»
Topic: Re "let's fire Brownell so we can move forward"
Replies: 24   Last Post: Feb 22, 2020 7:37 PM by: Rw43
This topic has been archived - replies are not allowed.


[ Archives - Tiger Boards Archive ]
Start New Topic
Replies: 24  

Re "let's fire Brownell so we can move forward"

emoji_events [5]
Posted: Feb 20, 2020 6:33 PM
 

I consider this statement to be irrational and frivolous.

This is the reason. Look at the ACC standings as we speak, 2/20/20:

Chris Mack 2nd year 13-3
Mike Krzyzewski 40th year 5 NCs 12-3
Leonard Hamilton 18th year 12-3
Tony Bennett 11th year 1 NC 10-5
Kevin Keatts 3rd year 8-7
Jim Boeheim 44th year 1 NC 7-8
Mike Brey 20th year 7-8
Brad Brownell 10th year 7-8
Josh Pastner 4th year 7-8
Jim Christian 6th year 7-9
Mike Young 1st year 6-9
Jim Larranaga 9th year 6-10
Jeff Capel iii 2nd year 6-10
Danny Manning 6th year 4-12
Roy Williams 17th year 3 NCs 3-12

You'll see that Coach Brownell is 7th in the ACC in seniority. And in a 'rebuilding' year, his team has been right about 7-10th all year.

In any statistical pattern, there are anomalies or outliers. We all understand that. But we sometimes disagree on what the pattern is, and what are the outliers.

Additionally, sometimes we disagree on what factors are the cause and which are the result. Some fans say that a coach's success is what earn him longevity; i agree somewhat, but i also believe the inverse, which is what these standings illustrate: SUCCESS IS DUE TO LONGEVITY as much as longevity is due to success.

Chris Mack is the obvious positive outlier. His status, and that of the Louisville program, were far from typical in terms of gaining ascendance in the ACC. His program had a terrible year of no direction before he arrived; but he still had a good roster, and he himself had just come off a #1 seeding in the NCAAT at a mid-major less than 100 miles away. His recruiting success at Louisville was immediate.

Roy Williams is the obvious negative outlier, which demonstrates how a lack of depth can kill a season. Or we might say that the boring concept--team defense--that the rest of the ACC works at but the Tarheels don't is so vital. Or perhaps this season itself is the outlier.

The reason i say that success is due to longevity is because success is based more on recruiting than any other factor including coaching. And recruiting is based on the twin rails of longevity and success.

Wanna fire the coach? Ok, tell me whose spot in the standings you'd rather have next year. And how you see that happening.

But never mind me. I just love mediocrity.


Re: Re "let's fire Brownell so we can move forward"


Posted: Feb 20, 2020 7:23 PM
 

Anyone but Brownell! Time to start with a new coach !

Quit wasting money on him !!

badge-donor-05yr.jpg

Re: Re "let's fire Brownell so we can move forward"

emoji_events [5]
Posted: Feb 20, 2020 7:47 PM
 

yeah he's ruined our great hoops program. People like you kill me. Wont support it but will botch about it. find another team then. He's our coach till he's fired.

badge-donor-05yr.jpg

And many alumni including myself hope that is soon***


Posted: Feb 21, 2020 5:56 PM
 




100 thousand posts!!?? Wow!


Posted: Feb 21, 2020 6:09 PM
 

Man, thats alot of Tigernet scoop.

hahaha
#21


Come on, man. There is a reason these other coaches have

emoji_events [6]
Posted: Feb 20, 2020 7:36 PM
 

longevity - because they won big early, or at least bigger than Brownell. They would not have lasted with Brownell's record.

Brownell has been here 10 years. 2 NCAA Tournament appearances.

NCAA Tournaments for these coaches in first 10 years:
Coach K - 7, including 4 final fours.
Leonard Hamilton - 4, including one sweet 16 and one round of 32. Plus 4 NITs.
Tony Bennett - 7, including one championship, one elite 8, one sweet 16.
Jim Boeheim - 8, including 2 final fours, one elite 8, and one sweet 16.
Mike Brey - 6, including one sweet 16 and 2 round of 32.
Roy Williams - never mind, you get the idea.

All of these coaches were MUCH more successful than Brownell early on, and over that 10 year span, and beyond. Thus the longevity.

2020 purple level memberbadge-donor-15yr.jpg

"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


Re: Re "let's fire Brownell so we can move forward"

[4]
Posted: Feb 20, 2020 8:17 PM
 

If success is due to Longevity, then how many tourneys would Shyatt have made if he was never fired?


Re: Re "let's fire Brownell so we can move forward"


Posted: Feb 21, 2020 1:28 PM
 

"Recruiting is based on the twin rails of longevity and success."

If Larry Shyatt had guaranteed that his team could rise one spot in the standings every year, would you have been willing to wait 10 years for a conference championship?

Of course not. Because that's not the chest-thumping way to win. Yet here we are, still without one.


Go Tigers! Beat BC!***

[2]
Posted: Feb 20, 2020 8:30 PM
 



2020 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg

Re: Re "let's fire Brownell so we can move forward"

[1]
Posted: Feb 20, 2020 8:38 PM
 

You never fire someone " for the last 10 years."

You fire them for "right now." And right now, his team is responding to his leadership.

You can argue he shouldn't have gotten 10 years, but with the AD change and facilities upgrade he might have gotten passes.

But right now, replacing him means going back to the basement for the next several years.

Unless you think Clemson is so much of a basketball nirvana that our next coach will immediately be better than Manning, Paster, Christian, etc.

That's the whole point. Kevin Keats is the only normal and recent hire in the top half of the league. And while we all despise NC St, their commitment to basketball has always been greater than ours.

Other than you thumping on your chest, what will make our next coach more ascendant than any other new hire?

There is a settling in process before you get taken seriously by recruits.

And wasting money? Please. Try getting a job that pays 5 figures before you complain about money.


The saying "what have you done for me lately?"

[4]
Posted: Feb 20, 2020 9:25 PM
 

is often mentioned in sports, especially as it relates to coaches. Interestingly, many posters here don't seem to care what Brad has done lately. They continue the same lame, overused talking points about him being here 10 years, only making 2 NCAA Tournaments, etc.

I'm not sure why they don't seem to care what he's done lately, except for the fact that they decided a long time ago that they don't like him and that it doesn't matter to them what he does now. They just want him gone.

I do care what he's done lately, which is why I see reason for optimism. In the last three years, we have:

-Made some important coaching staff changes: firing Winiecki, and hiring Reynolds Dean, Simmons, and Goins
-Made some important program staff hires, including bringing on McIntyre and also expanding our recruiting and social media staff
-Gone to the Sweet 16, despite losing our best player mid-year, in what was an excellent coaching job by Brownell
-Won 20 games last year, the second year in a row we've done that
-Seen an uptick in recruiting success, including a nice class in 2019 and a great class in 2020

If you look at the last three years (2017-2018, 2018-2019, and thus far in 2019-2020), we are 58-36, which is a 62% winning percentage. Over this span of time, we are also 27-24 in the ACC, good for a 53% winning percentage. Again, these numbers include this season as well, so I'm not "cherry picking" only the best years.

As I've said before, if people can't see that our program is likely to see some good years ahead, then they are trying hard not to see it.

2020 white level member

Brad Brownell: all-time winningest coach in Clemson men's basketball history, and only coach to beat North Carolina in Chapel Hill.


Another term for the "overused talking points" you are

[3]
Posted: Feb 21, 2020 12:49 AM
 

referring to is "facts".


Funny how the positive facts about Brownell are often minimized here.***

[1]
Posted: Feb 21, 2020 12:43 PM
 



2020 white level member

Brad Brownell: all-time winningest coach in Clemson men's basketball history, and only coach to beat North Carolina in Chapel Hill.


WHAT POSITIVE FACTS??


Posted: Feb 21, 2020 6:00 PM
 

Please show me some stats of his Championships? He runs a clean program...That's about all he has going for him.


Re: WHAT POSITIVE FACTS??


Posted: Feb 22, 2020 6:12 PM
 

You know how hard it is to win championships in college sports? Literally 4-5 acc schools share the dang ACC championship.

2020 student level member

Re: WHAT POSITIVE FACTS??


Posted: Feb 22, 2020 7:17 PM
 

Wouldn't you have a stronger argument if were were one of those 4-5 schools?

2020 white level member

Re: The saying "what have you done for me lately?"


Posted: Feb 21, 2020 1:56 PM
 

And what has Simmons brought to the table ? And at what salary ? Barely .500 in 10 years at Evansville when he was fired. We didn't have a spot for him (friend of BB) so we created another title and hired him the next day. Watch his contributions, or lack of, during a game. ????


20 wins isn't the goal...

[1]
Posted: Feb 21, 2020 5:59 PM
 

NIT isn't the goal. Or at least not for me.

There is nothing wrong with expecting to make the NCAAs. A 20% rate is not enough.

We didn't go last year and we won't be going this year. So what have you done for me lately??


Re: 20 wins isn't the goal...


Posted: Feb 22, 2020 6:13 PM
 

When did we decide we're not going this year? We win today we're 14-12 with 2 top 10 wins and 3rd potential one next Saturday.

2020 student level member

He's Just Ok


Posted: Feb 21, 2020 5:39 AM
 

Do you think our basketball recruiting plays out like one of those AT&T commercials?


Re: Re "let's fire Brownell so we can move forward"

[1]
Posted: Feb 21, 2020 7:35 PM
 

Wonderful! I bet you thought that was sarcastic --Wrong. Brad deserves at least one more year, maybe two. Not embarrassing the University gets him that much (think Louisville.) If UNC can use injuries as an excuse/reason why can't Brad do the same? BTW, he has not leaned upon the injuries anywhere near as he could have.


Here's the camp I'm in


Posted: Feb 21, 2020 7:45 PM
 

Coach Brownell seems to be a good x and o coach. Our recruiting has not been at a level to compete yearly. That may be changing. My only wish is that we had more shooters. I hope they are coming.


Re: Here's the camp I'm in

[1]
Posted: Feb 22, 2020 6:14 PM
 

Clemson has the top player in SC recruited and another 4 star forward.

2020 student level member

Your logic is flawed


Posted: Feb 22, 2020 7:02 PM
 

Not that I am of the opinion that we must fire - but I would not object either.

Simply looking at a snapshot in time does not determine the quality of a coach.
These are my important questions.
Has he built a consistent program?
Is the team getting better on average?
Are we clearly better off than when he took over?
Is he recruiting consistently better players?
Does he develop talent or just renting other programs transfers?
Is he engaging the students and fans?

Several of these questions are negative.
Recruiting has been lacking. Simply getting transfers to fill out the team is not building a program.
I personally don’t believe we are better than when he took over.
I do not believe he has engaged the students and fans to build support.
We have not had a true big man in years. Sims is out of position.

The flaw in the theory “this was supposed to be a down year” does not work for me either. Why would there not be talent ready to go and at least be as good as the average team of last year?

I am enthusiastic about the performance the past few games. A bit more exciting.

Is 10 years enough to know a coaches strengths and weaknesses?

Another year won’t make me throw up or quit donating. That being said - I don’t know what will change after 10 years that takes us to a new level. My new level is to feel that if the stars are in alignment - we could win the acc tournament. A mature developed team can beat McDonald’s .

JMO anyway.


Re: Your logic is flawed


Posted: Feb 22, 2020 7:37 PM
 

Which logic?

I answered this one before.

If you are a NASCAR driver running 2nd but at the head of the slower line, you are going to lose numerous places in order to get into the fast lane.

OP was driving Clemson's car in the slow lane. He was never going to compete for championships or find success in the postseason, and the early development of youth players have rendered his style obsolete at the higher levels.

So BB's first job was to get Clemson into the fast lane, regardless of how many places we lost in order to get in the mainstream.

We are now competing for the same types of players and play the same style as championship teams. If it takes steady progress now to work our way up the standings, it's ok. We are now in a position to compete.

And BB is proving that with similar players to the other teams, he will outcoach our opponent. When we are equal, we win.


Replies: 24  

TIGER TICKETS

FB GAME: Pitt
FOR SALE: Looking for one ticket Text if have available for sale

Buy or Sell CU Tickets and More in Tiger Tickets!

[ Archives - Tiger Boards Archive ]
Start New Topic
2276 people have read this post