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All-TigerNet [11472]
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If we do ever decide to depart from Coach Brownell...
Dec 10, 2019, 2:30 PM
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A real good candidate would be Ritchie McKay at Liberty. In fact a college basketball Twitter page posted that the other day. He was the HC at Liberty and then went to be Tony Bennet's top assistant at UVa where he really learned strong defense. He helped Coach Bennet turn that program into what it is today. He is a very good recruiter. He then returned to Liberty and they have been very good since. Besides defense They play good offensive basketball. They upset Miss State as a 12th seed last season and came seconds from upsetting VA Tech to go to the sweet sixteen. They are undefeated so far this season and could be the top Mid Major team in the country not counting Gonzaga and Dayton which have really strong programs all the time. They will probably be ranked in the top 25 very soon. McKay has also been successful as a HC at other schools such as New Mexico, Colorado State and Portland State. Here is that tweet and his profile.
https://twitter.com/BallTalk365/status/1203828569027284993?s=20
http://www.liberty.edu/flames/index.cfm?pid=37305&TeamID=6&CoachID=1507
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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How soon can he start?***
Dec 10, 2019, 2:32 PM
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Orange Blooded [2409]
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Re: How soon can he start?***
Dec 10, 2019, 2:34 PM
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Yep, can he be ready for the weekend?
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All-TigerNet [11472]
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Re: How soon can he start?***
Dec 10, 2019, 2:37 PM
[ in reply to How soon can he start?*** ] |
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Lol. Well, we need to start being proactive with some good mid major coaches out there. The more we keep holding on to Brad the more other schools hire these guys before we can. Virginia was at the same point we are when they hired Tony Bennett. They build a new arena but we're struggling. McKay has that experience there to build off of.
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110%er [5977]
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If we keep Brownell another year then
Dec 10, 2019, 2:38 PM
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DRAD doesn’t care about basketball, because Brownell is who he is a 17-15 coach.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: If we do ever decide to depart from Coach Brownell...
Dec 10, 2019, 2:39 PM
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No. He is a good mid-level experienced coach but past record at Ore State is barely better than Shyatt. He averaged 4 wins at OSU. I am glad on his success at Liberty and getting something going but he would not do well in the ACC. If Clemson was looking for a 4 year rebuild/placeholder coach, maybe but not more than that.
Basically, Brownell's time at Clemson is better than McKay's career.
Actually, if you are going to push for a new coach, Wes Miller at UNCG would be my pick. Still, I am (shocking) still OK with Brownell.
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All-TigerNet [11472]
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Re: If we do ever decide to depart from Coach Brownell...
Dec 10, 2019, 2:45 PM
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No. He is a good mid-level experienced coach but past record at Ore State is barely better than Shyatt. He averaged 4 wins at OSU. I am glad on his success at Liberty and getting something going but he would not do well in the ACC. If Clemson was looking for a 4 year rebuild/placeholder coach, maybe but not more than that.
Basically, Brownell's time at Clemson is better than McKay's career.
Actually, if you are going to push for a new coach, Wes Miller at UNCG would be my pick. Still, I am (shocking) still OK with Brownell.
He had a real bad year at Oregon State but since then he has bern solid, and ever since he cut his teeth as Associate HC with Bennett he is even better.
Liberty was not only 1st in defense for the A-10 last season, but 12th in the country in shooting percentage They could advance really far in the NCAAT in March.
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110%er [6592]
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All-In [44045]
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Do you feel that Brownell is the only one responsible
Dec 10, 2019, 4:06 PM
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for our "10 year rebuild?"
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Legend [16902]
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Re: Do you feel that Brownell is the only one responsible
Dec 10, 2019, 6:45 PM
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Yes.
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All-In [44045]
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So you’re saying that administrative support, budget, fan support, etc. don’t matter at all?!?***
Dec 10, 2019, 9:17 PM
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Legend [16902]
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Re: So you’re saying
Dec 10, 2019, 11:51 PM
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Yes, they all matter. And Brownell has had a decade to lobby for and implement anything he needs to execute his vision for Clemson basketball. Crying about these things on his behalf is pathetic and part of why I react so viscerally to your nonsense.
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All-In [44045]
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It's amazing to me
Dec 11, 2019, 9:17 PM
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that you acknowledge the importance of administrative support, facilities, etc., but don't seem to care that Brownell has only had those things in place for the last few years.
Since those changes have *finally* been implemented, we have had one of our best seasons in program history, won 20 games two years in a row, and have signed one of our best recruiting classes over the past 30 years.
I feel that Brad deserves another year or two to see how he does with this more level playing field. If he doesn't produce, we will know for sure that he's the problem and should find a better coach. If he does produce, then hopefully you will acknowledge that he is a better coach than you gave him credit for.
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Oculus Spirit [96848]
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"could be the top Mid Major team in the country"
Dec 10, 2019, 2:41 PM
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lol yeah right. Guess you're forgetting about Colgate?
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All-TigerNet [11472]
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Re: "could be the top Mid Major team in the country"
Dec 10, 2019, 2:50 PM
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lol yeah right. Guess you're forgetting about Colgate?
Colgate was considered one of the top Mid Major teams but not the best. Liberty under McKay has the wins to prove they are good. They have to play at Vanderbilt and LSU in the next couple of weeks. I'm sure they will beat at least one of them..
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110%er [6592]
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how are things behind the scenes and fan support at Liberty?
Dec 10, 2019, 2:52 PM
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nm
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All-TigerNet [11472]
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Re: how are things behind the scenes and fan support at Liberty?
Dec 10, 2019, 2:56 PM
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nm
They have really good fan support for a smaller mid major program. They actually care about sports. I think it's important to hire a good HC, but the fact he was Bennett's top assistant at UVa in the ACC would be really helpful.
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Walk-On [141]
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Re: how are things behind the scenes and fan support at Liberty?
Dec 10, 2019, 3:05 PM
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I don't understand all the comments re: BB being a great D coach. I watch teams continually shoot unguarded 3's from the corner with no adjustments - period. And points win games. Our O looks disorganized at best. No inside presence. At 7' tall, Jemison is not a factor at all. And Simms is overrated but the best we have, I guess.
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110%er [6981]
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Re: how are things behind the scenes and fan support at Liberty?
Dec 10, 2019, 9:57 PM
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Exactly, there is no plan on offense or defense under Brownell, just five guys out there playing Y ball
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All-TigerNet [11472]
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Re: how are things behind the scenes and fan support at Liberty?
Dec 10, 2019, 3:22 PM
[ in reply to Re: how are things behind the scenes and fan support at Liberty? ] |
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Here is a good interview video from Liberty Athletics site the spring 2018 before their very good season last season. He was already improving the program. He is very smart and has a sly since of humor. He was awarded the Jim Phelan Award as the top HC in Division 1 last season.
https://youtu.be/GKc5yGtqiTI
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All-In [44045]
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Legend [19687]
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Wasn't crappy when Barnes was here
Dec 10, 2019, 8:56 PM
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or OP's last 3 years. If we win, fans show up. We don't, they don't. Happened in football with Hatfield and Tommy West as well
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All-In [44045]
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No, our fan support for basketball is crappy.
Dec 10, 2019, 9:16 PM
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Students camping out for tickets a few times for big games does not equal good fan support.
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Legend [16902]
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Re: No, our fan support for basketball is crappy.
Dec 11, 2019, 5:56 PM
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Too bad that’s not true at all. Here you go, Brad:
Year. Avg attendance
1995 7688
1996 9368
1997 9801
1998 11,107
Rick Barnes avg attendance: 9491
1999 9736
2000 8269
2001 8331
2002 8156
2003 7094
Larry Shyatt avg attendance: 8317
2004 7681
2005 6960
2006 7086
2007 7329
2008 8609
2009 8476
2010 9465
Oliver Purnell avg attendance: 7943
2011 8289
2012 7828
2013 7828
2014 7486
2015 7635
2016 8703
2017 7261
2018 7743
2019 7015
Brad Brownell avg attendance: 7754
Brad averages over 1700 people less per game than Barnes. That’s a lot more than big game tickets a few times. Attendance during the Larry Shyatt era was better. But Brownell shouldn’t be accountable for his lack of ability to engage our fanbase? Next made up talking point?
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All-In [44045]
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Your post clearly shows that average attendance
Dec 11, 2019, 9:27 PM
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for each of our last few coaches has been declining.
Barnes > Shyatt > Purnell > Brownell
It's easy to blame Brad, and I do think his style of play has something to do with the average fan not being as excited to watch us play. However, we can't ignore the major changes that have happened over the last 25 years since Barnes was our coach:
-Ticket prices have gone up for all athletics, including basketball. At a football school where people are spending more on football, some fans will be forced to reduce their attendance at less important sporting events (such as basketball)
-All of the games are on TV now. In the not-too-distant past, that wasn't the case at all.
-Fans have more interests and activities to occupy their time. There simply wasn't as much to do in Clemson, Greenville, etc. when Rick Barnes was our coach compared to now.
Success will obviously cause more fans to show up. However, we didn't see a significant increase in attendance during our Sweet 16 season, or the year that followed. Heck, our game last January against Virginia was a huge deal, and our attendance was awful. We were a preseason top 25 team, UVA was top 10, we were coming off of our Sweet 16 season, and that morning was our parade for the football national championship. It was a perfect setup to have a packed house at Littlejohn, and we didn't even come close. Blame Brownell all you want, but a fan base that cares about basketball even a decent amount would've shown up for that game.
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Legend [16902]
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Re: Your post clearly shows that average attendance
Dec 11, 2019, 11:44 PM
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Because ?? almost??no one ?? believes ?? Brownell ?? can ?? get ?? it ?? done ??!
That they showed up for Shyatt undercuts every point you make. And they came back out once Purnell started making the tourney. Basketball fans are a small fraction of the Clemson sports fan base and the Brownell decade has killed whatever spirit they had left. It’s in the numbers. The reopening of Littlejohn was the last gasp - a significant bump in attendance and we sucked. Even the Sweet 16 barely produced any enthusiasm because everyone knows we are what we are under this coach.
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Orange Blooded [2420]
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Re: Well we have crappy fan support for basketball
Dec 16, 2019, 8:28 AM
[ in reply to Well we have crappy fan support for basketball ] |
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It’s not crappy until the program doesn’t produce, then it’s crappy. Win or have a great product losing and people will come. Bikini girls get more looks than old baggy clothes. Just saying.
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Legend [16902]
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All-In [27366]
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Yeah, I'll be waiting at my computer...
Dec 10, 2019, 3:33 PM
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110%er [7555]
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Re: If we do ever decide to depart from Coach Brownell...
Dec 10, 2019, 3:56 PM
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Judge Keller ain’t going to like this one bit......be prepared for some more excuses coming your way......Go Tigers!!!
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All-In [44045]
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Why wouldn't I like it?
Dec 10, 2019, 4:05 PM
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Nothing wrong with discussing potential new coaches in the event that Brad is no longer our coach.
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Legend [16902]
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Re: Why wouldn't I like it?
Dec 10, 2019, 6:49 PM
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Because you don’t think there is any reality where that should happen. Brownell is boundlessly loyal despite all Clemson’s shortcomings and inadequacies and there appears to be no metric of success low enough that we should fire him. So we’re in this forever. Why discuss impossibilities.
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Oculus Spirit [76937]
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Re: Why wouldn't I like it?
Dec 10, 2019, 7:22 PM
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What is the metric of acceptability, incumbent coach or otherwise? I don’t disagree that wanting better isn’t too much to ask, but what should Clemson alumni and fans reasonably believe is where this program should be?
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Oculus Spirit [76937]
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Re: Why wouldn't I like it?
Dec 10, 2019, 7:22 PM
[ in reply to Re: Why wouldn't I like it? ] |
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What is the metric of acceptability, incumbent coach or otherwise? I don’t disagree that wanting better isn’t too much to ask, but what should Clemson alumni and fans reasonably believe is where this program should be?
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110%er [6981]
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Re: Why wouldn't I like it?
Dec 10, 2019, 10:14 PM
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I’ve said for many years in a ten-year span a successful church coach at Clemson would make the NCAA tournament five times, and at least be competitive in the conference. We have been no threat to win the ACC under Brownell.
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Oculus Spirit [76937]
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Re: Why wouldn't I like it?
Dec 10, 2019, 11:54 PM
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I guess what I’m asking is what do we as alumni and fans base our expectations on beyond desire.
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Legend [16902]
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Re: Why wouldn't I like it?
Dec 10, 2019, 11:56 PM
[ in reply to Re: Why wouldn't I like it? ] |
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I concur. A 50% NCAA bid ratio would be a good start and a fairly low hurdle. I’d also argue that not being NIT qualified should be almost non-existent - like once a decade. It’s inexcusable but Brownell manages it 40% of the time. Teams should only fail to make the NIT the season before firing a coach and the first season under a new coach. If its happening between those events you really don’t give a #### about basketball.
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Oculus Spirit [76937]
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Re: Why wouldn't I like it?
Dec 10, 2019, 11:59 PM
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I’ll let you pick which statement you made. Based on?
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Legend [16902]
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Re: Why wouldn't I like it?
Dec 11, 2019, 12:20 AM
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I don’t understand this question particularly since I wasn’t respondIng to you. If you want to know my basis I’d say because two of our last three coaches before Brownell did it. Barnes (inheriting what was described at ACC media days as the worst team in the history of ACC basketball) was 100% NIT qualified and 75% NCAA qualified. Purnell only missed the NIT in his first season for an 86% qualified rate. Was 3/7, 1 off the 50% pace, on NCAA bids but most certainly have gotten to 50/50 had he stayed for year 8.
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Oculus Spirit [76937]
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Re: Why wouldn't I like it?
Dec 11, 2019, 10:29 AM
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Thank you. You answered my question.
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110%er [5972]
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Can they beat Colgate***
Dec 10, 2019, 4:07 PM
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All-TigerNet [11472]
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Re: Can they beat Colgate***
Dec 10, 2019, 4:20 PM
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Yes they can. They have already beaten a couple of good mid major teams including winning a tournament.
Here is good older video of McKay when he returned to Liberty after his stint at UVa. Really indicated that time was great for him. Strong Christian faith like Dabo and Bennett. You would really love his coaching, Judge:
https://www.liberty.edu/alumni/alumni-news/?MID=179270
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CU Medallion [65440]
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Solid as a Moon Pie....
Dec 10, 2019, 6:21 PM
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All-TigerNet [11472]
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Re: Solid as a Moon Pie....
Dec 10, 2019, 6:37 PM
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Here is a good interview of McKay with the NCAAT media before his first game over Miss State. Through out this especially at the end he talks about building a good program and not a goid team especially after coaching at UVa. Sometimes I think Brad looks to build good teams but not a program:
https://youtu.be/mcv0PPye4T8
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Legend [19687]
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I honestly think when that day comes we need
Dec 10, 2019, 7:46 PM
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to go in a totally opposite direction. Hire a proven, veteran coach, like Tennessee did with Barnes. Who is the question? Motta would be at the top of my list. Pay him and make this his last stop.
Every coach we've hired since Tates Locke has been stepping up. If we're ever going to turn basketball around, we need a guy with some clout.
That, or get one of our own. Hire Greg Buckner. Guys who were NBA assistants are coming to the college ranks. Hardaway, Stackhouse, Ewing. Granted, they're bigger names. But it comes down to recruiting, and the NBA is the dream of most kids.
When that day does come though, it's time to throw caution to the wind and do something radically different.
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All-TigerNet [11472]
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Re: I honestly think when that day comes we need
Dec 10, 2019, 8:05 PM
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to go in a totally opposite direction. Hire a proven, veteran coach, like Tennessee did with Barnes. Who is the question? Motta would be at the top of my list. Pay him and make this his last stop.
Every coach we've hired since Tates Locke has been stepping up. If we're ever going to turn basketball around, we need a guy with some clout.
That, or get one of our own. Hire Greg Buckner. Guys who were NBA assistants are coming to the college ranks. Hardaway, Stackhouse, Ewing. Granted, they're bigger names. But it comes down to recruiting, and the NBA is the dream of most kids.
When that day does come though, it's time to throw caution to the wind and do something radically different.
McKay is a veteran head coach and has experience at a top assistant at one of the best programs in the ACC.
Matta has shown no interest in returning to coaching since his health problems. If he has, he would have returned by now.
Don't hire a coach with no Head Coaching experience despite what success they had at Clemson as players and then the NBA. That is the worst thing we need.
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Legend [19687]
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We need an ace recruiter, period
Dec 10, 2019, 9:00 PM
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Where has McKay proven that at? Sure, he coached with Bennett. A bunch of folks coached with Roy and K as well, how many went on to success?
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All-TigerNet [11472]
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Re: We need an ace recruiter, period
Dec 10, 2019, 9:11 PM
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Where has McKay proven that at? Sure, he coached with Bennett. A bunch of folks coached with Roy and K as well, how many went on to success?
He won an NCAAT game at Liberty something Brownell, Purnell, Barnes, and Ellis did not do before they came to Clemson.
He might win another game or two at the end of the season. He will have taken Liberty to three straight 20 win seasons after this season too.
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Legend [16902]
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Re: I honestly think when that day comes we need
Dec 10, 2019, 11:58 PM
[ in reply to I honestly think when that day comes we need ] |
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100% agree. Would love to throw the Brinks truck at Greg Marshall though. I know it’s a pipe dream but part of me thinks he do it as an FU to South Carolina for passing him over when he lobbied for the job.
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CU Medallion [65440]
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I have heard Marshalls name bandied about by you and
Dec 16, 2019, 9:38 PM
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others for years. What is so special about him?
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All-TigerNet [11472]
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Liberty won at Vanderbilt last night and now is 12-0...
Dec 15, 2019, 10:18 PM
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This team is only one of 6 teams still undefeated in major college bkball. Told you McKay would be a great choice to replace Brad here.
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Replies: 50
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