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Editor [∞]
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Football Update: Smotherman named Assistant Strength and Conditioning Coach
Jun 7, 2013, 6:55 PM
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Hall of Famer [24670]
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Good, young resume with obvious ties.***
Jun 7, 2013, 7:19 PM
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Orange Blooded [2466]
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Love the name Smeotherman!!
Jun 7, 2013, 8:22 PM
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That's perfect for working with our big uglies!
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All-TigerNet [10871]
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At first glance, I thought it said Superman...I was about to
Jun 9, 2013, 1:19 PM
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say....we in business.
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All-TigerNet [13035]
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Another person for the lunatics here to blame the first time
Jun 8, 2013, 8:55 AM
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we lose a game. We can't run the ball, we can't get off blocks. FIRE BATSON AND SMOTHERMAN!!!!
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CU Guru [1746]
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And the first time an injury or recurring injury happens***
Jun 8, 2013, 9:04 AM
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Enthusiast [139]
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Re: Another person for the lunatics here to blame the first time
Jun 8, 2013, 1:52 PM
[ in reply to Another person for the lunatics here to blame the first time ] |
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Actually this the second "assistant" strength and conditioning guy hired in as many years. But remember Dabo told us Batson was the best in the country so why the two new assistants.
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CU Medallion [61437]
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All-TigerNet [13035]
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What? I'm not allowed to poke fun at people that deserve
Jun 8, 2013, 10:33 PM
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it?
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110%er [5636]
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CU Guru [1726]
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Or another person (like Hogan) to show Batson's failings.
Jun 9, 2013, 2:33 PM
[ in reply to Another person for the lunatics here to blame the first time ] |
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For many years under Batson, Clemson's linemen seemed to get pushed around-- often by guys (like with WVU) who were much smaller, let alone by the likes comparably-sized players from Bama, SCar, et al. I'm surprised that people can't see that, but it's just a matter of opinion.
For many years, Clemson has gotten far fewer O-linemen drafted than comparable programs with comparably sized and recruited O-line players. That's not an opinion. That's a fact that tends to indict the S&C program (or the O-line coaching).
A few years ago, TigerNet posted videos of football players weight training showed them using terrible form (swinging weights rather than lifting them, arching backs, bouncing weights off the chest, etc.) When I and others posted specifics critiques about all of the ridiculously, obviously bad, cheating, & dangerous weight-lifting techniques, suddenly-- in a highly unusual move-- TigerNet removed the videos. I wish that I had saved the videos because they provided irrefutable evidence that Batson's program AT LEAST had those problems (which I guess is why the videos were quickly removed).
The rumor that I've heard (and I can't say that it's true) is that Morris complained about the S&C program and so (after Morris enduring it for a season) last year they brought in Hogan (from Bama) as the O-line S&C assistant coach. Suddenly, in the 2012 season the O-line didn't seem to get pushed around as much. Hmmm.... Coincidence? Prosecutor's bias? Maybe. Maybe not.
Now (within a season of Venables coming onboard) they're bringing in Smoetherman (another guy with SEC background) as S&C coach for the D-line. Coincidence? Maybe.
Considering all of that, it seems immature and dismissive to call people "lunatics" for opining criticism of the S&C program.
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Re: Re: Another person for the lunatics here to blame the first time
Jun 9, 2013, 12:45 PM
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If you're trying to imply that another assistant was hired to kinda take over the S&C program and take the reigns from Batson, you're wrong. Coach Batson has just as much fire as ever, and I assure you that Hogan and Smo both know their places. These assistants have came in to kind of supervise their specific groups, Hogan with o-line and Smo with D-line. Coach Batson goes from group to group and talks to everyone and runs the overall work out, while the assistants stick close to their specific group to make sure their are no technical errors in the lift and for a spot if needed. Show some support Tigernet for a new addition and stop hatin. They are all in these positions for a reason, and I assure you if you spoke with these guys on length about your concerns you would feel much better afterwards, instead of basing your opinions off of articles by people who know nothing about strength, speed, agility, and conditioning.
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1st Rounder [623]
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Re: Re: Another person for the lunatics here to blame the first time
Jun 9, 2013, 12:45 PM
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If you're trying to imply that another assistant was hired to kinda take over the S&C program and take the reigns from Batson, you're wrong. Coach Batson has just as much fire as ever, and I assure you that Hogan and Smo both know their places. These assistants have came in to kind of supervise their specific groups, Hogan with o-line and Smo with D-line. Coach Batson goes from group to group and talks to everyone and runs the overall work out, while the assistants stick close to their specific group to make sure their are no technical errors in the lift and for a spot if needed. Show some support Tigernet for a new addition and stop hatin. They are all in these positions for a reason, and I assure you if you spoke with these guys on length about your concerns you would feel much better afterwards, instead of basing your opinions off of articles by people who know nothing about strength, speed, agility, and conditioning.
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1st Rounder [623]
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Re: Or another person (like Hogan) to show Batson's failings.
Jun 9, 2013, 4:04 PM
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Batson has lots of say so in who is hired, bringing back two graduate assistants in Hogan and Smotherman. Smotherman has always been around strength coaches with the same background and training regimenes as Batson, so I think that point is off base. I think the fact that both of these guys were former Clemson GA's speaks to the fact of how much Batson is still involved. I watched the videos also with "coach" Munson lol, and I agree some of it looked bad. But how much of that is Batson's fault, and how much is the players fault for getting lazy when the coaches turn their back? I agree with the fact that some of the forms were bad, and it seemed that in some of those videos all that mattered was that they were moving lots of weight, but I think the addition of another assistant will help tremendously in correcting things that Batson can't always see. If you think that Batson teaches them to lift the way you seen in some of those videos, then you're mistaken. No collegiate strength coach teaches that, it's just the fact that some of those kids come in, think they know everything in the world ab everything, and they are going to do it their way when there isn't someone right over the top of them making them do it correctly.
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Fan [76]
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To all the fans who just wanna fire someone.
Jun 9, 2013, 10:19 PM
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All of our guys who leave Clemson are not considered weak. Brandon Thompson, Malaciah, Daquan, Andre and Jarvis looked and was pretty strong in their combine.
Espn make you think strength and conditioning only happens in the SEC. I support our staff I think they are making the proper adjustments. I've been a fan since 79 so I seen the glory and our shame. We will get that swagger back BELIEVE IT.
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Enthusiast [139]
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ever read an NFL scouting report of our players?***
Jun 9, 2013, 11:11 PM
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Re: ever read an NFL scouting report of our players?***
Jun 10, 2013, 9:39 AM
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What does the NFL scouting report say? That Batson should be fired? Read every draft prospects file, almost every one of them says that the player will need to get stronger at the next level, which isn't hard to do when you don't have class and you also now have the money to buy the right kinds of food for yourself. This point has been brought up before, and I looked at other players from the schools where people like you suggest they have better strength coaches, like Alabama and FSU and LSU, and almost all say the same. "Need to learn to use hands better. Need to improve physical conditioning. Need to improve overall strength". Who are these pencil pushers who couldn't probably bench 135 to say that somebody needs to be stronger? Why does their opinion matter anyway? What they say has nothing to do with how the player actually performs. You make it seem as if the clemson players files say that they need a new strength coach, when the truth is a lot of those files say the exact same thing because those idiots reporting don't know what else to write because they never made it off of JV, so they studied in English class really hard and starting writing about the people who pushed them around
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CU Guru [1726]
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CU Guru [1726]
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Batson uses Simmons method. Bama, et al, Hatch method
Jun 10, 2013, 3:57 PM
[ in reply to Re: Or another person (like Hogan) to show Batson's failings. ] |
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ImissCJ wrote:
Smotherman has always been around strength coaches with the same background and training regimenes as Batson, so I think that point is off base.
No. Smoetherman just came out of Bama, whose S&C director (Scott Cochran) is a Gail Hatch disciple.
Batson (a former power lifter) is a self-proclaimed disciple of the Simmons-method powerlifting training which focuses on maximums-- like that needed to win powerlifting competitions. However, the S&C programs of most of the top tier teams' (including every national title winner for the last decade) employ the Gail Hatch method which focuses on explosiveness-- which is needed on the football field.
The following article goes into great detail about Batson's methods and
http://www.shakinthesouthland.com/2012/1/26/2707898/on-clemsons-s-c-program-and-our-problems-with-batson
I realize that Batson can't oversee the players 24/7, when TigerNet posts video so weight training and most (if not all) of the lifts are being done with terrible form, then there's a problem with the program. That's on Batson. He either didn't successfully impress the importance of proper form (and the dangers of bad form) upon the players or he's not employing staff to enforce proper technique. As I recall from the TigerNet videos, there WERE S&C coaches present and cheering on the players (rather than critiquing their form).
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1st Rounder [623]
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Re: Batson uses Simmons method. Bama, et al, Hatch method
Jun 10, 2013, 4:05 PM
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You, sir, have no idea what you are talking about. Smotherman played football at Vanderbilt, interned with S&C at Vandy under Sisk (now at GTech, close friend of Batson), GA at Clemson, assistant at Furman under David Abernathy (former Clemson assistant), and now back at Clemson. Check the facts. And Cochran isn't really a Hatch disciple, more of a Tommy Moffitt wanna-be. Sabah wanted Moffitt, but he wouldn't leave LSU so he scooped up someone who saw everything Moffitt has done. But Moffiitt was in fact a Hatch disciple. Check your facts, they are off
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CU Guru [1726]
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I caught my error but you beat me to the "post" button.
Jun 10, 2013, 4:20 PM
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So you agree with me that Bama employs the Hatch method but you disagree with the term "disciple"? OK. Whatever. The bottom line is that the top tier teams employ the Hatch method and Batson employs the Simmons method, right? And Clemson just hired two assistants (Hogan and Smotherman) that just came out of schools that employ the Hatch method, not the Simmons method, right?
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CU Guru [1726]
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I miswrote. Hogan out of Bama. Both had Hatch background
Jun 10, 2013, 4:14 PM
[ in reply to Batson uses Simmons method. Bama, et al, Hatch method ] |
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I miswrote that Smotherman just came out of Bama, where the S&C director, Scott Cochran is a Gail Hatch disciple. But Hogan, not Smotherman came out of Bama.
Smotherman came out of Vandy, whose S&C director, Dwight Galt, is also a Gail Hatch disciple.
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Walk-On [129]
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Re: Batson uses Simmons method. Bama, et al, Hatch method
Jun 10, 2013, 9:14 PM
[ in reply to Batson uses Simmons method. Bama, et al, Hatch method ] |
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First Razz at the same time our O-line improve is the same time we got a knew O-line coach, Second we had a S&C assistant leave Abernathey left and took the head job at furman. Third you can ask anybody that has played football and trained you only get out what you put in. They just got the training table last year and a football players dining hall now with the proper nutrition and more assistants assigned to individual positions you are going to see a big difference The atheletic dept. had coach B well under staffed no money for it they said not with all the new Facilities. oh when you max bench you do bounce. and arching is fine as long as butt dont lift.
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CU Guru [1726]
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Re: Batson uses Simmons method. Bama, et al, Hatch method
Jun 11, 2013, 12:51 AM
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Good point about the training table. I hadn't hear about Batson being understaffed. If so, that would certainly be a mitigating factor.
Caldwell has been around TWO years, not one. Hogan has been around one year.
Bouncing weights off your rib cage doesn't work your muscles. People may do it. But it doesn't make you muscles stronger. As far as arching, I was actually referring to players arching their backs when doing alternating dumbbell curls. They were swinging (not lifting) the dumbbells and arching their backs on the upstroke to help swing (not lift) the dumbbell up. It was ridiculous.
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Orange Blooded [3788]
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Anybody else think
Jun 10, 2013, 3:20 PM
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that IMissCJ might be related to Joey Batson somehow?
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1st Rounder [623]
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Re: Anybody else think
Jun 10, 2013, 4:06 PM
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Lol I'm not, just have a lot of respect for him and the way he carries himself. Very high regarded in his field, just not by the experts on Tigernet
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CU Guru [1726]
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CU Guru [1710]
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Re: You seem to be hyper critical of Mr. Batson. It is clear
Jun 10, 2013, 4:56 PM
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obvious to anyone who is objective that the team is improving each year but yet you continue to pound on the guy. What would you think if everything you did was in public view and there was someone critiquing everything you did on some message board simply because they disagreed with your approach. Seems nonsensical to me but this is all too common on TigerNet.
Go Tigers!
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Walk-On [129]
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Re: You seem to be hyper critical of Mr. Batson. It is clear
Jun 10, 2013, 9:21 PM
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He's never actually watched coach B rep out 460lbs 8 times plus he's older now Runs a #### good work out. Plus wait and see if they start testing teams for steroids before the bowl games they only test at the start of the year by NCAA schools don't test to expensive over $400 a test. You're only tested before season starts to be elligable to play redshirts and gray shirts dont test.
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CU Guru [1726]
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1st Rounder [623]
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Re: I miswrote. Hogan out of Bama. Both had Hatch background
Jun 10, 2013, 5:28 PM
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He played football at Alabama, but didn't work or GA or anything at Bama I don't believe. Regardless, I respect your opinion and you have every right to it, but I just believe some of it is misguided. As far as your problems with Batson's body, that's your problem not mine buddy. Take that up with Coach B, Im sure that would get him good and fired up. Go look back at the pictures of him when he was in his playing and power lifting days. I think he's still a pretty strong guy, but like I said maybe try asking him about that. Very easy to find. Football gates are open every day and the weight room sits right under the West Endzone. I don't think everything Clemson does is assigned to one specific method, although they pull many things from them I'm sure. Every coach uses different things, and in my opinion the lifts Coach B uses can be in your term called "explosive". I also believe they are functional, and helpful in building essential muscle mass and power. And the speed and agility training is another animal, and something that I think the Clemson staff does a dang good job of. But you are entitled to your opinion, and the Hatch method is different and something other coaches use and I respect what you are saying in those terms. I believe both methods have positives and negatives. I believe Coach Batson is a professional and very good at what he does, and I think the addition of that indoor facility is going to help him tremendously. I think everything he does has a purpose and he knows exactly why he is doing everything, along with all of the other strength and conditioning coaches at Clemson. Smotherman had Sisk at Vandy, not Gault also, so it's not like he studied under him or anything. Every coach has their own methods and philosophies and things that they think work. I support the one we have at Clemson now, not blast him over something that I don't know near as much about as he does.
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CU Guru [1726]
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Re: I miswrote. Hogan out of Bama. Both had Hatch background
Jun 11, 2013, 1:39 AM
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I was mostly joking about Batson's belly, hence the smiley face.
I'm sure Batson forgot more about S&C than I'll ever know. I can't perfectly judge his competence. I don't know all of the factors working for and against him. I have no doubt that he's smart, well-respected, diligent, hard-working, a good family man, etc., much like Tommy Bowden-- who also had some success but didn't produce top tier results. From the outside looking in I could see that Tommy Bowden wasn't getting top-tier results and it looks like Batson isn't either. On the other hand, for example, Morris is getting top-tier results so I've had no critique of him whatsoever. Clemson's S&C has just seemed to produce below average results for many years considering the recruited talent.
Having watched every Clemson game forever and having spent every college-football Saturday watching about 15 hours of football, Clemson players seem to have below-average S&C. They get pushed around too much and don't look as chiseled as other teams. IMHO.
Batson is a powerlifting guy (and I have no doubt that he is an expert). But the top teams don't seem to employ the Simmons method which Batson favors. They employ the Hatch method. Is that the decisive factor? I can't say for sure. I can just say that something doesn't seem right.
I wouldn't have posted anything on this article, except that TigersAndCubs made a comment (above) to the effect that you'd have to be a "lunatic" to critique Clemson's S&C. I begged to differ.
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1st Rounder [623]
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Re: Re: I miswrote. Hogan out of Bama. Both had Hatch background
Jun 11, 2013, 11:22 AM
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Ok, so you just admittedly recognized the fact that there were many things you didn't take into consideration when talking ab this. So what ground are you standing on with your Batson arguement? Just articles by others and one video, showing one day of work outs out of how many years that Batson has been here? The Hatch method, without looking at Google, what makes it so much more explosive than other methods? My only arguement with ppl who wanna discuss this is have some knowledge over what you are disputing, don't just believe every article you read. From what I can see, you like the Hatch method because those teams are winning, and I guess Clemson isn't. That's ab as far as your arguement goes, because all of the stuff you are saying ab "explosive" lifts and all of that is simply not true. There are many lifts that are classified as explosive, and once again that goes back to a coaches philosophy
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CU Guru [1726]
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Re: Re: I miswrote. Hogan out of Bama. Both had Hatch background
Jun 11, 2013, 2:53 PM
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ImissCJ's questions in italics.
Ok, so you just admittedly recognized the fact that there were many things you didn't take into consideration when talking ab this.
No. I think I mentioned one POSSIBLE thing-- that Batson MAY be understaffed. But I'd be pretty surprised if that's the case relative to most of our opponents.
So what ground are you standing on with your Batson arguement?
The grounds that I stated above. For as long as Batson has been at Clemson, Clemson players (especially the OLmen) seem to get pushed around-- even by smaller guys, and they seem unchiseled relative to other similar programs. E.g. Clemson's line outweighed lowly Big East WVU significantly but they physically pushed Clemson around. SCar has been physically dominating Clemson for the last 4 years (not just on the scoreboard). Clemson gets very few OLs drafted relative to the recruited talent and comparable teams.
Just articles by others and one video, showing one day of work outs out of how many years that Batson has been here?
No. See previous answer. The results have stunk for a long time. I've read about the training programs and football success of the Gayle Hatch and his coaching tree. I'd like to read about the football success of the Simmons/Batson coaching tree but there doesn't seem to be anything to read other than Simmons' claims to be a consultant to some football teams. Is Batson employing the Hatch method? Has Batson developed a tree of championship football coaches?
The unauthorized videos showed horrible weight-training form across the board and showed that there is a problem with Batson's program. One more piece of evidence explaining the poor on-field performance. Is there some reason that you think those videos were unrepresentative?
The Hatch method, without looking at Google, what makes it so much more explosive than other methods?
The focus of the lifting groups, the #of reps, the range, the flexibility, etc. Google it. Google his tree of coaches. Watch their S&C videos. Watch Clemson's. Watch their performance on the field. I think you'll see.
From what I can see, you like the Hatch method because those teams are winning, and I guess Clemson isn't. That's ab as far as your arguement goes, because all of the stuff you are saying ab "explosive" lifts and all of that is simply not true.
It's not just based on "winning" because that's also a factor of player talent and coaching talent. (E.g. CJ Spiller's or Morris's instant success at Clemson.) Clemson wins a lot of games but they tend to get pushed around a lot more than comparable teams. Clemson gets very few OLs drafted relative to the level of talent Clemson recruits. If you watch a lot of football, I think that's pretty obvious-- just like it was obvious (to me anyway) that Tommy Bowden wasn't top tier. Can I definitively prove that Batson isn't top-tier or that another S&C director would have done better? No. Can I definitively prove that Nick Saban would have won more games at Clemson than Tommy Bowden? No. But there's a lot of compelling evidence pointing in that direction.
There are many lifts that are classified as explosive, and once again that goes back to a coaches philosophy.
Exactly. It's not just the lifts. It's the form used in the lift (like full range or not), the number of reps vs. the weight, the weekly routines, the stretching, the motivation, the instruction, the supervision, etc.
Q n the field, pound for pound, do Batson's results seem top-tier to you? Year after year under Batson, don't you see our guys getting physically beaten by comparable or smaller players?
Q: SCar & UNC have 4X more OL draftees in the NFL, and under Batson, Clemson has had very few OLs drafted-- especially relative the caliber of the recruited talent. Does Batson bear any responsibility at all for that?
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1st Rounder [623]
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Re: Re: I miswrote. Hogan out of Bama. Both had Hatch background
Jun 11, 2013, 3:09 PM
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As far as rep ranges and sets, all of that changes about every 8 weeks for every program, so I'm guessing your problem is with the whole cycle and not just the rep ranges you saw in the shakin the south land article. Anyways, I understand where you are coming from. Your 4 times more lineman stat isn't really that eye popping to me seeing how it is 4 to 1, which doesn't tell the whole story of guys going to the league and just not panning out. How much of that goes against Batson, idk. I don't wanna argue with you on the issue, I like talking to people about it. I see the positives and negatives in both programs, which could be completely wrong on my part anyway but I believe both systems work or there would only be one way to do it. Anyway, I'm done with this thread. Kinda just the same things being said over and over again
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