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Is marijuana use as safe as we think?
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Is marijuana use as safe as we think?


Jan 10, 2019, 1:29 PM

Apparently a book by a former NYT reporter has been making some waves in some outlets you wouldn't expect, like The New Yorker and Mother Jones. Sounds like everything hasn't been as dank and chill as expected in places where it's been legalized:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/01/14/is-marijuana-as-safe-as-we-think

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/01/new-york-times-journalist-alex-berenson-tell-your-children-marijuana-crime-mental-illness-1/


"Over the past couple of decades, studies around the globe have found that THC—the active compound in cannabis—is strongly linked to psychosis, schizophrenia, and violence. Berenson interviewed far-flung researchers who have quietly but methodically documented the effects of THC on serious mental illness, and he makes a convincing case that a recreational drug marketed as an all-around health product may, in fact, be really dangerous—especially for people with a family history of mental illness and for adolescents with developing brains.

A 2002 study in BMJ (formerly the British Medical Journal) found that people who used cannabis at age 15 were more than four times as likely to develop schizophrenia or a related syndrome as those who’d never used. Even when the researchers excluded kids who had shown signs of psychosis by age 11, they found that the adolescent users had a threefold higher risk of developing schizophrenia later on. One Dutch marijuana researcher that Berenson spoke with estimated, based on his own work, that marijuana could be responsible for as much as 10 percent of psychosis in places where heavy use is common.

These studies are hardly Reagan-esque, drug warrior hysteria. In 2017, the National Academy of Medicine issued a report nearly 500 pages long on the health effects of cannabis and concluded that marijuana use is strongly associated with the development of psychosis and schizophrenia. The researchers also noted that there’s decent evidence pot can exacerbate bipolar disorder and increase the risk of suicide, depression, and social anxiety disorders: “The higher the use, the greater the risk.”

Given that marijuana use is up 50 percent over the past decade, if the studies are accurate, we should be experiencing a big increase in psychotic diseases. And we are, Berenson argues. He reports that from 2006 to 2014, the most recent year for which data is available, the number of ER visitors co-diagnosed with psychosis and a cannabis use disorder tripled, from 30,000 to 90,000."

"Before talking to Berenson, I didn’t realize it was possible to smoke your way to the ER. I smoked plenty of weed in high school and so did all my friends, and none of us jumped off a balcony or killed anyone—we could barely get off the couch. But the marijuana sold today is not what we smoked, which at 1 percent to 2 percent THC was the equivalent of smoking oregano. Today’s weed is insanely more potent, as are products like “wax” and “shatter”—forms of butane hash oil designed to be vaped or dabbed that come pretty close to 100 percent THC. And these high-potency products usually contain very little CBD oil, the ingredient in cannabis that’s supposed to account for many of its supposed health benefits.

These potent products can cause hallucinations, restlessness, and, as anyone who’s smoked even weak pot is familiar with, paranoia. After reading Berenson’s book, I fact-checked it a bit, and inadvertently discovered all sorts of websites advising pot users on how to manage their paranoia and ride out the psychotic effects. I also found plenty of news stories about bad trips on pot. Such incidents are typically treated jokingly. “But a lot of the time it turns out not to be a joke,” Berenson told me. “A lot of the time it’s a 22-year-old guy who maybe has some history of aggression, and he winds up throwing himself off the balcony or beating up his girlfriend.”"

"Paranoia and psychosis make people dangerous, so rising use of a drug that causes both would be expected to increase violent crime, rather than reduce it as pot advocates claim. Berenson looked at data for the four states that legalized weed in 2014 and 2015—Oregon, Washington, Alaska, and Colorado—and calculated a combined 35 percent increase in murders in those states from 2013 to 2017, compared with a 20-percent rise nationally. This “isn’t a statistical anomaly,” Berenson writes. “It’s real.”

The role of weed in rising violent crime rates in legalization states is a hotly contested question, especially in Colorado, where murders in Denver are at a 10-year high. Berenson admits he can’t say for sure whether those upswings are due to legal weed, but the raw data, he says, definitely contradicts advocates’ claims: “What I want people to stop saying is that legalization reduces violent crime. It doesn’t.”"

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neither is alcohol


Jan 10, 2019, 1:40 PM

but doesnt mean it should be illegal

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I don't think this piece was about alcohol


Jan 10, 2019, 1:46 PM

Or, really, about what should or shouldn't be legal. You can also recognize that alcohol isn't great for public health without wanting something else that isn't great for public health to be legalized.

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I've never met a woman who's 2 year old son was killed


Jan 10, 2019, 2:08 PM

by a pot smoker. Or a high driver even. I have met a a woman who's 2 year old son was killed by a drunk driver. Met dozens of other people who's children, sons, daughters, parents, or siblings were killed by drunk drivers. My childhood babysitter was killed by a drunk driver.

You really can't compare the damage caused by weed versus alcohol. The biggest damage from marijuana is what happens when you're caught with it. The biggest damage from alcohol is what happens when you're NOT caught with it.

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Found the stoner


Jan 10, 2019, 2:11 PM

and I'm stealing the last line

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I like your funny words magic man


Yeah, I liked it. It's original, at least for me


Jan 10, 2019, 2:16 PM

I'm sure someone else has said it before but I've never heard it. And I'm not a stoner. Never really was. Had a friend who probably smoked an ounce or more a week. He was a stoner. I'm clean now, after months of grueling rehab and withdrawal, for 22 years.

As for my friend, he is a realtor, married, with 2 kids. Wanted to put that in there. He was also the only kid in high school to run his own small business. He earned enough to buy his own car, pay for his own gas. Insurance, everything. And no...he wasn't dealing. Lawn business. It was legit. You know, since it saps all of your drive and ambition.

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The pretty obvious answer to this is...


Jan 10, 2019, 2:21 PM [ in reply to I've never met a woman who's 2 year old son was killed ]

that a lot more people drink to excess. Legalize weed, and maybe you'll get to meet that mother.


The rest of your post is just ignoring what's in the book/article.

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Re: The pretty obvious answer to this is...


Jan 10, 2019, 2:33 PM

Weed is pretty easy to get a hold of. I don’t think legalizing it will really increase use. You either like it or you don’t. Alcohol is much more addictive and widely used, and it’s also much worse for you and the people around you.

And it’s not just alcohol. If you made a ranking of substances that are harmful how many would be above weed that are perfectly legal?

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Harmful or addictive?


Jan 10, 2019, 3:24 PM

I'd blow your mind if I said the vast majority of items stocked in the middle of the grocery store, and not along the walls, was more addictive than pot. ;) Harmful is up for debate. But they are harmful too.

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True dat, true dat. Middle of the grocery store will kill


Jan 14, 2019, 1:49 PM

you DEAD. Oh sure, it'll take a while. But it will surely kill you.

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That last paragraph is pretty incisive.


Jan 10, 2019, 2:25 PM [ in reply to I've never met a woman who's 2 year old son was killed ]

If you could condense all of your posts into 3 sentence summaries, I'll subscribe to your newsletter.

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as a conservative, I just object to the nanny state police


Jan 10, 2019, 2:51 PM [ in reply to I don't think this piece was about alcohol ]

let adults make their own choices good or bad.

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Libertarian, bruh. Conservatives want the same amount of


Jan 10, 2019, 4:31 PM

control, just different flavors. Don't forsake the Apostle Pauls.

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Of course, this is really simplistic and not really true***


Jan 10, 2019, 5:24 PM



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I personally know at least 60-70 people who I know have


Jan 10, 2019, 2:05 PM

used pot. None have killed anyone. None are skitzo. None are murders. NONE are felons. ALL have college degrees. Over HALF are now married and have kids. ALL are currently employed in very (surprisingly) respectable jobs, like marketing, stock trading, bankers, doctors, surgeons, lawyers, politicians, teachers, coaches, cub scout leaders, all kinds of small business owners, POLICE OFFICERS............and....wait for it............ministers/pastors. Of these people, some of whom I'm not in touch with, I know at least 10 still use it occasionally. And you CAN use it occasionally because it's NOT physically addictive. Most people have quit using it for no other reason than they don't want to get arrested. That's me. legalize it and I'd smoke up tomorrow. And every day for a week, then maybe not use it again for a year, then smoke a pound of it, then stop. No one holds up stores for weed money. They do for other drugs though. As for potency, I can go to a convenience store, buy 4 energy drinks, drink them all, and DIE. I can buy powdered caffeine, and die. I can buy everclear, chug it, and die. All perfectly legal.

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Most of this is just anecdotal evidence


Jan 10, 2019, 2:22 PM

I'm not sure it's true that it's not physically addictive, either.

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Marijuana is addictive.


Jan 10, 2019, 3:17 PM

So is ############. It's addictive like chocolate is to my wife, or my 2 morning cups of coffee which I've recently been told I need to quit. If I don't have my coffee tomorrow morning, I will take longer to become as alert. I may not function as well during the day. But somehow, I will survive. I will not start trembling, or think all day about getting that cup of coffee. I will not hold up a gas station to get money for a cup of coffee. I won't steal my kids lunch money for a cup of coffee. But yes, coffee is addictive.

Take the heaviest pot smoker, the heaviest coffee drinker, the heaviest alcohol drinker, and the heaviest heroin addict, and the heaviest smoker, and the heaviest person (carbohydrates). Take away their pot, coffee, alcohol, heroin, cigarettes, and sugars. Watch them carefully over a few days.

You want to know the absolute most abused physically addictive drug around that's used by babies, toddlers, children of all ages, and adults in the US? Yes, our own government recommends we ingest a certain level of this physically addictive substance daily to be "healthy". Carbohydrates. Yep. They are not even needed for survival. You can live a long and healthy life with absolutely zero grams of carbohydrates. Try stopping them totally. ;) As someone who's stopped smoking cigarettes (nicotine), stopped pot (THC), and stopped alcohol, AND someone who has stopped carbohydrates... cigarettes and carbohydrates were the hardest. You will have withdrawal from stopping carbohydrates just like nicotine, or even alcohol. You will get a massive headache. Insomnia. Fatigue. Sweats. Inability to think clearly. You name the classic withdrawal symptom. You get that with carbs. NOT from pot though, or caffeine. Give yourself 4-5 more days and the withdrawal subsides. Energy returns. You're not hungry as much. You will not eat as much. You will have MORE energy than when you ate carbs. You will lose weight also. And the most amazing thing is most people have no clue they're actually addicted to them until they're withdrawn. I never knew that, but it is a very real physical addiction stronger than pot, or caffeine. It's up there probably somewhere between cigarettes and alcohol. Withhold fat, and you will die. Withdraw carbohydrates, and you can live fine. The human body can produce all of the sugars it needs from processing fat. Next time you're in the grocery store, look at someone who's overweight. Look in their buggy. You will see probably a majority of the items are complex carbohydrates (bread, crackers, chips, rice, cereal, etc. Whole grain of course ;) Then look at that skinny woman's buggy. Mostly meats, and vegetables.

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Re: Marijuana is addictive.


Jan 13, 2019, 6:48 PM

I believe they call the Atkins diet

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It’s psychologically addictive like chocolate or


Jan 10, 2019, 4:04 PM [ in reply to Most of this is just anecdotal evidence ]

sweet tater pie. If it’s in the house, I’m gonna eat a little every day. It’s not physically addictive in any way.

If I don’t have any, I don’t really think about it.

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Re: It’s psychologically addictive like chocolate or


Jan 10, 2019, 5:22 PM

https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/marijuana/marijuana-addictive

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Re: Is marijuana use as safe as we think?


Jan 10, 2019, 2:06 PM



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I expect there is confusion re correlation and causation


Jan 10, 2019, 2:26 PM

I would agree that crime & mental illness might highly correlate to marijuana use, as these individuals are very likely predisposed to marijuana and other drug use.

HOWEVER, saying that marijuana use is the cause is a leap, as also referenced in the article. I would expect the stats cited could very likely find other underlying elements with high correlation. Pharmaceutical prescriptions, availability of other drugs and general increases in proper diagnosis could explain the increases as well, and the article seems to discount or ignore those possibilities.

I'll await the JAMA position, but it is worth considering, especially for those with kids and adolescents.

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null


For one, I don't think anyone is advocating for recreational


Jan 10, 2019, 2:34 PM

cannabis use for adolescents. Hasn't the rate of prescribed psychiatric drugs also increased quite a bit in the last decade? One would think that would be a highly contributing factor in the increase in psychotic disease. Particularly since we start prescribing them to young children.

Also, I would think at least some of the violent crime increases could be tied to the large amounts of cash people in the cannabis industry have to keep on hand, since they do not have access to the financial services other small business have.

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there were so many people hitting pens in the lot at CFP


Jan 10, 2019, 3:20 PM

game, no wonder the crowd was crazy!!!!

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Will definitely keep you from screaming obscenities at the


Jan 10, 2019, 3:30 PM

refs in earshot of small children. I mean, allegedly.

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this line is interesting given the weed/alcohol talk ITT


Jan 10, 2019, 3:43 PM

The researchers also noted that there’s decent evidence pot can exacerbate bipolar disorder and increase the risk of suicide, depression, and social anxiety disorders: “The higher the use, the greater the risk.”

alcohol is a depressant

I'm no scientist, nor stoner, but to me it seems that many substances could exacerbate these things.

Ever listen to the warnings on a pharmaceutical commercial?

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Re: this line is interesting given the weed/alcohol talk ITT


Jan 10, 2019, 4:44 PM

That is actually HIGHLY dependent upon the strain of marijuana.

Some weed causes this, others dont.

Strains of weed belonging to the "Indica" strains are good for increasing petite, reducing anxiety and paranoia, reducing seizures, and help with insomnia. The "bad" effects of consuming too much Indica are sedation, general laziness, less motivation while stoned. Indica would be the "lazy stoner" strain if you identify it on its effects when it is abused.

Strains of weed belonging to the "Sativa" strains are good for increasing focus, energy, creativity, help with ADHD and other learning disorders, reducing chronic pain, and anti-depression. Judging Sativa by its "bad" effects of consuming too much Sativa are being "too giggly", being nervous, paranoia. Sativa would be the "laughing paranoid stoner" strain if you identify it on its effects when being abused.

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The last two paragraphs should make one question this guy


Jan 10, 2019, 4:19 PM

Here's a good breakdown of why...

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/01/no-pot-legalization-probably-didnt-increase-homicide-rates.html

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Read both pieces and see what you think


Jan 10, 2019, 5:30 PM

What I copy and pasted is just a highlight, and I agree that he's a long way from proving anything about violence. I do think he's right that there's no evidence that legalization will decrease violence, though.

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Re: Is marijuana use as safe as we think?


Jan 10, 2019, 4:41 PM

Yeah there is a middle road.

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as a Mental Health professional I have personally seen 4


Jan 14, 2019, 1:20 PM

20-something men in the past 2 years who have had psychosis or related problems after using weed or, in one case, synthetic weed.

Thing is, only 1 of the 4 young men was a classic stoner. Most had only used very, very sparingly. That chit is STRONG these days and is sending people to places they did not expect to go.

The stuff out there today is NOT the Walhalla Wacky Weed from back in my day at CU.

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Re: as a Mental Health professional I have personally seen 4


Jan 14, 2019, 1:36 PM

The synthetic weed is a real danger and somehow it’s perfectly legal. I smoked some with my friends one time in college and about a week later read about a guy jumping off a balcony after smoking it and we never touched it again.

Same thing with alcohol. I have family members who have all but ruined their lives and destroyed relationships with people because of the things they have said and done while intoxicated but yet you can legally purchase as much as you want.

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Re: as a Mental Health professional I have personally seen 4


Jan 14, 2019, 1:52 PM [ in reply to as a Mental Health professional I have personally seen 4 ]

Wrong, wrong, wrong. On so many levels.

Weed is not "stronger" these days. Its simply more available and more mainstream, hence we have higher access to quality growing conditions which create plants that have a normal and consistent yields of THC and CBD.

Back in the day, waaaay back in the day (60's, 70's, 80's, and before) weed was not nearly as mainstream, although it was around. The ability to acquire any quantity was more difficult, and the ability to grow in in the US was even more difficult. We were unable to produce it in sufficient quantities in the proper growing conditions. Therefore, either due to poor quality, inexperienced growers, and low quantities, we were never able to cultivate it to its normal capacity.

Back in those days, it was grown in terrible conditions, packaged terribly, and sat around and transported in improper conditions which caused its quality to degrade.


Think of it like seafood. Before modern refrigeration, do you think fresh seafood was readily available in places like, Tennessee? In 1890, would you eat an unpreserved Maine Lobster or Salmon caught in Alaska you bought at the market in downtown Nashville? No, probably not, because the catching, storage, and transportation ability of it was not sufficient enough to keep it fresh long enough to get it there. You wouldn't buy and eat a raw filet of Salmon caught in Alaska from a Nashville food market because it likely took weeks to transport it there without the ability to freeze it and maintain its quality.

Nowadays, you can walk into any Publix in downtown Nashville and get yourself some fresh caught seafood that was swimming in the ocean yesterday, and is still fresh and ready to eat sitting at a seafood display today without questioning the freshness, quality, or risk of ingestion.


The stuff back then was not "weaker" and the stuff today is not "stronger". Its just become much more mainstream, which enables us to grow it and store it properly due to demand and the evolution of the business.

Sure, some strains are more potent than others, but those strains are still all natural and already exist. Because weed has become more mainstream, it also means we have greater access to strains that were previously very rare or hard to obtain.


Weed also does not induce or trigger psychosis. That is a myth with no substantiated evidence. Those young men already had psychosis. By the way, early to mid 20's is the time frame at which significant mental illnesses reach their peak and fully develop. Schizophrenia, psychosis, etc. all become full fledged onset during that age. Marijuana use has little to do with it, and any effects marijuana has in "helping it along" are also found with alcohol and any other intoxicating substance when abused.

This myth that weed is "stronger" and contributing to "mental illness" is simply that: a myth with zero scientific evidence to support the claim.

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A) there’s no Publix in downtown Nashville


Jan 14, 2019, 11:02 PM

B) the rest of your diatribe is just as untrue. https://www.livescience.com/53644-marijuana-is-stronger-now-than-20-years-ago.html

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Re: A) there’s no Publix in downtown Nashville


Jan 14, 2019, 11:32 PM

Do you know WHY the average levels of THC "increase" in that time? Because the ability to grow it in the proper conditions has expanded and become cheaper, as has access to higher quality strains that have existed for thousands of years.

Its simply technology advancing at its typical exponential rate. People in the areas where marijuana is native, such as Afghanistan and Southeast Asia, have always had access to this "super potent" weed. We have not.

However, our ability to grow it in proper conditions and supply proper nutrients has allowed us to grow strains of weed at better quality, and maintain that quality more consistently. Thats it.

If you live in an area where the only dogs are Beagles0, but every now and then you see a German Shepard, you would think thats a rare case of some mutant dog. Start seeing more and more German Shepards, and some people would say "oh man, these days they are breeding dogs to be bigger and stronger!". No, wrong. It just means that as the market and technology progresses, we have greater acess to that breed and ability to distribute it.


Its a very easy concept to understand. Weed is weed. Its not stronger, technology and the market has just given us better access to higher quality strains that already exist.

This level of ignorance you've pushed is astounding.

Whats even more amazing is that there are 2 sides to this debate: legalize it or keep it prohibited. Its interesting that the side supporting legalization is 100% supported by countless scientific and medical studies, market trends, and basic logic, while the side pushing for prohibition is entirely fueled by misinformation, strawman arguments, and your run of the mill illogical contrarianism commom among christian conservatives and soccer moms. Luckily, the people against legalization are lesser than those for it, and they are decreasing at a very quick rate. Its going to be legalized entirely within the next few decades, and it couldnt come soon enough.

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post 1: “weed is not stronger and there’s no scientific


Jan 15, 2019, 7:29 AM

Evidence that it is.”

Post 2: “ok, yeah it’s stronger but that’s only because before it was weaker.”


Blaze on, man.....

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Abuse of any substance- especially intoxicating substances- will lead to negative side effects


Jan 14, 2019, 7:25 PM

I’m not sure this is ground breaking stuff.

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