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Yale University study on Medicare for all
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Yale University study on Medicare for all


Feb 20, 2020, 12:05 PM

published in the Journal Lancet. Both Washington Post and Lancet are subscription so I'm cutting and pasting. It's a little long but very interesting.

The highlights: It would save 68,000 lives and $450 Billion a year to Americans. Households would save $2000 a year and there would be no deductibles, premiums or copays. The savings in the billions come from, in large part, the loss of administrative costs to hospitals having to process thousands of different plans from dozens of Ins. Co.s. It also would end employer contributions completely as well as allow Medicare to negotiate drug prices with pharmaceutical companies.

The article explains it better than I, it's an interesting read:


"Here’s that Medicare-for-all study Bernie Sanders keeps bringing up
A single-payer health-care system would save more than 68,000 lives and $450 billion a year, new research shows
Add to list
Americans spend more money on health care than people in other wealthy nations, but we live shorter lives.

Feb. 20, 2020 at 9:39 a.m. EST
A new analysis published in the journal Lancet adds some empirical heft to an argument many progressives have been making for years: A national single-payer health-care system would save tens of thousands of lives each year — and hundreds of billions of dollars.

If you watched last night’s Democratic debate in Nevada you might have heard Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) cite “a major study [that] came out from Yale epidemiologist[s] in Lancet, one of the leading medical publications in the world” in support of his Medicare-for-all plan. He was talking about this study, which was just published last week.

The study’s lead author, Alison Galvani, is the director of Yale University’s Center for Infectious Disease Modeling and Analysis. The paper discloses that Galvani served as an “informal, unpaid advisor” to Sanders’s Senate office as it developed the Medicare For All Act. None of the other authors disclosed any outside or competing interests.

AD
All told, the study concludes, a single-payer system akin to Sanders’s plan would slash the nation’s health-care expenditures by 13 percent, or more than $450 billion, each year. Not only that, “ensuring health-care access for all Americans would save more than 68,000 lives.”

In their breakdown of the numbers, researchers applied the existing Medicare fee structure across the entire health-care system and found it would save about $100 billion annually. Keep in mind that this basically represents less money going to doctors and hospitals, a major sticking point for medical groups that oppose Medicare-for-all. But those declines would be more than offset by several hundred billions in savings from reduced administrative and billing costs, Galvani and her colleagues estimate. The lack of patient billing under a Medicare-for-all system would also eliminate the roughly $35 billion a year that hospitals now pay to chase down unpaid bills.

The authors estimate an additional $219 billion in savings from reduced “administrative overhead” that the current decentralized system creates, including “the elimination of redundant corporate functions and the truncation of the top-heavy salary architecture of health insurance corporations.” For instance, the plan would replace dozens of health insurance executives, many of whom make well over $20 million a year, with one administrator paid the same salary as the current Secretary of Health and Human Services.

AD
Finally, letting the national Medicare system negotiate pharmaceutical prices would save about $180 billion, according to the analysis.

Add it all up and here’s what you get: a new system that would cost about $3 trillion a year, instead of the $3.5 trillion that is being spent now.

Galvani and her colleagues estimate that to fully fund Medicare-for-all, the federal government would have to bring in an additional $773 billion a year relative to current revenue levels. They estimate this could be paid for, in part, by a 10 percent payroll tax that would bring in $436 billion annually. Given that current employer contributions to health care work out to about 12 percent of payrolls, this would still be about $100 billion less than what employers currently pay.

The remaining funding could be paid via a 5 percent tax on household income, yielding $375 billion a year. Again, with the elimination of employee contributions to existing health insurance premiums, the average household could expect to save well over $2,000 a year — and have no co-pays or deductibles to worry about.

AD
Galvani’s $3 trillion estimate is somewhat lower than the annual spending estimates produced by other observers, including the libertarian Mercatus Center ($3.3 trillion per year) and the more centrist-oriented Urban Institute ($3.4 trillion per year) and RAND Corporation ($3.9 trillion).

All of these estimates — Galvani’s included — are built on various assumptions about how costs and payments and patient behaviors would work in the real world with a Medicare-for-all plan in place: How much would doctors and hospitals actually save on administrative overhead? How many people would increase their use of medical services once they’re paid for? Would a single payer system make it easier to detect medical fraud?

Experts answer those questions differently, which is reflected in their final cost estimates. And though we can’t predict the future, we do have plenty of data on what’s happening in the American health-care system right now. Relative to people in other wealthy nations, Americans are less likely to be in good health and more likely to die of preventable causes. Our babies and mothers are more likely to die after child birth, and our lives are shorter overall.

AD
Lack of a universal health-care system means that regular medical care is unaffordable for many Americans: fully one quarter of us have put off needed care because of cost. More than 8 million Americans have started a crowdfunding campaign to pay for medical care, with approximately 1 in 5 Americans contributing to somebody else’s medical crowdfunding campaign. Ninety percent of those campaigns will fail to raise the necessary funds.

By addressing these and other problems, Galvani and her colleagues estimate that regardless of cost, Medicare-for-all would save about 69,000 lives each year. They end their paper by calling on the medical community to answer “the moral imperative to provide health care as a human right, not dependent on employment or affluence.”

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If I happen to work in a hospital or RCM firm, how much


Feb 20, 2020, 12:09 PM

money am I saving when my job is eliminated?

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Re: If I happen to work in a hospital or RCM firm, how much


Feb 20, 2020, 12:11 PM


money am I saving when my job is eliminated?




Lordy, that's lame.

I could care less how many hospital administrators get the axe if people, you know, die a lot less and live happier, healthier, longer lives...which is sort of the goal of actual medicine.

Not a jobs program for highly-paid paper pushers.

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Kind of harsh, but yea.....***


Feb 20, 2020, 12:13 PM



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lol...you have no idea how hospitals or healthcare work.


Feb 20, 2020, 12:25 PM [ in reply to Re: If I happen to work in a hospital or RCM firm, how much ]

I want to see any random hospitals KPI's go up when you eliminate all these "highly paid paper pushers".

Who do you think makes sure all the government regulations that are required, you know, actually get done?

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You'll care when all of those folks are out of work


Feb 20, 2020, 2:36 PM [ in reply to Re: If I happen to work in a hospital or RCM firm, how much ]

due to redundancies and the economy crashes.

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Its only an industry the size of the automobile industry


Feb 20, 2020, 3:45 PM

But these folks are "over paid paper pushers"..so I read in here.

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Re: If I happen to work in a hospital or RCM firm, how much


Feb 20, 2020, 12:18 PM [ in reply to If I happen to work in a hospital or RCM firm, how much ]

You're not saving, you're losing your job. In all legislation, there are winners and losers. You would lose, 330 million Americans would win. But you'd have good healthcare. Further, the vast majority of hospital workers, the clinical staff, wouldn't lose their jobs. They'd still be seeing patients.

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There are about 3.5 million people who work in RCM


Feb 20, 2020, 12:22 PM

and payment processing.

I hope they'll have good healthcare--they are going to need it when they are all unemployed.

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This is like saying we shouldn't simplify tax codes


Feb 20, 2020, 12:26 PM

because there are millions of accountants and IRS employees. We should overpay to support a bloated, unnecessary industry?

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Who do you think made the "bloated, unnecessary industry"?


Feb 20, 2020, 12:27 PM

THE SAME PEOPLE YOU WANT TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR HEALTHCARE

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Does the bloated tax code exist because legislators


Feb 20, 2020, 12:31 PM

randomly keep adding to it? Or because lobbyists, paid by the private sector, push (and pay) legislators to keep adding loopholes for their clients? It's a systemic problem in both cases.

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Do you think the lobbyists go away under UH?


Feb 20, 2020, 12:34 PM

As far as I'm aware, govt is not taking over the research, development, and manufacturing of medical goods.

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No, but the insurance industry would.


Feb 20, 2020, 12:51 PM

For all the bitching we do about how inefficient government is, why are you ok with 40 cents of every dollar you pay in health insurance premiums going to insurance company administration costs and $22M executive bonuses? Just because it's "not government"? I mean...ok, I guess?

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I'm not OK with it, I think it's ######


Feb 20, 2020, 1:03 PM

But I don't think it's very difficult to see that Universal Healthcare would take this already ###### system, and put it on steroids down the same path.

I tend to think that the consolidation of hospitals and growth of bureaucracy in healthcare is part of the problem. There are a lot of ways to reduce costs, but getting government more involved sure as #### isn't one of them, evidence of which can be found in anything they get their fingers into.

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Ok then what's the solution on your side of the fence?***


Feb 20, 2020, 1:05 PM



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I like your funny words magic man


There isn't a one sized fits all solution


Feb 20, 2020, 1:19 PM

I think hospitals in general need complete restructuring. You shouldn't be sending a cancer patient through the ER before their oncologist can see them, that is asinine. Part of the problem is the consolidation of hospitals and smaller practices, which I know is largely done to reduce costs. Seems like the insurance companies and government drive a lot of the administrative costs though.

I've been in hospitals a lot over the past year, and have varying opinions on what should be done. Personally, I see it going to #### pretty fast. These doctors and nurses are basically robots, there is no critical thinking involved, they're basically running off of a ######. You get a few that are willing to use their brain, but its rare. I think that's largely due to the bureaucratic state we find out healthcare system in, which would only get worse under a government system.

However, we generally do still get the treatment that's best for the individual. You'll have to battle with insurance and hospital billing after the fact, but you get what you need. Because it's up to you to deal with insurance, the doctors DGAF. Put govt in charge and I foresee that freedom going away.

I haven't typed everything up into a formal plan for you yet though.

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So one of your solutions would be to get rid of insurance


Feb 20, 2020, 1:23 PM

all together.

Medical facilities will have to cut costs and prices and restructure.

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I like your funny words magic man


Where did I say that?


Feb 20, 2020, 1:28 PM

Health insurance is necessary, but it's out of control. I don't think you should be using health insurance for say, an $80 eye exam, why do they even need to be involved in that? It's overused IMO.

People without insurance or who can't pay shouldn't be denied care, but they shouldn't be clogging up the pipeline at the same facility I'm at paying $1k a month. Let them have their government healthcare in another facility somewhere else. I could get on board with that.

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I know you didn't say that. I was throwing out


Feb 20, 2020, 1:31 PM

an opposing viewpoint.

So you would be fine with a medicare for all plus a private plan option?

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I like your funny words magic man


I don't know, I go back and forth


Feb 20, 2020, 1:41 PM

The reality is, anything 'free' is going to be abused in this country. Would medicare for all become a bottomless money pit, even with the existence of a private plan option? Probably. But to benefit the middle class I think you've got to separate the non-payers.

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That's exactly what would happen. It already has


Feb 20, 2020, 1:53 PM

Again, from wiki:

Free-market advocates claim that the health care system is "dysfunctional" because the system of third-party payments from insurers removes the patient as a major participant in the financial and medical choices that affect costs. The Cato Institute claims that because government intervention has expanded insurance availability through programs such as Medicare and Medicaid, this has exacerbated the problem.[98] According to a study paid for by America's Health Insurance Plans (a Washington lobbyist for the health insurance industry) and carried out by PriceWaterhouseCoopers, increased utilization is the primary driver of rising health care costs in the U.S.[99] The study cites numerous causes of increased utilization, including rising consumer demand, new treatments, more intensive diagnostic testing, lifestyle factors, the movement to broader-access plans, and higher-priced technologies.[99] The study also mentions cost-shifting from government programs to private payers. Low reimbursement rates for Medicare and Medicaid have increased cost-shifting pressures on hospitals and doctors, who charge higher rates for the same services to private payers, which eventually affects health insurance rates.

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Where are you getting that number from?


Feb 20, 2020, 1:36 PM [ in reply to No, but the insurance industry would. ]



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That last sentence though.


Feb 20, 2020, 1:41 PM

Who cares what entertainers and athletes make? They make what consumers who CHOOSE to consume their services will pay them. How much choice do you have in consuming insurance? Which 8 figure CEO you choose?

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Re: That last sentence though.


Feb 20, 2020, 1:48 PM



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I think you're forgetting the context of the conversation.


Feb 20, 2020, 2:43 PM

This isn't an indictment of capitalism or CEO compensation. We're talking about a specific industry, and the costs that drive it. Name another industry in which a significant portion of the population believes there is an obligation to provide at least minimal components of that good/service to the least of the population who couldn't afford it otherwise. That's your baseline for this conversation, and the reason we start pulling apart all of the cost components, including CEO salaries of for-profit insurance companies that own a VERY significant percentage of the cost of healthcare, and the reason we're debating the necessity of their existence. Every one of those CEOs will have a comfy landing spot in another industry, and by and large, I'll make the CHOICE whether to consume their products at that point.

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Re: I think you're forgetting the context of the conversation.


Feb 20, 2020, 3:35 PM



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The same was said of the gas/oil/energy industry when gas


Feb 20, 2020, 3:46 PM [ in reply to I think you're forgetting the context of the conversation. ]

got up to $4-$5/gallon in the 2007-2008.

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Re: Where are you getting that number from?


Feb 20, 2020, 1:42 PM [ in reply to Where are you getting that number from? ]

Insurance premiums are not regulated at all. Insurance Co's are free to charge anything they want. And insurance companies enjoy an exception to the Sherman Antitrust Laws so they are free to collude and fix prices. That why premium differences between carriers are marginal at best.

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Felix are you serious?


Feb 20, 2020, 1:53 PM



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Re: Felix are you serious?


Feb 20, 2020, 2:35 PM

T3, my job WAS to negotiate reimbursement rates for a Dental Practice that had 70 dentists and 30 locations. Insurance in NC is regulated, but their premiums are not. For example, remember the Congressional Hearing in 2012 I think when BCBS of CA. raised there premiums 36%? They held the hearing precisely because no one could stop them. They're private companies, they can charge what they want. Trust me on this one. I also negotiated the health insurance plan for the practice. We paid approx. $1 million in premiums the previous year and they paid out approx. $700,000 in claims. So they proposed a 28% rate increase. I told them they'd lost their minds and we were switching insurance co.'s. Our agent sent our census out to 5 different carriers. They all came back within $22 of each other for a base single employee policy. The base policy is that from which the rest of the plan family, single-one child etc, is based on. True story.

And if the Reps have been trying to do away with artificial state line requirements, why didn't they do it when they held the house, senate and white house for 2 years?
They didn't touch it because they take as much as the Dems from the carriers and healthcare. The whole system has been setup for decades.

That's why we pay more than anyone in the world. It is a legislatively fixed game. And it's not going to change until you get money out of Washington or profit incentive out of actual health care.

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Re: Felix are you serious?


Feb 20, 2020, 2:54 PM



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Re: Felix are you serious?


Feb 20, 2020, 3:58 PM

T3Tiger said:

For one thing, dental insurance is a completely different animal from health insurance as most dental plans barely cover anything, much less anything of significant cost.

All insurers have rate filings that are approved or not by state insurance departments, even in NC. Those rate filings are based on what their claim experience has been and projected to be as well as what they expect their premium income and investment earnings to be. Yes, built into that is SOME profit goal as well as mandatory capital requirements.

Blaming insurance for rising healthcare costs is like blaming your mortgage for housing prices going up or blaming your variable rate mortgage when interest rates go up.




We'll agree to disagree on this subject. However, if you can't blame insurance carriers, explain to me why Cigna's stock price skyrocketed 1100% within 5 years of the introduction of Obamacare? When Obamacare was enacted, hospitals and providers started seeing more patients, that's Economics 101. Higher demand, higher cost. Unfortunately, there was also a component of gouging that has taken place that is unprecedented by both healthcare providers and health insurance co.s.

My 16 yr old son had a seizure in in high school 2 years ago. My wife and I rushed to the school to watch him seizing, unconscious and being loaded into an ambulance. At that moment you don't think of insurance, you only think "please". He survived with no permanent injury, thank God.

Unfortunately, the ambulance took him to a hospital that wasn't in-network with our insurance provider Cigna. They sent me a bill for $35,000 for a 4 day stay. That's gouging.

If you jack up the price of plywood when a hurricane is coming that's a federal crime. If you jack up the price of healthcare when someone is at their most vulnerable it's called capitalism. It's bogus. Human life should not have a price tag on it.

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Re: Felix are you serious?


Feb 20, 2020, 4:51 PM



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Re: Felix are you serious?


Mar 18, 2020, 4:44 PM [ in reply to Re: Felix are you serious? ]

Felix, I sent some T-mails to you so we can discuss issues. :)

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Re: Felix are you serious?


Mar 18, 2020, 4:42 PM [ in reply to Re: Felix are you serious? ]

Hey Feliz, sooo, you worked with dentists, not MDs?

The US is number one in the world (nobody close) in the treatment of stroke, heart disease/ attacks, cancer, high blood pressure, psychiatric disease and what is known as 'responsiveness', that is, prompt attention to all, regardless of their circumstances. We lead the world in the major category of shortest wait times to treatment and, accordingly, in medical outcomes. Nobody is close.

BTW, how often do you hear about Saudi kings flying into France, the UK, etc for major health care?

WHO called France the BEST HC system in the world a few years back!! We were rated 37th! That was just, and still is, political BS and jealousy of the US health care. Even WHO admitted they didn't use proper stats and too much extrapolation and were overly biased against the US.

Sooo, you worked with dentists, not MDs?

The US is number one in the world (nobody close) in the treatment of stroke, heart disease/ attacks, cancer, high blood pressure, psychiatric disease and what is known as 'responsiveness', that is, prompt attention to all, regardless of their circumstances. We lead the world in the major category of shortest wait times to treatment and, accordingly, in medical outcomes. Nobody is close.

******The main reason our life expectancy figures are lower than other developed countries: our POOR LIFESTYLES.
Smoking, obesity, violence, suicides, drugs, poverty, excessive alcohol consumption. There are NO studies to suggest that our health care system
is the culprit. A study from a few years ago suggested strongly that if ANY other health care system took care of our population, our health care stats would be ~40% worse. We have the best hospitals, best medical schools, best doctors and brightest minds, especially in the medical research sector. Med. for All would kill innovation and make us sicker as a nation.

Bottom line: MFA produces poor quality care---> long wait times, poorer outcomes and government inefficiency at its finest.

A piece I wrote recently:

Medicare for all would mean 'harsh realities'

Surprisingly being overlooked about the Medicare for All issues are the harsh realities that would come to bare on all Americans. "Sounds good, smells bad" comes to mind.

There would be 329 million Americans vying for doctors that would even take Medicare. Taxes would skyrocket, especially for the middle class (thanks Warren/ Sanders). Wait times ( access) to see your doctor would increase, in some cases approaching months. As a result, medical outcomes would suffer and general health would deteriorate. Innovation ( miracle drugs) would suffer without incentives to produce them. Most importantly, a bottom line bureaucrat, instead of your doctor, will decide if you can be treated with treatment X, where it will happen, how it will happen and what will be used ( ie. the cheapest prosthesis). In other words, your doctor will no longer be able to advocate effectively for you, which is an intrusion upon the Hippocratic Oath (First, do no harm).

I favor a two tier system with MFA, but a private option for those that want better care, similar to the British NHS. I have studied the Canadian system ( and 11 European systems) extensively and in no way should we go that way. Their wait times and outcomes would not be acceptable to Americans, regardless of what uninformed, biased politicians tell you.

*****I spent four months in the care of the British NHS in 2012 when I donated a kidney (left one!)( May 25, 2012) to a close friend at Coventry University Hospital. I saw the NHS up close.I had NO idea how bad it would be. Outdated equipment and hospitals, embarrassing infection control, poorly trained doctors (mostly 8-5ers, working for The Man (the NHS monolith in London) and not the least bit passionate about medicine. They even went on STRIKE for several days while I was there--the entire medical community! They do have private hospitals that appear to be top notch, but still with the same doctors. My recipient died within two months due to flat out incompetence (they missed a simple bladder infection in an immune-suppressed patient---the renal vein clotted and the kidney died immediately). That doesn't happen in America. That's malpractice.






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That's like 1-in-50 of all workers in the US... That just


Feb 20, 2020, 12:28 PM [ in reply to There are about 3.5 million people who work in RCM ]

shows the largesse of the problem.

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I'm not sure how many times I can say this.


Feb 20, 2020, 12:29 PM

Maybe you'll figure it out.

https://www.tigernet.com/forum/message/Who-do-you-think-made-the-bloated-unnecessary-industry-26906054

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Re: There are about 3.5 million people who work in RCM


Feb 21, 2020, 4:43 PM [ in reply to There are about 3.5 million people who work in RCM ]

I think you are overstating the problem,but let's consider your point.

Are you suggesting that all of us should continue with more expensive, less effective health care to avoid this unemployment problem or can we work out a way to help us transition through this switch over.

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Why don't you do what you conservatives


Feb 20, 2020, 12:26 PM [ in reply to If I happen to work in a hospital or RCM firm, how much ]

tell government workers to do when Donnie was talking about slashing departments.


Go get a real job.

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I like your funny words magic man


Has government ever gotten smaller? or cheaper?***


Feb 20, 2020, 12:28 PM



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Yeah, I've got to lmao at the idea universal healthcare


Feb 20, 2020, 12:30 PM

is going to slash any sort of administration costs.

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or be better or more economical, or do anything superior


Feb 20, 2020, 12:35 PM

than what is being done now.

But somehow...the US government, with all its failures, will get this right, because Bernie's really mad during a debate.

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Medicare currently runs with an ~2% admin cost....***


Feb 21, 2020, 11:17 AM [ in reply to Yeah, I've got to lmao at the idea universal healthcare ]



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Link to that?


Feb 21, 2020, 12:58 PM

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/09/19/medicare-private-insurance-and-administrative-costs-a-democratic-talking-point/

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Re: Yeah, I've got to lmao at the idea universal healthcare


Feb 21, 2020, 4:48 PM [ in reply to Yeah, I've got to lmao at the idea universal healthcare ]

Have you looked into administrative costs of Medicare ??

Medicare spends about 2% on administrative costs vs about 16% for private insurance.

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Look man I get it.


Feb 20, 2020, 12:31 PM [ in reply to Has government ever gotten smaller? or cheaper?*** ]

You're not going to go for MC4A because it would cost you your job and you're close to retirement.

I get the same way when people start talking about school vouchers etc.

But maybe you can pull yourself up by your bootstraps and do something else for the last few years you have until retirement.

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I like your funny words magic man


I've got about 15 years until retirement.


Feb 20, 2020, 12:36 PM

Probably more than you do once you get your 20 in, amiright?

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Close. I got 20 left.***


Feb 20, 2020, 12:41 PM



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I like your funny words magic man


Did you start teaching last year?


Feb 20, 2020, 12:45 PM

Maybe you can TERI out, then come back to work. Retire again, then get a part time gig at the school system after that.

Yeah..government run healthcare is going to save us all money.

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I was the last one that got in during the 28 year


Feb 20, 2020, 12:46 PM

rule. (Can retire after 28 years).

Now it's the 90 year rule. Age and experience have to equal 90.

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I like your funny words magic man


So republicans want to downsize government and make it


Feb 20, 2020, 4:23 PM [ in reply to If I happen to work in a hospital or RCM firm, how much ]

more efficient and spend less money on “big government,” eliminating many jobs. But eliminating healthcare admins is bad... why? Because team politics

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When was the last republican you saw do that?


Feb 20, 2020, 5:29 PM

But lemme get this straight....

Drs and Physician practices are being squeezed for smaller medicare/medicaid reimbursements, and are being asked to do more with less. And much of that they have to do is due to gov't regulations.

But it's being said in P&R by many that the government can do this cheaper and better by adding even more people to the providers patients..and the gov;t will do this by eliminating the people who are making sure the current gov't regulations are being met?

I gotta see this.

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Re: When was the last republican you saw do that?


Feb 21, 2020, 4:54 PM

Ineligible,

If you will just go to the site below, scroll down to the bottom and download the curriculum, they spell out the savings in a well thought out fashion. That is unless you would rather remain ignorant and cynical.

https://djdinstitute.org/training-and-policy/

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We'd still be traveling by horse and carriage if we lived by


Mar 18, 2020, 12:32 PM [ in reply to If I happen to work in a hospital or RCM firm, how much ]

this train of thought... I don't applaud anyone losing their job but we shouldn't stunt progress for the many for the benefit of the few.

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Add this to the money that Obamacare saved us, and we are set!***


Feb 20, 2020, 12:20 PM



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null


STILL waiting for my $2500/year***


Feb 20, 2020, 12:29 PM



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Re: STILL waiting for my $2500/year***


Feb 20, 2020, 1:17 PM

Your also still waiting on the $4000 a year Trump promised as well.

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So Obama was a liar, too?


Feb 21, 2020, 3:07 PM

I think we know Trump is.

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I DON'T NEED ALL OF THOSE FANCY WORDS


Feb 20, 2020, 12:29 PM

AND NUMBERS TO TELL ME SOCIALISM IS BAD


Image result for maga hat redneck

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I like your funny words magic man


You particularly surprise me.


Feb 20, 2020, 12:33 PM

I don't know how much money you make, but from what you've described, it doesn't sound earth shatteringly high. Why do I say this?

Because you openly say you want higher taxes (something you can't control) to provide for what you think will be better healthcare (something you can control--your own health), provided by an organization (our government) who has never been economical or good stewards of any resource they have ever been in charge of.

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I'm particularly surprised that it works in


Feb 20, 2020, 12:43 PM

every single modern country on earth but over here in the US it will cause death and destruction to babies and puppies.

Give me a break.

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I like your funny words magic man


By that logic, I should also have the brand new F-250


Feb 20, 2020, 12:46 PM

Platinum and $250k boat that my single 35 year old neighbor has, despite having a child and stay at home wife. WHY WOULDN'T IT WORK FOR ME?!?

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If healthcare were a luxury your reasoning would


Feb 20, 2020, 12:48 PM

be sound.

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It's the same principle


Feb 20, 2020, 12:51 PM

I've got 3 people and two dogs to take care of, he's got 1 person. Our situations aren't the same. At all.

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I don't agree with that. You can't buy your way out of


Feb 20, 2020, 12:56 PM

illness.

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In a lot of cases you can***


Feb 20, 2020, 1:06 PM



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Then buy my teenage son a way out of


Feb 20, 2020, 3:34 PM

his terminal illness.

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Wasn't your daughter also suffering from a life threatening


Feb 20, 2020, 4:01 PM

illness

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Don't have daughter.***


Feb 20, 2020, 4:40 PM



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Sorry, I must have you confused with someone else.***


Feb 20, 2020, 5:23 PM



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You are old. ;)***


Feb 20, 2020, 5:25 PM



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Without knowing what exactly he's got, you may not be


Feb 20, 2020, 4:17 PM [ in reply to Then buy my teenage son a way out of ]

able to buy a cure, but there's a chance you can buy a longer life for him. Experimental drug trials, freedom to hop from say, MD Anderson to Emory....You think you'd get that kind of freedom under a govt system?

Regardless, the point of my original post remains....You can't look around at other countries and say "see, they're doing it!!" and not take into consideration the fact that they have wildly different circumstances.

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You're not looking at the crux of the issue. Cost.


Feb 20, 2020, 5:25 PM

We've been there, done all that to the tune of over $500K, insurance picking and choosing what they want to cover because their statistics don't apply to us. Of course we're going to spend any amount we have to help him go as far as he can, but when BCBS says, hmmmmm, ya know we don't think that post surgery MRI was necessary, so we're not covering that. Or, the surgeon used an unapproved device to treat your child, we can't cover that...60K, gone. You'd be amazed at what they decide not to cover when you're already max out of pocket for the year. We're not bankrupt because I did well early in my career and saved aggressively before the kids were born, but BCBS is determined to extract every bit of it from me. Want to sue BCBS? Good luck with that.

I don't advocate for free medical care, I do advocate for not allowing insurance companies to pick and choose who they b u t t r a p e. So, I can in truth, look at other countries with universal/single payer/govt healthcare and say, "see, they're doing it". My kid would have a better quality of life in many of those countries. It is a complete falsehood to think that we have the "best" quality healthcare in the world, that is some BS through and through.

No amount of money will buy him a cure, but we can buy him freedom and we do. Left untreated, he wouldn't be here. So, I would like a healthcare system that accounts for situations like this. Money or death, it's an easy decision to make. But our healthcare system would rather benefit hospitals systems, insurance companies, and drug/device makers; making me pay the price for their bloat. Think of all the fat effers on disability that can't make it out of their houses....thats nothing compared to the over-bloated out of control insurance companies and hospital systems. That's what is killing our healthcare system.

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Interesting your doc went ahead and used something that


Feb 20, 2020, 5:32 PM

wasn't approved by BCBS, but SOLOS® doc stopped half way through a surgery to NOT give him a stent because he didn't meet the BCBS reqs on arterial blockages.

Two men say they're Jesus, one of them MUST be wrong.

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Really IE?


Feb 20, 2020, 6:04 PM

You can’t imagine a fat bloated POS company like BCBS could eff something up and blame somebody else and make their customer pay for it? Or are you so Trumpy that you always side with the fat POS in any scenario?

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What does what BCBS does have anything to do with Trump?***


Feb 20, 2020, 6:06 PM



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I’m jerkin you’re chain with the trump thing


Feb 20, 2020, 6:08 PM

Cause he’s a notable fat bloated POS

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This is a liberal thing, isn't it?


Feb 20, 2020, 6:13 PM

I noticed that twice this morning FBcooch alluded to something about "pulling myself up by my bootstraps" or something that I saw AOC whining about this week.

I've mentioned one thing regarding politics today in a non-healthcare related post, but you and fbcooch bring it up and insert it where it wasn't before.

Just an observation.

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oh, I’m anything but a liberal. Just no reason the let


Feb 20, 2020, 6:22 PM

the fat bloated POS analogy go to waste.

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...and the old crack was a joke. Hence the ?? thing


Feb 20, 2020, 6:07 PM [ in reply to Interesting your doc went ahead and used something that ]

But I might add crotchety.

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Re: You're not looking at the crux of the issue. Cost.


Feb 20, 2020, 6:42 PM [ in reply to You're not looking at the crux of the issue. Cost. ]



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So fix the problem instead of allowing companies to


Feb 20, 2020, 8:13 PM

profit from chronic and terminal illness. Government is FOR the people, not for corporations! Get it right and stop bankrupting families to benefit fat bloated POS companies. BCBS has 92% of the market in AL, why in the heck are they adverting on TV and web about how gushy and wonderful they are when you’re sick?

I’m well aware of diabetes and similar illnesses that suck the life out people and the healthcare system, yet our government does nothing to improve it. Tiggity has talked about this extensively. Why are we subsidizing companies that profit from production of unhealthy foods?

My kid did nothing wrong, he’s handled what God gave him with amazing grace (intentional). This is where policy has a face. As it stands, the US govt would rather let companies make a killing off of his suffering than help him live. So eff that and the people that support it a hundred times over.

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Re: So fix the problem instead of allowing companies to


Feb 21, 2020, 11:52 AM

My wife’s mother had a terminal illness and Medicaid paid for everything. Medicaid covers children to. If your child has a terminal illness Medicaid covers it. My children have Medicaid. Maybe I’m missing something but there is already free healthcare for those that need it. I don’t have healthcare because I’m healthy and live a healthy lifestyle, if something unexpected happens, I’ll just have to pay for it over time, and I’m fine with that. I haven’t been to the hospital for myself since I got a physical in highschool. I’m 30. I believe many people got to the dr and er when they really don’t need to. My wife used to go everyone she got sick. Thats how her family did things. I made her realize going to the dr for every cold and stomach bug, could actually make her sick

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I agree a lot of that, but cannot understand why you think


Feb 21, 2020, 9:34 AM [ in reply to You're not looking at the crux of the issue. Cost. ]

a govt single payer system in this country would solve any of those issues. All evidence points to them making the bloat much, much worse.

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I'm sure you can find articles on how big of a mess


Feb 21, 2020, 12:26 PM

single payer/universal/MC4A would be, however, in the context of the recent Yale study that started this thread, they give evidence that it would save 68,000 lives and $450 Billion. Households would save $2000 a year and there would be no deductibles, premiums or copays.

More importantly, it takes the burden off of the individual having to pay for fat POS companies.

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I'm not sure how many times people will fall for this.


Feb 21, 2020, 12:32 PM

We're going to add even more people to free healthcare, but costs are going to go down?



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Yet nearly every nation in the developed world has


Feb 21, 2020, 12:44 PM

done this successfully, except the US.

You're conservative, if a US plan proved that it saved you 2 grand/yr and you had no copays, deductibles, premiums...would you support it?

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Where do you think these savings will come from,


Feb 21, 2020, 1:01 PM

and how will it be paid?

What you're telling me is that going to a socialized medicare for all is going to lower my $3200/year insurance cost to $1200, and eliminate copays and premiums?

I simply don't believe it.

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How does every other developed nation that has


Feb 21, 2020, 2:05 PM

govt healthcare do it? It's not with magic beans, there is real money involved. There is real proof, not alternative facts, that a govt run health system can work just fine and not break the back of individuals. If facts show that better outcomes and less cost to the individual is obtainable, why is this not the conservative thing to do? Economically and even ideologically, you can view this as a very conservative thing to do, instead of hollering about communism and not honestly confronting the issue.

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Re: How does every other developed nation that has


Feb 21, 2020, 2:19 PM



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From the article you posted:


Feb 21, 2020, 2:49 PM

"However, it’s fair to say a single-payer system with private health providers (like Canada), a publicly run system (like the UK), or strict price controls and required insurance (like Japan) could plausibly give the United States better care for less money."


Making it easier for other countries to pay less. This is an example of US policy placing greater importance on corporate profit over health of our own citizens. Where is the government policy FOR the people? US citizens shouldn't be made to suffer the pains of globalization instead of our corporations that are engaged in global commerce.

And for fat unhealthy Americans, I'm with Tiggity, stop subsidizing corporate producers of unhealthy foods. There is no spinach subsidy, broccoli subsidy, asparagus subsidy....why?

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Re: From the article you posted:


Feb 21, 2020, 2:56 PM



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If we make the individual the priority instead of the


Feb 21, 2020, 3:55 PM

corporation, that doesn't mean innovative technologies are going to go away. The examples of other countries with successful government run healthcare are too many to ignore. I just don't see it as a dangerous boogeyman, there are too many examples that say it is not.

The important word from the article is "plausible". So many studies have proven that single payer/universal/some type of hybrid healthcare system is possible or plausible here. It is possible to take the burden off the individual and that doesn't scare me, as a matter of fact, it appeals to my conservative roots. If we can create a healthcare system that costs less on the whole and provides better care than what we have now...why wouldn't we do it? It's not because we can't.

I've been in the pharma business for 20 years, I've witnessed first hand where and why innovation goes. In fact, the last 20 years the 60 largest pharmas have become 10. How's that for M&A? When I started in this business drug discovery, NCEs(new chemical entities)research was huge, big pharmas spent billions even with an 18 yrs concept to market timeline. As the M&A happened, these budgets got smaller and smaller along with the numbers of people doing the research. They wanted ways to manufacture product cheaper and squeeze as much money out of the process as possible...and most generics go offshore(india). The innovation now is in small labs, incubators, university/corporate collaborations and they're doing it at a fraction of the cost compared to 20 years ago. Just look at the explosion of interleukin inhibitors. Small labs sell tech to large pharmas who develop it and scale it to market. Innovation is not going to disappear in the presence of government healthcare.

What our healthcare system needs is for politicians to quit BSing about the boogeyman of socialism, inefficiency, and the impossibility of it all and contribute to the real thought process. If we can do it better why shouldn't we? Because it's politically expedient? These are the oddest of political times, but this issue deserves real work from Dems and Pubs to tackle this problem.

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Those aren't answers.


Feb 21, 2020, 2:25 PM [ in reply to How does every other developed nation that has ]

1) How will healthcare be cheaper with more people using the same or less resources
2) Who will pay for it
3) My insurance will only be $1200/year, with no copays?

If this is so easy to do, those should be easy answers.

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All of this is addressed in the posted Yale study.***


Feb 21, 2020, 2:50 PM



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So you don't know, either.


Feb 21, 2020, 4:51 PM

Got it.

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Read Felix’s post you grouch***


Feb 21, 2020, 5:56 PM



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A woman who was attacked by a mountain lion and had her


Feb 21, 2020, 3:04 PM [ in reply to You're not looking at the crux of the issue. Cost. ]

face basically bitten off was asked in a reddit AMA what the hardest part of recovering was.

She said, "Blue Cross, hand down"




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So now we're using Twitter and Reddit to make our case


Feb 21, 2020, 3:12 PM



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But it's different when T-Rump does his ####....***


Feb 21, 2020, 5:17 PM



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All while being the police and protectant of most of the


Feb 20, 2020, 12:49 PM [ in reply to By that logic, I should also have the brand new F-250 ]

county.

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Calling that a false equivalency


Feb 20, 2020, 12:59 PM [ in reply to By that logic, I should also have the brand new F-250 ]

is an insult to the word equivalency

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I like your funny words magic man


Because you're completely missing the point***


Feb 20, 2020, 1:23 PM



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Forget it, I.U.


Feb 20, 2020, 12:50 PM [ in reply to You particularly surprise me. ]

There are very stupid people amongst us...

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Reminds me of the digging in


Feb 20, 2020, 12:53 PM

conservatives did when FDR introduced Social Security. Now the same people are screaming about it being cut.

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I like your funny words magic man


So you're saying that another government program


Feb 20, 2020, 1:01 PM

That has been continually funded for 85 years, is failing. But you can't understand why people who were forced to pay money into it for their entire working life are angry about it being cut?


Do I need to spell out the analogy between that concept, and gov't run healthcare?

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What are you talking about?


Feb 20, 2020, 1:07 PM

Trump is trying to cut SS because his tax cuts have ballooned the deficit

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I like your funny words magic man


Are you intentionally being this dense?***


Feb 20, 2020, 1:08 PM



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SS has been attacked 100 different ways over the years


Feb 20, 2020, 1:13 PM [ in reply to What are you talking about? ]

I doubt you remember it being called a "lock box" in the 80's..then it being raided again for political reasons. It doesn't matter who is raiding it this year--its available money that is there. It will always be a target as its an income stream.

How will healthcare be any different? Do you really think that its coverage won't change, and decrease go down over time, but the costs will continue to go up as the system grows exponentially? Does government ever get smaller? Eventually, it will be another expensive tax that serves nothing but is abused by all. But that's what you want?

Look at Australian healthcare as a perfect example.

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Re: SS has been attacked 100 different ways over the years


Feb 20, 2020, 1:29 PM


I doubt you remember it being called a "lock box" in the 80's..then it being raided again for political reasons. It doesn't matter who is raiding it this year--its available money that is there. It will always be a target as its an income stream.

How will healthcare be any different? Do you really think that its coverage won't change, and decrease go down over time, but the costs will continue to go up as the system grows exponentially? Does government ever get smaller? Eventually, it will be another expensive tax that serves nothing but is abused by all. But that's what you want?

Look at Australian healthcare as a perfect example.




Yeah, lets look at the Australian Healthcare system:

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/4/15/18311694/australia-health-care-system

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Sorry..not looking at anything Vox posts.


Feb 20, 2020, 1:49 PM

But yeah..lets look at Australian healthcare.

-Started as government run only
-incorporated personal medical policies
-Per Wiki:

Government subsidies have not kept up with increasing fees charged by medical professionals or the increasing cost of medicines.[17] Data from the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare shows that out-of-pocket payments increased four-and-a-half times faster than government funding in 2014–15.[56] This has led to large numbers of patients skipping treatment or medicine.[57] Australian out of pocket health expenses are the third highest in the developed world.[56]

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"Increasing fees" and "increasing costs".... Limit them.***


Feb 21, 2020, 11:28 AM



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I’ve seen people swing wildly, but this is another level.***


Feb 20, 2020, 1:15 PM [ in reply to Reminds me of the digging in ]



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null


I don't think they are stupid.


Feb 20, 2020, 12:56 PM [ in reply to Forget it, I.U. ]

I just don't think they understand a very complex issue, but just boil it down to "why won't it work here?" and think the rest of us are rubes for disagreeing on the outcome. Add to that they have a bunch of people who want to be president cheering on the idea of getting something-everything-for free.

Its like the Gamecocks asking themselves "why can't we win in football? We have everything everyone else does", and the whole fan base shows up on Sep 1 only to get smacked in the head with reality again.

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If you take away the emotional personal connection


Feb 20, 2020, 1:02 PM

because it is your job,

We have to look at what it is.

A cost/benefit.

How do we know what it will cost vs. who it will benefit? We look at other countries who have UHC.

Simple fact is, it is going to help more people than it is going to hurt (for example it would end up hurting you). And it will save money overall.

There are MULTIPLE peer researched articles and real life examples of this.

Denying this is the same as denying climate change.

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I like your funny words magic man


Thats actually not my job.


Feb 20, 2020, 1:04 PM

I work for a software company.

Regardless, I'll skip all of this down to "Denying this is the same as denying climate change."

I think you've said all there is to say here. Maybe Bengaline was right.

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It's a "Keeping up with the Jones's" attitude***


Feb 20, 2020, 1:05 PM [ in reply to I don't think they are stupid. ]



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I am always amazed at people


Feb 21, 2020, 4:57 PM [ in reply to You particularly surprise me. ]

who describe themselves as patriotic Americans who seem to hate their government - and many Americans, too.

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Government was originally meant to be limited in scope


Feb 21, 2020, 5:02 PM



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yeah, when we all become mere statistics in the


Feb 20, 2020, 12:44 PM

government machine.

The rich, just like the royals in the UK, will still have the best care and pay for it themselves.

Its true that the poor will benefit under medicare for all but the middle class will suffer most like most socialist proposals.

So, if social balancing is your goal, this will achieve it. The poor will advance to the detriment of the middle class while the richest remain unscathed.

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Re: yeah, when we all become mere statistics in the


Feb 20, 2020, 1:26 PM


government machine.

The rich, just like the royals in the UK, will still have the best care and pay for it themselves.

Its true that the poor will benefit under medicare for all but the middle class will suffer most like most socialist proposals.

So, if social balancing is your goal, this will achieve it. The poor will advance to the detriment of the middle class while the richest remain unscathed.




Not according to this study. Did you read the article? It says that the average American household will save $2000.

How is it that Latvia, Hungary, Turkey, Mexico, Poland, Estonia, Czech Republic, Chile, Slovenia, Portugal, Israel, Italy and Japan all pay less than half what we pay and live 5 years longer?

How are other countries able to pull this miracle off but the U.S. is incapable?

What boggles my mind is how on earth did it actually become illegal to a) allow Medicare to negotiate drug prices and b) import cheaper pharmaceuticals from Canada or other countries.

And you guys argue to keep trust the same govt. to provide you with quality healthcare at reasonable prices? It's a rig system and we all pay for it. I argue, get the profit motive out of healthcare. Pay or die isn't capitalism, it's immoral profiteering.

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Re: yeah, when we all become mere statistics in the


Feb 20, 2020, 1:43 PM



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Re: yeah, when we all become mere statistics in the


Feb 21, 2020, 5:00 PM

What good is all of that technical and pharmaceutical advancement if regular working folks can't afford it ??

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Wrong. Currently, most R&D is done in smaller labs... R&D in


Feb 21, 2020, 7:00 PM [ in reply to Re: yeah, when we all become mere statistics in the ]

the big Pharmas has been dramatically reduced since the cuts made post consolidation...

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Re: Wrong. Currently, most R&D is done in smaller labs... R&D in


Feb 21, 2020, 7:24 PM



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This is a good discussion of what I'm talking about


Feb 21, 2020, 11:43 PM



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yeah, pay less get even less***


Feb 20, 2020, 2:27 PM [ in reply to Re: yeah, when we all become mere statistics in the ]



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A lot of poor people already have "free" healthcare


Feb 20, 2020, 1:33 PM [ in reply to yeah, when we all become mere statistics in the ]

It's the ones in between that are screwed. It's basically free to have a kid if you're poor enough, but middle-class folks can get stuck with huge bills.

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Re: A lot of poor people already have "free" healthcare


Feb 20, 2020, 1:37 PM

JD404® said:

It's the ones in between that screwed. It's basically free to have a kid if you're poor enough, but middle-class folks can get stuck with huge bills.




I had a friend and his wife have a child 5 years ago. There were no complications, simple delivery no problem. The hospital billed his insurance $56,000. He had to pay 20% of that. And that was 6 years ago.

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I don't believe that. I just had a kid and it was like $15k


Feb 20, 2020, 1:43 PM

for the delivery and $1200 out of pocket.

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3k here is what we had to pay out of pocket


Feb 20, 2020, 1:51 PM

Just got the bill for my son's hand surgery. The recovery room (where he literally spent no more than 30 minutes until he woke up) was 4600 dollars.

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I like your funny words magic man


You're paying your fair share so those other people can


Feb 20, 2020, 1:55 PM

get their hand surgery for free. Feels good, doesn't it. They probably ran a barrage of completely unnecessary tests, too.

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The tests were prob either gov't mandated, or done by


Feb 20, 2020, 2:09 PM

by the doc so he wouldn't be sued for not 1)doing the tests and thereby 2)doing grave injury to his poor, malnourished, underprivileged son.

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No way he paid 20 percent or about $11k on that


Feb 20, 2020, 2:02 PM [ in reply to Re: A lot of poor people already have "free" healthcare ]



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Unless you get a surprise out-of-network bill***


Feb 20, 2020, 2:15 PM



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Re: Unless you get a surprise out-of-network bill***


Feb 20, 2020, 2:21 PM



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Re: Unless you get a surprise out-of-network bill***


Feb 20, 2020, 2:24 PM

"To understand why surprise medical bills pose such a policy conundrum, start with some basics. Hospitals accept insurance plans for the doctors they directly employ. But most doctors are not employed by their hospitals. Instead, they’re independent contractors who are free to pick and choose which health plans they participate in. So while an orthopedic surgeon might take your Aetna PPO, the neurosurgeon or the anesthesiologist might not. When multiple doctors get pulled into a procedure or are called on to assess a patient, some may not accept the same insurance.

Plus, many emergency rooms are themselves independent contractors: Patients in need of urgent care may arrive knowing the hospital is in-network, but unaware that the ER doc they’re seeing isn’t. The health plan will pay whatever amount it sets for out-of-network providers, and the balance of the doctor’s hefty fee falls to the unlucky patient, who probably never saw the bills coming."

https://slate.com/business/2014/10/surprise-out-of-network-hospital-bills-why-its-so-hard-for-states-to-protect-patients.html

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Re: Unless you get a surprise out-of-network bill***


Feb 20, 2020, 2:31 PM



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Re: A lot of poor people already have "free" healthcare


Feb 21, 2020, 12:28 PM [ in reply to Re: A lot of poor people already have "free" healthcare ]

Felix2® said:

JD404® said:

It's the ones in between that screwed. It's basically free to have a kid if you're poor enough, but middle-class folks can get stuck with huge bills.




I had a friend and his wife have a child 5 years ago. There were no complications, simple delivery no problem. The hospital billed his insurance $56,000. He had to pay 20% of that. And that was 6 years ago.


I’ve had 2 children at anmed and we never paid a dime. Where the hell are you having these babies

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Re: yeah, when we all become mere statistics in the


Feb 21, 2020, 5:01 PM [ in reply to yeah, when we all become mere statistics in the ]

You don't think you are already just statistics in the for profit insurance machine ??

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And yet none of this study addresses quality of care


Feb 20, 2020, 1:17 PM



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Watching the John Oliver segment on this he had examples


Feb 20, 2020, 3:42 PM

where a congresswoman (who was running for office at the time so not covered under Gov't plan) had an appendicitis and was in incredible pain but didn't want to call an ambulance because it was too expensive, so she got a friend to come drive her to a hospital that was further away than others because it was in her insurance coverage network, but the surgeon (which she had no choice in choosing) wasn't covered in her network so her insurance didn't cover his payment.

Another example was of a family trying to raise money on GoFundMe to pay for an eye surgery. (He gave the statistic that 90% of GoFundMe campaigns don't meet their goal)

Last example I remember was of a woman having to choose between paying for her heart medication or insulin because she couldn't afford both.

Oliver's opinion is that medicare for all is the better option to address these issues, and I don't know if that's true, but I know these examples happen in our current system and they shouldn't so whatever "fix" we try needs to allow for people to get the care they need when they need it without having the cost influence their decision making.

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"without having the cost influence their decision making."


Feb 20, 2020, 3:54 PM

Is there any other aspect of your life that this same reasoning comes into play?

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Other aspects similar to life/death decisions? No.***


Feb 20, 2020, 4:08 PM



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Other peoples money never runs out I suppose.***


Feb 20, 2020, 4:38 PM



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Was that what I said?***


Feb 20, 2020, 4:41 PM



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What I read that you said was


Feb 20, 2020, 5:16 PM

"...but I know these examples happen in our current system and they shouldn't so whatever "fix" we try needs to allow for people to get the care they need when they need it without having the cost influence their decision making."

At some point, money does become finite..even when it is someone else's money, no?

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Was I arguing that money is infinite?


Feb 20, 2020, 5:20 PM

Cost should not have to influence a person's decision making when it's (often) a life or death decision. That's my argument.

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If money isn't infinite, who should pay for the decision?***


Feb 20, 2020, 5:33 PM



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The person, government, insurance, etc...


Feb 20, 2020, 5:36 PM

any one, group or mixture, but cost should not influence whether or not someone decides to get the care they need.

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Well, it does.


Feb 20, 2020, 6:08 PM

Cost shouldn't dictate what schools we go to, or whether we live in a nice neighborhood, or what part of the world we come from...but it does.

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Agreed.***


Feb 20, 2020, 6:25 PM



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Re: "without having the cost influence their decision making."


Feb 21, 2020, 5:04 PM [ in reply to "without having the cost influence their decision making." ]

So you are cool with the quality of health care that your children get being dependent of the quality of your job.

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Re: Watching the John Oliver segment on this he had examples


Feb 20, 2020, 5:26 PM [ in reply to Watching the John Oliver segment on this he had examples ]



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Here's the segment


Feb 20, 2020, 5:41 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Z2XRg3dy9k

note: I'm not saying I agree with his overall argument, but I do agree (as most probably do) that our current system needs to be fixed.

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Re: Here's the segment


Feb 20, 2020, 5:49 PM



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Same hospitals and same doctors... What's "dumbing down"?


Feb 21, 2020, 11:41 AM

What are they going to do? Shut the doors... Immigrate to another country? I don't think so.

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I love the argument "well doctors will


Feb 21, 2020, 11:53 AM

leave!"

And go where? All other modern countries have UHC.

Where are they going to go? the Congo?

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I like your funny words magic man


Most of the docs over there are volunteers... Doesn't fit.


Feb 21, 2020, 12:04 PM

Malpractice legislation (limiting the excessive amounts) would dramatically reduce doctors' "cost increases" as would doing away with the myriad of patient insurance policies/levels and requisite admin costs...

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C’mon man you’re smarter than this


Feb 21, 2020, 12:11 PM [ in reply to Same hospitals and same doctors... What's "dumbing down"? ]



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Re: Yale University study on Medicare for all


Feb 20, 2020, 5:52 PM

my health issues are self inflicted

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read this morning. thought it was pretty interesting


Feb 21, 2020, 10:40 AM

Something really needs to be done about the cost of healthcare in this country

https://twitter.com/oren_cass/status/1230505794686373888?s=20

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Is that on top of the thousands of dollars that Obama care saved us per household?***


Feb 21, 2020, 12:44 PM



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Bump...***


Mar 18, 2020, 10:57 AM



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Why?***


Mar 18, 2020, 10:58 AM



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Hypothetical that has suddenly become SOP...***


Mar 18, 2020, 11:51 AM



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How so? Are you saying under MCA that we would be better pre


Mar 18, 2020, 12:04 PM

pared, and there would have been additional empty hospital beds waiting for a pandemic to occur? Warehouses full of ventilators, gowns and facemasks?

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No way to know that... Since 1970, available hospital beds


Mar 18, 2020, 12:29 PM

have dropped from ~1.5M to ~900k, essentially a 40% drop.

It correlates with the decline in community-based hospitals vs. the rise in the consolidation of private-for-profit hospital corporations.

Statista.com wants a fee to access anything more... Anyway, just an observation...

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Stunning lack of diversity among the countries listed


Mar 18, 2020, 12:10 PM

Just tossing that out there.

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Did you vote or Bernie?***


Mar 18, 2020, 3:56 PM



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Good God, as if all this isn't maddening enough, we have


Mar 18, 2020, 4:28 PM

people bumping megathreads for no good reason. Wise up people.

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Didn't know whether to TU, or TD***


Mar 18, 2020, 4:30 PM



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You didn't bump it.***


Mar 18, 2020, 4:32 PM



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