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CU Medallion [67832]
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I doubt anything happens w CBB this year
Feb 4, 2020, 7:54 AM
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Firing him when finally winning at Chapel Hill would look pretty silly. PLus all those who are so outraged about his performance make it sound like we used to be a Kansas or Duke which what hardly the case.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: I doubt anything happens w CBB this year
Feb 4, 2020, 7:56 AM
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I am sure he has 1 more year.
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All-TigerNet [12874]
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Re: I doubt anything happens w CBB this year
Feb 4, 2020, 9:04 AM
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No doubt...
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CU Medallion [64590]
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If the outcome of one game...
Feb 4, 2020, 9:16 AM
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determines his future as opposed to his entire ten year body of work, we need a new AD as well.
Brownell was a bad hire ten years ago and should have been fired after the 2015 season. The fact that he's still here speaks volumes about the importance and the priority level the university administration places on men's hoops.
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Orange Blooded [2336]
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Re: If the outcome of one game...
Feb 4, 2020, 9:45 AM
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Who you gonna get to replace him?
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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A blind squirrel.
Feb 4, 2020, 9:49 AM
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get the same results and pay them much less.
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CU Medallion [64590]
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That depends...
Feb 4, 2020, 9:50 AM
[ in reply to Re: If the outcome of one game... ] |
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on how much money the university is prepared to spend.
In years past, the approach has been to establish a budget and then find someone who will accept the job for what Clemson is willing to pay rather than identifying the absolute best possible candidate available and then paying whatever it takes to get them here.
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110%er [6592]
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Ding Ding, Ive always said unless we open up the check book
Feb 4, 2020, 10:01 AM
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we should just keep Brownell. If we arent willing to go after the best candidate and be prepared to pay whatever it takes then we might as well keep Brad. He is definitely a bargain for the price and we know what we have. Although there are many up and comers we may can go after they would all be a gamble of sorts.
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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Brownell is the 6th highest paid coach in the ACC and
Feb 4, 2020, 10:32 AM
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29th in the country.
Is that really a bargain?
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All-In [27366]
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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To say that Brad was a bad hire 10 years ago is revisionist
Feb 4, 2020, 12:47 PM
[ in reply to If the outcome of one game... ] |
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history. He was a great hire 10 years ago who had success at UNCW and Wright State. Brad accounts for 1/3 of all of Wright State's NCAA tournament appearances and 50% of their Horizon League championships. At UNCW Brad accounts for 30% of their NCAA tournament appearances and conference championships. When he was hired at Clemson the coaches he coached against, including Brad Stevens, all raved about Brad and called it a homerun hire for Clemson. The decision was made to move away from OP's style and Brad was certainly the antithesis of OP. He was a tremendous hire 10 years ago.
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CU Medallion [64590]
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There's nothing revisionist about it....
Feb 4, 2020, 1:54 PM
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I said ten years ago when he was hired, that he was a bad hire.
He was only marginally successful at two lower-tier programs.
Absolutely nothing has happened to change my perspective.
Nothin about him was a homerun hire IMO.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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It's ignorant to say he was only marginally successful at
Feb 4, 2020, 2:20 PM
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Wright State. In 19 seasons of playing D1 basketball before Brad was hired as their coach they only had 2 seasons where they won 20 or more games, the most recent had been the 1992-1993 season. Brad won 20 or more games every year he was there. He won their first ever conference championship and made it to their 2nd ever NCAA tournament. Wright State was 13-15 the year before Brad was hired. His first year he went 23-10.
He inherited a better situation at UNCW following Jerry Wainwright, but that program had only made it to 2 NCAA Tournaments before Brad was hired. Brad took them to 2 NCAA Tournaments in 4 years.
He was far more than marginally successful at those two schools.
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CU Medallion [64590]
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He was at UNC Wilmington for four seasons...
Feb 4, 2020, 2:38 PM
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He won his first championship with a team he inherited from the previous coach. He followed that up with a 7th place finish, a 2nd place finish and a 1st place finish.
He was at Wright State four years again winning a conference championship with players he inherited from the previous coach. He followed that up with two third place finishes and a 3nd place finish.
Brad has coached five teams to an NCAA Tournament appearance three of which were with players he inherited from a previous staff.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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Are you being dense on purpose?
Feb 4, 2020, 3:18 PM
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Yes, in CBB's first year at Wright State, he made it to the NCAA Tournament. That was the 2006-2007 season. His immediate predecessor who was there for just 3 years:
2003-2004: 14-14 2004-2005: 15-15 2005-2006: 13-15
That cannot be compared to him making the tournament his first year at Clemson after OP made it 3 years in a row. Yes he inherited a team, but it was a team who hadn't had a winning record. He took that 13-15 team and went 23-10 his first year and two of his top 3 scorers were freshmen.
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Orange Blooded [2457]
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Re: I doubt anything happens w CBB this year
Feb 4, 2020, 9:17 AM
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We’re not Kansas nor Duke, but Brownell has only had us ranked in 1 of his 10 seasons. Purnell had us in the top 25 at some point in his last 4 seasons. It’s evident we’ve had a huge drop off and let teams we used to be better than like FSU blow past us.
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Commissioner [963]
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Re: I doubt anything happens w CBB this year
Feb 4, 2020, 9:26 AM
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We have been ranked in two of Brownell's seasons. We were ranked in both 2017-18 and 2018-19.
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Orange Blooded [2457]
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Re: I doubt anything happens w CBB this year
Feb 4, 2020, 9:35 AM
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I stand corrected. I forgot we started last year ranked, but were out of the polls before December. Thank you
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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CU Medallion [64590]
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Commissioner [963]
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Re: So in your view, 2 out of 10 ain't bad?***
Feb 4, 2020, 11:05 AM
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Did I say that?
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110%er [7026]
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Winning in Chapel Hill is cool and all.
Feb 4, 2020, 9:23 AM
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Be better if it weren't the worst UNC team in a decade though.
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Orange Blooded [4854]
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Re: I doubt anything happens w CBB this year
Feb 4, 2020, 9:28 AM
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Nothing was going to happen to him before that win at UNC. All these people concentrating on the first 6 years of Brownell's tenure need to focus in a different manner. It is more about what he has been building the past 3/4 years (includes this year's recruiting class and our Sweet 16). It is obvious that he was not going to get blasted for this season. Everything is set at this point and those wins solidify things more.
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CU Medallion [64590]
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So he basically gets a pass for his first seven years...
Feb 4, 2020, 9:34 AM
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and the teams performance on which his evaluation is based only goes back to the 2017/18 season?
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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Re: So he basically gets a pass for his first seven years...
Feb 4, 2020, 9:44 AM
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In my opinion referencing Brownell's first few years at Clemson is not much different than people trying to claim he is an NCAA tournament coach because he took Wilmington and Wright St to multiple tournaments.
I think in the eyes of administration, Brownell's clock started when the team returned to Littlejohn.
A Sweet 16 bought him some time and the improved recruiting for last year's class and the incoming class are slightly improved from where it was prior to that.
Also, Clemson administration greatly values the program culture and Brownell has players who are staying out of trouble and graduating.
Like it or not, that is a huge factor in keeping Brownell as the coach of one of Clemson's secondary sports.
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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Two sports produce revenue at Clemson.
Feb 4, 2020, 9:47 AM
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One of them is vastly under performing in that role.
We are leaving millions on the table.
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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Re: Two sports produce revenue at Clemson.
Feb 4, 2020, 9:59 AM
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So your estimation is that with a higher paid coach, Clemson basketball would win more and produce more money for the athletic department.
The initial change would be a hit to the athletic department budget because no additional revenue would come in while paying a buyout and paying a new coach more money.
How long would it take to recover the lost money from the change?
Just because Brownell winning would make a little more money doesn't mean a change in coach would result in an uptick in profit overall.
Also if the next coach has similar results, then the lost income won't be recovered at any point.
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110%er [6592]
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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Re: his buyout is only $425,000 and less than that after 4/30/20
Feb 4, 2020, 10:46 AM
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We also have to pay more to the next coaching staff which would be a bigger annual budget hit.
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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What if the next coach has charisma and coaching ability
Feb 4, 2020, 10:09 AM
[ in reply to Re: Two sports produce revenue at Clemson. ] |
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and can sell players and fans on his vision for the program and we start winning consistently and fans start returning and enthusiasm for Clemson basketball brings increased attention to the university we have more money to invest in the program?
Brad Brownell is NOT the best we can do. Even a blind squirrel could find a flash of success over 11 years with the outstanding success of our football program and the improvement in our facilities.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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Re: What if the next coach has charisma and coaching ability
Feb 4, 2020, 10:49 AM
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I agree that we should demand to win more games.
I don't agree that basketball coaches get fired over lost revenue for being average.
My only argument is that it's not a financial decision as some are making it.
It should be 100% about whether or not the team is winning enough for him to stay.
Firing a coach because you HOPE the next coach will be more exciting for fans to get them to spend more money is not a wise thing.
Winning is what we need.
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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Straw man
Feb 4, 2020, 1:20 PM
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You're busy today building straw men.
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Orange Blooded [4095]
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Re: What if the next coach has charisma and coaching ability
Feb 4, 2020, 12:47 PM
[ in reply to What if the next coach has charisma and coaching ability ] |
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and then the dude leaves.
Because that is what happens.
In fact, I think it's more likely that Brownell leaves for another job than that he is fired at this point.
Other places know that Brad can coach and runs a clean program. If it's a better place for recruiting, then he is an attractive candidate for a mid-tier big 10 team.
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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Wonder why nobody has come after him in 11 years?
Feb 4, 2020, 1:20 PM
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Do they not know what you know?
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Orange Blooded [2457]
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Re: Two sports produce revenue at Clemson.
Feb 4, 2020, 10:13 AM
[ in reply to Re: Two sports produce revenue at Clemson. ] |
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Buzz Williams was a proven winner at Marquette. Via Tech stumbled into him and he had an instant impact. If you buy a good coach, you will most likely get good results. The problem is we have Brownell a $5 mil buy out for winning 3 NIT games.
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Commissioner [963]
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Re: Two sports produce revenue at Clemson.
Feb 4, 2020, 10:18 AM
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His buyout after this season is $425,000.
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Orange Blooded [2457]
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Re: Two sports produce revenue at Clemson.
Feb 4, 2020, 10:31 AM
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I meant gave not have referring to year 4 where we handcuffed ourselves to nothing and having to accept the excuse of KJ left us early. The buyout then prevented us from being proactive for years when good coaches were available.
Realistically we could probably argue it down more given the NCAA non-compliance (Blossomgame and Steve Smith) under his watch. Even without, $850k is a drop in the bucket for our AD, especially now.
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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Re: Two sports produce revenue at Clemson.
Feb 4, 2020, 10:52 AM
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You are not going to have any success arguing non-compliance with Brownell.
One of the huge attractions of keeping Brownell for DRad is that Brownell would rather lose doing it the right way than flirt with the grey areas.
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Orange Blooded [2457]
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Re: Two sports produce revenue at Clemson.
Feb 4, 2020, 11:27 AM
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Maybe, maybe not. We had a player receive money from an agent via Venmo - which might as well have been a check with a memo of “cash advance from agent” written on it.
We also had a coach on wiretaps trying to secure funding for a player. Even if we ignore that as a coach blowing smoke, Smith admitted to contacting a recruit consistently during a dead period. Non-compliance falls back on the coach, regardless of his knowledge - which you would think he’d know his assistant disappeared for hours to drive to and from Spartanburg.
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Orange Blooded [4854]
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Commissioner [963]
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Re: So he basically gets a pass for his first seven years...
Feb 4, 2020, 9:52 AM
[ in reply to So he basically gets a pass for his first seven years... ] |
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I don't think he should get a complete pass for the first 6-7 years of his tenure, but I certainly think you should look at things much differently starting with the 2016-17 season, which was the first year back in (a newly renovated) Littlejohn Coliseum. Since then, administration has stepped up support for basketball in a way it hadn't before (support staff positions created for guys like Terrell McIntyre as an example) to enhance the program. It is undeniable that recruiting has seen a significant uptick since the opening of the new facility and addition of the additional staff, which is why, in my opinion, he was always going to see through this year, regardless of the results on the floor.
Representation of the United States and winning the gold medal at the World University Games, as much as everyone wants to make fun of it (Purdue was the representative in 2017 and won the silver medal...only to go on to be a Top 10 ranked team later that year and go to the Sweet 16 in the NCAA Tournament. Kansas was the representative in 2015 and won the gold medal, needing OT to do it...and they went on to be a Top 3 ranked team nearly the entire year and go to the Elite 8 in the NCAA Tournament), was huge for him as well. Competition hasn't exactly been weak at that tournament in the past, as proven by the results of the two previous collegiate teams to represent the USA.
Aside from my opinion that we will be VERY good next year, I think that (next year) was always guaranteed for him, and as others have mentioned in other threads on this board, Clemson basketball won't be a destination job for a young coach...it will be a stepping stone. To me, it benefits the program to keep someone who is clearly devoted to Clemson and wants to be here long-term. In my opinion, those kinds of coaches will be difficult to find without increasing the salary for our head coach by at least 75% from where it's at now.
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Orange Blooded [4854]
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Re: So he basically gets a pass for his first seven years...
Feb 4, 2020, 10:41 AM
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Agree and the fight in his players can be seen. Even when they were not the most talented - they gave all they had. He developed those that stuck around. Speaking of sticking around; looks like more guys Clemson Basketball players are "loving their school" these days and I have seen nothing but support and love for Brownell, from his players. It shows!
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Orange Blooded [4095]
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Re: So he basically gets a pass for his first seven years...
Feb 4, 2020, 12:52 PM
[ in reply to Re: So he basically gets a pass for his first seven years... ] |
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See, I don't think we are going to be very good next year.
I think we will start the season slow because we do every year.
We'll have losses in November and December that make us an NCAA bubble team at best.
The players we want to play even better next year than this year won't make that leap. They will have some great games and some games where they disappear or try really hard but can't make shots.
Having said that, if he can get us regular top half of the ACC finishes and regular NCAA appearances, then I say keep him. I really hope we are trending that way.
Message was edited by: castaway®
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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Brownell perfectly represents the level of commitment to
Feb 4, 2020, 9:34 AM
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basketball by our administration. I have adjusted my expectations accordingly and, after 50+ years of being an avid Clemson basketball fan who absolutely HAD to watch every game, no longer consider Clemson basketball game viewing as a necessary part of my week.
How long can you beat your head against that wall before your realize how futile it is?
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110%er [6592]
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agree, no way he gets canned this year
Feb 4, 2020, 9:47 AM
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He has done a decent job with the youth and injuries this team had, but it would also look silly to fire him after choosing to keep him after last year. When it was decided to keep him after last year, I, at least, felt like that was signaling at least a 2 yr guarantee considering everyone knew this year would be tough based on all the youth. It would look pretty silly to fire him for not meeting expectations this year after you chose to keep him last year. As long as we can get healthy and we dont have transfers, with the recruits coming in I feel next yr will be his make or break yr. I would have zero problem firing him next year if he doesnt produce a NCAA bid.
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110%er [7159]
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Middle of the pack in the ACC is who Clemson is at its best
Feb 4, 2020, 10:48 AM
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WE've had like 2 or 3 years where we were upper echelon in the ACC. That is like 2% of our history. Mid pack is good/above average for us. What other coach is going to improve that? By what? One or two wins and we'll end up spending a crap ton more money for it?
If Brownell can't keep us in that 6-10 range and consistently falling out of that range to the 11-15 range then it will be time. But if we're in 6-10 then i don't know what else you're expecting. I think people just like to complain. This is a great season in terms of clemson basketball history. We're competing in games and with (IMO) a team that doesn't have all the tools. So... of course he retains his job.
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