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Replies: 38
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110%er [5776]
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Having always assumed churches like NewSprings were a bit
Apr 20, 2014, 7:26 PM
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outside "my comfort zone", I was thinking this week about the "proper" methods a church should use to pursue their mission and how completely unqualified I am to have an opinion on such. Somewhat by accident today, my wife and I attended her daughter's new church in Woodland Hills, California. The congregation included some number of Hollywood types. And the pastor and his wife apparently met in an acting class many years ago. The service was extraordinarily different for me --- intense music, presentation of a play with a stage setup as a courtroom, yet a very solid sermon about the meaning of Easter that in and of itself would have passed muster with any Southern Baptist Church I have attended. A few thousand residents of Woodland Hills were in a single location doing good things on Easter Sunday and they were very excited to be there. It was hard to find anything wrong with that. But I would imagine anyone who believes NewSprings is over the line with the Clemson football team would become a much greater defender of what is being accomplished by having attended this service with me today in California.
http://ihpchurch.org/
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Commissioner [955]
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The way I see it, as long as the message
Apr 20, 2014, 7:50 PM
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is the same and it gets people talking about Jesus, then I have no problem with different worship styles. I grew up in a standard small town Church, and was skeptical of modern worship styles, but after attending New Spring and Clemson FCA, I love modern style. For me, I feel like it gets me closer to Jesus. Some people may feel closer to Jesus in a small church with an organ, and that's awesome. We're all different, but we all have the same goal.
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Hall of Famer [24724]
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And some people feel closer to god
Apr 20, 2014, 7:57 PM
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In a mosque synagogue etc.
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110%er [5093]
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Honestly, most churches get it wrong unfortunately
Apr 20, 2014, 8:02 PM
[ in reply to The way I see it, as long as the message ] |
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Matthew 21:13
And He said to them, "It is written, 'MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER'; but you are making it a ROBBERS' DEN."
I mean, of course a church should be a place to learn the gospel, but the primary focus should be prayer. I think most churches lose sight of this.
And even though I do attend Newspring. The focus on tithing does bother me
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Heisman Winner [119516]
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^^^^^cheapskate^^^^^***
Apr 20, 2014, 8:06 PM
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Heisman Winner [119516]
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110%er [7229]
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Re: We forgive you since pumping gas
Apr 20, 2014, 10:35 PM
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I hate to say it, but the Gamecock fan is correct. NOWHERE in the BIBLE does Jesus or Paul command such actions as follows:
Building Multi-Million Dollar Buildings
Purchasing Private Jets
Building Ark Replicas
Selling Books, DVDs, CDs
Funding an activity bus
Erecting a multi-million dollar baptism pool
Collecting a Tithe to fund all of the nonsense above
What Jesus and the Apostle Paul said was to do the following
Preach the Gospel to all of the living creatures on the Earth starting with your own home and community. Then and only then once all have heard the good news should we be branching out to other nations.
Care for the poor and needy. The Christian Church of America brings in $1.4Trillion annually in untaxed revenue and we can't even prevent starvation in our own town. 50,000 children under the age of 5 will starve to death this year alone in the US. Now, tell me again what your God did for you? How about we focus on why God blesses someone instead of the abundance that has been rendered so that an individual can commit acts of self indulgence while telling the world that God gave them wealth. Utterly pathetic, in fact I believe that Paul would burn down most Churches of today and Christ wouldn't even be allowed in them if he were here on Earth. I think he would be ushered out by the ushers because of telling the truth.
Care for the Orphans and Widows.... Well, the US Govt is doing more in the name of Obama than the Church is doing for our communities. I can't say that I blame atheist as we give them 1 heck of an argument.
Finally, Christ left one commandment. TO LOVE simply the only commandment there is. Why do the churches subject us to Old Covenant practices. When they do then it is an insult to Christ and what he accomplished on the cross for humankind. If we are going to subject ourselves to religious slavery then we are worshiping the Pharisee and the Sadducee. Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses. If I fulfill my obligation of payment on an auto loan in March then there is no need for an April Payment. Think about it and follow the money.
In fact, ask yourself the more important question...." Where did the Church of Paul go? It doesn't exist anymore.
Also, question the fact that if your head pastor lost the building and the Church van would he still preach the gospel or take a job at the local factory and abandon his task?
That is all I will say. There are many more things wrong with the Church, but this covers tithing.
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CU Guru [1142]
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Re: We forgive you since pumping gas
Apr 21, 2014, 9:26 AM
[ in reply to We forgive you since pumping gas ] |
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Hello? Pumping gas as an insult is only outdated by say, 30 years, since most everyone pumps their own gas. However, it's sad to admit that making sport of a person's livelihood, and demeaning workers in the fast food market, still appear to be a big hit with a lot of pompous and asinine Tiger fans.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: We forgive you since pumping gas
Apr 21, 2014, 9:46 AM
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I said no pickles
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Zealot [868]
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Re: Honestly, most churches get it wrong unfortunately
Apr 20, 2014, 8:17 PM
[ in reply to Honestly, most churches get it wrong unfortunately ] |
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It's in the bible plain and clear that you should give 10%. I've been a southern baptist all my life and have never been to Newspring. What do they say about tithing that bothers you?
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Heisman Winner [119516]
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Jeez, skeets...he's a coot
Apr 20, 2014, 8:33 PM
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what else do ya need to know?
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110%er [5093]
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Yes, Leviticus 37:30-33
Apr 20, 2014, 10:07 PM
[ in reply to Re: Honestly, most churches get it wrong unfortunately ] |
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States we should tithe 10%
Leviticus 19:27 bans you from shaving.
Leviticus 11:8 prevents you from touching a football.
My issue with the Newspring tithe is that Perry stated the leviticus law does apply to us as Jesus freed us from these demands. He even said we didn't have to follow 19:27 or 19:28 (tattoos).
Then a few weeks later stated we must follow leviticus 37:30-33.
You can't pick and choose for your own convenience.
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CU Guru [1099]
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Re: Yes, Leviticus 37:30-33
Apr 20, 2014, 10:18 PM
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exactly.
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Legend [19567]
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Actually, the tithe predates the law by at leat 450 years
Apr 20, 2014, 10:52 PM
[ in reply to Yes, Leviticus 37:30-33 ] |
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In Genesis 14 Abraham, then Abram, tithed to the priest of the Most High God, Melchizadek. Jacob also offers a tithe in Genesis. It was God's standard before the law, and during the law. And since Christ isof the order of Melchizadek, I believe it appiles today. In the law during certain years the tithe actually reached 30% to make sure strangers, widows and orphans were cared for adequately
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110%er [7229]
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Re: Actually, the tithe predates the law by at leat 450 years
Apr 21, 2014, 9:15 AM
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You missed the entire point. PAUL when he erected the FIRST CHURCH did not teach nor collect a tithe. He enforced the message of religious freedom through CHRIST. This doesn't mean that we have the freedom to choose a religion. Nope, this means we are free from RELIGION. The Church has returned to bondage under the law in the Land of Egypt. Why did Jesus free us if we are simply going to subject ourselves to nonsensical laws and practices. WE ARE FREE...
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Legend [19567]
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He did not teach to not tithe either
Apr 21, 2014, 11:08 AM
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if you'll notice in 2 Cor 8-9 the money being collected is not going to the local church but to support others elsewhere. If tithing was God's first fruit standard before the law, and during the law, why would it not be now? If the actual Melchizadek received a tithe, why would not Christ who is of the order of Melchizadek? What the New Testament actually teaches is give all you have to give, as in the widow and the 2 mites. She gave far more than 10%
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Legend [19537]
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Sacrificing animals also predates the law of moses.
Apr 21, 2014, 11:04 AM
[ in reply to Actually, the tithe predates the law by at leat 450 years ] |
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Why does he not teach his church to go home and kill a cow?
Can't pick and choose which "predated" laws he wants to follow. Of course his congregation sacrificing animals doesn't get him money.
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Legend [19567]
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Because Jesus is now "the sacrifice once and for all"
Apr 21, 2014, 11:10 AM
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all of those animal sacrifices pointed toward Christ, no need to do so since He offered Himself for all of us
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Legend [19537]
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Re: Because Jesus is now "the sacrifice once and for all"
Apr 21, 2014, 11:11 AM
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Jesus said he came to "fullfill the law". Not just sacrifice. You can't say that tithing requirements still apply and not sacrifice.
He's false preaching.
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Legend [19567]
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He said "Fulfil, not to abolish." The principle of the tithe
Apr 21, 2014, 11:16 AM
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came before the law. The argument that because it's of the law is a red herring, since it predates the law. Jesus fulfilled the sacrificial requirement of the law, by giving His life for all. We have freedom in Christ for sure, but do the Ten Commandments also go away? The Old and New Testament are full of teachings on first fruits. Since all we have is from God, a first fruit of what we have is a consistent principle taught throughout scripture
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Legend [19537]
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Re: He said "Fulfil, not to abolish." The principle of the tithe
Apr 21, 2014, 11:20 AM
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SACRIFICE WAS BEFORE THE LAW!!
God said he would "form a new covenant" with his people and "write the laws on their hearts". Jesus said he came to "fulfill the law, not to abolish it"...Meaning once you are saved the old law is in your heart. God also said the old laws did not work.
You can not say the crucifixion takes care of sacrifice but not tithing nor vice versa. You can not pick and choose what you want to follow from the old covenant.
There are plenty of things that predated the law that were fulfilled including Sabbath laws, sacrifice, tithing, etc.
I'm sorry but your preacher is making things up to justify his stance on tithing. Hate to break it to you.
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Legend [19567]
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The law was the old covenant, not what preceeded it
Apr 21, 2014, 11:29 AM
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Sacrifice was required of God before the law, during the law, and now after the law through Jesus. It's not picking and choosing, it's being consistent, as tithing was a principle before the law, during the law, and yes, I do believe now, as it has always been God's standard. The law had a distinct purpose, never to save. It's purpose was to reveal we could never keep God's law and thus were sinners and needed forgiveness and a Savior. Paul called it our "school teacher." it revealed our sin. We must be consistent in looking at all of scripture, not just the law. What preceeded it taught the same things the law did and that the New Testament does now. In the end, it all comes down to our hearts
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Legend [19537]
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Re: The law was the old covenant, not what preceeded it
Apr 21, 2014, 11:43 AM
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But you're not being consistent.
You're claiming that the only law the crucifixion full filled was sacrifice and the Bible tells us different.
Both Sacrifice and Tithing were principles practiced by the Israelites before the Law but were still part of the law during the time of Moses. They were still part of the old covenant whether you and Noble choose to believe so or not. Noble is choosing to ignore tithing as part of the law but not to ignore the others that pre-dated as part of the law.
The crucifixion wasn't just for sacrifice. We can read our Bible's to see that. Nor was 10% ever taught in the New Testament to be as part of the New Covenant.
"Sacrifice was required of God before the law, during the law, and now after the law through Jesus."
And tithing was required of God before the law, during the law and now after the law as part of accepting Jesus as our Savior and the laws written on our hearts. You can't say sacrifice is still part of the law but we don't have to sacrifice any longer and then turn around and say tithing is still part of law but we realty do have to tithe...
Sounds like an agenda driven interpretation to me. It's just offensive IMO. Sorry.
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Legend [19567]
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Israel did not exist until Jacob's 12 sons. Abraham was
Apr 21, 2014, 12:04 PM
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their father but he, nor Isaac were or were ever called Israelites. Jacob had his name changed to Israel by God, and the nation came from his children. Their was no nation of Israel prior to this. The law did not come until 450-500 years after the nation of Isreal existed, when it was given to Moses adter 430 years of captivity ijn Egypt. So the tithe, as the sacrifice, preceeded the law. I don't agree with how Noble teaches this, as he uses the teaching to coerce giving. Churches like this actually teach their is a curse for not tithing, and Jesus removed the curse of the law from which they get this teaching.
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Legend [19537]
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Then it sounds like we agree....
Apr 21, 2014, 1:10 PM
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Using the "tithe predates the law" argument to entice your followers to give you money is false preaching and I would point that follower to the teachings of Paul in Romans 16:17
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Legend [19567]
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I believe what a person gives is between them and God, but
Apr 22, 2014, 12:45 AM
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also believe the tithe applies today. Any time we preach to generate funds though is not the way to do it. I don't know what the folks at the church I serve give and don't want to. It's not my responsibility to make them do something, but simply proclaim the truth as I understand it and lead by example
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Associate AD [813]
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My two cents...
Apr 22, 2014, 9:17 AM
[ in reply to Then it sounds like we agree.... ] |
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In the OT law, it was required to have a "fence" type boundary on one's rooftop b/c time was spent on roof tops. Today, we are not under that law, but we are still wise in applying the principle in its "general equity." In other words, as guests come to my house, it is wise and loving to make sure my home is a safe place.
Do you not see a difference between "having to follow a giving law" vs. "wisdom in following principles that came from God?"
First fruits, the tithe and generous giving are all principles we find in the OT Scripture. The NT does not get specific in teaching on the tithe, though Jesus does not condemn it. Jesus does affirm the giving of the poor widow that was "everything she had" which was 100%, not 10%. Paul does not hammer on the tithe with the early church, but the early church was blowing the lid off of the tithe. They were selling and collecting to meet the needs of the body and to provide for the ministry that was going forth along with taking care of the needs of the apostles.
So many argue that there is no need to tithe b/c the NT does not teach to it very specifically and they act as if the principle of giving that God has laid down in human history are irrelevant. That sure does appeal to me, b/c I could afford a new car, or season tickets if I could buy in to my tithe being irrelevant. But then, I realize that the NT does go very far in regards to "generous giving" and "giving in proportion to what you have."
Why would we not consider the first fruits and tithe as God's pathway to the kind of generous giving that is described throughout the NT? Why would the "proportion" that we begin with not be the tithing principle that God gave back in ancient history? Would God desire of we who have written testimony of person and work of Christ and the redemption in Him to give "less" in our proportions than he did of His OT Covenant people Israel?
God owns it all. Why are we so uncomfortable with a tithe? That would seem to be the training wheels for becoming generous givers for Kingdom work and provision. We are not limited to only tithe. But I have never met a "generous" giver who at some point in life was not stretched by the tithing principle. They started there, and then by the grace of God became such generous givers that could not give enough towards disciple making.
Think about this: if you have a church home; how might that church home function in regards to it worship and work, hiring trained and equipped staff, etc. if everyone adopted a "tithe is irrelevant attitude?" Something to consider. In other words, we'll just put a $20 in the plate each week and that our sacrifice of worship and praise.
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110%er [5093]
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No one is arguing that you should not give to
Apr 22, 2014, 10:53 AM
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Th church to support it and ensure uh continues to operate.
However, that is a much different approach than preaching God requires you to give 10%.
Newspring is doing well financially. Maybe those extra funds could be better spent elsewhere funding other organizations without the significant wealth of Newspring?
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110%er [7229]
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Re: Honestly, most churches get it wrong unfortunately
Apr 20, 2014, 10:42 PM
[ in reply to Re: Honestly, most churches get it wrong unfortunately ] |
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Maybe you should read 1Corinthians and understand the reason why Paul didn't teach or collect a tithe in the Church. Tithing is a Jewish practice. All Paul did was direct the church to give as you can. Nothing about a % at all. Where did JESUS command for Christians to TITHE? It's simple, HE DOES NOT COMMAND SUCH. However, I wouldn't mind tithing just so long as I know it doesn't go to pay the utilities, building mortgage, ark replicas, coffee shops, activity vans, and many other pointless things in matters of teaching and spreading the Gospel.
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Associate AD [813]
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Then I assume...
Apr 22, 2014, 10:22 AM
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that you go to a church that has no facility, no lights, no air condition/heat, no water, no coffee, vans or buses for activities? Is that correct? If so, I can respect that for sure, but still would not understand your problem with tithing and giving generously for those things you value that your church does budget for (i.e. pastors, mission support, mercy ministry needs inside/outside church, etc.).
If you do go to an actual church with an actual facility, utilities, etc...then your actions contradict your words.
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All-In [29036]
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One thing I can guarantee
Apr 20, 2014, 8:46 PM
[ in reply to Honestly, most churches get it wrong unfortunately ] |
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Is every church, just like every person, gets it wrong.
All of us may well be trying to get it right, and no doubt many folks think they do, but in the end any organization that involves people in pursuit of the Holy will make mistakes.
We're flawed and fallible, begging for Grace. Or at least that's my take.
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Enthusiast [149]
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Ten 'campuses' that make $50 million untaxed money?
Apr 21, 2014, 4:21 AM
[ in reply to Honestly, most churches get it wrong unfortunately ] |
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Couldn't a real man of God who cares about spreading the Gospel open 10x as many 'churches' without all the pomp and circumstance. I guess Perry forgot that Jesus was born into a social class where the mortality rate for newborns was at least 50% and that his disciples consisted of some shady characters or that Jesus broke bread with some of the most despised sinners. I think the last thing JC would ever care about is laser lights, tight t shirts, music, money or chastising people with different beliefs on how to worship. I always thought JC cared about saving the children of his/our Father. I guess I misread the part where Jesus flips out over the money exchangers in the Temple and flips over their tables.
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110%er [7913]
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CU Guru [1552]
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within reason, there is also the logical but oft overlooked
Apr 21, 2014, 10:29 AM
[ in reply to The way I see it, as long as the message ] |
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aspect that you cannot violate the will of God (which is to bring Him glory or reveal His true character through our holy actions) in order to accomplish the goal of giving a message.
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Orange Blooded [2721]
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Re: Having always assumed churches like NewSprings were a bit
Apr 21, 2014, 12:50 AM
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Were you guys at In His Presence Church? I was an associate pastor at a church in Woodland Hills for a few years ago and have several friends who attend there. It is quite a bit different that churches from my upbringing in the south, but as it seems you have, I have been majoring in the minors much less over the past several years and appreciate a lot of the diversity amongst various Christian communities. Sounds like it was a great celebration of the LORD. HAPPY Easter!
P.S. yes, after typing this I saw the web link below for the church. Haha
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Orange Blooded [2394]
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My daughter has recently been going to Five Points in
Apr 21, 2014, 1:11 AM
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Easley, SC with a couple of friends of hers. It is a growing, modern style church, and when I was telling a good friend/distant relative/big Tiger fan about this, he pointed out to me how he and his mom, your normal standard Baptist church attendees, feel those churches and churches like those are "cults". I respect his opinion but pointed out to some disagreement that aren't all churches cults?
Cult
a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
To my knowledge, there is nothing that has went on at that church except preaching the Good Word. I wasn't trying to argue with him, but just ask if he ever considerd he is just as much a part of a cult as a Five Points or a New Springer is. I don't see the difference.
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Legend [19567]
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Dean is solid, and a former Tiger football player as well***
Apr 21, 2014, 11:12 AM
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Devotee [322]
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Re: Having always assumed churches like NewSprings were a bit
Apr 21, 2014, 4:00 PM
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I attended a church servive in NYC on Palm Sunday severla years ago. It was different for me as well, especially growing up in the belt buckle of the Bible Belt and attending very conservative churches my entire life.
The service had some "celebrities" that attended (soap stars, local news people) and had a drama bit along with a participatory element of Palm Sunday. Different, but I liked it
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Starter [374]
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I'm confused.
Apr 22, 2014, 9:32 AM
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I looked at the forum heading. It says "Tiger Football"
But no one is talking about football.
wat
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