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Hall of Famer [22381]
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Is Virginia Tech a good model of what our basketball program
Mar 25, 2019, 11:18 AM
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should be? Or, do we need to dial our expectations down to the current level?
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All-In [43989]
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That depends, will they be able to sustain their success
Mar 25, 2019, 11:22 AM
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beyond a few years? And will they be able to keep their coach?
We've never done either at Clemson.
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CU Guru [1824]
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I would rather have some success than constant mediocrity***
Mar 25, 2019, 11:33 AM
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All-In [43989]
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Okay, but that wasn't the question in the original post.***
Mar 25, 2019, 11:37 AM
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110%er [7929]
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Re: I would rather have some success than constant mediocrity***
Mar 25, 2019, 12:22 PM
[ in reply to I would rather have some success than constant mediocrity*** ] |
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So for every Barnes years you would take a Shaytt year? Also, there is no guarantee we get any Barnes years as WF, GT, Pitt and NCSU have cycled through coaches the last decade without much to show for it except a bunch of buyout debt
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CU Medallion [67659]
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Athletic Dir [895]
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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That has to be THE dumbest argument on Tigernet.
Mar 25, 2019, 11:37 AM
[ in reply to That depends, will they be able to sustain their success ] |
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Wouldn't it be great if we had a few years of NCAA Tournament runs in a row to go with a Sweet 16! I would love to get a coach who could get us into the tournament, keep us there a few years in a row, and then be in high demand by other schools who envy our success.
At least, with Brad, we don't have to worry about sustaining success or him leaving after a few years of success. No sir. I think we can keep him as long as we're willing to pay him $2.5 million dollars per year.
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All-In [43989]
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I want to build a sustainable program.
Mar 25, 2019, 11:41 AM
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Rather than continuing to be unable to keep coaches that get us into the NCAA Tournament several years in a row. Like it or not, Clemson is viewed as a stepping stone job, not a destination job. Do you know why? Because every potential head coach and his agent knows that Clemson is next to last in the ACC for basketball spending, and has the worst history in the ACC when it comes to basketball.
All of that has to change if Clemson wants to recruit a top coach and keep him here. As I've said before, Clemson basketball has never kept a successful coach.
Would a few years in a row of NCAA berths be exciting? Absolutely! But I'm not interested in bringing a coach in to do that, only to have him disappoint us by leaving after a few years, and having to find someone else we hope will be successful.
Hence my many posts about fixing the administrative/support issues first.
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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The idea that you would rather be bad and not lose the coach
Mar 25, 2019, 11:52 AM
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instead of getting good and MAYBE losing the coach seem short sighted at best and downright stupid at worst. I would take 5 years of success over 9 years of mediocrity any day of the week. How could you know what a coach will do if he is successful? You are creating impossible conditions for success.
Get a good coach that can recruit, let him build the program into a winner. We we will reward success. We shouldn't reward failure. If we can't keep him, we'll get someone else. Create success and sustain it. Right now, we are avoiding success and sustaining that lack of it.
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All-In [43989]
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I don't consider our current coach bad.
Mar 25, 2019, 12:36 PM
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I believe he has overachieved during his 9 years here, relative to our basketball history, current basketball landscape, and administrative/fan support, so I would like to see what he can do now that he finally has (some of) what he has been asking for, including the facility upgrades and staff additions he asked for for years but did not get until two years ago. Since then, Brownell led us to a Sweet 16 and an NIT.
I don't believe we are accepting mediocrity or rewarding failure by giving him another year or two. Yes, someone else might come in and be more successful, but then again, Brad might also be more successful now that some of these other things are now in place. Because he has done a lot of good things for the program, and is clearly dedicated to Clemson, I would rather see what he can do rather than going out and getting someone else now.
If we had hit two more shots this year, finished 21-10 overall and 11-7 in the ACC, and made the NCAA Tournament no problem, would you feel differently about him?
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Starter [386]
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overachieved during his 9 years here, relative
Mar 25, 2019, 12:59 PM
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to our basketball history.
True, and?
Is mediocre, failing to make the big tourney, and losing at home in the NIT supposed to be a happy place? History has nothing to do with today.
current basketball landscape,
What does that mean> Brownell hasn't overachieved relative to any landscape. That's bull.
and administrative/fan support,
The admin does support basketball. They've given Brad everything he needs to succeed.
Stop blaming fans. Win and they will come. Period. That's proven.
The time for if and buts is long past.
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All-In [43989]
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So you don't have a problem with our pathetic
Mar 25, 2019, 1:46 PM
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basketball budget?
Why do you expect Clemson's head basketball coach to compete with such disadvantages?
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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Why did OP and Barnes succeed with the same issues?
Mar 25, 2019, 1:46 PM
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why?
Why do you use that excuse to give BB a pass?
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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Barnes and OP didn't have the resources Brad has.
Mar 25, 2019, 1:51 PM
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Yet they greatly exceeded his performance in much less time. Some want to pretend that our success under those two never happened.
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All-In [43989]
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Of course it happened.
Mar 25, 2019, 1:53 PM
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But unfortunately, neither stayed long enough to see if they had truly built something sustainable or not.
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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Much rather have unsustainable success than no success.
Mar 25, 2019, 2:01 PM
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That is THE dumbest argument for mediocrity I have ever heard. Yet, you keep repeating it.
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All-In [43989]
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I'm not arguing for mediocrity. Please keep up.
Mar 25, 2019, 2:13 PM
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You are the one who seems content for Clemson to keep supporting basketball like an afterthought rather than a priority. I think we should spend much more on it, in order to be consistently successful and to keep a successful coach over the long term (whether that is Brownell or someone else).
What's so hard to understand about that?!?
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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You're not hard to keep up with. You're a broken record of
Mar 25, 2019, 3:11 PM
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excuses.
Of course we need to spend more on our basketball program. Equally as obvious is the fact that we need to find a new coach that can take full advantage of those additional resources. For some reason, you seem personally invested in Coach Brownell and are unable to see things objectively.
No more excuses.
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All-In [43989]
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I'm amazed you don't think Brad has taken advantage
Mar 25, 2019, 3:24 PM
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of the resources he has. We are 14th out of 15 in basketball spending in the ACC, but with an average finish of 7.4 in the ACC during Brad's nine years here. How is that not overachieving big time?!?
You're the one who has trouble being objective. I'm not sure what you expect from our pathetic investment in basketball at Clemson, but it's obviously out of touch with reality.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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where are we NOT spending money?
Mar 25, 2019, 3:27 PM
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it's not salary
LJ was just updated
Where do we need to spend more money, that we are currently not, that would make Brad win more?
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All-In [43989]
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Where are the millions more being spent by
Mar 25, 2019, 3:37 PM
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Virginia Tech, Virginia, Duke, UNC, etc. going? You tell me. We should probably look into putting more money into those areas ourselves.
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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Virginia Tech and Virginia are good examples of where we
Mar 25, 2019, 3:50 PM
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could be. They actually bring in less annual basketball revenues than we do, while spending very little more than we do, but all of what they take in, while having much greater success than we have. So, the money is there to spend to do what we are doing and a lot more. If we could get our attendance figures up, we could do even more. But, the ambivalence grows.
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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Capital Expenditures for Infrastructure are not included.
Mar 25, 2019, 3:38 PM
[ in reply to I'm amazed you don't think Brad has taken advantage ] |
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As DRad said, we have invested the necessary infrastructure. We are in the top half of the conference in facilities. Brad's been getting paid more every year. The football program's success has drawn considerable attention(and revenues) to our University. The only thing holding us back right now is the coaching staff.
I fully expect us to win more in the watered down ACC than we are and get into the NCAA Tournament more than we are. Coaching is our primary limitation right now.
Stop the excuses!
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All-In [43989]
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Stop calling our significant program deficiencies excuses.
Mar 25, 2019, 4:08 PM
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Accept the reality that Clemson has not funded or supported basketball worth a crap until several years ago, and even still we can do much better.
We all want a better program, but expecting our coach (any coach) to overcome these obstacles, build a program that wins at the highest level, and want to stick around for the long haul is expecting something that has never happened at Clemson.
Either we've hit bad luck over the past 100+ years with the coaches we've hired, or there are more significant issues at play. You decide.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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What about the 6 years of OP and Barnes? Was that luck?
Mar 25, 2019, 4:09 PM
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Why do you look at 100+ years, when that is not relevant to this discussion?
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All-In [43989]
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Okay then, why is Rick Barnes's tenure relevant?
Mar 25, 2019, 4:13 PM
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That was over 20 years ago, when the ACC was half the size it is now, our non-conference schedule was much worse than it is now, and the internet wasn't even commonplace in most people's homes.
Why do you get to decide which tenures are relevant and which ones aren't?
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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nice... let's disregard the 2 of the previous 3 coaches
Mar 25, 2019, 4:44 PM
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in favor of 100 years ago
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All-In [43989]
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The point is that you're picking and choosing who you want
Mar 25, 2019, 7:36 PM
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to use as comparisons to Brad and his tenure in order to "win" your argument.
How did you arrive at Barnes and Purnell? Why not Shyatt, Ellis, Foster, etc.? Why not look at our entire basketball history?
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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are you serious? The point is to win.. those guys won
Mar 25, 2019, 8:10 PM
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Shyatt did not
The point is to show it can be done, and that it was done recently. Why would I point to Shyatt to show that?
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Starter [386]
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Our budget isn't pathetic, and a good coach can show it
Mar 25, 2019, 7:46 PM
[ in reply to So you don't have a problem with our pathetic ] |
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despite the budget. That's proven over and over when coaches at smaller schools succeed on a higher level than us. A good coach shows it in the play of his team. Brad had a tremendous nucleus back and couldnt coach them into the tournament.
Its been 9 years Judge. There are no excuses.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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this is flat out false
Mar 25, 2019, 1:30 PM
[ in reply to I don't consider our current coach bad. ] |
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How has he "overachieved"? Why do you say "relative to our history"? Are you really going back 60 years to compare Brownell?
Why not look at recent history? How is he doing compared to coaches who recently had great success here? That should be the measuring stick... not Clemson basketball 40 years ago.
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All-In [43989]
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Well, we've been over this.
Mar 25, 2019, 1:49 PM
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Unfortunately, anytime we talk about Brad doing something better than prior coaches in recent memory, you move the goalposts (e.g., Brad's ACC winning percentage being the best in Clemson history). You downplay anything Brad has done better than other coaches, and instead focus on what he hasn't done.
But when I explained how making the NIT is harder now, which explains why we haven't been in the postseason every year but one during his 9 year tenure, all I got from you was crickets.
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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LOL!***
Mar 25, 2019, 1:51 PM
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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Do you re-read your own posts?
Mar 25, 2019, 2:08 PM
[ in reply to Well, we've been over this. ] |
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You are arguing that BB is more successful b/c "he would have made the NIT more if things weren't different". Are you serious? That is your defense? ALMOST making the NIT.
You want to use winning % in an expanded ACC. Yet you fail to acknowledge who those wins are against. If they were wins of any significance, we would have been to the NCAAT more than twice in 9 years.
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All-In [43989]
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You're completely missing the point.
Mar 25, 2019, 2:16 PM
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One of your arguments recently has been "Brownell has only made the postseason 5 of his 9 years here." You made the argument about postseason appearances in the NCAAs and NIT.
You went on to talk about how awful that is, and then listed previous coaches who made the postseason more often.
I responded with information about how the NIT is much harder to get into now, not to somehow make Brad seem more successful, but so that we can actually compare his tenure more accurately to his predecessors.
If you want to continue posting misleading stats just to try to "win" an argument, that's your right.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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explain to us how 2 NCAAT in 9 years is misleading
Mar 25, 2019, 2:21 PM
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but arguing that it's "not what it seems b/c the NIT and NCAAT is harder to get into now" is not misleading...
Which one is fact?
Compare the ACC SOS numbers of his tenure vs. those guys. You would be surprised.
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All-In [43989]
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Do you not agree that the NIT is harder to get into now?
Mar 25, 2019, 2:29 PM
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In 2006 it was reduced from 40 teams to 32 teams. In 2007, mid-major teams who won their regular season but not their conference tournament got an automatic bid. This has resulted in as many as 15 automatic bids some years since then. I posted in detail how several of our prior NIT bids under Ellis, Barnes, and Purnell wouldn't have occurred under the new NIT selection criteria and number of at-large bids.
There is nothing misleading about this.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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it's not harder... as a major school in a major conference
Mar 25, 2019, 2:32 PM
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You still have to be really bad to miss the NIT... period. Good teams from Power conferences aren't missing out on the NIT b/c of this.
Why is the NIT an indicator of success. You have chosen this mountain to defend Brownell. Why? Is it b/c he has missed postseason all-together in 4 of his 9 years?
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All-In [43989]
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I'm not making the NIT a marker of success. You did.
Mar 25, 2019, 2:38 PM
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You repeatedly said over the past week that "Brownell only made the postseason 5 of his 9 years here." You decided to include both NCAA and NIT appearances as the measuring stick, not me.
I don't think NITs should be used as a barometer, but since you brought it up, we should make sure to view it in context.
Bottom line: using the old NIT system when Ellis, Barnes, Shyatt, and Purnell coached at Clemson, Brad would've only missed the postseason one year here.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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Would you rather me say that he only made the NCAAT
Mar 25, 2019, 2:41 PM
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2 in 9 years...
and one was with OP's guys, who you discredit.
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Starter [386]
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"Clemson is viewed as a stepping stone job"
Mar 25, 2019, 12:54 PM
[ in reply to I want to build a sustainable program. ] |
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Why do you keep saying that? In my lifetime we lost Barnes, who apparently had other issues not related to wanting a more lucrative gig, and Purnell, who left because he couldn't take things any further. He failed at Depaul..hardly a step up.
There's simply no reason we can't expect to hire a guys and keep him. If he wins, he's in the best basketball conference in America. NO need to go anywhere else.
Sorry, but Brad Brownell is not that guy. We dhouldn't be hanging on to him for the reason, "we can't do any better". That's hogwash. And the admin is NOT holding us back ion any way, other than needing to make a better hire than Brownell.
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All-In [43989]
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Let me give you a brief history of Clemson basketball.
Mar 25, 2019, 2:09 PM
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Our winning percentage throughout our program is .504 overall, and .378 in conference.
I think we would all agree that prior to Brownell, the only coaches who have had any success were Tates Locke, Bill Foster, Cliff Ellis, Rick Barnes, and Oliver Purnell.
Tates Locke and Cliff Ellis both cheated, resulting in NCAA sanctions and forfeiture of victories.
Bill Foster left Clemson to be the head coach at Miami. They didn't even have a basketball program at that time, having discontinued basketball in 1970. But Foster felt that it would be a better situation to restart a program rather than stay at Clemson.
After just a few NCAA Tournament appearances, Rick Barnes left for Texas, and Oliver Purnell left for DePaul. Both got a substantial raises in the process, as well as the promise of more administrative support. Clemson wanted to keep both coaches, but neither was interested in even giving Clemson a chance to keep them.
It's funny how the rumors persist to this day that both left because they were caught having affairs. I have no way of knowing if that is true, but we do know that both left for schools who paid them more money and provided better support. If you haven't noticed, that is a pattern for our men's basketball program.
We need to accept the fact that Clemson is not viewed in a favorable light by potential coaches. They are concerned about the support for the program (or lack thereof), which is why all of our successful coaches who won the right way have left on their own accord, not even interested in staying at Clemson. We have to change that perception before we hire our next coach.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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are you willing to acknowledge the fact that OP and Barnes
Mar 25, 2019, 2:19 PM
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had more success than Brownell, with LESS support?
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All-In [43989]
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I think they had more success in terms of making the
Mar 25, 2019, 2:25 PM
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NCAA Tournament. That isn't debatable.
What is debatable is the eras in which they coached, especially as it relates to facilities. Barnes coached before facilities became a "thing." Purnell got to show off a brand new practice facility and weight room, as well as improvements to Littlejohn, when he took over. Those improvements were not meaningful by the time Brad took over, and in fact, they hurt us as the importance of new facilities continued to occur.
Brad has only arguably had better support the last 2-3 seasons, which resulted in a Sweet 16 team and an NCAA bubble team.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: are you willing to acknowledge the fact that OP and Barnes
Mar 25, 2019, 2:42 PM
[ in reply to are you willing to acknowledge the fact that OP and Barnes ] |
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How about we play the:
How many seasons did Brad have a better record and get left out that when Ellis & Barnes made it in.
Brad has had 4 season of 20 wins and .500 in conference. 2 NCAA appearances.
Ellis had 1 NCAA bids with fewer than 20 wins and at/sub .500 conference records. +1 he had to vacate another.
Barnes had 2 NCAA bids with fewer than 20 wins and at/sub .500 conference records
Even when Brad only makes the NIT, his seasons were often better than some of our NCAA years.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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You have to look at the wins during those years, which I
Mar 25, 2019, 2:50 PM
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have already pointed out.
BB has won 11 games in 7 years over ACC teams that finished above .500 in an expanded ACC. That is why he missed the NCAAT those years.
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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That is a simple obvious concept that they either cannot
Mar 25, 2019, 3:24 PM
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understand or simply refuse to admit.
The NCAA Tournament Selection Committee lets you know at the end of each year how impressive your conference records was. Over the last 9 years, they seem to think that it hasn't been all that. I tend to agree with them over the hand full of fans on this board that argue otherwise.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: You have to look at the wins during those years, which I
Mar 25, 2019, 3:58 PM
[ in reply to You have to look at the wins during those years, which I ] |
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And I pointed out
He is still winning more than Barnes. BB has 1.9 wins per season over .500+ teams than Barnes 1.75.
Rick Barnes had 7 wins in 4 years. He was 7-23 against team above .500 in ACC play.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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Then why aren't Brad's 11 wins in seven years getting him
Mar 25, 2019, 4:08 PM
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into the NCAAT?
Barnes played in a tougher ACC, which was not expanded and you played everyone twice. It was not as watered down.
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All-In [43989]
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He literally just showed you the stats about Brownell
Mar 25, 2019, 4:11 PM
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having more wins each year over teams with .500 or better records than Barnes did. Yet you continue to maintain that Barnes had it worse and did better than Brad in terms of who he beat.
Maybe it's actually harder to get into the NCAAs now?
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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the ACC was more difficult... and the NCAAT has now
Mar 25, 2019, 4:45 PM
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expanded
If not for expansion, BB would only have ONE NCAAT appearance. Are you sure you want to argue this point?
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All-In [43989]
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You can say all you want about the ACC being more difficult
Mar 25, 2019, 7:47 PM
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but as FutureDoc posted above, Brownell averages more wins per year against teams > .500 than Barnes did.
With 7-9 ACC records not being nearly good enough today, Rick Barnes would've had just one NCAA Tournament appearance when he was our coach.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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Why is that? Teams got in this year at 7-11
Mar 25, 2019, 8:11 PM
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Why would that not be good enough. The SOS in the ACC was stronger under Barnes than it has been under Shyatt. The same is true for OP... The SOS in conference was stronger
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Starter [386]
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So in the entire history of Clemson basketball, you can only come up
Mar 25, 2019, 8:06 PM
[ in reply to Let me give you a brief history of Clemson basketball. ] |
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with 3 coaches who left for greener pastures? Bill Foster, okay whatever, he's real relevant to today, but I'll give you him. I'll give you Barnes, but I will not concede Purnell who left for...Depaul. Thats not a step up.
So with only 2 coaches who used as a stepping stone, your motion is denied. So please stop saying it. Its lame.
There's absolutely no reason we cant expect to get a guy here who can sustain success. Who wouldn't want to do that in the best basketball coach conference in America.
9 years. No excuses.
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CU Guru [1027]
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be nice to have a coach someone wants
Mar 25, 2019, 11:43 AM
[ in reply to That depends, will they be able to sustain their success ] |
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Cheap shot. Sorry.
I suppose if we had continued success, we’d likely have the resources and environment to keep a coach.
Possible that this is still a resume builder job but current perceptions of Clemson may have changed particularly with the updated facilities.
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Oculus Spirit [79932]
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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What determines "sustained success" and who is responsible?
Mar 25, 2019, 1:25 PM
[ in reply to That depends, will they be able to sustain their success ] |
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BB came in and took us to the NCAAT - the 4th in a row. That is pretty darn successful. We did not go back for SEVEN years.
At what point is it on him for not sustaining that success? OP came in after Shyatt and improved us every year, resulting in 3 straight NCAAT appearances. Why does the "not sustaining that" not fall on BB's shoulders?
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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Brad and Terry Don agreed that Clemson was NOT a rebuilding
Mar 25, 2019, 1:36 PM
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project at the press conference after his hiring.
Brad Brownell walked into the best coaching situation of any of our basketball coaching hires.
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All-In [43989]
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Then Brad got here and realized that there were some
Mar 25, 2019, 2:19 PM
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major issues within the program that he was not aware of. He has mentioned this several times since being hired.
I know it is easier to keep saying "Brad inherited a team from Purnell that went to three straight NCAA Tournaments," but that only tells part of the story.
Keep believing that Clemson is a great basketball job with tons of support from the admin and fans, and all we need is an energetic coach who recruits well and inspires the fans. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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First- the Barnes and OP teams EARNED that fan support
Mar 25, 2019, 2:25 PM
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BB's has not
2nd - are you now saying that "well, BB didn't think it was a rebuild, then he got here and saw it was". Is that your argument now?
Why couldn't he ride the previous 3 NCAAT appearances and his (our 4th straight) to better recruiting. Why?
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All-In [43989]
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Clemson fans' support of basketball shouldn't be contingent
Mar 25, 2019, 2:35 PM
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upon a style of play that appeals to them. It should be based upon supporting Clemson basketball because it's one of two revenue-generating sports on campus, and one which represents our university well since Brownell took over.
Yes, I do believe the behind-the-scenes issues Brownell had to contend with (and has since fixed) played a role in us not continuing our NCAA run, but I don't think that explains things fully. Purnell's recruiting misses hurt a lot too, as evidenced by years 2 and 3 under Brownell being a drop-off.
Plus, Brad didn't recruit well his first few years here. I think that was partly because the jump from mid-major to high major is really hard (which is why our next coach should be someone who has done it on the high major level) combined with our outdated facilities. This compounded the problem that Purnell left him. I don't think Brad is a great recruiter, but I also don't think he is a bad one either.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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who said it was contingent on a style of play? Who? Not me
Mar 25, 2019, 2:38 PM
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They earned it by WINNING. They WON. OP got better every year, culminating in 3 NCAAT appearances. Barnes went to 3 in 4 years.
The fans came b/c they WON.
Did you just blame BB's year 3 on OP's recruiting. Really? I'm pretty sure you just said that.
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All-In [43989]
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And they don't support Brownell when he wins.
Mar 25, 2019, 2:42 PM
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As evidenced by poor fan attendance in 2018-2019, despite us having one of our best seasons ever last year and being ranked in the preseason top 25. Fan excitement should've been at an all-time high, with attendance numbers to prove it. But it wasn't.
The reason I see repeatedly posted here for that is because Brad runs a boring style of offense. That reason is posted over and over, because most people are unwilling to admit that Clemson fans aren't very good at supporting basketball.
This is when you say something like, "but students camped out for tickets every game when Barnes and Purnell were here, and we sold out every game!"
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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That is a result of consistency. You can't have it both ways
Mar 25, 2019, 2:46 PM
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Brownell's tenure has been full of "almosts". We had a great year last year. But you can't continue your argument about Clemson being a "football school", and not acknowledge the cumulative effect BB's tenure has had on fans. Period.
Students camped out in the Barnes era (I was one), b/c of the cumulative and ongoing success he had. Same for OP.
NIT, NCAA, NCAA, NCAA is consistency and produces support
NIT, NIT, NIT, NCAA, NCAA, NCAA is consistency and produces support
NCAA, None, None, NIT, None, None, NIT, NCAA, NIT IS NOT CONSISTENCY, and the fans support tells the tale
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All-In [43989]
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I'm not trying to have it both ways.
Mar 25, 2019, 2:54 PM
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There was no reason for fans to expect a disappointing year this year when they decided not to support this basketball team well.
It would be one thing if we were a losing team, but we haven't had a losing record in a long time. We are consistently competitive and play hard. Fans should support that.
Unfortunately, based on your example it seems that many of our fans expect us to make several NCAA Tournaments in a row before they will show up consistently. And that is why our fans don't provide very good support for basketball.
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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The ambivalence of the fan base continues to grow.
Mar 25, 2019, 2:54 PM
[ in reply to That is a result of consistency. You can't have it both ways ] |
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No matter what the apologists and excuse mongers say. The fact remains, Brad is having a hard time building enthusiasm for the product he is putting on the floor.
You can't beat the fans over the heads and scream "you have to be better fans!" You have to give them something that will get them in the seats. They aren't getting it.
This isn't rocket science.
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All-In [43989]
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It's funny to look at how fan expectations have changed.
Mar 25, 2019, 3:03 PM
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When Rick Barnes was the coach, and fan enthusiasm was high, we played a much more boring style of basketball than we do now. We slowed the game down to a snail's pace to milk the shot clock. We focused on defense. And fans showed up, even during Barnes' first couple of years before any success was sustained.
Now it seems that fans expect more to justify spending the time and money to show up. We don't play nearly the slow, methodical grind-it-out style we played under Barnes. Maybe our expectations were lower then. Or perhaps there are a lot more distractions today. It still doesn't explain why our fans don't support basketball better, especially this year coming off of a Sweet 16 team and a lot of returning starters back.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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Barnes was a new coach, coming off success at Providence
Mar 25, 2019, 3:22 PM
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and was IMMEDIATELY successful here-- that's why fans showed up
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Barnes was a new coach, coming off success at Providence
Mar 25, 2019, 4:00 PM
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And was coming off of Ellis with relative but crooked success 10 years into the 64 team expansion.
Plus, what was the football record at that time?
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Scout Team [166]
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Who will they hire in Blacksburg?
Mar 25, 2019, 11:51 AM
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Buzz is leaving Blacksburg after this season. It will be interesting to see who they hire and provide some insight regarding the cash needed for a solid new coach. Chris Mack is knocking out about 4 million at Louisville. I will be interested to see what the Hokies will pay.
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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Someone better? What a great problem to have.
Mar 25, 2019, 11:55 AM
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Your basketball team is so consistently successful so quickly that you have a coach other teams want. Sure beats the alternative.
Should be easier to get a new coach with all of the success they have been having.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Someone better? What a great problem to have.
Mar 25, 2019, 12:00 PM
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You kinda missed the point.
Successful programs don't lose coaches, or do so very rarely.
Do you want to roll the dice every 3-5 years on a new coach? For every Buzz, they have a James Johnson or Bobby Hussey (former Shyatt assistant).
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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I would much rather have VT's "problem" and the success
Mar 25, 2019, 12:12 PM
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VT has enjoyed over the last 5 years than the last 9 years of our basketball program. I would much rather be looking for a new coach after 4 straight years of NCAA Tournament appearances and a Sweet 16 appearance than where we are today. However, unlike you, I think Clemson is a much better destination than you do and we should make every effort to attract and keep a winner. Fear of keeping a winner shouldn't prevent us from wanting one.
Why is that so hard to understand?
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All-In [43989]
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This seems insane to me.
Mar 25, 2019, 12:40 PM
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So rather than look at why we have rarely had successful coaches, and have never been able to keep the really successful ones from leaving us, you would rather continue doing exactly what we've always done? How's that working out for us?
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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You are arguing to keep doing what we've done the last 9 yrs
Mar 25, 2019, 12:53 PM
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We've upgraded the infrastructure. It's not working out for us. We don't have the recruiting and coaching to go along with it. Why is that so hard for you to see?
Your circular arguments and excuses for maintaining this level of mediocrity make no sense whatsoever.
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All-In [43989]
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What do you mean it's not working out?
Mar 25, 2019, 12:56 PM
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In the last two years, since we've had the new facilities and additional staff, we:
-had one of our best seasons in program history last year
-have our best recruiting class under Brownell coming in this year
I get it, this year was frustrating, but we were so very close to making it back to the NCAA Tournament if a play or two went our way. I don't view that as bad coaching as much as I do bad breaks.
If we had made the NCAA Tournament this year, would you still be so down on our program?
And no, I'm not arguing to "keep doing what we are doing." I want to see how things continue to progress now that we have some semblance of a program foundation in place from the administration. My hope is that things will continue to progress in terms of more $$ spent on basketball, to move us up from next to last in the ACC in spending.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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Why does BB get a pass for those things, but the coaches
Mar 25, 2019, 1:27 PM
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who had success before him, WITH LESS SUPPORT, get bashed for "leaving". That is insane.
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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It is not a rational argument.
Mar 25, 2019, 1:45 PM
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It is insane.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: It is not a rational argument.
Mar 25, 2019, 2:32 PM
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If you can point out a clean, respectable coach that would be willing to take Clemson that could product returns better than Brad, by all means we can and should consider it.
I would like to see who you would volunteer.
Because there are very, very few coach that are better than Brad (and doing it Cleanly) and that would accept our level of investment.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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well-- we recently hired two that did that***
Mar 25, 2019, 2:36 PM
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110%er [6825]
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Re: well-- we recently hired two that did that***
Mar 25, 2019, 4:01 PM
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who?
Mens Basketball Coaches. Name them.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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Both RB and OP produced MUCH better returns than
Mar 25, 2019, 4:11 PM
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BB has-- and they both took the job with MUCH LESS commitment from the AD
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Both RB and OP produced MUCH better returns than
Mar 25, 2019, 4:15 PM
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No current basketball coaches now.
RB wouldn't give us the time of day now, and OP is retired.
What coaches could Clemson go get right now that would be an improvement over BB and who is a clean coach. Tell me.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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I don't have that answer... but neither does anyone else
Mar 25, 2019, 4:46 PM
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RB was a risk. OP was a risk.
That's why you move on and hire.
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CU Medallion [64517]
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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What if he leaves after 5 years of NCAA Tournament trips
Mar 25, 2019, 12:19 PM
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an ACC Tournament Runner Up and a Sweet 16 or two?
Then what?
That's what I thought.
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CU Medallion [64517]
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It's better to have loved and lost...
Mar 25, 2019, 12:30 PM
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than never to have loved at all.
What makes you think he would do that? He's currently in his 18th season at Villanova.
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All-In [43989]
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CU Medallion [64517]
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I agree...he is a good one !!!***
Mar 25, 2019, 12:53 PM
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All-In [43989]
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It's not nearly as easy as you think.
Mar 25, 2019, 12:38 PM
[ in reply to Someone better? What a great problem to have. ] |
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Brownell was reportedly Clemson's fourth choice when he was hired in 2010.
The idea that a few years of success will cause coaches to start knocking down our doors to coach here is ridiculous. Remember, our reputation is that of a football school that doesn't care about basketball or support it. That narrative will have to change if we want to attract a top coach, rather than a "young up-and-comer" who has only been successful at the mid-major level.
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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Let's have some success and find out what problems it
Mar 25, 2019, 12:48 PM
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creates. We've spent a lot of money on our basketball infrastructure in the last 9 years. As Dan Radakovich said three years ago, the infrastructure is there to build a winner - "I know that we have not enjoyed the success that we desire but we are now investing in the infrastructure of the program and positive results will be expected."
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All-In [43989]
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So you don't think Brad deserves the opportunity
Mar 25, 2019, 1:45 PM
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to see what those infrastructure improvements can do? He's had three seasons with the new facility, and two with the new staff members. We have clearly seen more success on the court as well as in recruiting since then.
These changes we have made are not a magic solution which will produce results overnight.
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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After 9 years, Brad has had a fantastic opportunity which
Mar 25, 2019, 1:58 PM
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he has been handsomely rewarded for. Has Clemson ever given a basketball coach this much opportunity?
We don't owe him anything more. We don't need more information. He has proven what he can and cannot do.
Time to stop beating our heads against the wall simply hoping for better luck next year.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: After 9 years, Brad has had a fantastic opportunity which
Mar 25, 2019, 2:19 PM
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Go look at Banks' record. We can be really, really patient with a basketball coach.
We are not banging our heads against the wall. 20 wins and 9-9 is a good campaign. Not perfect but not bad either.
Brad has only had 2 years with completed facilities to work with, since that time we are 45-24 and 20-16. Before that, he had to deal with bottom barrel facilities and a construction zone. That is a very good return when we rank 14th of 15 in basketball spending.
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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You are pointing to Banks McFadden to prove your point?
Mar 25, 2019, 3:00 PM
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That pretty much sums up your argument.
OP and Rick Barnes took far less and made much more out of it. OP was here right before Brad Brownell, not 63 years ago.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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the ignoring of recent history, combined with the
Mar 25, 2019, 3:55 PM
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"they didn't win in the NCAAT" and "they left us" argument is truly incredible
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110%er [6825]
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Re: You are pointing to Banks McFadden to prove your point?
Mar 25, 2019, 4:07 PM
[ in reply to You are pointing to Banks McFadden to prove your point? ] |
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Banks was an awesome athlete, great administrator and alum.
Horrific Basketball Coach. Winning 1/3 of his games and coaching for 10 years points to that. He sums up Clemson's problem of using basketball to subsidize football. We hire assistant football coaches to coach basketball to support the football team.
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CU Medallion [64517]
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That was largely because of...
Mar 25, 2019, 1:01 PM
[ in reply to It's not nearly as easy as you think. ] |
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of the salary range Clemson was willing to pay.
There is a reason why the AD declined to comment on how much of the search was influenced by financial considerations.
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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Safe to say, we don't have those financial restrictions
Mar 25, 2019, 1:03 PM
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any longer. A lot has changed in the last 9 years.
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CU Medallion [64517]
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No we don't, but...
Mar 25, 2019, 1:05 PM
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that doesn't mean the philosophy on hiring a new coach has changed.
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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No, it doesn't. But, I think it has. It is certainly
Mar 25, 2019, 1:15 PM
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a possibility, unlike before we had the money. We are leaving too much revenue on the table with the growing ambivalence of our fan base. It's hard to argue that this ambivalence isn't growing. Every one of us probably knows some long time Clemson graduates/basketball fans that are just not as interested as they use to be.
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CU Medallion [64517]
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Hell...I'm one of them !!!***
Mar 25, 2019, 1:24 PM
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All-In [43989]
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What makes you think Clemson is willing to pay a more
Mar 25, 2019, 2:21 PM
[ in reply to That was largely because of... ] |
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competitive salary for a new coach?
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CU Medallion [64517]
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I don't think they are and therein lies the problem***
Mar 25, 2019, 4:02 PM
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CU Medallion [67659]
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Re: Who will they hire in Blacksburg?I know he is a VT rival
Mar 25, 2019, 1:07 PM
[ in reply to Who will they hire in Blacksburg? ] |
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but they should hire Corey ALexander because he seems to know everything about everything to hear him tell it .
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Is Virginia Tech a good model of what our basketball program
Mar 25, 2019, 11:54 AM
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That is a really bazaar choice. VT used to be the prime example of what NOT to do... they would waste a good ACC campaign by having the worse OOC schedule. Worse than an OP lead team.
Buzz's departure from Marquette was a bigger shocker than OP leaving Clemson. Not that many coaches are willing to leave Elite8 program for a bottom tier ACC job unless he just wanted out of Wisconsin being a Texas boy. Then again, I had family coaching that took a lesser job just to get out of Minnesota.
The other thing driving VaTech is Virginia. Wallets/support opens up when your prime rival is a top 3 team every year.
Now, if VaTech keeps him, it will be interesting as it sounds like Texas A&M will give him Jimbo money to have him.
In acc play...
Buzz is .489
Brad is .481
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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In 5 years he has surpassed Brad Brownell's 9 year tenure.
Mar 25, 2019, 12:04 PM
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With 4 tournament appearances including 3 NCAA Tournament appearances and a Sweet 16.
The NCAA Tournament committee has given you their opinion on the meaningless ACC win percentage you are hanging your Brownell hat on. They could not care less.
Given our similarities in so many areas including basketball budget, it would seem that what is going on at Virginia Tech with Buzz Williams is what we should be shooting for with our basketball program.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: In 5 years he has surpassed Brad Brownell's 9 year tenure.
Mar 25, 2019, 12:18 PM
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Virginia Tech spent nearly 10 million on its basketball program. They are almost spending DOUBLE! In comparison, we are spending 10 million more on Football than they are.
Brad did better than Buzz in his first 4 years in league play. We use league play because it is a uniform comparison against like teams.
Budgets are zero-sum, so if you want to spend more on basketball, are you willing to cut 12% of the football budget to do so? And that is just to catch up!
FYI, VaTech is spending more on Basketball than Virginia... funny factoid.
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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VT spent $9.8 million and we spent $6.3 million
Mar 25, 2019, 12:28 PM
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in 2016. However, we brought over $11 million and they brought in only $9.8 million. We are close to them in a number of ways including how much we can spend on our basketball programs, even though we COULD spend more than they do. Good point about Virginia. They would also be a good comparison program. Unfortunately, we don't compare well to them either form a performance standpoint.
The league win percentage is a relatively meaningless stat best used for comparing the level of mediocrity of teams that don't get into the tournament.
Getting to the NCAA Tournament is the only proper comparison or measure of college basketball programs.
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All-In [43989]
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No, it isn't the only point of comparison.
Mar 25, 2019, 12:42 PM
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It's your only point of comparison.
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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The NCAA Tournament tells you what you need to know
Mar 25, 2019, 1:10 PM
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about the value of your winning percentage in conference. Maybe you got to play the worst teams in the conference twice and the best teams only once.
If you don't make it in, the committee is telling you it was much ado about nothing.
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All-In [43989]
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I don't understand how NCAA Tournaments became the
Mar 25, 2019, 1:53 PM
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ultimate barometer for success, especially since the two coaches you and Snowtown hold up as amazing coaches went a combined 2-6 in the NCAA Tournament at Clemson.
If ACC record, overall record, graduation rates, team GPA, community relations, and all of the other factors on which our program is judged by DRad don't matter to you, just say so.
Do we need to make it more? Yes, we do. But please stop using Barnes and Purnell as examples of success when they only made it to the tournament three times, didn't do well there at all except for 1 season out of 6, and bailed on Clemson.
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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Facts are stubborn things. Barnes and Purnell showed us
Mar 25, 2019, 2:14 PM
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what we can do with a good coach and how quickly it can happen. Brownell is showing us what we can do with a mediocre one.
There is a growing ambivalence towards Clemson basketball. That's a fact that you don't seem to grasp. Hopefully, Dan Radakovich sees the writing on the wall and isn't simply hoping that things improve, but is actually taking real concrete steps to make it happen.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Facts are stubborn things. Barnes and Purnell showed us
Mar 25, 2019, 2:25 PM
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OP showed us that we could not compete at the national level.
Barnes showed Texas what he could do.
Funny thing. This year was better than all but one of the Barnes years. Barnes was only above .500 once in conference. Back then you could be 18-14 and 7-9 in conference and get a bid. Now you can be 23-13 and 10-8 in conference and be left out.
Growing ambivalence? That ambivalence has been there. I go to basketball games, follow basketball and dang, the Kelly Bryant got a bigger cheer at halftime than anything basketball.
DRad see the writing, you can have a sweet-sixteen team and folks don't show up to a game.
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All-In [43989]
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CU Medallion [55642]
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Buzz Williams has the "it" factor. I think Butler does too.
Mar 25, 2019, 12:27 PM
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Buzz is a lot like Dabo in that he is Christian and develops deep relationships with his players. Maybe even deeper than Dabo due to there being fewer players on the team. Watch the video of Buzz consoling his seniors at the end of the season last year. Powerful stuff.
Our own Amanda Butler has done wonders in one year at Clemson. Ugly Ducklings yo!
These coaches have the "it" factor. They're all different but the commonality is great relationships with their players and a strong focus on player development.
It is what allows these coaches to win in less-than-ideal environments.
We need a coach like that for MBB. I think Brownell tries, but it may be one of those things you either have or you don't.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Buzz Williams has the "it" factor. I think Butler does too.
Mar 25, 2019, 12:39 PM
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At the end of the Wichita State game, you saw the same connection with the players and Brad. This season didn't go as planned but the players never quit and Brad called a TO to get all the seniors in and give them their curtain call.
It would be interesting to see what would have happened to Dabo if he started his career at "Duke" or similar level P5 program.
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CU Medallion [58367]
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Our expectation should be to be better than we
Mar 25, 2019, 12:48 PM
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traditionally have been. And that is very realistic.
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All-TigerNet [13035]
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I dont know how they got Buzz, but if we actually have somebody of that
Mar 25, 2019, 12:48 PM
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caliber willing to take the Clemson job then I'm much, much more in favor of parting ways with Brad.
Buzz made the tournament pretty much every year at Marquette and I believe he had an E8 and several S16 finishes. And then he took what appeared to be a step down to go to VT. That's one where there's probably much more to that situation than I'm aware of, but it certainly didn't make a lot of sense on the surface.
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Commissioner [961]
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Re: Is Virginia Tech a good model of what our basketball program
Mar 25, 2019, 1:16 PM
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Last years team is a good model. Will never erase the auburn game.
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