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CU Medallion [61826]
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The argument that it isn't Jack who strikes out, can't pitch
May 6, 2015, 8:58 AM
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makes the errors, etc. is ridiculous!!
He is head coach for a reason. He is responsible for recruiting the players, he is responsible for hiring the asst. coaches who make the players better, he is responsible for encouraging the players with a desire to win, he is responsible for ensuring the fundamentals are sharpened not regressing, etc.
It is time for a change. This is NOT a one-year trend. This has continued for 10+ years with an anomaly in 2010. Wake up!!
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All-In [29036]
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That is not, in itself, a ridiculous argument,
May 6, 2015, 9:18 AM
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It's just one that seemingly no longer matters.
In any single at-bat or play in the field it is typically unfair to blame the outcome on the coach (unless there is some strategic decision that influenced that single play).
However, when those single moments pile into innings, which pile into games, which then pile into seasons then trends become evident. I don't ever, by rule, call for a coach's head for anything other than actions off the field, so I'll refrain form that now as well. But it is clear to me that Jack has lost the confidence of this team, the fans, and presumably the admin. There is no reason to make that personal (you didn't but others have). No reason to take personal shots at the man. But plenty of reason to think it's time for a change.
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CU Medallion [61826]
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Good response.
May 6, 2015, 9:20 AM
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I am not advocating firing Jack. Retiring is the best and most dignified solution.
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Trainer [35]
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Re: The argument that it isn't Jack who strikes out, can't pitch
May 6, 2015, 9:27 AM
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I had the same opinion as you until I read an article outlining some of the reasons that it is difficult for Clemson to compete the last five years. The basis is that schools like Virginia, UNC, and Vanderbilt have found a loophole in the current system that allows them to use their significant endowment funds to provide money to recruits over and above the allowable 11.2 scholarships that the athletic foundations can provided. Further, the NCAA changed the rule so that schools had to split the athletic scholarships in baseball evenly among all players rather than allow the coach to use them as he sees fit. To illustrate the significant difference in Clemson and these other schools endowment: Clemson's is $400 million, Virginia's is over 5 billion, UNC's is almost 3 billion and Vanderbilt's is nearly 5 billion. If you think about it these three programs have become powerhouses over the last 5 years and Vandy won the NC last year. They can use this endowment to essentially provide full scholarships for every player! Until they place everyone on a level athletic playing field and remove this loophole Clemson will not be able to compete and it wont matter who the coach is. Why would a top recruit come to Clemson for a partial scholy when they could go to Vandy, UNC or Virginia for a full scholly? They rarely will. Not to mention our facilities are not top of the line either. BTW, South Carolina will struggle now too. They are in the same boat. Clemson is currently campaigning to raise its endowment by 1 billion but that will take some time so we will not see the reward from this for a while. This type of disadvantage is why Dabo is speaking out against the COA as it is currently setup. Clemson will calculate the cost of attendance in a way that they feel is as correct as possible but that doesn't mean that Auburn will. Are you really going to tell be the cost of attendance at Auburn is higher than at a private school like Southern Cal. in Los Angeles? Don't think so. Just food for thought.
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Orange Blooded [3573]
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Its not only that, its the state scholarships too
May 6, 2015, 9:41 AM
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we used to be able to go in and get the cream of the crop out of Atlanta. Now we are about 3rd or 4th behind Kennsesaw State and Georgia Southern. They can get the HOPE Scholarship and stay in-state, and play on good baseball teams. (This is also the reason that its an absolute joke that UGA isn't one of the top teams year in and year out)
This trend really started in the early 2000s, but our athletic department was slow to catch on (and UGA was in such disarray). KSU and GSU have taken advantage of it and its killed us since about 2010 on.
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Orange Blooded [3788]
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Schools don't have to split scholarships evenly
May 6, 2015, 9:46 AM
[ in reply to Re: The argument that it isn't Jack who strikes out, can't pitch ] |
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No more than 27 players can receive a scholarship and each player on scholarship has to get at least a 25% ride.
If each of those players only got 25%, that would only be 6.75 of the 11.7 scholarships available, so clearly scholarship amounts are not distributed evenly.
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Orange Blooded [3573]
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Your missing the point of his post
May 6, 2015, 9:53 AM
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its not that scholarships are split evenly, its that other schools use other scholarship resources to pay the difference between what the player gets out of his baseball scholarship and the total tuition costs.
So if it costs 10k per year to go to a school. The player might get 25% baseball scholarship. That means that his family has to come up with $7500/year. At Clemson that comes out of the family. At Vandy that can come out of some other academic or general student scholarship. Its a huge difference.
And I've heard conflicting reports on how Clemson treats out of state students. The 2 out of state folks I know that played baseball on scholarship were in different time frames. 1 of them said that they were treated as "in-state" and the other was treated as "out of state" and that the scholarship still meant they were paying more than full in-state tuition.
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Orange Blooded [3788]
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I understand the point of the post pretty clearly
May 6, 2015, 10:05 AM
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I was just pointing out the portion that was incorrect.
I completely agree that Clemson needs to do more on the scholarship front, but Clemson still pulls in top 25 recruiting classes on a yearly basis. Many of those players are under-performing compared to their potential, and that's a coaching issue.
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Orange Blooded [3573]
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We aren't bringing in the talent
May 6, 2015, 11:53 AM
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Its been several years since we've had a post-MLB draft class ranking in the top 30. Last 2 years we didn't even crack the top 25 with just the signees much less when we lost Meadows and DeCarr to MLB.
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Orange Blooded [3788]
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I thought we finished top 25 with Okey's class***
May 6, 2015, 1:10 PM
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Orange Blooded [3573]
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Don't think so
May 6, 2015, 1:27 PM
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http://www.perfectgame.org/Rankings/Recruiting/Rankings.aspx
This has us at 23 for that class but it includes Austin Meadows. Looks like we might have stayed in the top 25 in 2012. We were at 7 and most of that class came to school. Don't remember any major hits that would have caused us to drop 18-23 spots.
These are the pre-draft Perfect Game rankings
2011 - 23
2012 - 7
2013 - 23
2014 - 28
2015 - 11
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Orange Blooded [3788]
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That's the same list I looked at
May 6, 2015, 2:07 PM
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completely glossed over Meadows somehow.
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All-Pro [682]
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Re: The argument that it isn't Jack who strikes out, can't pitch
May 6, 2015, 9:55 AM
[ in reply to Re: The argument that it isn't Jack who strikes out, can't pitch ] |
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This may explain some of the issues, but doesn't change the fact that Clemson baseball has been mediocre for 8 to 10 years and is getting worse. Clemson baseball is worse than other ACC schools besides those just mentioned. There is more than enough talent still available for Clemson to be better. The coaching and team effort and talent is just not there. And, that falls on the head coach and AD. Changes needs to happen.
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110%er [5436]
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Re: The argument that it isn't Jack who strikes out, can't pitch
May 6, 2015, 1:22 PM
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Yes it does explain it, You refuse to except it and the new coach will have the same problem until the admin. get's off their butt and give baseball some money.
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Hall of Famer [21848]
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Re: The argument that it isn't Jack who strikes out, can't pitch
May 6, 2015, 1:24 PM
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accept** hth
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110%er [5436]
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Re: The argument that it isn't Jack who strikes out, can't pitch
May 6, 2015, 1:25 PM
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Accept !!! My bad
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CU Medallion [61826]
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110%er [5436]
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Re: Just curious ... do you support IPTAY and/or buy
May 6, 2015, 1:49 PM
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I can't make it to many baseball games but I'm at every home football game. Iptay
You?
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CU Medallion [61826]
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Both for me. Baseball season tickets for 10 years.
May 6, 2015, 1:59 PM
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I have personally witnessed the downward slide - live and in-person.
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CU Medallion [61826]
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Legend [17626]
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Orange Blooded [3573]
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That theory goes up to the Athletic Directors too
May 6, 2015, 9:33 AM
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Its their job to hire good coaches, provide the resources for teams to excel etc. Have we seen that out of DRad?
Honestly the current state of the baseball program is as much the "Legacy of Terry Don" as it is Jack. We got rid of one of those, we will get rid of the other in about 18 days. Will we make some of the other fundamental changes needed in the athletic department to right the ship?
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110%er [5436]
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Re: That theory goes up to the Athletic Directors too
May 6, 2015, 1:25 PM
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And the new coach will face the same problems
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Orange Blooded [4098]
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Re: The argument that it isn't Jack who strikes out, can't pitch
May 6, 2015, 10:02 AM
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SO WHO RECRUITED THESE GUYS!!!!!!!!!
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110%er [5436]
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Re: The argument that it isn't Jack who strikes out, can't pitch
May 6, 2015, 1:26 PM
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Level playing field would bring in better players but some don't want to talk about that
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Legend [19352]
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Re: The argument that it isn't Jack who strikes out, can't pitch
May 6, 2015, 1:30 PM
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holy crap you are still here defending this...
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110%er [5436]
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Re: The argument that it isn't Jack who strikes out, can't pitch
May 6, 2015, 1:32 PM
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Defending what? The truth? Or like you like to say a Fact?
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CU Medallion [61826]
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THE FACT is the baseball program is out of control
May 6, 2015, 1:33 PM
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in a bad way. The fact that you think JL is the savior is just unbearable.
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110%er [5436]
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Re: THE FACT is the baseball program is out of control
May 6, 2015, 1:41 PM
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I don't I just pull for Clemson whoever the coach is. I said it was a dumpster fire.
If the admin fires him today then I'll pull for the next guy.
Got It????
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Hall of Famer [21848]
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Re: THE FACT is the baseball program is out of control
May 6, 2015, 1:44 PM
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"I don't I just pull for Clemson whoever the coach is."
Yet you go out of your way to take any and all blame away from jack hof and blame solely Clemson Players.
He didn't give up those homeruns. He didn't strike out with bases loaded. He didn't get caught stealing. He didn't.....
It's laughable.
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Legend [19352]
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Re: THE FACT is the baseball program is out of control
May 6, 2015, 1:47 PM
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armsb would rather trash Clemson players who chose to be here than the man who is paid to be here...
smh
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110%er [5436]
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Re: THE FACT is the baseball program is out of control
May 6, 2015, 1:57 PM
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What player have I ever trashed to lying A$$ moron
LINK??????? B!cth
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Legend [19352]
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Re: THE FACT is the baseball program is out of control
May 6, 2015, 2:17 PM
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You should refrain from calling others morons.
Link was provided below.
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110%er [5436]
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Re: THE FACT is the baseball program is out of control
May 6, 2015, 1:54 PM
[ in reply to Re: THE FACT is the baseball program is out of control ] |
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No not true I just can't stand for some of our fans to scream hate at the coach.
I have no ties to Jack. He's a Clemson man and i'll support him until theirs another coach.
I do think it's time for a change but it does no one any good to come here and scream like children and act like you know more than the admin. or the coaches
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Hall of Famer [21848]
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Re: THE FACT is the baseball program is out of control
May 6, 2015, 1:56 PM
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So you'd rather be negative towards the players(Clemson Students). Makes sense.....
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110%er [5436]
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Re: THE FACT is the baseball program is out of control
May 6, 2015, 1:57 PM
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What players????? LINK???? I PULL FOR CLEMSON
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Hall of Famer [21848]
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110%er [5436]
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Re: THE FACT is the baseball program is out of control
May 6, 2015, 2:03 PM
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I have never called out a player. I bet we could go back to football and see you call out Cole?
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Legend [19352]
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Hall of Famer [21848]
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Re: THE FACT is the baseball program is out of control
May 6, 2015, 2:06 PM
[ in reply to Re: THE FACT is the baseball program is out of control ] |
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LOL, so that wasn't deflecting blame from jack/coaches and putting it on the players? You didn't have to respond, yet you chose to defend jack/coaches while throwing the blame on the players.
As for your CS statement...I don't think that happened on the boards, but I can guarantee I was thinking it.
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110%er [5436]
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Re: THE FACT is the baseball program is out of control
May 6, 2015, 2:10 PM
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You are really reaching now LOL if that's all you got LOL try again.
Hey that put me in a better mood
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Hall of Famer [21848]
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Re: THE FACT is the baseball program is out of control
May 6, 2015, 2:11 PM
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care to explain what you meant by those statement then?
BTW, you didn't deny it in your last response...HTH
It's also the typical response by someone who was called out and proven wrong.
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110%er [5436]
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Re: THE FACT is the baseball program is out of control
May 6, 2015, 2:21 PM
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Players and Coaches all make mistakes. Coaches teach the best they can but if a player makes a mistake BIG whoop it's part of the game. You can't blame a coach if the other team hit's a pitch out of jellystone LOL If you take that as throwing the kids under the bus then I can't help you.
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Hall of Famer [21848]
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Re: THE FACT is the baseball program is out of control
May 6, 2015, 2:23 PM
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The point is.....you went out of your way to reply and attempt to take blame away from Jack/the coaches. In doing that you backhandedly called out some of our players....
It's quite simple...
Also, where did I use the phrase "throwing the kids under the bus"?? Hint: I didn't.
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110%er [5436]
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Re: THE FACT is the baseball program is out of control
May 7, 2015, 10:12 AM
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I didn't in anyway call out a player !
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Hall of Famer [21848]
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Re: THE FACT is the baseball program is out of control
May 7, 2015, 10:18 AM
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LOL, you didn't call out the pitcher?
You are truly dense.....Again, you went out of your way to post in a way as to defend jack/the coaches by pointing out that they didn't give up the homeruns or throw the ball.
the other person was defending the talent(our players/students)and took a shot at the coaches. You decided to instead defend the coaches over the players.
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Legend [19352]
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Re: THE FACT is the baseball program is out of control
May 6, 2015, 1:43 PM
[ in reply to THE FACT is the baseball program is out of control ] |
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it is flat out amazing how anyone can still defend this program... Every way you look at the program shows it in a decline.
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Legend [19352]
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Re: The argument that it isn't Jack who strikes out, can't pitch
May 6, 2015, 1:36 PM
[ in reply to Re: The argument that it isn't Jack who strikes out, can't pitch ] |
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lol the truth is Jack is not a great coach... I guess Wofford has all these amazing advantages over us as well.
Sorry you cant see this. I guess you are just going down with the ship. Sad you put a man above the University.
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110%er [5436]
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Re: The argument that it isn't Jack who strikes out, can't pitch
May 6, 2015, 1:44 PM
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Nope I think the team is done but if you can't see advantages others have over us then you don't want to see it
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Legend [19352]
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Re: The argument that it isn't Jack who strikes out, can't pitch
May 6, 2015, 1:46 PM
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They exist but they are simply an excuse.
They have not existed for 20 years.
Also the excuse isnt really backed up we still bring in good talent per recruiting rankings.
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110%er [5436]
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Re: The argument that it isn't Jack who strikes out, can't pitch
May 6, 2015, 1:55 PM
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You are so FOS your breath stinks. I'll ask one more time but you will not answer.
Why do you dislike Jack so much???
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Legend [19352]
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Re: The argument that it isn't Jack who strikes out, can't pitch
May 6, 2015, 2:03 PM
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So what you are saying is you have no answer....
Thanks for clearing that up.
Also I dont dislike Jack that is false. I dont know Coach Leggett to dislike him. What I do dislike is poor baseball. Sorry you can not separate the two.
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110%er [5436]
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Re: The argument that it isn't Jack who strikes out, can't pitch
May 6, 2015, 2:05 PM
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You don't win like Jack has done and not be a GREAT coach. I think his time has come to an end.
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Legend [19352]
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Re: The argument that it isn't Jack who strikes out, can't pitch
May 6, 2015, 2:07 PM
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Elite coaches win Championships.
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110%er [5436]
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Re: The argument that it isn't Jack who strikes out, can't pitch
May 6, 2015, 2:11 PM
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He has but want accept that. You think FSU has a great program? I do but Martin has been the CWS more than any team in the country and has NEVER won #### out there.
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Legend [19352]
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Re: The argument that it isn't Jack who strikes out, can't pitch
May 6, 2015, 2:20 PM
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Martin Championships...
ACC Regular Season- 1996, 1998, 1999, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2007, 2009, 2012
ACC Tournament - 995, 1997, 2002, 2004, 2010
Leggett Championships
ACC Regular Season- 1994, 1995, 2006
ACC Tournament - 1994, 2006
Not much of a comparison there....
Also it is "won't" you should learn basic English before calling others a moron.
Message was edited by: clemtiger117®
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110%er [5436]
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Re: This is just since 2004 and notice it does say Champions
May 6, 2015, 2:25 PM
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2004 Jack Leggett 39–26 14–10 T–4th NCAA Athens Regional
2005 Jack Leggett 43–23 21–9 2nd NCAA Clemson Regional Champions
NCAA Waco Super Regional
2006 Jack Leggett 53–16 24–6 1st, Atlantic NCAA Clemson Regional & Super Regional Champions
College World Series Participant
2007 Jack Leggett 41–23 18–12 2nd, Atlantic NCAA Myrtle Beach Regional Champions
NCAA Starkville Super Regional
2008 Jack Leggett 31–27–1 11–18–1 4th, Atlantic
2009 Jack Leggett 44–22 19–11 2nd, Atlantic NCAA Clemson Regional Champions
NCAA Tempe Super Regional
2010 Jack Leggett 45–25 18–12 1st, Atlantic NCAA Auburn Regional Champions
NCAA Clemson Super Regional Champions
College World Series Participant
This is from Clemson's on site
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Legend [19352]
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Re: This is just since 2004 and notice it does say Champions
May 6, 2015, 2:29 PM
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Tournaments only have one champion not 25.
Also it is "own" once again you should refrain from calling anyone a moron.
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Hall of Famer [21848]
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Legend [19352]
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Re: This is just since 2004 and notice it does say Champions
May 6, 2015, 2:39 PM
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All-TigerNet [10402]
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Re: This is just since 2004 and notice it does say Champions
May 6, 2015, 2:43 PM
[ in reply to Re: This is just since 2004 and notice it does say Champions ] |
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In 2006 Jack was the main reason why Clemson didn't win the CWS. Heck all the so called experts gave us the championship before the CWS even started. If you can't coach that team to a Championship it will never happen.
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All-TigerNet [10402]
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Re: This is just since 2004 and notice it does say Champions
May 6, 2015, 2:47 PM
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He should have been fired after the 2010 season even after a CWS appearance. It was clear even that season , that Clemson baseball was not the same. Back then Jack had good players and could do nothing with them.
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All-TigerNet [14470]
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Re: This is just since 2004 and notice it does say Champions
May 6, 2015, 2:50 PM
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please find me one coach that has ever been fired after a trip to omaha. please, please. a more moronic statement has never been made.
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Legend [19352]
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Re: This is just since 2004 and notice it does say Champions
May 6, 2015, 3:03 PM
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I agree with deroberts here.
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All-TigerNet [10402]
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Re: This is just since 2004 and notice it does say Champions
May 6, 2015, 4:17 PM
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After getting sent home by the Coots for the second time in as many appearances from the CWS. #### yea he should have been fired. I think the Coots beat us 4 times in a row at the CWS.
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Orange Blooded [3573]
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We bring in low to mid-30s talent
May 6, 2015, 1:58 PM
[ in reply to Re: The argument that it isn't Jack who strikes out, can't pitch ] |
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Thats exceedingly average and thats exactly what we are getting on the field.
Jack should have brought up some of these issues years ago. But the hubris of Jack and TDP thought that we could just do things as usual and it could continue to "feed the monster." Thats been proven false. Now instead of being issues to fix, they are excuses for Jack. Jack will rightly be gone after this season. But don't think that just because we bring in some new coaching talent that players will just flock to Clemson. There are fundamental problems that are supposedly being fixed, but at a very slow pace.
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110%er [5436]
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Re: We bring in low to mid-30s talent
May 6, 2015, 2:07 PM
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You are correct. We did the samething in football after Danny and it took us years to get it back.
I've heard Jack talk about the problems for the last 5 or 6 years but it falls on deaf ears.
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110%er [5436]
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Legend [19352]
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Re: The argument that it isn't Jack who strikes out, can't pitch
May 6, 2015, 1:38 PM
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False but I cant say it makes me upset to say I told you so to people like you.
As I said in the past five or so years I would have loved nothing more than for Coach Leggett to prove me wrong. I liked my odds though he was not and has never been an elite coach.
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110%er [5436]
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Re: The argument that it isn't Jack who strikes out, can't pitch
May 6, 2015, 1:43 PM
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Oh that's what your all about anyway. You are the type of person that loves to do that. You'd rather Clemson lose so you could say (I told you so)
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Legend [19352]
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Re: The argument that it isn't Jack who strikes out, can't pitch
May 6, 2015, 1:45 PM
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That is false.
Are you incapable of reading?
I have never said those words on here until now. I only direct them at you.
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110%er [5436]
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Re: The argument that it isn't Jack who strikes out, can't pitch
May 6, 2015, 1:55 PM
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You couldn't say it until now
Message was edited by: armsb®
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Legend [19352]
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Re: The argument that it isn't Jack who strikes out, can't pitch
May 6, 2015, 2:05 PM
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Ive been able to say it for many years....
This year was just the tipping point.
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110%er [5436]
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Re: The argument that it isn't Jack who strikes out, can't pitch
May 6, 2015, 2:25 PM
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2004 Jack Leggett 39–26 14–10 T–4th NCAA Athens Regional
2005 Jack Leggett 43–23 21–9 2nd NCAA Clemson Regional Champions
NCAA Waco Super Regional
2006 Jack Leggett 53–16 24–6 1st, Atlantic NCAA Clemson Regional & Super Regional Champions
College World Series Participant
2007 Jack Leggett 41–23 18–12 2nd, Atlantic NCAA Myrtle Beach Regional Champions
NCAA Starkville Super Regional
2008 Jack Leggett 31–27–1 11–18–1 4th, Atlantic
2009 Jack Leggett 44–22 19–11 2nd, Atlantic NCAA Clemson Regional Champions
NCAA Tempe Super Regional
2010 Jack Leggett 45–25 18–12 1st, Atlantic NCAA Auburn Regional Champions
NCAA Clemson Super Regional Champions
College World Series Participant
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Legend [19352]
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Re: The argument that it isn't Jack who strikes out, can't pitch
May 6, 2015, 2:28 PM
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One Championship in nearly 20 years.
Winning a Regional or Super Regional is not a Championship. A tournament has ONE champions not TWENTY FIVE.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Leggett
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110%er [5436]
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Re: The argument that it isn't Jack who strikes out, can't pitch
May 6, 2015, 2:30 PM
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What does that say above? So if dabo never wins the acc again yet get's us to the final 4 and loses every time you would say he's a loser?
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Legend [19352]
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Re: The argument that it isn't Jack who strikes out, can't pitch
May 6, 2015, 2:34 PM
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Only way he gets us to the final four is to win the ACC so that is pretty much not going to happen.
So you think a Single tournament has 25 champions?
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110%er [5436]
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Re: The argument that it isn't Jack who strikes out, can't pitch
May 7, 2015, 10:05 AM
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man you are dumb
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Legend [19352]
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Re: The argument that it isn't Jack who strikes out, can't pitch
May 7, 2015, 11:38 AM
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You should refrain from calling others dumb with your abuse of the English language on this board.
Great job not answering the question though. Typical of you.
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Rock Defender [58]
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Re: The argument that it isn't Jack who strikes out, can't pitch
May 6, 2015, 8:23 PM
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Agreed! Why can't the people at The Clemson Insider see that fact?
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CU Guru [1400]
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They are tight with the staff
May 7, 2015, 10:35 AM
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and are afraid that if Jack & Co get canned they will not have access to the only thing they really have insider information about.
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