|
Replies: 61
| visibility 1
|
All-Conference [406]
TigerPulse: 47%
Posts: 693
Joined: 6/3/12
|
Im sick of hearing people blame our defensive woes on talent
Sep 23, 2012, 11:15 AM
|
|
or lack there of.
We're 93 in total D and 68 in scoring D. Since points is what really matters, we'll use that stat here. We've played FSU, thats it. Auburn is terrible on offense and we played a mid major and FCS school at home. Again, we're 68 in scoring D. Are you people suggesting there are 67 other schools with more talent than us on D? I dont believe that at all.
The D's problem is coaching. I remember just 7 short years ago in 2005 (Vics first year) when we were littered with 2 and 3 stars and finished with a top-25 D. He had ONE top-25 class to work with and they were true FR. I was on that team and I can remember Vic being incredibly frustrated with his players. He wanted to run a more aggresive set than he did, but didnt have the talent he needed to do it so he adapted and ran strictly zone coverage. That's coaching. He adapted to his players and their strengths. And before you complain about Vic, get your facts straight. His Ds finished top-25 in every major D category every year he was here. That was 4 times. Before him, that only happened ONCE in Clemson history. His last two years we had a top-10 D nationally.
I see a little variation, but for the most part, Venables is trying to run the same crap that didnt work under Steele. He needs to find something that these players can do right.
|
|
|
|
 |
Legend [19576]
TigerPulse: 84%
Posts: 17247
Joined: 7/25/07
|
Re: Im sick of hearing people blame our defensive woes on talent
Sep 23, 2012, 11:17 AM
|
|
So let me get this straight. If you have a group of kids who can't read because their last teacher sucked, if they can't read a quarter of the way through the next fall it's the new teacher's fault?
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-Conference [406]
TigerPulse: 47%
Posts: 693
Joined: 6/3/12
|
Didnt seem to affect Chad last year when he inhereted...
Sep 23, 2012, 11:20 AM
|
|
a dismal Napier offense. No difference here with Venables inhereting a terribel Steele D.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [14090]
TigerPulse: 78%
Posts: 25448
Joined: 7/28/05
|
Yeah Napier couldn't coach his way out of a paper bag with a
Sep 23, 2012, 11:22 AM
|
|
knife.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [19576]
TigerPulse: 84%
Posts: 17247
Joined: 7/25/07
|
Re: Didnt seem to affect Chad last year when he inhereted...
Sep 23, 2012, 11:23 AM
[ in reply to Didnt seem to affect Chad last year when he inhereted... ] |
|
Big difference. Morris inherited fantastic players and Sammy Watkins. BV doesn't have that luxury right now. for a former Clemson player you sure sound like an idiot right now.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-Conference [406]
TigerPulse: 47%
Posts: 693
Joined: 6/3/12
|
So Venables DOESNT have just as many 5* starting on D...
Sep 23, 2012, 11:34 AM
|
|
as the offense does? Your argument is that we ONLY have six 4* and a 5* starting on D. Please enlighten me on how Venables is short of talent on that side of the ball. I understand that stars dont mean everything bc sometimes they can rated wrong, but you cant miss on that many recruits.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1895]
TigerPulse: 74%
Posts: 3258
Joined: 7/24/10
|
Those guys aren't making plays
Sep 23, 2012, 11:38 AM
|
|
Venables can't go out there and play. That is what makes you a good player. You just have to be able to beat the guy in front of you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6095]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13241
Joined: 11/10/00
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-Conference [406]
TigerPulse: 47%
Posts: 693
Joined: 6/3/12
|
I just named one 5* and its Anthony. I didnt count Steward
Sep 23, 2012, 11:45 AM
|
|
bc Im not sure his knee is well enough to really help us right now.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [14090]
TigerPulse: 78%
Posts: 25448
Joined: 7/28/05
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-Conference [406]
TigerPulse: 47%
Posts: 693
Joined: 6/3/12
|
Im using the Rivals rating. Blanks was a high 4* on that
Sep 23, 2012, 11:51 AM
|
|
service. I think he was a 5* on ESPN though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6095]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13241
Joined: 11/10/00
|
freshman and sophomores***
Sep 23, 2012, 11:54 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Trainer [25]
TigerPulse: 99%
Posts: 52
Joined: 1/12/01
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-Conference [406]
TigerPulse: 47%
Posts: 693
Joined: 6/3/12
|
Actually, when they rank the classes after seeing what they
Sep 23, 2012, 12:44 PM
|
|
do in college, ESPN turns out to be the most accurate of the services. I just use Rivals on here bc everyone else seems to.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6937]
TigerPulse: 88%
Posts: 22594
Joined: 5/4/03
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [19576]
TigerPulse: 84%
Posts: 17247
Joined: 7/25/07
|
Re: So Venables DOESNT have just as many 5* starting on D...
Sep 23, 2012, 11:40 AM
[ in reply to So Venables DOESNT have just as many 5* starting on D... ] |
|
Those guys are RS FR, FR and SO!!!!! The experienced guys are not 4 and 5 stars. It takes time. There's a reason you're talking on a message board and not still on the football field.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-Conference [406]
TigerPulse: 47%
Posts: 693
Joined: 6/3/12
|
Four of our 4* are SRs, the other 2 are RS SOs, guys with
Sep 23, 2012, 11:44 AM
|
|
three years of college under their belts. How much experience should they have?
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1895]
TigerPulse: 74%
Posts: 3258
Joined: 7/24/10
|
Recruiting stars don't mean ####***
Sep 23, 2012, 11:46 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-Conference [406]
TigerPulse: 47%
Posts: 693
Joined: 6/3/12
|
In some cases, but you cant miss on that many highly touted
Sep 23, 2012, 11:47 AM
|
|
kids. At some point you have to look at this staff and realize they arent developing these guys at all.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1895]
TigerPulse: 74%
Posts: 3258
Joined: 7/24/10
|
At some point the players have to make plays
Sep 23, 2012, 11:50 AM
|
|
I don't care who is coaching you. If you can't beat the guy in front of you its on you not anybody else.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [19576]
TigerPulse: 84%
Posts: 17247
Joined: 7/25/07
|
Re: In some cases, but you cant miss on that many highly touted
Sep 23, 2012, 11:51 AM
[ in reply to In some cases, but you cant miss on that many highly touted ] |
|
You're blaming development on BV who has been here for 4 freaking games. He has Steele's development to work with. Steele's fundamentals sucked and it is still showing. Give it time. You're being ridiculous.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-Conference [406]
TigerPulse: 47%
Posts: 693
Joined: 6/3/12
|
I blame development on the STAFF. It's Venables job to...
Sep 23, 2012, 11:53 AM
|
|
find a scheme that these guys can run. Venable's is only responsible for the LB play bc thats what he coaches.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [19576]
TigerPulse: 84%
Posts: 17247
Joined: 7/25/07
|
Re: I blame development on the STAFF. It's Venables job to...
Sep 23, 2012, 11:56 AM
|
|
How many times did you see our guys make contact or corner a ball carrier only to get beat? Alllll nightttt longgggg
Thats not scheme. Scheme is working if you have guys gettIng to the ball carrier. If a guy gets beat or doesn't bring them down that's talent and strength issues as well as fundamentals. Not scheme.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-Conference [406]
TigerPulse: 47%
Posts: 693
Joined: 6/3/12
|
In the first half they killed us with sweeps bc of our...
Sep 23, 2012, 12:02 PM
|
|
alignment. In then second half we went with more three man fronts to get a little more speed on the field to stop the sweeps. That allowed them to beat us up inside. On the sweeps, we're NEVER outside to force them back in. NEVER. Thats FB 101. And its no matter who we put on the field. Its the same broken assignments. I find it hard to believe we've got an entire first and second team of guys who just dont listen to what the coach tells them to do. I will agree with you though that we have a ton of guys that cant tackle. But that comes from practicing fundamentals. Doesnt look like theyve done that since HS.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Trainer [25]
TigerPulse: 99%
Posts: 52
Joined: 1/12/01
|
Re: Didnt seem to affect Chad last year when he inhereted...
Sep 23, 2012, 12:32 PM
[ in reply to Re: Didnt seem to affect Chad last year when he inhereted... ] |
|
Agree!!! We have not had a lot of D-talent added. We have a few players playing descent but they do not have that killer instinct. We are playing to safe.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18782]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12815
Joined: 11/30/95
|
|
|
|
|
|
Trainer [25]
TigerPulse: 99%
Posts: 52
Joined: 1/12/01
|
Re: We dont have a defensive tackle on the roster
Sep 23, 2012, 12:55 PM
|
|
I agree. Our D-line has no push to them. I watched the game again this morning and they never get off on the snap.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [53]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [30766]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 34464
Joined: 6/22/03
|
more than likely a combo of the 2***
Sep 23, 2012, 11:19 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-American [554]
TigerPulse: 40%
Posts: 1874
Joined: 10/29/00
|
Re: more than likely a combo of the 2***
Sep 23, 2012, 12:36 PM
|
|
its definitely a combination. i wouldnt say venables has the perfect scheme but player devekopment isnt his fault. at least not yet. there are guys on the clemson defense that have some bad habits and venables hasnt been around long enough to fix all that. a 2 or 3 star with good technique is better than a 4 star with bad technique. all these guts are athletes. there is very little difference in a 2 or 4 star recruit. usually its some measurable like a 40 speed or an inch of height. recruiting stars are not guarentees. steele let the fundamentals get sloppy. i would think venables is spending practice time to correct those things but i dont know. if he isnt, thats his fault. still the players have to be sonewhat accountable for their own development. scheme is not the only problem.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6095]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13241
Joined: 11/10/00
|
and the 3 and outs on offense don't concern you? How does
Sep 23, 2012, 11:21 AM
|
|
the offense get a pass? It was a special teams play and lack of offensive production that turned the game.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [14090]
TigerPulse: 78%
Posts: 25448
Joined: 7/28/05
|
The offense put up 37 points. When you put up 37 points...
Sep 23, 2012, 11:23 AM
|
|
you should win.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6095]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13241
Joined: 11/10/00
|
Our D only gave up 14 points until that kick off return
Sep 23, 2012, 11:27 AM
|
|
in the 3rd quarter. Granted, we were lucky that FSU missed two field goals, but the D wasn't costing us the game until the botched kick off coverage. The 3 or 4 in a row three and outs really cost us.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [14090]
TigerPulse: 78%
Posts: 25448
Joined: 7/28/05
|
The D got lucky that FSU missed out on some wide open...
Sep 23, 2012, 11:37 AM
|
|
passes
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5508]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 5760
Joined: 11/30/98
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-Conference [406]
TigerPulse: 47%
Posts: 693
Joined: 6/3/12
|
The D had given up 21. That kick return came after we...
Sep 23, 2012, 11:39 AM
[ in reply to Our D only gave up 14 points until that kick off return ] |
|
kicked the FG to go back up 31-21. Our offense really did stall. Thats why you build around D bc they have the potential to ALWAYS be consistent. The D was folding before we started going 3 and out. And once we went three and out the first time, the D folded. Its not like it took three 3 and outs in a row before our D got tired and broke. They were already broken. The lack of offense the second half was the turning point of the game, but its still noe xcuse for how bad the D played.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6095]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13241
Joined: 11/10/00
|
and we haven't recruited as well on defense, so how is that
Sep 23, 2012, 11:47 AM
|
|
Venebles fault?
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-Conference [406]
TigerPulse: 47%
Posts: 693
Joined: 6/3/12
|
Like I said, we're 68 in scoring D. So there are 67 schools
Sep 23, 2012, 11:50 AM
|
|
that have out-recruited us on that side of the ball? UAB's one of them. Theyve played USuC and Ohio St and yet theyre still better on D then we are. Kent St, N Texas, W Mich, Kansas, Tulsa... need I go on?
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6095]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13241
Joined: 11/10/00
|
your right... bring back Vic Koenning, I'm sure UNC would
Sep 23, 2012, 12:01 PM
|
|
give him to us for free.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-Conference [406]
TigerPulse: 47%
Posts: 693
Joined: 6/3/12
|
Haha... Vic doesnt call the defensive plays on that team...
Sep 23, 2012, 12:03 PM
|
|
I guess you didnt notice that though before your uneducated shot at Vic.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6095]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13241
Joined: 11/10/00
|
I guess UNC doesn't think he should call the plays either***
Sep 23, 2012, 12:05 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-Conference [406]
TigerPulse: 47%
Posts: 693
Joined: 6/3/12
|
They already has a DC when Vic became available. They asked
Sep 23, 2012, 12:09 PM
|
|
him to come on though so he could instill some of his zone coverage. Go look at how much he improved KSTs D in his first year there, then look at what he did at Ill. He had a top-10 D at Ill!!! Look at what he did here. Im sorry you dont know good coaching when you see it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6095]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13241
Joined: 11/10/00
|
I shouldn't have said anything against Koenning.
Sep 23, 2012, 12:18 PM
|
|
I don't disagree that he is a good coach. I wasn't one of the people on this board calling for his head. I am not calling for Venebles either, it is way to early to judge him.
I simply think the offense should not get a pass for last night. Win as a team, lose as a team. Coaches can only do so much. FSU has out recruitted us nearly every year. I didn't expect to beat them in Tally without being perfect.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-Conference [406]
TigerPulse: 47%
Posts: 693
Joined: 6/3/12
|
Im not complaining about the game, or trying to point...
Sep 23, 2012, 12:49 PM
|
|
fingers at one unit as to why we lost it. Years when we play in Tally and FSU is really good, I can live with not winning the division as long as we beat USuC. But had we been beat 49-0 or won 52-49, the D still played awful and thats what Im pointing out. Last year proved that not having a D will eventually bite you in the butt no matter how good your offense plays. Offenses tend to go into a funk at times, but defense should never. I dont mind that we lost, I just dont like the way that we lost, giving up all those points was just awful.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-Conference [406]
TigerPulse: 47%
Posts: 693
Joined: 6/3/12
|
When we were up 14pts, the D allowed FSU to break a huge run
Sep 23, 2012, 11:27 AM
[ in reply to and the 3 and outs on offense don't concern you? How does ] |
|
and get down to the 10. They cut it to 7. Even though we kicked that 50 yarder to go back up 10, the game had already turned. The offense was brutal after that FG, but its really not fair to expect them to score everytime when we're at the house of top-5 team. When youre to the place where 37pts isnt enough to win, its the Ds fault.
The D was awful ALL game. Remember that they missed two FGs. And another time in the first half they had a false start that stalled their drive. The only reason FSU didnt rack up points in the first half is bc THEY stopped themselves.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6095]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13241
Joined: 11/10/00
|
that was special teams kick off coverage - Not D, that
Sep 23, 2012, 11:30 AM
|
|
allowed them to get to the 10.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [17520]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14120
Joined: 10/24/10
|
What are you smoking? Our Offense would put up 63 on our D
Sep 23, 2012, 11:34 AM
[ in reply to and the 3 and outs on offense don't concern you? How does ] |
|
Nuk would be our best DB if he played both ways. Most of our skill players less Anthony are on Offensive side of ball. And yes Chad is our best coach.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [17520]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14120
Joined: 10/24/10
|
I respectfully disagree ... Brent Venables has proven his
Sep 23, 2012, 11:29 AM
|
|
capability at Oklahoma. He is stuck with mostly deadbeat players and a holdover staff from Dabo and Steele. Still he has accepted full responsibility for our ongoing poor play. Willard and Hawkins/Wright are slow and most DB's are timid, overmatched and afraid to tackle.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6095]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13241
Joined: 11/10/00
|
I believe Willard save a long touchdown run - he looked fast
Sep 23, 2012, 11:32 AM
|
|
to me. He was the only one that was going to catch their RB. We have bigger problems up front and in the secondary.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [17520]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14120
Joined: 10/24/10
|
The RB he ran down weighed 240 !!***
Sep 23, 2012, 11:35 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6095]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13241
Joined: 11/10/00
|
and yet no one but Willard could catch him.***
Sep 23, 2012, 11:44 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [17520]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14120
Joined: 10/24/10
|
You got me there !!***
Sep 23, 2012, 11:52 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1895]
TigerPulse: 74%
Posts: 3258
Joined: 7/24/10
|
I'm sick of hearing people blame the coaching
Sep 23, 2012, 11:36 AM
|
|
Sometimes you just have to take responsibility, line up, and beat the guy in front of you. Coaches can only do so much its not like they're out there teaching those guys the wrong thing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-Conference [427]
TigerPulse: 83%
Posts: 835
Joined: 11/24/09
|
Re: Im sick of hearing people blame our defensive woes on talent
Sep 23, 2012, 11:39 AM
|
|
2005 Defense
Gaines Adams (1st Rounder
Charles Bennett
Cory Groover
Tramaine Bille
Michael Hamlin
Tye Hill (1st Rounder)
Phillip Merling (2nd Rounder)
Darrell Scott
Anthoney Waters
Nick Watkins
Jamal Fudge
A. Clay
This Defense didn't have talent? Those are just off the top of my head. Every single one of those players would start over what we have now with the exception of A.Clay. But he would be better than our second option at MLB (shey). I did like Koening, but he did have quite a bit of talent.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-Conference [406]
TigerPulse: 47%
Posts: 693
Joined: 6/3/12
|
Its called player development. A concept that has slipped
Sep 23, 2012, 11:56 AM
|
|
the defensive staff's mind over the last several years. Now that you cant put on Venables bc he hasnt been here long enough to develop.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Trainer [25]
TigerPulse: 99%
Posts: 52
Joined: 1/12/01
|
Re: Its called player development. A concept that has slipped
Sep 23, 2012, 12:39 PM
|
|
I am amazed at how smart some people are on here, but yet they didn't coach a day of their lives. Give me a break. Our D-line is our biggest problem. We have to do all sorts of stunts and blitz to get in the backfield. That makes the rest of the D have to cover more field. We need D-tackles and D-ends!!!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recruit [95]
TigerPulse: 89%
Posts: 346
Joined: 9/23/10
|
Re: Im sick of hearing people blame our defensive woes on talent
Sep 23, 2012, 11:56 AM
|
|
I think a big part is coaching, the guys miss to many tackles, but I also think there was a big talent difference. I can't really remember the 05 team but I do know that there was a lot of nfl talent on those teams , Justin miller Ty hill chris Clemons etc. I just don't see that type of talent anywhere on the d. And it would be great if they could sit back and just run zone, problem is with 0 pass rush and db coverage issues it's a lose lose situation . My 2 cents
|
|
|
|
|
|
Addict [449]
TigerPulse: 44%
Posts: 1074
Joined: 7/25/12
|
Agree, we have too much talent to be this bad.....***
Sep 23, 2012, 11:58 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [58375]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 46311
Joined: 4/23/00
|
Well, that's what it is. Your last sentence speaks volumes
Sep 23, 2012, 11:59 AM
|
|
and sums it up pretty well: "He needs to find something that these players can do right. "
Couldn't agree more - I wish him luck.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Expert [1214]
TigerPulse: 82%
Posts: 2780
Joined: 7/13/01
|
Re: Im sick of hearing people blame our defensive woes on talent
Sep 23, 2012, 12:04 PM
|
|
Exactly like stop the the pass across the middle and the run in between guard and tackle. Football 101.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Scout Team [190]
TigerPulse: 88%
Posts: 281
Joined: 9/19/05
|
Re: Im sick of hearing people blame our defensive woes on talent
Sep 23, 2012, 12:28 PM
|
|
I agree BV needs to find something that the current talent does well, but it isn't from lack of trying.
They went to the 3-4 last night, and it just didn't work. Who knows if it would have been worse if they stayed in their base?
The reality is the 2009 recruiting class is down to 9 seniors. And those 9 aren't really that good. Imagine if we had the typical 20+ seniors, and 3-4 of those extra 11 seniors were good defensive starters that we don't have now. It suddenly becomes a different defensive team (not to mention maybe a starting OL or two).
Unfortunately, we will have to wait until next year.
Go Tigers!
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6101]
TigerPulse: 85%
Posts: 10117
Joined: 11/1/11
|
It's ATTITUDE more than anything
Sep 23, 2012, 12:36 PM
|
|
...if a player gets beat enough he will begin to believe he can't do it. I'm convinced a HUGE part of this is mental with FITNESS, QUICKNESS and POWER playing a big role as well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 61
| visibility 1
|
|
|
50
http://www.cutigers.com/2009/football/virginia/slides/_KWB7614a.jpg
