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YOUR BALANCE
RIP United Methodist Church
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RIP United Methodist Church


Feb 26, 2019, 2:31 PM

United no longer.

Closed hearts, closed minds, closed doors.

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Congrats to them


Feb 26, 2019, 2:34 PM

Had they taken the path you wanted, it truly would've been curtains.

I'm sure some people probably would like some context for this, too.


Message was edited by: camcgee®


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context:


Feb 26, 2019, 2:37 PM

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/united-methodist-church-edge-breakup-over-lgbtq-stand-n976121

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Re: context:


Feb 26, 2019, 2:40 PM



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Re: Congrats to them


Feb 26, 2019, 2:39 PM [ in reply to Congrats to them ]



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how so? the UMC will be an afterthougth in the US


Feb 26, 2019, 2:40 PM [ in reply to Congrats to them ]

it will be a church centered in Central Africa and South Asia with a splattering of homophobes in the American South.

All of the Methodist Seminaries in the US will leave the denomination as will most of the churches. The One Church Plan had overwhelming support from US conferences. The Traditional plan only passed because of the African and Asian conferences.

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At least we know who's fault it is...


Feb 26, 2019, 2:42 PM



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I got a thumbs up from Camcgee by posting a Wiz Khalifa gif


Feb 26, 2019, 2:44 PM

If 5 years ago, anyone would have told me this would happen....




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I do hate Pittsburgh


Feb 26, 2019, 3:21 PM

but I do not hate rap

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We are so opposite. I hate rap and love Pittsburgh.***


Feb 26, 2019, 3:48 PM



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It already basically is


Feb 26, 2019, 2:43 PM [ in reply to how so? the UMC will be an afterthougth in the US ]

But had it continued down the path of other liberal mainline churches, it likely would've ended up just like them. The vitality is not in becoming just like the culture. And, geographically, the vitality is not in progressive areas of the country or world. The UMC should embrace Africa and recognize how staid many American churches have become.

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thats quite a stretch. there are (were) more UMC


Feb 26, 2019, 2:52 PM

churches in this country than any other denomination. Apparently the downfall of the UMC is that it too closely mirrors this country and is split on certain issues almost 50/50. The world and especially this country is becoming more tribal and the UMC is a casualty of it.

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I don't agree with this at all. My church has always been


Feb 26, 2019, 2:52 PM [ in reply to It already basically is ]

inclusive regardless of culture and this is in complete opposition.

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Inclusive is different from being liberal theologically


Feb 26, 2019, 3:20 PM

And stats are stats, however well your particular church is going. The UMC, like other liberal mainline churches, has seen dwindling membership and has become much less relevant than it once was.




https://juicyecumenism.com/2018/03/28/rmn-causes-decline-united-methodist-umc-congregation/


Message was edited by: camcgee®


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It is not theologically liberal to do as the


Feb 26, 2019, 3:29 PM

Lord who walked our earth commanded us.

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And that's what the UMC has chosen to do, thankfully


Feb 26, 2019, 3:30 PM

What you're describing, though, is certainly theological liberalism.

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It is thinking like this that is divisive and the very


Feb 26, 2019, 3:34 PM

reason the UMC has come to this point. It is not culture so much as a refusal to believe.

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Re: It is thinking like this that is divisive and the very


Feb 26, 2019, 3:36 PM



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Wait, what? Refusal to believe what exactly?....


Feb 26, 2019, 3:41 PM [ in reply to It is thinking like this that is divisive and the very ]

If you take all of the New Testament....which side of this debate is refusing to believe what is written?

Surely you can't believe that the current UMC position on homosexuality is unloving just because it doesn't condone it, right? Not allowing a homosexual person to become a minister is not an act of hate.

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It's funny to see people making heterodox claims say...


Feb 26, 2019, 3:56 PM

that it's the orthodox who are being divisive.

In this thread, you have the people who want to change the doctrine of the UMC claiming that keeping the more theologically orthodox doctrine is "divisive" and will be the end of the UMC.


Message was edited by: camcgee®


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It's not funny to see church members


Feb 26, 2019, 4:07 PM

reject other believers in the name of orthodoxy over the word of God.

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The orthodoxy of the UMC specifically does NOT reject...


Feb 26, 2019, 4:14 PM

anyone. Is positively states that anyone is, and should be, accepted to join and participate in the church.

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Except for those few rungs on the ladder where


Feb 26, 2019, 4:19 PM

some folks are not welcome.

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unless that participation includes becoming a minister***


Feb 26, 2019, 4:22 PM [ in reply to The orthodoxy of the UMC specifically does NOT reject... ]



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Who's excluded from that?


Feb 26, 2019, 4:23 PM

People who are openly in sinful relationships, according to the UMC?

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Ever met any Methodist preachers that were divorced?


Feb 26, 2019, 4:28 PM

I have. But we've already dealt with that sin.

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Do you know the circumstance of their divorce?...


Feb 26, 2019, 4:40 PM

the handling ministers getting a divorce is generally handled on the local conference level. And I know ministers have been stripped of their ministry (I think it's called defrocked). My Dad is a Methodist ministers and he's seen this happen before. Where the minister's wife wasn't faithful, I believe the church allows for a divorce with no further inquiry...which is consistent with NT teachings.

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So, they are specifically rejected.***


Feb 26, 2019, 4:29 PM [ in reply to Who's excluded from that? ]



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Yes, just like other people who unrepetantly flout doctrine


Feb 26, 2019, 5:41 PM

Nobody who's a Methodist is being excluded for their status.

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Yes, UMC orthodoxy are specifically rejecting


Feb 26, 2019, 5:49 PM

Got it.

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Rejecting what?


Feb 26, 2019, 5:50 PM

They're not rejecting any people based on who they're attracted to.

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How are they not doing that?***


Feb 26, 2019, 5:54 PM



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A same-sex attracted person can be a minister


Feb 26, 2019, 5:57 PM

They just can't flout doctrine. There isn't just one way be attracted to people of the same sex.

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so if a person is romantically attracted to same sex...


Feb 26, 2019, 6:11 PM

they can't be ordained? or They have to never act on their romantic feelings toward the same sex to be a minister?

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I don't know of any church that says...


Feb 26, 2019, 6:16 PM

you can't join or be welcome just because of who you're attracted to. I also don't think they'd say that somebody couldn't be ordained or shouldn't be able to join or attend because of something they'd done wrong and repented of. It's unrepentant sinning that they'd have a problem with, and for ministers (held to a higher standard than attendees and members) messing up frequently would be a problem.

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Sinning also assumes "choice" and that's the problem here***


Feb 26, 2019, 6:31 PM



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Behavior is always a choice***


Feb 27, 2019, 11:20 AM



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Kind of like breathing.


Feb 27, 2019, 2:34 PM

Sure, I can choose to stop breathing, but it wouldn't be a very healthy thing for me to do.

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Will somebody die if they don't have sex?


Feb 28, 2019, 4:53 PM

What if they just don't have sex with a particular person?

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Heck... Maybe just burn them at the stake.***


Feb 27, 2019, 3:07 AM [ in reply to It's funny to see people making heterodox claims say... ]



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The absence of love isn't hate, it is


Feb 26, 2019, 4:05 PM [ in reply to Wait, what? Refusal to believe what exactly?.... ]

indifference and if UMC policy condoned hate, I wouldn't be a member. While I don't believe UMC policy regarding homosexuality is unloving, there is certainly compassion and empathy there; it however is a resounding rejection of a community of believers...believers that were made by God just like you and me.

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How is it a rejection of a group of believers?....


Feb 26, 2019, 4:15 PM

is it not a rejection of the sin and specifically not the sinner?

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If you committed your life to God and also


Feb 26, 2019, 4:26 PM

were gay, how would you take it? We had a similar problem with women for a while too. Catholic church still does.

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I so much want to make a Lunge-style joke here...


Feb 26, 2019, 4:30 PM

but I won't since I'm trying to be serious.

If I was gay and committed my life to God...and I wanted to be a Methodist, then I would live my life according to God's teaching and be in full faith and fellowship with the local UMC church of my choosing and I would be confident I would be received with grace and love.

If I wanted to be a minister, I would join a different church.

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A Methodist preacher and a layman walk into a bar...


Feb 26, 2019, 5:07 PM

Cereally, though...does your commitment to God as a layperson lesser than if you were allowed to minister?

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Of course not, which doesn't help your point***


Feb 26, 2019, 6:22 PM



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Because the selection of said sin is silly.


Feb 26, 2019, 6:34 PM [ in reply to How is it a rejection of a group of believers?.... ]

UMC isn't rejecting people who eat shrimp. They're not rejecting people who wear clothing with two different fabrics. They aren't rejecting people based on facial hair.

They, like many others in this camp, have cherry-picked one "sin" and made it a point of discrimination. I mean, hell, they can do what they want, but they're pretty short-sighted in this.

They're clinging to a sin written thousands of years ago and ignoring all the others in there.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


I believe you need to research the new covenant...


Feb 26, 2019, 7:53 PM

With all due respect, you're making a very common mistake by those they don't truly understand the teachings of Christ.

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Re: I believe you need to research the new covenant...


Feb 26, 2019, 8:30 PM

I know it quite well. Should we discuss Christ's opinions on homosexuality and acceptance of all?

The anti-homosexual agenda in Christianity today is cherry-picking and contradicts Christ's teachings.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


Hmm...you say you're familiar with the New Covenant...


Feb 26, 2019, 9:01 PM

but you're citing shrimp, hair, and fabric (OT Jewish law) as points of inconsistency.

So...you know....what?

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Re: Hmm...you say you're familiar with the New Covenant...


Feb 26, 2019, 11:14 PM

When Christians argue against homosexuality, what are the first passages they go to? Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13.

So yeah, I'm going to cite shrimp, clothing, etc.

In the New Covenant, who is the one who condemns homosexuality? Paul.

The authenticity of Paul's statements have been questioned by many scholars, some of whom believe he did not intend homosexuality but rather prostitution. As CSO has stated early, we're trying to argue over a book that has been twisted and turned over multiple translations.

For example, 1 Timothy 1:9-10 was likely written much later than Paul's lifetime.

Christ doesn't condemn homosexuality, and that's the simple bottom line to this interpretation. Yes, there is a line where he describes marriage between a man and woman when asked about divorce, but Jesus never claimed homosexuality or gay marriage to be sinful before God.

And that's the simple bottom line. The rest can be written off as archaic Old Testament BS and questionable writings of Paul that probably were mistranslated or weren't even his.

Christianity has likely been condemning homosexuals for centuries based on the sole opinion of an anonymous writer.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


What about Romans and One Corinthians (Trump Joke)?...


Feb 27, 2019, 7:43 AM

As far as I know, Biblical scholars all agree those letters were written by Paul, right?

In the NT homosexuality comes up 3 times, Romans 1, 1 Corinthians 6, and Timothy 1.

I've been through a few studies of Romans and Corinthians, and while there are a few scholars that try to debate Paul's meaning, the overwhelming majority agree with the modern interpretation based on the original Greek text.


Jesus isn't recorded as directly discussion homosexuality...he neither condemns it nor condones it. But his main man Paul certainly does.

And, I believe you're doing some impressive mental gymnastics to interpret Jesus' statement on marriage being between a man and a woman.

In closing, I do not believe your statement below to be at all correct:

"Christianity has likely been condemning homosexuals for centuries based on the sole opinion of an anonymous writer. "

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Re: What about Romans and One Corinthians (Trump Joke)?...


Feb 27, 2019, 7:52 AM

Please show me how I'm wrong on Jesus' statements on marriage. He was responding to a direct question about divorce. BTW, divorce is listed as a far greater sin than homosexuality in the Bible.

As for Romans, as I mentioned, scholars don't agree that Paul meant homosexuality. There is a possibility that "prostitution" got lost in the translations. Again, as CSO has stated, we're foolishly debating texts that have been twisted and turned with multiple translations.

That's quite a stretch to call Paul Jesus' "main man".

In closing, I do not believe your statement below to be at all correct:

But we don't have definitive proof that Paul was the author, nor do we know exactly what was meant through translation. There are too many question marks on Paul's texts in the NT, and even if there weren't, homosexuality is given a far heavier load of scrutiny today than the many, many sins Paul listed.

Why? Why is this one the focus?

And you and I both know that when Christians argue against homosexuality, Leviticus is the first source they run to. The Paul stuff is just an after thought.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


Why in the world is it a stretch to call Paul...


Feb 27, 2019, 9:47 AM

"Jesus' main man"? First, I was joking a little bit using that term.

But in all seriousness, coming from a believer's perspective, Paul/Saul was converted from a persecutor and Pharisee to an Apostle and is considered by most to be the most influential person on the Church Universal, outside of Jesus himself. He was directly chosen by Jesus on the road to Damascus and his every move was directed by Jesus. He wrote almost half of the NT...so yes...he was Jesus' main man :)

And no, I don't agree that Christians primarily go to Leviticus for a basis on homosexual behavior being a sin. I don't think I've witnessed it being referenced in a sermon on the subject in UMC or Baptist churches I've attended.

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Re: Why in the world is it a stretch to call Paul...


Feb 27, 2019, 5:29 PM

He was directly chosen by Jesus on the road to Damascus and his every move was directed by Jesus. He wrote almost half of the NT...so yes...he was Jesus' main man

What, because Paul said Jesus told him? Okay.

If I told you I was walking back from Shem Creek late at night and Jesus came to me to choose me, then I started firing off letters to West Ashley, Summerville, Goose Creek, and Awendaw to tell them how they need to live because Jesus told me to, would you call me his main man?

And the authenticity of who actually wrote his letters is very much up in the air. But here's the big one: Even if Paul WAS the author, he has very poor interpretations of the earlier parts of the Bible, and he completely gets facts wrong in his writing. He often contradicts his points as well.

And, well, finally, I can make an argument that Paul is as real as Captain America, but I doubt you want to hear that one.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


You've drifted well away from the topic at hand...


Feb 27, 2019, 5:55 PM

I'm discussing UMC reasoning, why it's not inconsistent,etc...

You seemed to have morphed into a questioning of the faith in general, which is a completely different discussion.

We're discussing Paul being instrumental in the start of the Church, chosen by Jesus,etc... To do that, I think you have to grant the basics for discussion's sake.

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True, true.


Feb 27, 2019, 7:49 PM

I suppose I've derailed the topic a bit. And probably shouldn't be so invested in the discussion because a private church can do what they please. I just think it's a pretty bad choice, but that's their prerogative.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


Catahoula needs to study some systematic theology


Feb 27, 2019, 11:22 AM [ in reply to What about Romans and One Corinthians (Trump Joke)?... ]

Whenever I see people bring stuff like this up as if it's clever, I know they aren't really serious enough to find out why Christians don't follow Judaic law.

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I always love the go-to smarmy responses...


Feb 27, 2019, 5:20 PM

Whenever a Christian doesn't like how someone else points out flaws or fallacies in theological arguments or interpretations. It boils down to: "Derp derp, I know more about the Bible and you need to study it more. Derp." You just deliver it more eloquently.

I've never been big on the "I've studied more about this than you have" posturing that often happens on this board, but I'm gonna flex the nuts now: I know more about the Bible than you want to admit, and likely have studied it more extensively and know more about it than you have. I continued to study it after I gave up the faith. The FIRST time I read it cover to cover, I was 13.

And just because you don't like how I point out the problems and the fallacious arguments Christians employ, especially in the arena of homosexuality, doesn't mean you know more about it than I do. You should practically be disqualified from even debating this since you actually believe homosexuals face no ill treatment or extra scrutiny of sin from current and past Christians. That's ludicrous and easily destroyed with history.

The passages of Leviticus have ALWAYS been the most quoted by Christians when referencing homosexuality. I know good #### well why Christians aren't SUPPOSED to follow Judaic law. I learned that in Sunday School a long time ago. But that BS doesn't hold water when Christians repeatedly cite Judaic law for justification of discrimination against homosexuals and other legislative engagements.

As for the teachings of Paul, there are so many questions there and Biblical scholars have disagreed for centuries on him and the authenticity of the epistles.

Now I know you may rush to links that claim authenticity, but for every one of those you can provide, I'll give you another that questions it.

So if YOU want to have a real discussion about this, drop the Sunday School Hero act. Just because I've rejected the faith doesn't mean I don't still know its mechanics. And that's quite convenient when you need to punch holes in all the fallacies and silliness.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


Frankly, it just makes you seem unserious***


Feb 28, 2019, 4:54 PM



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As a UMC member


Feb 26, 2019, 5:16 PM [ in reply to Congrats to them ]

I truly dont know how to feel about this. While I support same sex marriage, I stand behind the anti-LGBTQ clergy.

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Please forgive me, @IneligibleUser


Were they about to annul your marriage?


Feb 26, 2019, 2:42 PM

Get it? Because you're a homo and you like the homosex.

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Having grown up Methodist, I have one question


Feb 26, 2019, 2:44 PM

Which group gets dibs on sitting in the back of the church?

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


oh, we now rope off the back three pews***


Feb 26, 2019, 2:58 PM



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Love is greater than faith and hope, yet it seems that


Feb 26, 2019, 2:45 PM

our church leaders disagree on this. Sad, to be honest.

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IT'S ADAM AND EVE, NOT ADAM AND STEVE!!!


Feb 26, 2019, 2:57 PM

ALSO, EVE AND EVE IS ACCEPTABLE IF THEY'RE BOTH AT LEAST 8s. SO SAYETH JESUS.

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I'm a huge fan of Eve and Eve and Steve


Feb 26, 2019, 3:19 PM

and some toys and lubricant and possibly a Shorty

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Indeed, claiming that ideology has a monopoly on "love"...


Feb 26, 2019, 3:22 PM [ in reply to Love is greater than faith and hope, yet it seems that ]

leads to a loss of faith and hope.

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It comes down to how love is defined...


Feb 26, 2019, 3:39 PM [ in reply to Love is greater than faith and hope, yet it seems that ]

for me, I believe the UMC Book of Discipline expresses openness and love.

All persons are welcome to attend and join the UMC and participate in all church activities and sacraments.

Restrictions in regards to homosexuality only concern eligibility to be ordained or appointed into the ministry and those ministers not being allowed to preside over gay marriage.

I don't consider those positions or beliefs to be "unloving." I get the different sides of this discussion. It simply comes down to if you believe homosexuality is a sin or not. I understand people that believe it is not a sin. I don't understand those that don't seem to be able to tolerate those which with they disagree on the issue. And all of a sudden, those that don't favor changing the rules of the church are homophobes, which is ridiculous.

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Why do you get to decide what is and what isn't a sin when


Feb 26, 2019, 3:56 PM

there are so many interpretations of scripture? Why did the authors/editors of the BofD? Which of God's words are greater than the other? Intolerance in this instance is foolish, cause there is bound to be disagreement.

If you remove the nature of this particular sin and look at it on par with all others...the UMC's decision amounts to a rejection of individuals who have given their lives to God. Why should we want to do that?

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Sounds like you should form your own church


Feb 26, 2019, 4:00 PM

You could call it the "Church of Who Decides?" where everybody decides what's right based on what's considered nicer at any given moment.

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Why would I want to do that? Seems like most of


Feb 26, 2019, 4:12 PM

my contemporaries are in agreement with the One Church plan. Sadly the Africans and Asians in the conference are mired in their own poor interpretation of God's word.

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Could it not be just as accurately said that...


Feb 26, 2019, 4:51 PM

those wishing to change the beliefs/stance of the church are mired in interpretation of the word based on changing cultural norms?

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no***


Feb 26, 2019, 5:09 PM



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Sure it could...you just don't want to see it that way***


Feb 27, 2019, 7:43 AM



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Ugh, the whole thing is based in faith in men anyway.


Feb 26, 2019, 4:02 PM [ in reply to Why do you get to decide what is and what isn't a sin when ]

The Bible is removed from God by several layers. Interpretation, voting, translation, editing, etc etc.

It's just a silly thing to argue about. Nobody in P&R is actually speaking to God in English to get specifics. And none of them were around when men first started recording God's exact words and nobody in P&R is reading the original Greek Bible. It is so awkward trying to claim there is a solid rock of pure truth to tether to any of these modern arguments about values. There is NOT ONE BIBLE. It's gone through metamorphosis for over a thousand years.

Obviously Christianity is whatever a person who identifies as Christian wants it to be. That explains the thousands of different versions of it.

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I don't believe that is completely true...


Feb 26, 2019, 4:53 PM

most/many ministers study the original greek Bible and call upon for interpretation and historical context.

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Even the original Greek Bible is several layers removed


Feb 27, 2019, 1:13 PM

from Jesus's life or the original manuscripts.

The current "original" version (latest addition being Revelations) wasn't finalized until the 5th Century AD.

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Was the BoD different when you joined the UMC?....


Feb 26, 2019, 4:25 PM [ in reply to Why do you get to decide what is and what isn't a sin when ]

I joined when I was confirmed in approx 1980-1981 and the position of the church on this matter hasn't changed since.

The church isn't defining sin, the Bible is. I don't see any teaching of Jesus that goes against what Paul writes to the Romans (as one example), nor of the BoD.


In terms of viewing homosexuality as a sin, do you not understand that living a committed life of sin is viewed differently by some as compared to committing a sin on a single instance. Logically, if one believes homosexuality is a sin, then it is logical and consistent that someone that told a lie once and sought forgiveness can be considered for ordainment, but someone that has a committed life of sin cannot. I'm not saying I hold that believe per se, but it is consistent and it certainly is not putting one sin above another.

And, again, the UMC does not reject homosexuals.

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They're just sloganeering***


Feb 26, 2019, 3:59 PM [ in reply to It comes down to how love is defined... ]



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"all welcome" in "all church activities and sacraments"


Feb 26, 2019, 4:21 PM [ in reply to It comes down to how love is defined... ]

"restrictions...concern(ing) eligibility"

"not allowed"


These are conflicting beliefs

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ordainment is not participating in the...


Feb 26, 2019, 4:47 PM

church nor is it a sacrament.

Ministers are not members of the local church they serve.

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Honest question, what?***


Feb 26, 2019, 6:03 PM



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I'll be more direct...


Feb 26, 2019, 6:23 PM

You don't know what you're talking about

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I agree. That's why I was asking.


Feb 26, 2019, 6:33 PM

You don't have to be a ####

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Sometimes I can't avoid it. I may have...


Feb 26, 2019, 7:55 PM

not read your tone correctly.

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No problem, but I was genuinely curious


Feb 26, 2019, 8:29 PM

about what you said in terms of the distinctions you were making about what and wasn't being part of a church meant and how all can be welcome, but at the same time, not.

I should have elaborated more in my question. Sorry.

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All are welcome to join the church and ...


Feb 26, 2019, 9:08 PM

Participate in the sacraments.

Ministers aren't members of the local church and being a minister isn't a form of participating and joining the local church.

So the church welcomes anyone to the church and sacraments (communion and baptism in the UMC).

The church views homosexuality as a sin, so if one admits to living an active life of homosexuality, then they are viewed as an unrepentant sinner and not electable to be ordained or appointed to the ministry.

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gotcha.


Feb 26, 2019, 9:51 PM

And I agree it's their right to allow who they want to be ministers, but it certainly is a mixed message about openness and tolerance to say "all are welcome" but to then call how someone was born a sin for which they must be repentant and then to close them off from helping others. Those two ideas just don't go together, imo.

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Re: It comes down to how love is defined...


Feb 26, 2019, 4:51 PM [ in reply to It comes down to how love is defined... ]

I don't understand those that don't seem to be able to tolerate those which with they disagree on the issue.

A lot of that boils down to how many in power who believe it to be a sin, now and in throughout history, sought to persecute homosexual people because they somehow believed it would destroy them and their society. Even today, it ranges from "they're going to hell" to efforts to deny them the same rights as others.

You don't really see the pro-homosexual camp having that power or making those efforts (and no, giving them equal rights isn't persecuting Christianity).

So that's why one side sees the other as more sinister, and frankly, their track record proves they are.

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Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


Well...no....


Feb 26, 2019, 4:58 PM

you seem to be mixing social/political and the UMC.

In modern times, I don't believe there has been wide-spread condemnation or persecution of homosexuals in the UMC.

Anecdotally, I grew up in about the most conservative Methodist church I can imagine in Aiken. We had a homosexual choir director for many years and a homosexual organist. And the choir director was pretty dang effeminate.

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I was speaking in general, not specifically of the UMC.


Feb 26, 2019, 5:13 PM

There's a common argument of "why can't you respect my belief that homosexuals are sinners" when it's a pretty ###### belief with a very poor record throughout history. It's not really worthy of respect. But as far as a private church's government is concerned, I mean, feel free to do as they will.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


If we're looking at the historical record...


Feb 26, 2019, 5:52 PM

tolerance of homosexual behavior doesn't have a great track record, either. The current iteration, with the vindictiveness/intolerance you've described and the constant pushing of the envelope on sexuality, isn't exactly covering itself in glory.

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So, maybe the last 10 or so years...


Feb 26, 2019, 6:01 PM

Vs. centuries of oppression on the other side? Not sure the score is very even.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


There's more than that


Feb 26, 2019, 6:20 PM

What we call "homosexuality" wasn't really recognized as an identity until recently, and certainly wasn't widely affirmed almost anywhere. However, there's always been homosexual behavior, and that behavior has been more or less tolerated or affirmed in different places and times. Among others, the Ancient Greeks and Romans indulged relationships between older and younger men and boys (typically slaves) as a kind of mentoring relationship.

But the mistake is to treat things as zero sum game.

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I'm aware of those.


Feb 26, 2019, 6:27 PM

My point is that the level of discrimination and intolerance through history isn't even close to comparable. And it really boils down to one side saying, "Hey, let us just do our thing" and the other saying, "No, you're sinners, you'll destroy us all, let's [insert punishment] you."

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


That's the case with everything called sinful, isn't it?


Feb 27, 2019, 11:38 AM

It's only been recently that homosexuality has been viewed as the type of identity it's viewed as today. Gays haven't always been treated well, and many times have been treated very poorly. But that doesn't lead to the conclusion that everybody ought to approve of homosexual behavior, or that it's dangerous to tolerate dissent against homosexual identity and behavior.

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Re: RIP United Methodist Church


Feb 26, 2019, 3:02 PM

Any time there's one of these religious controversies, I thoroughly enjoy reading Facebook comments.

Christian: The Word is infinite and eternal and never changing! There can never be new ideas with an eternal Word! Also, I believe in the rapture.

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Re: RIP United Methodist Church


Feb 26, 2019, 3:35 PM

Why do people go to church in the first place? Can't they just read the Bible? I am not religious, but the couple of dozen times I have been to church it was torture and couldn't wait for it to get over.

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"Opium of the people"


Feb 26, 2019, 3:40 PM

We're high on Jesus!

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Re: "Opium of the people"


Feb 26, 2019, 4:00 PM

You have to pay them though, right?

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Yeah, sort of. Preachers gotta eat to, ya know.***


Feb 26, 2019, 4:14 PM



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Re: Yeah, sort of. Preachers gotta eat to, ya know.***


Feb 26, 2019, 4:44 PM

How much do they make at your place? It seems like a good gig. Do they all go to school for that?

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Yep, gotta go to school for it...also a silly requirement


Feb 26, 2019, 5:21 PM

of believing in Christ and committing one's life to Him. Head Rev makes over 100K, Asst Rev ~ 65K, but we also paid his tuition to pursue a PhD at an Ivy League. Perqs, man.

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Re: Yep, gotta go to school for it...also a silly requirement


Feb 26, 2019, 5:32 PM

Pretty sweet. Positive life for the Rev too.

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Since when do people pay for a PhD?


Feb 26, 2019, 5:44 PM [ in reply to Yep, gotta go to school for it...also a silly requirement ]

And not wanting your pastor to be highly educated does seem in line with your individualistic beliefs.


Message was edited by: camcgee®


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This, evangelicals, and the Catholic Church's MANY issues...


Feb 26, 2019, 3:53 PM

it's almost like these religious institutions aren't the moral arbiters they say they are.

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Re: RIP United Methodist Church


Feb 26, 2019, 4:22 PM

I am a United Methodist and I am for gays attending our church, being a part of the church community and serving beside me, but not as Clergy. I cannot go that route and if my Church brings in a gay pastor, I will for certain leave the church.

I will not apologize and I will not waiver.

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Re: RIP United Methodist Church


Feb 26, 2019, 4:47 PM

What if they wanted to bring in a stripping smoking hot female preacher who did the sermon naked? Would you hang around?

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Not if she was gay!***


Feb 26, 2019, 5:11 PM



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She wouldn't be in church on Sunday.


Feb 26, 2019, 5:52 PM [ in reply to Re: RIP United Methodist Church ]

She and I would still be continuing our Saturday Night Date.

-PhD

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I've been wrong two times, but this isn't one of them.


Ask Nadia Bolz-Webber


Feb 26, 2019, 5:58 PM [ in reply to Re: RIP United Methodist Church ]

Maybe that's the kind of thing some people would like to see more of at UMC churches

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Bruh


Feb 26, 2019, 5:18 PM [ in reply to Re: RIP United Methodist Church ]

MONICA. WE THE SAME REDNECK, WHITE BREAD, ########### MOTHERTRUCKERS

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Please forgive me, @IneligibleUser


100% with you


Feb 26, 2019, 5:50 PM [ in reply to Re: RIP United Methodist Church ]

-Doc Methodist

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I've been wrong two times, but this isn't one of them.


What a petty life.


Feb 26, 2019, 6:28 PM [ in reply to Re: RIP United Methodist Church ]

Then again, my biggest worry on Sunday morning is setting my fantasy football lineup.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


The One Church Plan would have allowed your view


Feb 27, 2019, 9:20 AM [ in reply to Re: RIP United Methodist Church ]

and mine. The Traditional Plan that passed does not. The door is now closed to your gay friends.

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The traditional plan allows that, too


Feb 27, 2019, 11:39 AM

It simply reaffirms orthodox doctrine instead of allowing some churches to propagate heresy.

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Re: RIP United Methodist Church, Nahh not so fast


Feb 26, 2019, 6:26 PM

This just in:

https://www.ksdk.com/article/news/local/united-methodist-church-approves-traditional-plan-rejects-plan-that-would-allow-gay-pastors/63-19cb5ec1-1085-4035-a90a-e9bd838f6ce2

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Re: RIP United Methodist Church


Feb 26, 2019, 6:44 PM

What's the UMC's policy on ministers who sin in other ways?

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Just like any other person, if they repent of their sins...


Feb 27, 2019, 8:01 AM

and believe in Christ, then they are forgiven by salvation in Christ.

The difference for this discussion goes like this:

The UMC believes homosexual activity is a sin.

"Self-avowed practicing homosexuals" are not permitted to be ordained or confirmed into the ministry because they are not repentant of that particular on-going sin.

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That was a big recent issue in the Presbyterian Church


Feb 27, 2019, 8:28 AM

Their way of allowing LGB individuals into the clergy was to basically word the bylaws that "unrepentant sinners" could become Teaching Elders.

I know many people who didn't have a problem with a LGB pastor but really took issue with that wording.

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Re: That was a big recent issue in the Presbyterian Church


Feb 27, 2019, 9:36 AM

flow0440 (since this thing is buried beneath 42 layers of word salad thread)

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yeah, it's a confusing concept for many...


Feb 27, 2019, 9:53 AM [ in reply to That was a big recent issue in the Presbyterian Church ]

I just want the debate in the UMC to be an honest one.

To me, the debate should strictly be on if homosexual behavior is a sin. That is the debatable issue in my mind...not the rest of it.

If it's a sin, then it's clear to me that the UMC position is correct and consistent.

If it's not a sin, then the UMC needs to change.

The whole line about "loving homosexuals" is moot IMO. Of course, we should all love homosexuals...we should love and accept all people into the church and that is what the UMC policy clearly is.

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agree completely that is the debate.


Feb 27, 2019, 9:57 AM

as the end around in PCUSA's case was to allow unrepentant sinners, it sure seemed to open a lot of doors in the bylaws.....bigamists? Pastors busted sleeping with congregants? That's the kind of silly scenarios that were put in play by not having the harder debate you describe.

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Without judgement, I'm just going to leave this here.


Feb 26, 2019, 8:56 PM

Timothy chpt 3 KJV

1. This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

14 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:

15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

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Re: RIP United Methodist Church


Feb 27, 2019, 9:46 AM

For 56 of my 56 years on this earth, I have been a Methodist. I 100% agree in gay marriage in the UMC.

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What does this actually mean?***


Feb 27, 2019, 11:27 AM



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means he's 56 yrs old, duh***


Feb 27, 2019, 12:12 PM



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Re: What does this actually mean?***


Feb 27, 2019, 2:35 PM [ in reply to What does this actually mean?*** ]

1. It means I’m an old fart who has been a Methodist his entire life.
2. It means I have no issue with gay marriage or openly gay people serving in the UMC.

I should add that I am very disappointed in my church today.

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So, as a Methodist, what sexual ethics do you have?


Feb 28, 2019, 4:59 PM

Is it wrong to have sex outside of marriage? Is it wrong to have an open relationship? What about transgenderism? Are women and men created to be different?

If so, why? Why doesn't what's said about sexual immorality in the New Testament matter to you?

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Re: So, as a Methodist, what sexual ethics do you have?


Mar 4, 2019, 3:41 PM

Sorry, just now seeing your post.

1. I have no problem with sex outside of marriage between 2 concenting adults.
2. If you are married then I’m against an open relationship.
3. No problem with transgenderism. I do have some issues with the way the transgender folks are behaving and some of the things they are demanding ie transgender men competing against women in certain sports.
4. Men and women are different.

For your last question I just say asks this. Why is being gay the holy grail of ‘sins’ for a lot of Christians? People sin all the time but being gay is the one ‘sin’ that is always at the top. How about the ‘sin’ of divorce? People promise to honor and obey til death do us part in front of God and all theirs friends but they don’t.

I hope I’ve answered your questions satisfactory. I did try to answer them honestly. I wish some of us could get together and have a beer and discuss some of these issue. For me putting your thoughts down in a short post is very difficult.

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