater QB and receiving corp any day.
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All-TigerNet [13360]
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Agree
Sep 7, 2014, 12:09 PM
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What do u think about our O-line play so far?
I can't tell what's really happening. I see us blocking really well or everything breaking down at the same time. Just seems like an effort issue to me.
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Trainer [33]
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Re: Agree
Sep 7, 2014, 12:34 PM
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I think we are thin and don't get great push... I think that power teams like Alabama, LSU, Auburns, and GA's depend on superior line play to win and because of that linemen and running backs are drawn there. I don't think we are one of those teams. I think we have adopted our current scheme because we haven't been able to bring in those kinds of players so we have looked to the high paced passing game to try and give us a chance against the big boys. I think this is why we have had such good wide outs and QB play. Everybody would love to be able to line up and pound the ball on offense and rush the passer and stuff the run on defense but I don't think we are one of those teams right now. I think the powers that be at Clemson know this and deal with the hand they are dealt. I looked at our roster against GA and if I remember they listed 15 offensive linemen on a 3 deep lineup where as we listed 7 or 8 on a two deep. Until we are playing a true 10 man rotation with future NFL guys in at most of the 2 deep I don't think we can expect much more than a 10-2 season on average with the occasional when over a true power team and the occasional loss to a similar or slightly less talented team... Hopefully next years offensive line class and a power running back or two in the next two classes will pay some big dividends in 2 or 3 years. I enjoy every season's ups and downs but barring injury and early departure I really look forward to Watson's junior and senior year as a potential landmarks on offense. You could see a uber talented veteran QB with experience, a veteran receiving corp with a ton of talent, an Oline with a lot of sophomore and junior talent and hopefully a handful of running backs that recognize the opportunity to play behind an improved line. I'm not certain where we will be on defense at that point as very little of our current lineup will still be around but that's another discussion.
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Trainer [33]
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Re: Boil it all down and
Sep 7, 2014, 3:26 PM
[ in reply to Re: Boil it all down and ] |
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Every day in the program provides experience... Maybe not game day experience as the starter but valuable experience none the less.
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All-TigerNet [14090]
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All-TigerNet [13360]
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Re: Really?
Sep 7, 2014, 9:59 AM
[ in reply to Re: Really? ] |
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Your assumptions all conclude with the senior guy getting discouraged and quitting. Then everyone sees him get the "shaft" and they quit too.
There is no tenure in football, or the private sector for that matter! You don't get the job just because you were there. I don't think Cole sees it this way and that's a good thing.
Let me paint a different picture for you... Take your same example, but there is a new guy that is better. But instead of that guy getting the job, the boss gives the job to a senior guy basically because he has "put in the time" and not because of talent or ability. This does 2 things that are much more detrimental than old guys quitting in my opinion.
1- reduces talent level of the company
2- discourages new talent from working for you.
Both of these things will get you beat by your competitors! If you don't have healthy competition within each position, you can't compete as a whole.
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Trainer [33]
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Re: Really?
Sep 7, 2014, 10:25 AM
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You are right... I am giving the old guy the benefit of the doubt because I feel he deserves it more than the new guy. I am not assuming that the new guy is significantly better prepared or a better option. You are wrong in that I don't assume the others will cease to play... Only that they may cease to care as much.
Different than where you or I work a college coach can't go out and replace a player that is no longer committed. He can let them go to stop the spread of discontent but he cannot hire a new one. This is a different consideration. If you have a senior QB that has already recieved all you have to offer except for playing time and he is performing at a good level and you have a backup that appears to be more than capable then you are in a much stronger position to have a successful season than you are if you have freshman starter who is performing at a good level with a disinterested backup. Cole may have the character fortitude to remain engaged with the team even if the coaches prove to be less interested in his better interest but in my opinion that would be asking a lot of him and at this point a bit premature. I just don't believe that having Watson start over Stoudt would have won the Ga game and I don't think it will give us any tremendous advantage against FSU. There is no way to prove or disprove this. I think that the team looks good enough to win every other game with Stoudt at the wheel... I think Stoudt's career is pretty much over if he is not given every opportunity to demonstrate his worth. The same is not true for Watson. Thus I don't believe that there is much to gain by switching at this point but there is definitely something to be lost.
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All-TigerNet [13360]
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I'm assuming scheussler should get the back up spot then?
Sep 7, 2014, 10:32 AM
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He's put in his time to say the least. He is a good QB! Give him the benefit of the doubt.
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Trainer [33]
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Re: I'm assuming scheussler should get the back up spot then?
Sep 7, 2014, 10:40 AM
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In a perfect world certainly he should... The world is not perfect. Obviously he has not demonstrated enough to the coaches to be named the starter. The same is not true of Stoudt.
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All-TigerNet [13360]
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That's not what you said.
Sep 7, 2014, 10:54 AM
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You can't say it's up to the coaches here to determine based on talent alone! This is about rewarding dedication.
How discouraged are the rest of Nicks teammates? They do see that he practices hard for 4 years and all he gets is garbage time right? How does he "care?" This has got to be awful for morality!
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Trainer [33]
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Re: That's not what you said.
Sep 7, 2014, 11:05 AM
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Sorry but you are creating an imaginary corner to try and back me into... It's not all or nothing. The coaches told us and the team that Watson would be given opportunity to play and thus valuable experience. They never said that Watson has outperformed Stoudt at any point. They also told us that they are pleased with Stoudt's performance as the starter and that he has done everything asked of him... Both are by all accounts living up to expectations. To interject another player who has never been seen as performing at the same level simply because he is a senior is in my mind nowhere near what I have presented. That's not a positions I have presented nor one I am prepared to try and defend.
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All-TigerNet [13360]
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TU! I'm glad you agree with me!
Sep 7, 2014, 11:09 AM
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Go Tigers!
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Enthusiast [115]
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Re: Simple supposition...
Sep 7, 2014, 8:21 AM
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More ramifications than just removing a 2 barrel carb and replacing it with a 4 barrel to make the vehicle move faster.
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Scout Team [182]
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Re: Simple supposition...
Sep 7, 2014, 9:24 AM
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Your "simple" suppositions can probably be replicated thousands of times in colleges, high schools, and youth leagues across the country. Life is about competition and survival of the fittest is a natural "law", represented in the business world an part of COMPETITIVE sports. I suspect your type of philosophy is a reason for the "everyone gets a trophy" feeling prevailing in our culture, supporting your priority on "feelings".
EVERYONE going into a ultra competitive situation like Clemson knows the deal and know they could be supplanted any day by the next "Lebron James". This is life. That is the lesson I teach my child. He will be better off for it.
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Trainer [33]
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Re: Simple supposition...
Sep 7, 2014, 9:30 AM
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The happiest and most satisfied people I know are those who have learned to devalue their competitive nature and to think value the well being of others in their natural train of thought... Survival of the fittest is natural law but compassion is one of the highlights of human nature.
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Scout Team [182]
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Re: Simple supposition...
Sep 7, 2014, 9:44 AM
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I don't devalue compassion and also believe it is a high value that all of us should strive for. It has it's place. But, my gosh, this is major college football we are talking about.
Competition and failure have driven people to some of the highest human achievements in our history.
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Orange Blooded [3590]
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The simple answer is you develop the new QB. It takes time.***
Sep 7, 2014, 8:22 AM
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Legend [16186]
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Re: The simple answer is you develop the new QB. It takes time.***
Sep 7, 2014, 8:42 AM
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Mudfish,
Here's what I think about the real world.
Seniority counts in government and union jobs. In the rest of the world talent, ability, and potential trumps experience, loyalty and 'entitlement' almost every time.
I say this with no prejudice at all over the QB issue at Clemson. I want to win all the games. The coaches are paid very well to win the most games they can win over time. I expect and trust them to make the decision that will win the most games. I want us to win the largest possible number of games this year AND next year. Most think you do that one game at a time.
Harley
Message was edited by: Harley®
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Trainer [33]
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Re: The simple answer is you develop the new QB. It takes time.***
Sep 7, 2014, 8:57 AM
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I've been in the public and private sector... I think you are right that the public sector tends to institutionalize the value of seniority where as the private sector does not so much... That said the public sector also has systems that are much more institutionalized and long standing than most in the private sector can dream of being, I think that folks who believe seniority (loyalty and commitment) in the private sector is not valued are just to blind to realize that every time a good employee is unwillingly replaced by an unproven new guy it undermines the company's image with it's other employees. Of course that in itself doesn't make it a bad management move. Often production increases after a change. But to say commitment is not valued is not very insightful. Also let's be honest, in the private sector decisions are made all the time that are about the personal interest of the Owner and have very little to do with the best interest of the organization.
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110%er [8049]
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Re: Simple supposition...
Sep 7, 2014, 8:47 AM
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Can't believe Dabo took the time to write this.
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Orange Blooded [2702]
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More like Karl Marx***
Sep 7, 2014, 9:03 AM
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Trainer [33]
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Re: More like Karl Marx***
Sep 7, 2014, 9:13 AM
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I'm certainly more considerate of the societal implications than some... That said I believe a good teammate cares about the success of the people around him as well as if not maybe a little more than the final score.
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Orange Blooded [2702]
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Man I hear ya
Sep 7, 2014, 9:42 AM
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I too care for the feelings of our student athletes. When it all comes down to it these guys put in all this hard work for themselves. Not us. We are bystanders that have no real say in determining the outcome of the game. So let's look at it from the team point of view, which is where you believe individual morale would decline by denying a player of seniority a chance to play in favor of a more skilled newcomer.
I say these guys play to win, not to make each other feel good about themselves. Therefore the team realizes that any of their positions are always on the line. I don't ever like watching that lion run down that gazelle but it's part of life. Reward comes with risk. You risk never playing as a starter when you sign with a team like Clemson. Cole knew the risk. It's unfortunate but maybe he's just the gazelle.
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Trainer [33]
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Re: Man I hear ya
Sep 7, 2014, 9:58 AM
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Maybe... But so far the only thing even remotely resembling disappointing I've seen in Stoudt is that Watson looks good too. I'm also not certain that I buy that the players don't care about each other. I have no experience on this level but I know at every level I played on sportsmanship and team attitude were preached above winning. I never heard a coach say we want to win at any cost and we don't care how you carry yourself to get there. Quite frankly I think the main reason you go above and beyond win you face adversity is not a will to win anymore than it is a commitment and willingness sacrifice self for the cause. That's why it is so good to have examples like Daniel Rodriguez on the team or to say good bye to the Kelly's of the world. You are developing a bonded atmosphere where folks not only respect one another they also care about one another.
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Orange Blooded [2702]
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Re: Simple supposition...
Sep 7, 2014, 8:49 AM
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Your supposition assumes approximately the same amount of ability between the players, which does not apply in our circumstance.
Let's assume your one of the other 84 players on the team. Your goal is to win a football game. Are you not owed the right to have the best teammates playing to achieve the goal of winning? Should Mackenzie Alexander be on the bench for some senior?
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Enthusiast [115]
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Re: Simple supposition...
Sep 7, 2014, 9:05 AM
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Why can't we wait just a little while on DW let him have a few more games to prove that he's the real deal. 2 games and 13 attempts imo aren't enough.
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Trainer [33]
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Re: Simple supposition...
Sep 7, 2014, 9:20 AM
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I'm with you... Actually I probably take it a step further. I think it should be Cole's job to lose so I try not to worry as much about Deshawn's performance. At the end of the day I will probably have to be disappointed in Cole and even more so in our coaches' talent development before I am ready to call for Deshawn. I think our coaches should really be questioned if a freshman walks on campus more prepared to play QB than a talented senior who as been in their system for years. Athleticism is huge but shouldn't training and maturity at least be somewhat of an advantage in it's own right?
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Trainer [33]
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Re: Simple supposition...
Sep 7, 2014, 9:07 AM
[ in reply to Re: Simple supposition... ] |
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First let me say that I think Watson has been very good... That said I think Stoudt has as well and I trust the coaches to be more aware of the talent and performance of the two as a whole than anyone here or a media that loves controversy...
I may be a Clemson fan first and a football fan second but I just don't buy into the mantra that it's win today at all costs so I'm willing to consider much more than what I've seen in a handful of drives in this young season... I think the University as an institution has a certain responsibility to it's students. That is to help them all succeed. Cole and Deshawn are football players but they are also student ambassadors for my university. I hope that this is being considered by our coaches when they manage their team. I have no issue with the idea that the job is Cole's to lose. I do have a problem with snatching any opportunity he might have to continue his career away from him just because Deshawn looks to be a great player. His time hill come soon enough. At worst case for him he plays a lot this year and starts next. This seems like a great scenario for both and I have little to lose no matter what.
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All-TigerNet [14090]
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It's 2014, not 1974. Catch up with the times...
Sep 7, 2014, 9:17 AM
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You put the best players on the field, not based off of age or time in the program.
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Trainer [33]
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Re: It's 2014, not 1974. Catch up with the times...
Sep 7, 2014, 9:23 AM
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So all we pay the coaches and trainers for is recruiting?... Why do so many here assume they know more about the performance of the two QB's and the management of the team as a whole than the coaches? Personally I haven't seen anything from Cole to make me think he's not ready to perform.
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All-TigerNet [14090]
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Nearly threw 3 picks, had to settle for a few FG's....
Sep 7, 2014, 9:35 AM
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Had Adam Humprhies wide open for a TD pass, but under threw it and hit the SC State nickel back in his hands who was six steps behind Adam. Missed a wide open Mike Williams coming across the middle. Missed an open Demare Kitt. Had Charone Peak open on a deep pass, waited too late to throw and under threw it allowing the SC State DB to catch up and nearly make an interception. Threw it right to an SC State linebacker, who luckily dropped it. Threw the ball 10 yards over the head of Germone Hopper, who was open in the flats for a TD.
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Scout Team [182]
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Re: It's 2014, not 1974. Catch up with the times...
Sep 7, 2014, 9:36 AM
[ in reply to Re: It's 2014, not 1974. Catch up with the times... ] |
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Have you not seen his lack of mobility, relatively slow release, and inconsistency throwing the long ball? Some of these limitations are pretty obvious.
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Trainer [33]
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Re: It's 2014, not 1974. Catch up with the times...
Sep 7, 2014, 10:57 AM
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Honestly I hadn't noticed those so much... I've seen him pressured by OL breakdowns and several perfectly thrown balls dropped. I've seen a few questionable plays but the sample size is much larger and history tells me not to expect perfection from either. I expect Watson to be more mobile but I don't expect lack of mobility to be a huge handicap for Stoudt. I expect Stoudt to be seen in more challenging situations because he is the starter. I expect opposing defenses to me more prepared for Stoudt because he is the starter. At most at this points I am willing to concede that Stoudt looks as good to me as Taj in his limited time as starter and in that comparison he may earn an opportunity to prolong his football career after Clemson given the chance. If the coaches decide that is outweighed by the benefits of pressing Watson into the starting role then they will.
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110%er [6321]
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Re: It's 2014, not 1974. Catch up with the times...
Sep 7, 2014, 3:07 PM
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Could the OL breakdown be because a qb is slow and takes too much time to get the play developed? When there is a breakdown, does it not make you wonder why?
If you have not noticed his lack of mobility, relatively slow release, and inconsistency throwing the long ball, then you have not watched stoudt enough to even make a judgement why you think he deserves the start. It is like you are saying everything is based on being on the team for 4 yrs. Not sure how you can back up your statements if you have not watched him, but instead are watching the OL more
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Trainer [33]
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Re: It's 2014, not 1974. Catch up with the times...
Sep 7, 2014, 3:29 PM
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Honestly that's kind of in line with my point... We haven't seen much of Stoudt and even less of Watson. If the coaches who have say that Stoudt is playing well enough to maintain his starting role and Watson is doing great things with his opportunities then I'm happy to buy in.
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Orange Blooded [4989]
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Re: Simple supposition...
Sep 7, 2014, 9:32 AM
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Every suggestion in your rabble went out of the window when money became involved with Collegiate sports. It's hard for me to sympathize with a kid wh
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Trainer [33]
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Re: Simple supposition...
Sep 7, 2014, 9:34 AM
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Isn't that sad?
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All-TigerNet [13038]
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4) Let's give trophes to everyone for participation. We
Sep 7, 2014, 9:35 AM
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are all winners.
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Trainer [33]
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Re: 4) Let's give trophes to everyone for participation. We
Sep 7, 2014, 9:42 AM
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Wouldn't it be nice if that were true?... I'm not suggesting that no one should lose. I'm saying that Cole Stoudt as given to the team and as such should be rewarded with the opportunity to prove himself. Deshawn is getting his fair shake.
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Team Captain [496]
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Re: Simple supposition...
Sep 7, 2014, 9:54 AM
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For as many weeks as the Senior QB plays well he is the starter.
As soon as Auburn knocks him around and he begins playing at a "different" level (intensity?) the switch to the Freshman is made.
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Commissioner [967]
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I guess Nick Schuessler should start next year
Sep 7, 2014, 10:05 AM
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He's put in two more years of hard work that Watson, has waited his turn, and I'm sure he'd love to have the starting position. I'm sure he along with all of the other players who give their all day in and day out just as much as the starters would love to get more playing time, or any playing time for that matter.
One of the most important things to learn, which seems to be suppressed now, is that life isn't fair. Some are born with ultra talent; some are not.
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Orange Blooded [3908]
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A better argument, is who gives us the best chance to win?
Sep 7, 2014, 10:08 AM
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And accomplish both short, and long, term goals of the team and program.
I have no doubt the coaches think Cole gave us the best chance to win at UGa. Stoudt didn't get the start nor majority of the play because of seniority...he got it because they thought he gave us the best chance to win. Agree or not with that is fine, but to assume Stoudt started because of age is idiocy and actually condescending to him.
Personally, I think the coaches view it as a guy w/ more experience, and excellent talent...gives us a better chance in these first 3 games. Again, disagree w/ that...fine...but I think we'll see more and more of Watson here shortly. If he ends up starting the UNC game (I think he will earn that), then he got it because he earned it.
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Trainer [33]
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Re: A better argument, is who gives us the best chance to win?
Sep 7, 2014, 10:38 AM
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No idiocy in assuming that seniority and experience has return in performance. I can't fault anything Watson has done in his limited duty but that has no bearing on my evaluation of Stoudt's performance. To me he has looked good and as the incumbent it is his job to lose. If we throw that consideration out then the job could clearly be handed over to Watson but it would only be reasonable to expect that the value of commitment and team loyalty should be reduced as a result. As a coach who is asking the players for maximum effort on every play I'm not sure whether it's better to motivate with the whip (threat of being replaced) or the carrot (reward for effort) but I'm certain that throwing senior team leaders under the bus is an opportunity for concern and a choice I would not make very happily.
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Orange Blooded [3908]
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Last I checked, this is big boy football.
Sep 7, 2014, 11:09 AM
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No one is guaranteed any position.
Your argument borders on seniority and experience are the only factors, most everyone here is saying those things play a part - but they aren't the only thing.
Cole, and everyone, on the team expects the coaches to put the team in the best position to win. If that means eventually a younger guy beating out an older - so be it.
If you think Stoudt would pout/quit because he lost his tarting position - well, I think a lot more of Cole than you do. My guess is he'd work harder to try and win the position back - and be ready to help the team however necessary.
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Trainer [33]
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Re: Last I checked, this is big boy football.
Sep 7, 2014, 11:16 AM
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It is not and never has been my opinion that playing time should be guaranteed based on seniority or experience... Only that loyalty and commitment should be rewarded with opportunity and that when opportunity presents itself you must perform in order to seize it. At this point I believe Stoudt has performed well enough to maintain his position as starter and that he deserves some respect because of his commitment and performance.
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Orange Blooded [2519]
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You need to quit pretending to have any conservative
Sep 7, 2014, 11:45 AM
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tendencies, you are a leftist through and through.
You also underestimate the importance of winning. Winning is why they work, sweat, endure pain, study, stay away from bad situations, etc. They eat, drink, sleep football so they can win.
Seniority means nothing if you can't win.
In the public sector, there is no "winning", except in the military. (Should they reward loyalty or promote the leaders who will keep them alive?) But gov't jobs are just go-through-the-motions jobs. People are forced to come to you, you don't have to show a profit, you don't have to be efficient, or even good at what you do.
In the private sector, profit=winning.
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Trainer [33]
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Re: You need to quit pretending to have any conservative
Sep 7, 2014, 12:15 PM
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One of the beauties of chat rooms is that when someone tries to tell you that they no better than you it can do as much to reinforce your position as it does to make you question yourself. This is one of those cases. I have only to read the news everyday to confirm that I have conservative tendencies. Not that I and a starch republican but that I tend more towards a particular nature. That said I don't believe that conservative nature means I need to put any huge merit winning a game... I also don't believe a liberal nature would stop someone from enjoying victory. At the end of the day placing more value on a score board than on the experience or the interest of a team mate does little to gain my respect. I don't see this as a political determiner as much as a spiritual and philosophical choice.
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Orange Blooded [2519]
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But it's your take on the importance of winning that shows
Sep 7, 2014, 12:30 PM
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the mindset of a leftist. That mindset leads to all the leftist policy ideas and such. It's more subjective and concerned with people and less objective and concerned with results.
There is a balance, but the objective must always have supremacy over the subjective concerns of the people involved. (i e. why they are all there in the first place)
I also like chat rooms, because you can have discussions about a myriad of topics with lots of people that you have never met and otherwise would never be able to talk to.
It's also your focus on the small picture (Stoudt vs Watson), while not keeping the big picture in focus (Winning vs Losing) that shows you think more like a liberal than a conservative.
Everybody enjoys winning, though.
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Trainer [33]
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Re: But it's your take on the importance of winning that shows
Sep 7, 2014, 1:01 PM
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I doubt the majority of people who identify with conservative tendencies would define themselves as putting winning above the future well being of those they care about regardless of the score. I also don't think my consideration of potential impact on the mindset of the team or the depth of the program in the short and longterm is specifically near sighted. I simply believe that in a perfect world your developed players perform well and your rookies step up when given the opportunity. I believe there is little to be desired in a system that pushes its contributors out the door prematurely. If that makes me a liberal in your mind so be it because that position is really not that significant to me. I'm no more insulted when my family from the upstate calls me a geechee than I am when my relatives in the lower state call me a hill billy.
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110%er [6321]
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should sammy have started his freshman year?..
Sep 7, 2014, 3:16 PM
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there were many wr's that had been on the team a lot longer.
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Trainer [33]
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Re: should sammy have started his freshman year?..
Sep 7, 2014, 3:23 PM
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Did he separate himself from them?... You typically play 6 or more wide receivers in a game... Apples and oranges in my book. If the coaches believed Watson was head and shoulders better than Stoudt I would expect them to make the change. If they don't think Watson gives them a better chance to when then I have no issue with how they are doing things. I don't presume to know more about their decision making process than they do and they are paid big bucks to manage the team because they have demonstrated a far superior knowledge of how to run the program than any casual fan, most players, and a majority of other coaches.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Simple supposition...
Sep 7, 2014, 10:31 AM
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What in the whirl is this junk?
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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it's politics.***
Sep 7, 2014, 11:06 AM
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All-In [44026]
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4) You are the best QB on the team and have outperformed the
Sep 7, 2014, 1:31 PM
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starter, but you are only a freshman and have been told to "be patient and wait your turn." You are in a tough position thought, because you are a true freshman and are backing up a senior who has paid his dues or three years. However, you also have performed nearly flawlessly in the first two games, with a QB rating of 350. The starter has played well, but you bring something extra to the table. You were promised a fair opportunity to win the starting job, and chose your current school over many other top programs. Are you willing to continue as a backup, even though you feel that you give the team the best chance to win?
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Trainer [33]
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Re: 4) You are the best QB on the team and have outperformed the
Sep 7, 2014, 1:45 PM
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If that's the choice offered to you and you know that sooner rather than later the you will inherit the keys to the car then why not?
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All-In [44026]
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What is sooner rather than later?
Sep 7, 2014, 2:10 PM
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One game? Four games? The end of the year?
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Trainer [33]
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Re: What is sooner rather than later?
Sep 7, 2014, 2:13 PM
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Considering how few true freshmen play QB in big time college football games when there is an incumbent starter who is performing at a good clip on the team I would say any playing time now with an almost guaranteed starting spot in what could have been your redshirt freshman season almost anywhere else is "sooner rather than later".
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All-In [44026]
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So if Stoudt continues to play reasonably well...
Sep 7, 2014, 2:54 PM
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would you keep him the starter? Does it matter to you how well Watson plays? Or is the fact that Stoudt is a senior who waited his turn too much for Watson to overcome this year?
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Trainer [33]
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Re: So if Stoudt continues to play reasonably well...
Sep 7, 2014, 3:15 PM
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Reasonably well is subjective...Yes, if Stoudt's playing at a level the coaches find acceptable then I would expect him to remain the starter as seems to be the case at the moment. I would expect them to continue to get Watson meaningful experience since his redshirt is lost and he will be the starter next year.
This would seem to be the best case scenario for all concerned versus a worst case scenario where Stoudt falls apart, Watson replaces him and proves to be human and then is injured leaving us with no good option this season or next. Couple 9 or 10 wins and hopefully a victory against USC and with anything in between and I would fine this season to be one of great successes.
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110%er [6321]
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which is it?
Sep 7, 2014, 3:23 PM
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Couple 9 or 10 wins and hopefully a victory against USC and with anything in between and I would fine this season to be one of great successes.
or
At the end of the day placing more value on a score board than on the experience or the interest of a team mate does little to gain my respect. I don't see this as a political determiner as much as a spiritual and philosophical choice.
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Trainer [33]
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Re: which is it?
Sep 7, 2014, 3:42 PM
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Honestly it appears you process information differently than I do... I've typed a whole bunch today and if your cherry picking finds this to be my biggest contradiction you must not have looked very hard.
Try this for clarification...
Placing more value on a scoreboard than on the interest of one's team mate does little in and of itself to gain my respect. If the team could couple 9 or 10 wins and a victory against USC with a solid senior campaign for Stoudt and some valuable experience for Watson I will view this season as a grand success. If not then I'm sure they'll come thru better for the effort. If they lose every game then I don't expect Stoudt will have remained the starter and imagine that Watson will need some serious coaching up next spring. Either way I'll be here enjoying my armchair and tuning in to see whats next and I don't expect it will effect my ballot or emotional well being.
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Oculus Spirit [93639]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95403
Joined: 12/25/09
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Simple answer.
Sep 7, 2014, 3:31 PM
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You hire a guy to do a job then let him do it. We did, he is, we quack
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