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See some folks throwing around formations, 20, 21 personnel.
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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See some folks throwing around formations, 20, 21 personnel.
May 11, 2020, 7:23 AM
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here's a decent site with images that might help some better mind's eye what people are referring to when designating.
https://fantasyfootballers.org/Football-101-Offensive-Personnel-Packages/
Also, for those that might not completely understand the field & boundary, it is driven by short side, wide side from the ball. The boundary[Clemson's 9] is the short side based on where the ball is placed relative to the hash. It's more accentuated in college because the hashes are further apart, than in the NFL. High school follows the college standard.
The field is the wide side. Defensively, you'll see adjustments based on the offense's field/boundary, usually having your best corner play the offense's boundary, allowing you to put more defense against the field[Clemson's 2] where space is at a premium.
For giggles, not that anyone is wrong, but see some suggest Clemson might go to a 2 back set, 21[2 RBs, 1 TE, 2 WRs] or 20[2 RBs, 0 TE & 3 WRs]. I could see the staff offering those limited looks, even though they've not done much if at all in reality[Morris used to move Sammy into the backfield, which was disastrous] as most 2 "back" sets have been an HB in practice. What happens though in 21, is counter to the spread as you bring the defense in where spreads are designed to do exactly what they say, spread the defense out creating space through scheme & not sheer brute force.
Amazing group of talent the staff continues to put together with the offense having changed "drastically" in ways to an incredibly explosive offense from one based on volume plays as it has been in the past. That's always moving though as defenses attempt to make offenses uncomfortable in what they do best.
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110%er [7427]
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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It's a good visual to keep handy. Not sure where I got...
May 11, 2020, 7:57 AM
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it floating around the webs years back, but if STS is the pater familias, good on them.
Thanks, glorious.
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Oculus Spirit [82058]
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This doesn't help me at all.
May 11, 2020, 8:06 AM
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signed, cutigerbob®
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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Mother Theresa was canonized for her miracles, not sure...
May 11, 2020, 8:16 AM
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she could have helped bob.
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CU Medallion [55408]
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Re: See some folks throwing around formations, 20, 21 personnel.
May 11, 2020, 8:08 AM
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With the talent that BV gets in and coaches up, he can play man against what ever offense that teams and offensive coordinators throws at him. In BV I trust!!!
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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BV mixes it up as well as anyone, might be the best...
May 11, 2020, 8:12 AM
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in this day at making opposing offenses uncomfortable. A good reason to tip the hat to LSU for what they managed once they got their feet under them.
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110%er [5031]
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Re: See some folks throwing around formations, 20, 21 personnel.
May 11, 2020, 9:05 AM
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I'll plead guilty to "throwing around formations" - at least for 21 personnel, for several reasons:
* The idea that a spread offense creates "space" is true, but it's a matter of where the space is created and what defenses do to counter the creation of space. When the spread was fairly new, defenses had to adjust because the short middle of the field was easy pickings for H-backs and slot receivers. When the defenses tried to bring down safeties to clog up some of the holes, it opened the secondary for deep slants and slant/go routes. Various "nickel" and "dime" combinations were developed to counter by adding a CB, a S or both against some offensive sets and those defenses have been fairly successful against the spread when good talent is well-coached.
* As for a 2-back offense accomplishing the opposite of the spread concept, that's true in the area of the normal spread receiver operating space just behind the LBs, but when it brings in the defense, it opens up space in the deep secondary that can be exploited by good outside WRs, plus it provides increased QB protection that buys time to allow the deep receivers to work.
* The key to using a 2-back or 21 set is a good O-line and having enough talent in the second back - he needs to be someone who can run, block and catch - exactly what is evident in Shipley. This type of player can be lined up as a halfback, TB, FB, H-back or flanker in the slot. ore importantly, he can be a 3 down player, who can normally be lined up in the 21 set, but then shifted to the slot as an extra receiver (or vice-versa) without taking time for a substitution, which keeps the defense from substituting.
* The substitution necessity on defense to counter certain offensive sets is a definite advantage to an offense. If the offense is versatile enough to show different looks without substitutions, it makes defending it much more difficult.
* So, as for bringing in the defense, that's the whole idea and not a bad thing if used for a purpose that puts a compact defense in a jam..... particularly if done at the right time in the game. There is always an area of the field where space can be created, if the right combination of talent match-ups and formations are used.
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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Haha, no need to be "guilty", I admire anyone that has...
May 11, 2020, 9:19 AM
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taken the time to learn/understand it. I hoped to offer a guide for those that were playing along at home and might not be as in tune as you and others.
Everything done on the field by the offense should be to create a reaction from the defense based on their keys. The D's most basic being hat up/hat down, which is one reason the Read Option is so lethal in college and harder to accomplish in the Pros, unless you're Andy Reid and the refs continue to allow Ineligible Downfield.
As mentioned, nothing's wrong, and what you suggest might happen, could. It's not been this staff's, Clemson's offensive MO, but Clemson hasn't had this kind of depth of potential at RB to date.
A lot left to be determined, including the amount of time the staff would give to this so that everyone could be made comfortable. Dabo's been a stout, this is what we do and do it well, guy since Morris started waxing about running 4-5 plays, over and over, perfecting them, and then run them again.
We've also seen far fewer moving parts, maybe driven by need as Tahj might have needed the movement to ID defenses where those that follow have not.
It'll be fun to watch.
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110%er [5031]
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Re: Haha, no need to be "guilty", I admire anyone that has...
May 11, 2020, 9:38 AM
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You're right - it hasn't been our MO -another good reason to try it.
Defenses are getting better at defending the spread - and if a spread offense has any weaknesses, those defenses can be very good at taking away what a spread team tries to do on offense (see LSU-CU). We did not have the ability to work the middle and it freed the LSU defense up to head-hunt on our WRs.
Strategies (both offensive and defensive) are always changing to meet circumstances. I can remember before BV's time when we would bring down the safeties, the LBs would squat in place and a WR would blow through us on a deep route and take the top off our D in a split second. UofSC did it to us in one game and I'll never forget saying "This isn't going to end well" when we lined up with only one DB more than 5 yards from the LOS. Sure enough, it was a fast 6 for them. We're a heckuva lot better than that now, but everybody isn't and I'd like to take advantage of the defenses that don't have enough talent or coaching to keep up with changes in CFB. So, I'd like us to recognize what changes we're facing and always have an answer so we're ahead of the opponent.
I grew up playing single-wing and Full-T football and I believe a lot can be accomplished through what some consider "throwback" football if the opponent isn't coached to defend it.
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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It would be the same thinking in trying the I or more...
May 11, 2020, 9:53 AM
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typical Pro Sets. Not sure it's needed, or warranted at the time, but remaining still so to speak does provide an easier target. I don't believe that's where this offense finds itself now, but it remains to be seen.
I know people gave Saban a difficult time for saying Clemson was using copy cat plays, but it was as honest and on point as any coach could be at a half-time interview. I lauded him for it. As a defense, they had years of cut ups & game film to key what Clemson does as a matter of course, but our offensive staff used typical formation to key them one way, then Clemson went against its trend. It didn't take new formations or scheme to accomplish the same thing we're discussing - it was brilliant.
I know Morris tried some things, Pistol being one, to get the run game going. It didn't last long and when Chad left, it was the one thing Dabo guaranteed as "change", "We are going to run the ball," which was what was promised when Chad came on board, the smash-mouth spread.
I'd say mission accomplished and as much a reason as any Clemson is so loaded at the RB spot. It'll be fun to watch and interested as any how the staff might put all the wonderful pieces in play.
Good stuff.
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110%er [5031]
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Re: It would be the same thinking in trying the I or more...
May 11, 2020, 12:36 PM
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Well, that's bordering on an area of confusion for some folks. 20/21/22 etc. personnel distinctions have little to do with the formation the offense runs. It's only the player type count that is used to run the formation. As an example, the I-formation can be run with 20, 21, 22 or 23 personnel variations. The 20 and 21 would be I-spread formations with 3 (no TE) or 2 WRs (1 H-B or TE), the 22 would be run with 1 WR (or H-back or flanker) and 1 TE or 2 TEs - and the 23 would be a heavy formation with 3 TEs.
A 23 personnel unbalanced-line I-formation would be a sight to behold with our 3TEs and a FB at the point of attack on the goal line running off-tackle. We've run a version of it a few times with our heavy package. I'd like to see more of it on 3rd down - not just on the goal line.
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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Understood, it was directed to the notion of "shaking"...
May 11, 2020, 12:55 PM
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things up when some have offered different looks because time & defenses might have caught up, nothing more - The Pistol was one of those. Not suggesting Clemson do these things, just the thought or idea of needing change behind it.
Anyway, Clemson's offense has hit another level in the last 2 years putting a fg plus more than it has since theChad first moved East from Tulsa way. Even early, when 41 & 40 were top 5ish, Clemson has eclipsed 43 & 44 in the last 2 years, so while defenses have far more film at hand, far more experience on tape, the numbers have risen.
All kinds of goodness for that, including being more careful with the football. So many good issues to have in pipeline now, and more of them coming on board.
If the world gets back to some semblance of normality in time for 2020 football, the questions will mount for the staff, how Jeff Scott's voice missing in offensive meetings might leave a void or invite opportunity with a new set of eyes. It's good to be Clemson it would seem, I'm sure the staff will thrill again.
Good read, and thanks.
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110%er [5031]
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Re: Understood, it was directed to the notion of "shaking"...
May 11, 2020, 1:07 PM
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No question..... the talent level and quantity of it has been elevated dramatically. I believe we now have the talent to do anything the staff can imagine. The onus is now on the coordinators to just imagine what will completely crush CFB. If they are as bright as I think, we have the coaches and trainers to get the players in position to be a dominant force in every game we play, including the championship game. What we lacked last year should be in place this year, so I look forward to the season and just hope it's played because it would truly be a shame to waste this teams opportunity because of COVID-19.
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110%er [8273]
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Re: See some folks throwing around formations, 20, 21 personnel.
May 11, 2020, 9:44 AM
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Time to bring back the 32 - wishbone
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Orange Blooded [2939]
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More stuff like this on the board please!!!!!
May 11, 2020, 9:57 AM
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This reminds me of TigerNet in the 90’s when more were in chat talking strategy and sports than there were on the boards.
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Heisman Winner [140523]
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The more we talk about packages...
May 11, 2020, 12:57 PM
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the better, I say.
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Replies: 16
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